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Stay the course or rebuild now

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Stay the course or rebuild now

Run it back!
2
2%
Make minor tweaks to the roster
12
15%
Keep roster but change coach
1
1%
Keep coach but make major trades
36
44%
Make major trades and change coach
31
38%
 
Total votes: 82

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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#201 » by drsd » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:59 am

Bensational wrote:Fournier + Ross + Bamba

for

Wiggins + #2

Any takers?

Draft:
#2 - ?
#15 - ?

Who do you add to the below roster?

Vuc/Birch
Gordon/Aminu/Clark/(Isaac)
Ennis/Okeke
Wiggins/Iwundu
Fultz/(DJ - likely)


This is an interesting trade for Orlando. I am not sure it gets the job done for a Warriors team set fixed on Gordon (or perhaps Vučević).

But let's say this trade were to happen. Then Orlando could go to Minny with the #2 and the #15 to trade for the #1. That guarantees Edwards for Orlando, and then for the 'Wolves, Ball allows a nice core of staters: Ball, Russel, xxx, Towns, and Bamba.

For Orlando: this starts with an interesting core that emerges from 2021/22:
Fultz, Edward, Gordon, Issac, Vučević, with Okeke. Add to that, perhaps, Ennis, Clark, Carter-Williams, and Birch.

There is a lot to consider on your first trade thought line. But, as I said above, said another way, the Warriors trading for depth with the #2 is a bold move but an unlikely move.


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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#202 » by drsd » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:03 am

Skin wrote:But you got my mind buzzing. Gordon, Ross, 15 for Wiggins, 2... that may do it. Or we may have to move Vuc +15 to get a higher pick that GS would take.

Fultz / Edwards / Wiggins / Isaac / Bamba. Yes please.

Water gently and provide good sunlight. In their prime, this starting 5 could bring us back in contention.


I think this works well for both teams (where Vučević is still over Bamba in the depth chart, but that is a different conversation).

Moving forward, Orlando has Fournier (and Ennis) for a probable yet-another year and then for 2021/22, there is a lot of potential.

My idea of #2 and #15 to Minny for #1 still stands though.
That guarantees Edwards and leads to your eventual vision of: Fultz / Edwards / Wiggins / Isaac / Bamba.
Around 2023/24, that would be a mature starting five that could lead to some noise.


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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#203 » by cedric76 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:53 am

pepe1991 wrote:You guys do realise that in potential Wiggins - Vuc swap, Magic are capped up for years to come with terrible player making $30M a year?

Wiggins $30M, Ross $12,5, Fultz $12 ( + extension ), Aminu $10M, Isaac $8M (+ extension). Gordon $18M, Bamba $6M (+ extension)

That's your team. 7 players, $96M, after extensions over $110M . All eggs in one basket, Anthony Edwards. Who probably won't even be aveliable when Warriors 2020 pick is on the clock to pick :lol:

I didn't even count Okeke and 2020 draft pick, that puts Magic in 9 players , over 100M cap range and with exstensions, being close to luxury tax ...


Issue of young teams is that they
a) don't win much
b) lot of times don't even have high upside

Just because players are not old, that doesn't mean they have star potential nor that they will have some exponentional development.


If you trade for Wiggins, you have to trade AG for an Expiring contract.

This is why i d do AG for culver +Johnson +17
Prediction : weham will draft AARON NESMITH

AG for Johnson+culver+#17
use #17 to gamble on kopusevski (keep him oversee)


**** load of money under the cap for summer 2021

Core of the Future: Fultz, culver, chuma, JI, Mo, Kopusevski and AARON NESMITH
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#204 » by Last Guardian » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:06 pm

Stay the course? What even is the course? There is very little potential here. There isn't enough playmaking and shooting to be a good offensive team. There are too many weak defenders getting big minutes to be a dominant defensive team. I am not seeing what the vision is here to actually get behind continuing what we are doing.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#205 » by j-ragg » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:48 pm

Last Guardian wrote:Stay the course? What even is the course? There is very little potential here. There isn't enough playmaking and shooting to be a good offensive team. There are too many weak defenders getting big minutes to be a dominant defensive team. I am not seeing what the vision is here to actually get behind continuing what we are doing.

The course is the 8th seed/1 win in the first round. Without it our players won't grow into stars.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#206 » by zaymon » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:13 pm

Last Guardian wrote:Stay the course? What even is the course? There is very little potential here. There isn't enough playmaking and shooting to be a good offensive team. There are too many weak defenders getting big minutes to be a dominant defensive team. I am not seeing what the vision is here to actually get behind continuing what we are doing.

The blueprint is Raptors and Bucks obviously. Both build through trades, development and high upside picks in the draft.
1- Bledsoe, Lowry- athletic, strong, pull up threat.
Fultz fits that team concept, still a lot of development to do. Lowry clicked when he was 27, Bledsoe 24.
2. Matthews, Van Vleet. Strong, good shooters. Van Vleet playmaker, Matthews more versatile defensively.
Fournier is not strong, but good shooter, average playmaker, fairly versatile defensively. He is very disappointing in this playoffs, but so was Van Vleet last year until Bucks series and Matthews many times before. I dont think he is the answer, but he is also not the problem. I am fine with moving him, but sg market is not exactly deep, and his market value is not exactly high with his contract situation. In the end Weltman must decide if he is the chemistry killer and when is the perfect time to trade him if he is.
3. Anunoby, Middleton- Long, good finishers, good shooters. Similarities end here. Anunoby is a great versatile defender, while Middleton is a shot maker and playmaker.
Okeke is long, good finisher and good shooter so the common theme remains. He is something of a mix between those two players above. I am high on him, but we just dont know until he starts to play.
4. Giannis, Siakam- long, athletic, good team defenders, good drivers and playmakers.
Isaac fits defensive side which is impressive given the competition but falls short on driving and playmaking. If he ever stays healthy we will need to find our offense elsewhere.
5. Lopez, Gasol- shooting, skilled, smart defender
Vucevic is the best ball handler of them, comparable shooter and worst rim protector (but not as far from Gasol as you would think, better than him last year !). He is more in a Gasol mold than Lopez. Complements Fultz and Isaac nicely with his shooting and playmaking.
Bamba is more in a Lopez mold. Rim protector and shooter. He lacks the smart defender part, but maybe it will come with time.

To me similarities are striking. We wont see the full extent of Weltman vision next year sadly, but we have pieces that not so many teams possess. Positions number 3 and 4 are obviously the hardest to get. For 2 games i thought we have it covered.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#207 » by MagicMatic » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:11 am

zaymon wrote:
Last Guardian wrote:Stay the course? What even is the course? There is very little potential here. There isn't enough playmaking and shooting to be a good offensive team. There are too many weak defenders getting big minutes to be a dominant defensive team. I am not seeing what the vision is here to actually get behind continuing what we are doing.

The blueprint is Raptors and Bucks obviously. Both build through trades, development and high upside picks in the draft.
1- Bledsoe, Lowry- athletic, strong, pull up threat.
Fultz fits that team concept, still a lot of development to do. Lowry clicked when he was 27, Bledsoe 24.
2. Matthews, Van Vleet. Strong, good shooters. Van Vleet playmaker, Matthews more versatile defensively.
Fournier is not strong, but good shooter, average playmaker, fairly versatile defensively. He is very disappointing in this playoffs, but so was Van Vleet last year until Bucks series and Matthews many times before. I dont think he is the answer, but he is also not the problem. I am fine with moving him, but sg market is not exactly deep, and his market value is not exactly high with his contract situation. In the end Weltman must decide if he is the chemistry killer and when is the perfect time to trade him if he is.
3. Anunoby, Middleton- Long, good finishers, good shooters. Similarities end here. Anunoby is a great versatile defender, while Middleton is a shot maker and playmaker.
Okeke is long, good finisher and good shooter so the common theme remains. He is something of a mix between those two players above. I am high on him, but we just dont know until he starts to play.
4. Giannis, Siakam- long, athletic, good team defenders, good drivers and playmakers.
Isaac fits defensive side which is impressive given the competition but falls short on driving and playmaking. If he ever stays healthy we will need to find our offense elsewhere.
5. Lopez, Gasol- shooting, skilled, smart defender
Vucevic is the best ball handler of them, comparable shooter and worst rim protector (but not as far from Gasol as you would think, better than him last year !). He is more in a Gasol mold than Lopez. Complements Fultz and Isaac nicely with his shooting and playmaking.
Bamba is more in a Lopez mold. Rim protector and shooter. He lacks the smart defender part, but maybe it will come with time.

To me similarities are striking. We wont see the full extent of Weltman vision next year sadly, but we have pieces that not so many teams possess. Positions number 3 and 4 are obviously the hardest to get. For 2 games i thought we have it covered.


None of this works if those players aren’t anywhere near as efficient or capable. Giannis is arguably the best player in the nba and it was a similar story for Kawhi and Toronto last season. So I guess they need to find a superstar number 1 option? Ok....

Orlando not having the talent is the problem. It doesn’t matter if they construct a team of similar skill sets that provide far lesser results.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#208 » by pepe1991 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:06 am

Building team without superstar is waste of time. However, how to get one should be the main talking point here.

1) draft.
Declining value as valiable option with new draft changes, high risk - questionable reward. Lot ot times players don't live up to hype or need years until they are really good. By that point most of them change teams.

2) trades
Stars get payed, to match salaries you have to sell your assets

3) free agency
most unreliable strategy
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#209 » by drsd » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:19 pm

Last Guardian wrote:Stay the course? What even is the course?.


The Magic will make changes. But we fans must wait for Fournier and Ennis to respond to our opinions. Whether they are in/out is a big part of the forthcoming off-season (unless the Magic bounce back to win round-1 @!!).



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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#210 » by drsd » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:29 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Building team without superstar is waste of time. However, how to get one should be the main talking point here.

1) draft.
Declining value as valiable option with new draft changes, high risk - questionable reward. Lot ot times players don't live up to hype or need years until they are really good. By that point most of them change teams.

2) trades
Stars get payed, to match salaries you have to sell your assets

3) free agency
most unreliable strategy


I would argue that the draft is the most unreliable mechanism to gain a top-10 star. Tanking does not work.

BUT: teams drafting for stars does work. Most elite teams today found talent in the draft, via NOT tanking. So the quandary exists.
Do not tank but use a draft slot to be excellent.

This is clearly where I felt the Magic failed in Bamba. Whatever next year's trade-down market for an obvious "Shai Gilgeous-Alexander" player, Orlando needs to start making said trades****. I am happy as Fultz will be better than Gilgeous-Alexander, but on the draft night, selecting Bamba when an obiovusius SGA trade was there to make, it made no sense.

...


p.s. I am sick of all NBA mangers selecting in the draft based on height. Length: ok. But height. This makes no sense.
I could go thought the last 5 draft were I could clearly see bad draft selections. (I could not see "good" draft selections and thus I am not a NBA GM.). But bad is obviously bad.



*** = Orlando might need to trade up to the 6-9 range in this narrative for the coming draft.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#211 » by Young Thunder » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:37 pm

If Fournier opts in, I see GS as an obvious trade partner, because they will be in a win-noy mode with Curry and Thompson back

Trade 1: Fournier x Iguodala´s TPE (17.1M that expires October 24)

Trade 2: It depends if GS prefer Offense or Defense.

V1: Vuc x Wiggins + #2
V2: Gordon+Aminu x Wiggins + #2


Orlando take a step back next season, waiting for the 21-22 season when Isaac will be back, and open roster minutes for young players like Bamba or Okeke.

Fultz, Wiggins, Okeke, Bamba, (Isaac) + pick 2 and pick 15 is a really interesting young core, despite Wiggins contract.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#212 » by MagicMatic » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:03 pm

drsd wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Building team without superstar is waste of time. However, how to get one should be the main talking point here.

1) draft.
Declining value as valiable option with new draft changes, high risk - questionable reward. Lot ot times players don't live up to hype or need years until they are really good. By that point most of them change teams.

2) trades
Stars get payed, to match salaries you have to sell your assets

3) free agency
most unreliable strategy


I would argue that the draft is the most unreliable mechanism to gain a top-10 star. Tanking does not work.

BUT: teams drafting for stars does work. Most elite teams today found talent in the draft, via NOT tanking. So the quandary exists.
Do not tank but use a draft slot to be excellent.

This is clearly where I felt the Magic failed in Bamba. Whatever next year's trade-down market for an obvious "Shai Gilgeous-Alexander" player, Orlando needs to start making said trades****. I am happy as Fultz will be better than Gilgeous-Alexander, but on the draft night, selecting Bamba when an obiovusius SGA trade was there to make, it made no sense.

...


p.s. I am sick of all NBA mangers selecting in the draft based on height. Length: ok. But height. This makes no sense.
I could go thought the last 5 draft were I could clearly see bad draft selections. (I could not see "good" draft selections and thus I am not a NBA GM.). But bad is obviously bad.



*** = Orlando might need to trade up to the 6-9 range in this narrative for the coming draft.
..


You say the draft is the most unreliable option, yet you aren’t putting into context Orlando’s situation.

1. Good free agents don’t go to floundering teams without already established stars. Good deals notwithstanding.

2. Trades are hard to make for primary option stars unless you have-
a) overwhelming trade assets.

b) a very specific situation involving a disgruntled top player with a short list. Even then, Orlando isn’t on that list.


So tell me. Why is everyone against the draft as the primary source of finding a #1 option on an offense without a real one? Is it taking a chance? Yes, but it’s at least a chance. The other options aren’t realistic in Orlando’s situation.

It doesn’t mean you need the #1 surefire pick. However, people need to stop pretending the draft won’t save this franchise like it has in the total history of its success. This is why people get pissed off when “safe” picks are made for players that mainly have length bias and limited offensive capabilities. It’s also the same reason why people are annoyed this team would rather roll out the same squad and pick 14-16 every season without addressing the obvious.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#213 » by Skybox » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:07 pm

Young Thunder wrote:If Fournier opts in, I see GS as an obvious trade partner, because they will be in a win-noy mode with Curry and Thompson back

Trade 1: Fournier x Iguodala´s TPE (17.1M that expires October 24)

Trade 2: It depends if GS prefer Offense or Defense.

V1: Vuc x Wiggins + #2
V2: Gordon+Aminu x Wiggins + #2


Orlando take a step back next season, waiting for the 21-22 season when Isaac will be back, and open roster minutes for young players like Bamba or Okeke.

Fultz, Wiggins, Okeke, Bamba, (Isaac) + pick 2 and pick 15 is a really interesting young core, despite Wiggins contract.


these options to me are the most apparent and realistic. Do I want Wiggins' contract?-of course not, but that's the price to take a swing with that pick. On the other hand, Wiggins scores 20 ppg his whole career...couldn't it be at least imaginable that his efficiency MIGHT be tuned up and something clicks? I wouldn't trade for him for his upside, but it does exist as a possible by-product of the deal. In line with Pepe's posts (I think) we need to take shots at great outcomes (like #2 in an apparently weak draft- I prefer "challenging" as there will be stars, just not clear who). It's all about synergy...Fultz, Bamba, Isaac, Okeke, Edwards or Ball, Wiggins, Gordon (if he's here)...every few years teams make visibly questionable changes (coaching, personnel, trading stars right before they decline or are revealed as system guys)
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#214 » by Hogified05 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:10 pm

Oladipo seems to be on the block. Anyone interested in bringing him back?
The hero Orlando deserves is out there somewhere, Dwight was not the one we needed. So we will hunt for him...
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#215 » by thelead » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:54 pm

Hogified05 wrote:Oladipo seems to be on the block. Anyone interested in bringing him back?

Not with our cap situation, the type of money he will want and his injuries

What would we trade? Evan? Then sure
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#216 » by thelead » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:59 pm

Nate McMillan is available
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#217 » by Def Swami » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:01 pm

Genuinely interested in the post-season press conference from Weltman tomorrow.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#218 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:01 pm

thelead wrote:Nate McMillan is available


FO isn't going to fire and hire a new HC when they're in the last year of their own contract.
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#219 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:03 pm

Def Swami wrote:Genuinely interested in the post-season press conference from Weltman tomorrow.


Injuries, great to make it to the playoffs again, Draft process different due to COVID but glad they've scouted throughout the year, let's run it back for 2021
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Re: Stay the course or rebuild now 

Post#220 » by Def Swami » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:06 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Def Swami wrote:Genuinely interested in the post-season press conference from Weltman tomorrow.


Injuries, great to make it to the playoffs again, Draft process different due to COVID but glad they've scouted throughout the year, let's run it back for 2021

I'm curious if there's any deviation from this. Anything as a sign to fans that we might not be as good next year and see next year as a transition season. Like what John Denton is referring to.

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