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2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL

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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#281 » by KillMonger » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:15 pm

NBlue wrote:
KillMonger wrote:This is what i don't get with Clifford.....Ok so we had energy and rhythm with Fultz and Vuc playing towards the end of the 3rd but i get it you can't play them every minute so you bring in DJ and the company....but when they came in they held on for a little then you started to see the energy and momentum slip and slip and slip....CLIFFORD SEES THIS.....AND DOES NOTHING....stick to the chart....don't bring them back in earlier to stop the bleeding....keep them on the bench because....reasons? where's the IN-GAME adjustments?


So -- we all saw this and I'm sure Cliff does also but he really has limited options. You bring back Fultz too early and he is not going to have enough gas. He actually did bring him back well earlier than usual. The fact of the matter is that Cliff isn't playing with a full deck -- its really damn hard against a stacked Bucks team especially when they are hitting shots.

To me if there is one criticism here its failing to play Clark in the 4th. He was playing the best D on the team on Giannis and shooting better than Evan. This was probably Evan's best playoff game - ever - and he was still godawful. I don't know who to beg that Evan opts out this year but that is probably the biggest positive that could happen to the Magic this offseason....

Fultz played 31 minutes he would of been fine at the end of the game since a good amount of time he's standing in a corner anyway but what i'm saying is clifford has a problem in-game with adjustments he just sticks to whatever he always does....i mean did DJ really need to play 26 minutes?

Forcing that DJ/Fultz lineup killed us in certain spots because when Fournier came back in the game with DJ and Fultz guess what he had to guard Kris Middleton and Evan couldn't check him.....at least Ennis made things tough Middleton he was into him bumping him great contests just overall more physical but clifford again sees this and continues to ride that DJ/Fultz pairing into oblivion....

You're right about Fournier i hope he opts out too, i just wish clifford also had an opt out as well....people say "maybe if he had a better roster" Naw not buying it....I just think as a coach you got to be able to make those in-game adjustments when needed and clifford is just too set in his ways for me.....If this is obvious to me, it has to be obvious to Weltman and Hammond who has a wealth of knowledge of the game...
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#282 » by NBlue » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:31 pm

Its hard to have perspective after playoff losses but the Cliff hate here seems completely insane to me.

Our team isn't made up of members of the island of misfit toys because those guys would be too good for our team. He is STARTING a dude that released midseason, another guy that Philly basically gave to us midseason, a pg that was a massive reclamation project, Evan (who we have already discussed) and Vooch (who has played his best ball of his career in this series under Cliff).

How the entire Orlando Magic fan base does not give Cliff a standing ovation for keeping the magic even close for 3 quarters is beyond me. He got our squad to hustle their asses off and fight all they could for 3 quarters. You want to take issue with some of the rotation choices -- me too -- but you have to keep in mind the bigger picture. This team doesn't even have a chance without Cliff's coaching and failing to acknowledge that is simply absurd.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#283 » by ChosenSavior » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:35 pm

NBlue wrote:
ChosenSavior wrote:He has a 5-15 playoff record. He can get your team to the playoffs but it does not seem he can get them to win playoff games.


Is that a joke? Let's trade coaches and see how Cliff does. The Bucks have talent and shooting oozing out of their lineup all over the place and the Magic are lucky to field a few healthy starters. Under Cliff we are seeing the best Vooch we have ever seen at any time in his career and he has strung together one win and one very gutty performance out of four games against the clear cut East #1 and the reigning MVP.

I think its totally fair to question some of his sub patterns and its also totally fair to criticize, but your comments here are myopic and obtuse.


Yeah given the situation with the team, using the playoff record against him probably wasn't a good look but if you are talking about trading coaches with the Bucks, I would do that in a second and never look back.

I'm not really about moral victories personally but I would be ignorant to not recognize the good Clifford has done here during his time with the Magic. Your comment to me states that it is our roster that is the main issue and I can agree with that as we do have some serious problems there. Maybe I should withhold judgement until we can finally put a talented roster together. We'll see if Clifford survives that long.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#284 » by KillMonger » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:50 pm

Clifford is who he is....this isn't some newbie, he has track record....Even when he had an Allstar in Kemba...didn't really amount to much and it's the same story every time....he's a good guy and decent coach, he'll overachieve the first year but when he gets figured out and teams know what he wants to do instead of changing things up he sticks to the script and gets worse and worse....that's what charlotte fans were telling us when we got him, and it's playing out pretty much the same.....My dad used to tell me if you can't see the sucker in the room...it's you

Some charlotte fans were saying the whole "better roster" excuse as well.....problem is clifford is never there long enough to see for some reason or another.....i'm sure we'll ride his contract out because it's better to have some continuity instead of a coaching carousel but i'm not sure he's the right coach for the situation.....he's a win now coach when we're really not in the right state to do so....i think there is a disconnect in terms of maybe timeline for the team....where we are supposed to be and the reality of where we're at....we should've came out of a rebuild smelling like roses like Denver is looking now....instead.....here we are about to be bounced out of the first round in the playoffs second year in a row...instead this time there is no silver lining
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#285 » by J-Mezzy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:55 pm

Loved the effort today

But it all went to **** once we took out Fultz and Vuc. Clark sitting out in the 4th also killed us
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#286 » by NBlue » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:59 pm

ChosenSavior wrote:
NBlue wrote:
ChosenSavior wrote:He has a 5-15 playoff record. He can get your team to the playoffs but it does not seem he can get them to win playoff games.


Is that a joke? Let's trade coaches and see how Cliff does. The Bucks have talent and shooting oozing out of their lineup all over the place and the Magic are lucky to field a few healthy starters. Under Cliff we are seeing the best Vooch we have ever seen at any time in his career and he has strung together one win and one very gutty performance out of four games against the clear cut East #1 and the reigning MVP.

I think its totally fair to question some of his sub patterns and its also totally fair to criticize, but your comments here are myopic and obtuse.


Yeah given the situation with the team, using the playoff record against him probably wasn't a good look but if you are talking about trading coaches with the Bucks, I would do that in a second and never look back.

I'm not really about moral victories personally but I would be ignorant to not recognize the good Clifford has done here during his time with the Magic. Your comment to me states that it is our roster that is the main issue and I can agree with that as we do have some serious problems there. Maybe I should withhold judgement until we can finally put a talented roster together. We'll see if Clifford survives that long.


I agree with you 100% -- the roster construction has been terrible -- and it may well be that Cliff can't win big playoff games - we just don't know. But there is no way that the squad the Magic has put out there for the first 4 games can play with the Bucks no matter who is coaching.

Also, I'd like to particularly complement you on a very fair and level headed response to my comment that was rather pejorative. I am, frankly, pissed at our ownership and to a lesser extent current management. You want someone to blame for the mess we are in this series that is who you should point your finger right at -- no question about it. There is a substantial amount of blame to go around here and Cliff even deserves some of it of course -- but not the lion's share.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#287 » by yoyojw17 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:04 pm

ChosenSavior wrote:
NBlue wrote:
ChosenSavior wrote:He has a 5-15 playoff record. He can get your team to the playoffs but it does not seem he can get them to win playoff games.


Is that a joke? Let's trade coaches and see how Cliff does. The Bucks have talent and shooting oozing out of their lineup all over the place and the Magic are lucky to field a few healthy starters. Under Cliff we are seeing the best Vooch we have ever seen at any time in his career and he has strung together one win and one very gutty performance out of four games against the clear cut East #1 and the reigning MVP.

I think its totally fair to question some of his sub patterns and its also totally fair to criticize, but your comments here are myopic and obtuse.


Yeah given the situation with the team, using the playoff record against him probably wasn't a good look but if you are talking about trading coaches with the Bucks, I would do that in a second and never look back.

I'm not really about moral victories personally but I would be ignorant to not recognize the good Clifford has done here during his time with the Magic. Your comment to me states that it is our roster that is the main issue and I can agree with that as we do have some serious problems there. Maybe I should withhold judgement until we can finally put a talented roster together. We'll see if Clifford survives that long.


I'm more than positive that if we had MCW... AG... and Isaac... that things would be a lot different. Those are some of the better defenders on this team that would have been integral parts of rotation in attempting to limit Middleton and Giannis. Take them out and here you are competing against the number 1 team in the NBA with all of their players.... and here we are with nearly 40% of our of ideal rotation sitting on the bench. There is only so much you can do or squeeze out of em. and then to compare Clifford and the bucks coach... when one has a complete toolset organized and shiny ... and the other one is trying to play macgyver on the opposite side.

Not sure what people expected of this situation. Were expectations set too high from the first win? i don't know. But yeah... outside of wishing players were making shots that they typically made.... moral victories are all you can ask for right now.

the mindset of grind, discipline, hard work, making right decisions are what you are trying to instill in the players.... so that no matter who is swapped in and out you will hope that will carry over. that's why I'm not open to a fire sale.... but strategic moves of swapping out players that do not or will not move the needle. And yes... that takes trial and error... trial and error that this board is not willing to wait for. And it will be hard pressed for the GM to make widespread decisions with this sample size unless they can predict the trajectory of the player in the future or the organization.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#288 » by J-Mezzy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:05 pm

I am afraid that management will say we won 1 game and competed in another game and we had injuries. Let's run it back yo
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#289 » by ChosenSavior » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:11 pm

NBlue wrote:
ChosenSavior wrote:
NBlue wrote:
Is that a joke? Let's trade coaches and see how Cliff does. The Bucks have talent and shooting oozing out of their lineup all over the place and the Magic are lucky to field a few healthy starters. Under Cliff we are seeing the best Vooch we have ever seen at any time in his career and he has strung together one win and one very gutty performance out of four games against the clear cut East #1 and the reigning MVP.

I think its totally fair to question some of his sub patterns and its also totally fair to criticize, but your comments here are myopic and obtuse.


Yeah given the situation with the team, using the playoff record against him probably wasn't a good look but if you are talking about trading coaches with the Bucks, I would do that in a second and never look back.

I'm not really about moral victories personally but I would be ignorant to not recognize the good Clifford has done here during his time with the Magic. Your comment to me states that it is our roster that is the main issue and I can agree with that as we do have some serious problems there. Maybe I should withhold judgement until we can finally put a talented roster together. We'll see if Clifford survives that long.


I agree with you 100% -- the roster construction has been terrible -- and it may well be that Cliff can't win big playoff games - we just don't know. But there is no way that the squad the Magic has put out there for the first 4 games can play with the Bucks no matter who is coaching.

Also, I'd like to particularly complement you on a very fair and level headed response to my comment that was rather pejorative. I am, frankly, pissed at our ownership and to a lesser extent current management. You want someone to blame for the mess we are in this series that is who you should point your finger right at -- no question about it. There is a substantial amount of blame to go around here and Cliff even deserves some of it of course -- but not the lion's share.


Likewise to you in regards to you response. We are all Magic fans at the end of the day and we all want to see this franchise reach the pinnacle of the NBA. Our opinions on how to get there may be different but the end goal is the same. My problem with Cliff was the fact that this game was 100% winnable and I felt that the lineups he had out there just were not good enough to get us the win. Of course with how injured and depleted our roster is, his hands are tied a bit. I just felt that when you have a chance to get a win against a tough opponent, you may have to deviate from the norm to get it done and bringing back Vuc and Fultz early when Milwaukee had their best players in needed to happen.

WeHam are 100% on the clock this coming offseason. I am not really sure Magic fans will be fine with just "running this back" and see if the results turn out differently. Pick a direction and go all in.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#290 » by KillMonger » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:12 pm

J-Mezzy wrote:I am afraid that management will say we won 1 game and competed in another game and we had injuries. Let's run it back yo

i hope not because that would be an unmitigated fail....This coming off-season they have an opportunity....there are rumors out there about teams being interested so they should be working the phones and seeing what is possible.....I do have concerns.....one, how much input does clifford have in offseason moves........two, how much input does Alex Martins have in offseason moves....If they have full autonomy as Weltman has said then he should be able to make the tough decisions regardless...
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#291 » by NBlue » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:12 pm

KillMonger wrote:Clifford is who he is....this isn't some newbie, he has track record....Even when he had an Allstar in Kemba...didn't really amount to much and it's the same story every time....he's a good guy and decent coach, he'll overachieve the first year but when he gets figured out and teams know what he wants to do instead of changing things up he sticks to the script and gets worse and worse....that's what charlotte fans were telling us when we got him, and it's playing out pretty much the same.....My dad used to tell me if you can't see the sucker in the room...it's you

Some charlotte fans were saying the whole "better roster" excuse as well.....problem is clifford is never there long enough to see for some reason or another.....i'm sure we'll ride his contract out because it's better to have some continuity instead of a coaching carousel but i'm not sure he's the right coach for the situation.....he's a win now coach when we're really not in the right state to do so....i think there is a disconnect in terms of maybe timeline for the team....where we are supposed to be and the reality of where we're at....we should've came out of a rebuild smelling like roses like Denver is looking now....instead.....here we are about to be bounced out of the first round in the playoffs second year in a row...instead this time there is no silver lining


Well, it is hard to argue with that analysis. In the last 16 years the Hornets (Bobcats) have made the playoffs a grand total of 3 times and won a total of 3 games. All 3 of the wins and 2 of the 3 appearances were coached by Cliff.

Clearly, Cliff was the problem in Charlotte.

Mea Culpa.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#292 » by KillMonger » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:17 pm

NBlue wrote:
KillMonger wrote:Clifford is who he is....this isn't some newbie, he has track record....Even when he had an Allstar in Kemba...didn't really amount to much and it's the same story every time....he's a good guy and decent coach, he'll overachieve the first year but when he gets figured out and teams know what he wants to do instead of changing things up he sticks to the script and gets worse and worse....that's what charlotte fans were telling us when we got him, and it's playing out pretty much the same.....My dad used to tell me if you can't see the sucker in the room...it's you

Some charlotte fans were saying the whole "better roster" excuse as well.....problem is clifford is never there long enough to see for some reason or another.....i'm sure we'll ride his contract out because it's better to have some continuity instead of a coaching carousel but i'm not sure he's the right coach for the situation.....he's a win now coach when we're really not in the right state to do so....i think there is a disconnect in terms of maybe timeline for the team....where we are supposed to be and the reality of where we're at....we should've came out of a rebuild smelling like roses like Denver is looking now....instead.....here we are about to be bounced out of the first round in the playoffs second year in a row...instead this time there is no silver lining


Well, it is hard to argue with that analysis. In the last 16 years the Hornets (Bobcats) have made the playoffs a grand total of 3 times and won a total of 3 games. All 3 of the wins and 2 of the 3 appearances were coached by Cliff.

Clearly, Cliff was the problem in Charlotte.

Mea Culpa.

obviously no one is arguing clifford is THE problem, he has his share of what's going on, no one gets a pass in this situation or the one in charlotte.....but hey you know what they say about spilled milk...c'est la vie
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#293 » by SOUL » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:22 pm

If I was forced to eat crow on Elfrid, I'm gonna need some of ya'll to eat crow on Fournier and realize what he is.. so much wasted typing defending him over the years.. :lol:
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#294 » by pepe1991 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:07 pm

If you watch Bucks, with guy who will win DPOY and MVP in same year, addidional alllstar, third option being former allstar and who off bench have Hill ( would start on Magic or play 25 min), Marvin WIlliams ( would start today), Robin Lopez ( would get 15 -20 min a game today)
and your takeaway is that coach is our issue... Than man....oh man. I can't even :lol:


We are simply outclassed. Even with Gordon ( who can't play against Bucks to save his life) , Isaac and MCW, this team would at best, lose in 6.
Magic, like any other nba team, need star wing or guard. And by a word star it means- top 10 player at his position. Since Magic, and vast majority of the league do not have that guy, we, just like most of the league ,are simply not contenders nor + 50 wins team.

Vuc will finish playoffs on 30 ppg mark and it's still not enough.

Talking about complimentary peaces like Evan, Gordon, Hill, Lopez bros even MIddleton and Vuc is kind a silly. They are just that , complimentary peaces. On some team they will look great given concept of team offense and defense, and on some worst teams they will be overexposed ,overused and therfore shut down eventually.

Talking how bad Evan is just higlights unrealistic expetations , Did anybody in right mind expect Evan to be 20 ppg scorer against Bucks? Come on, let's be serious. That's why Middelton is payed twice of his salary.
Same with DJ Augustin. What are realistic expetations from career backup PG ? He is outplaying George Hill.. That's something. But ofc he can't outplay Hill and Bledsoe.

Magic only objective adventage in this playoffs from start was C position, at every other position we are objectivlly worst team.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#295 » by BAMBAEXPRESS » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:11 pm

Didn't we have the same EXACT comments and conversation a year ago LOL.

Can't wait to do it again in 2021!
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#296 » by Rainwater » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:30 pm

This was a likely sweep healthy or not. I don't really blame Cliff because the magic just don't have the talent to win. You can't win if you don't have the talent. This team is full of role players.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#297 » by KillMonger » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:00 pm

Rainwater wrote:This was a likely sweep healthy or not. I don't really blame Cliff because the magic just don't have the talent to win. You can't win if you don't have the talent. This team is full of role players.

talent isn't the only reason but sure the roster is a huge issue....FO have to make something happen this off-season
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#298 » by Ducklett » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:02 pm

Coach Cliff has **** the bed his whole tenure. Gotta find a young buck with new bball theory.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#299 » by Knightro » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:14 am

Blaming Clifford for these losses is silly.

He absolutely has his warts, specifically with his lack of flexibility on rotations and sub patterns. But the Magic don't have a good roster to begin with and are missing so many guys due to injury.

Both starting forwards. Backup SG. Backup PF. Backup C.

And the Bucks are really good! They're the No. 1 seed for a reason.
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Re: 2020 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 4- Milwaukee Bucks (2-1) vs Orlando Magic 1:30 pm EST on NBA TV and Fox Sports FL 

Post#300 » by SOUL » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:19 am

Cliff can only extract so much out of this team so it's not his "fault", but I don't like his long term prospects here. He's very set in his ways and I think that is very good for a specific team. I think we're going to be in a big transitional period in the next year or two which probably won't gel with how he wants to coach/allot minutes.

I would like a coach that is proactive rather than reactive when it comes to stuff but it would require reaching out to a coach that isn't a retread.

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