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The Offseason thread

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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#121 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:18 am

MagicStarwipe wrote:
MoMM wrote:
Skin wrote:Vuc is elite if he can bring back an elite return. Therefore, not elite.

No team is winning based off a Center based offense. It's prehistoric. We're doing it all wrong.

Vuc signed with the best deal he could take + why would he give up the only gig in the league where the team is centered around him?

GM failures we can agree on. Henny's guys should've been long gone by now.

Jokic?


Jokic has the playmaking ability of a PG.


Jokic in this playoffs averaged 1,4 assist more than Vuc. What's funny is potential assists. Jokic potential assists were 9,6, Vuc 9,4.
Ofc one team had Murray, other didn't.
Vuc can easly average 18-11-5 on team that can shoot. Last year he was 3rd in potential assists just behind Horford and Jokic. This year he slipped , still in top 7.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#122 » by Bensational » Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:31 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Vuc would make a list of top 3 Knicks players in last decade ( maybe 2 decades, i'm not willing to put myself through pain of googling Knicks rosters).
Vuc is elite player. Fans here don't respect him because, reasons. Don't even want to go too deep why. I don't care.
But he is only Magic allstar that didn't took first option to run away from a team.

Not his fault team never ever menaged to find anybody good with him, nor better than him.
Not comparing him with KG, but it was same thing, KG lost in first round 7 times in a row, ( swept in 4 i belive) because T wolves simply could never find second solid player to make team anything more than borderline average.

Evan is role player, payed as role player, and much like Gordon, is having big usage as team has no better options. Once again, GM fault, not his.

Vuc is elite if he can bring back an elite return. Therefore, not elite.

No team is winning based off a Center based offense. It's prehistoric. We're doing it all wrong.

Vuc signed with the best deal he could take + why would he give up the only gig in the league where the team is centered around him?

GM failures we can agree on. Henny's guys should've been long gone by now.



Where you in room where Vuc had no other options ? Execlly.
Vuc making $26M next year won't even make him top 40 highest payed players.

some names who will be payed more than him:
Al Horford
Nick Batum
Jrue Holiday
Wiggins
Middleton
Hayward
K Love
CHris Paul (36 y.o.)
John Wall ( didn't play for 2 years)
Griffin ( dead salary , multiple injuries)
Tobias Harris
Drummond

off bet, 35% of players who make more than him, are worst players entering 2020-21 season. And i didn't even try that hard to find all of them. ( Adams, Porter, Derozan ) or ones who make little less, yet are straight trash ( Gary Haris, Barnes, Rozier, Randle, Dieng).

You keep pretenting he is on John Wall / Chris Paul contract. He is not. Entering 2021-22 season, he probably won't be top 50 highest payed player any more.


Other than Batum, I think most of those names could have taken us as far as we went this season. We were a sub .500 8th seed, after all.

I have grown to appreciate Vuc. Seeing him show up against the Bucks, and his post ASB performances, I think he's still continuing to grow and improve. I wouldn't be upset if we continued to add more talent around him, though I'd prefer a fresh look altogether. Still, I don't mind him as a veteran example to developing young players.

But right now our team seems to perform more based off of the team's abilities than that of any one individual - Vuc included. So we could easily trade him and remain as borderline mediocre as we are. The question is, can we add a piece to improve in the process?
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#123 » by SOUL » Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:33 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
MoMM wrote:Jokic?


Jokic has the playmaking ability of a PG.


Jokic in this playoffs averaged 1,4 assist more than Vuc. What's funny is potential assists. Jokic potential assists were 9,6, Vuc 9,4.
Ofc one team had Murray, other didn't.
Vuc can easly average 18-11-5 on team that can shoot. Last year he was 3rd in potential assists just behind Horford and Jokic. This year he slipped , still in top 7.


IMO their passing is similar in that they both can make good reads for a center (Jokic can thread the needle a little bit more and has nice full court passes), but Vuc isn't flashy and can make the right pass out/right play. Where I think Jokic is vastly superior is I see him bring the ball up and he comfortably can take other bigs from the 3 point line while dribbling and doing spin moves and draw attention. Vuc's passing is from standstill a lot which is still very potent when people double, but Jokic has a lot of gravity from being able to dribble so well which helps him find cutters instead of him just kicking out.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#124 » by MoMM » Thu Sep 3, 2020 12:43 pm

Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:Vuc is elite if he can bring back an elite return. Therefore, not elite.

No team is winning based off a Center based offense. It's prehistoric. We're doing it all wrong.

Vuc signed with the best deal he could take + why would he give up the only gig in the league where the team is centered around him?

GM failures we can agree on. Henny's guys should've been long gone by now.



Where you in room where Vuc had no other options ? Execlly.
Vuc making $26M next year won't even make him top 40 highest payed players.

some names who will be payed more than him:
Al Horford
Nick Batum
Jrue Holiday
Wiggins
Middleton
Hayward
K Love
CHris Paul (36 y.o.)
John Wall ( didn't play for 2 years)
Griffin ( dead salary , multiple injuries)
Tobias Harris
Drummond

off bet, 35% of players who make more than him, are worst players entering 2020-21 season. And i didn't even try that hard to find all of them. ( Adams, Porter, Derozan ) or ones who make little less, yet are straight trash ( Gary Haris, Barnes, Rozier, Randle, Dieng).

You keep pretenting he is on John Wall / Chris Paul contract. He is not. Entering 2021-22 season, he probably won't be top 50 highest payed player any more.


Other than Batum, I think most of those names could have taken us as far as we went this season. We were a sub .500 8th seed, after all.

Wiggins? Hayward? Wall? Tobias? Seriously? I'd say that maybe no one of the list would take us as far as we went this season, mainly because they weren't able to take their team as far as we did with the exception of CP3.

Horford and Tobias's teams were better that ours, but they were 4th (or even 5th if you count Hayward as 4th option) and 3rd options. Just add any of the Top 3 options in the Boston squad (Tatum, Jaylen or Kemba) to our team and I'd say we would have at least more wins than loses. Heck, even with JI playing only 50% of the games we almost had a 50% record.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#125 » by MagicStarwipe » Thu Sep 3, 2020 1:13 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
MoMM wrote:Jokic?


Jokic has the playmaking ability of a PG.


Jokic in this playoffs averaged 1,4 assist more than Vuc. What's funny is potential assists. Jokic potential assists were 9,6, Vuc 9,4.
Ofc one team had Murray, other didn't.
Vuc can easly average 18-11-5 on team that can shoot. Last year he was 3rd in potential assists just behind Horford and Jokic. This year he slipped , still in top 7.


So now you like small sample sizes :lol:

Vuc is obviously a good passer, but clearly Jokic is on a different level. An all time great level for a big as passer.

You guys just won't let go of the idea of Vuc as a franchise player. I get it, he's a nice guy, but can we come back to reality please?
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#126 » by j-ragg » Thu Sep 3, 2020 2:38 pm

I can at least understand the motive of not wanting to lose money in a time like this. As a fan though, I’ll always disagree.

It sucks to say we are probably the least interesting team in the league. Charlotte is up there but got some lotto luck. Maybe Detroit is dueling us for the top spot. Not much meaningful young talent/cap space/assets.

Just look at our national broadcast numbers every year. Going for a goose egg for the 3rd straight year I believe for ESPN/TNT/ABC. Dark times.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#127 » by ARandomStranger » Thu Sep 3, 2020 3:14 pm

AG needs to be traded for a 2 or used to improve our draft position to get a two of some value. Fournier is never going to cut it and if he opts in at least he is an expiring that could net a quality piece during the season.

Also can we resign Gary Clark, I liked how he played in the playoffs and wouldn't mind having him here long term as a backup 4.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#128 » by Bensational » Thu Sep 3, 2020 8:57 pm

MoMM wrote:
Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

Where you in room where Vuc had no other options ? Execlly.
Vuc making $26M next year won't even make him top 40 highest payed players.

some names who will be payed more than him:
Al Horford
Nick Batum
Jrue Holiday
Wiggins
Middleton
Hayward
K Love
CHris Paul (36 y.o.)
John Wall ( didn't play for 2 years)
Griffin ( dead salary , multiple injuries)
Tobias Harris
Drummond

off bet, 35% of players who make more than him, are worst players entering 2020-21 season. And i didn't even try that hard to find all of them. ( Adams, Porter, Derozan ) or ones who make little less, yet are straight trash ( Gary Haris, Barnes, Rozier, Randle, Dieng).

You keep pretenting he is on John Wall / Chris Paul contract. He is not. Entering 2021-22 season, he probably won't be top 50 highest payed player any more.


Other than Batum, I think most of those names could have taken us as far as we went this season. We were a sub .500 8th seed, after all.

Wiggins? Hayward? Wall? Tobias? Seriously? I'd say that maybe no one of the list would take us as far as we went this season, mainly because they weren't able to take their team as far as we did with the exception of CP3.

Horford and Tobias's teams were better that ours, but they were 4th (or even 5th if you count Hayward as 4th option) and 3rd options. Just add any of the Top 3 options in the Boston squad (Tatum, Jaylen or Kemba) to our team and I'd say we would have at least more wins than loses. Heck, even with JI playing only 50% of the games we almost had a 50% record.


Yeah, like I said, our team's results are more team results at this point than that of any individual. We went near .500 without Vuc, we had a better record without Fournier, I think we probably have a better record without Isaac, too.

Those guys above may not have put up the same numbers as Vuc, but overall the team would still be somewhere just under .500 like we were with him.

I'd still prefer Vuc and his contract over most, if not all of them.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#129 » by MoMM » Thu Sep 3, 2020 9:06 pm

Bensational wrote:
MoMM wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Other than Batum, I think most of those names could have taken us as far as we went this season. We were a sub .500 8th seed, after all.

Wiggins? Hayward? Wall? Tobias? Seriously? I'd say that maybe no one of the list would take us as far as we went this season, mainly because they weren't able to take their team as far as we did with the exception of CP3.

Horford and Tobias's teams were better that ours, but they were 4th (or even 5th if you count Hayward as 4th option) and 3rd options. Just add any of the Top 3 options in the Boston squad (Tatum, Jaylen or Kemba) to our team and I'd say we would have at least more wins than loses. Heck, even with JI playing only 50% of the games we almost had a 50% record.


Yeah, like I said, our team's results are more team results at this point than that of any individual. We went near .500 without Vuc, we had a better record without Fournier, I think we probably have a better record without Isaac, too.

Those guys above may not have put up the same numbers as Vuc, but overall the team would still be somewhere just under .500 like we were with him.

I'd still prefer Vuc and his contract over most, if not all of them.

That brings another topic that people are complaining, if we were able to almost be a 0.500 team without some of our best players at some game spans, why people complain so much about Cliff? Imagine if we had a better wing/guard scorer than Evan/Ross.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#130 » by Xatticus » Thu Sep 3, 2020 9:34 pm

SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
Jokic has the playmaking ability of a PG.


Jokic in this playoffs averaged 1,4 assist more than Vuc. What's funny is potential assists. Jokic potential assists were 9,6, Vuc 9,4.
Ofc one team had Murray, other didn't.
Vuc can easly average 18-11-5 on team that can shoot. Last year he was 3rd in potential assists just behind Horford and Jokic. This year he slipped , still in top 7.


IMO their passing is similar in that they both can make good reads for a center (Jokic can thread the needle a little bit more and has nice full court passes), but Vuc isn't flashy and can make the right pass out/right play. Where I think Jokic is vastly superior is I see him bring the ball up and he comfortably can take other bigs from the 3 point line while dribbling and doing spin moves and draw attention. Vuc's passing is from standstill a lot which is still very potent when people double, but Jokic has a lot of gravity from being able to dribble so well which helps him find cutters instead of him just kicking out.


This.

Vucevic is an exceptional decision-maker. He'll make his reads really quickly and make the right pass. It will be accurate and on time. He manages this without turning the ball over. The problem is that he is stationary when he has the ball. He can't advance his position. Jokic is dynamic. Toss the ball to him and let him work and he will manipulate the defense by working his way to where they don't want him to be. Jokic is a playmaker. Vucevic isn't. Vucevic is just a ball mover. You can build a really good offense around Jokic. You can't do the same with Vucevic. You need someone else to facilitate. You need someone that can unlock the door before you can ransack the place.

Players that aren't great finishers/shooters, facilitators, defenders, or some combination thereof, shouldn't get paid $25M per year.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#131 » by MasterGMer » Thu Sep 3, 2020 10:03 pm

Is PHI 76ers in a worse situation than us? They paid tons of money to AI and Tobias, while AI averages 5 PPG in the playoff.

If Evan opt in, I'd trade him immediately. We need cap space for the summer of 2021. The whole Miami Heat Franchise is positioned for 2021 Summer. 2021 FA includes Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kawhi, Gordon Hayward, Kyle Lowry, DeRozen, Rudy Gorbert and more.

I want this Franchise to have a vision for the future. With Status Quo, Miami Heat already beat Mil 2 to 0, and likely win the series to be a Championship Contender.

We need leadership and vision. I also hope we are a player in 2021 Free Agency, to attract players like Gordon Hayward
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#132 » by Xatticus » Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:51 pm

MoMM wrote:
Bensational wrote:
MoMM wrote:Wiggins? Hayward? Wall? Tobias? Seriously? I'd say that maybe no one of the list would take us as far as we went this season, mainly because they weren't able to take their team as far as we did with the exception of CP3.

Horford and Tobias's teams were better that ours, but they were 4th (or even 5th if you count Hayward as 4th option) and 3rd options. Just add any of the Top 3 options in the Boston squad (Tatum, Jaylen or Kemba) to our team and I'd say we would have at least more wins than loses. Heck, even with JI playing only 50% of the games we almost had a 50% record.


Yeah, like I said, our team's results are more team results at this point than that of any individual. We went near .500 without Vuc, we had a better record without Fournier, I think we probably have a better record without Isaac, too.

Those guys above may not have put up the same numbers as Vuc, but overall the team would still be somewhere just under .500 like we were with him.

I'd still prefer Vuc and his contract over most, if not all of them.

That brings another topic that people are complaining, if we were able to almost be a 0.500 team without some of our best players at some game spans, why people complain so much about Cliff? Imagine if we had a better wing/guard scorer than Evan/Ross.


Because of how he does it. He strips the variance out by reducing mistakes. You lose some upside, but you beat the teams that are prone to making mistakes. We are the gatekeeper of the NBA.

I don't dislike Clifford. I think if you are trying to cobble together mismatched and flawed pieces in an attempt to win games, he is a pretty good coach. I think he gives players roles and an area of emphasis to focus on. I like that he encourages guys to take good shots regardless of whether or not they go down. My issue is that his scheme isn't based on interchangeable parts. Or at least it doesn't seem to be. His system is fairly rudimentary and it is designed to get specific shots for specific players. It's possible that this is more a product of having primary options (Fournier and Ross) that are just terrible at distribution, but it needs to be rectified regardless.

Vucevic and Gordon have improved as distributors because they have had the ball in their hands. If your young guys don't have the ball in their hands, they aren't going to improve their decision-making. They might not improve, but you have to give them that chance. The same thing happened in Charlotte. Everyone points to Kemba, but Kemba always had the ball in his hands, so he had the chance to improve. A lot of guys in Charlotte were marginalized and never given the chance to develop.

I'm also not fine with picking up someone like Ennis and throwing him right into the rotation ahead of guys like Iwundu and Frazier. Ennis has no value. If Orlando didn't take him, he was out of a job. Philly was dumping him. Why even carry guys like Iwundu and Frazier if you are going replace them with random flotsam from the waiver wire when an injury occurs? The same can be said of MCW and Clark to some extent, though we didn't have natural replacements already on the roster. I'm sure that the next game is of the utmost importance to Clifford at all times, but it is rather insignificant within the scope of the future of the franchise. A team that is inserting journeymen into the rotation in an attempt to squeeze out an extra win or two over the course of the season is sabotaging its own future. We aren't anywhere near good enough to forsake development. Denver and Toronto use their bench to develop their future.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#133 » by TheGlyde » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:03 am

MoMM wrote:
Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

Where you in room where Vuc had no other options ? Execlly.
Vuc making $26M next year won't even make him top 40 highest payed players.

some names who will be payed more than him:
Al Horford
Nick Batum
Jrue Holiday
Wiggins
Middleton
Hayward
K Love
CHris Paul (36 y.o.)
John Wall ( didn't play for 2 years)
Griffin ( dead salary , multiple injuries)
Tobias Harris
Drummond

off bet, 35% of players who make more than him, are worst players entering 2020-21 season. And i didn't even try that hard to find all of them. ( Adams, Porter, Derozan ) or ones who make little less, yet are straight trash ( Gary Haris, Barnes, Rozier, Randle, Dieng).

You keep pretenting he is on John Wall / Chris Paul contract. He is not. Entering 2021-22 season, he probably won't be top 50 highest payed player any more.


Other than Batum, I think most of those names could have taken us as far as we went this season. We were a sub .500 8th seed, after all.

Wiggins? Hayward? Wall? Tobias? Seriously? I'd say that maybe no one of the list would take us as far as we went this season, mainly because they weren't able to take their team as far as we did with the exception of CP3.

Horford and Tobias's teams were better that ours, but they were 4th (or even 5th if you count Hayward as 4th option) and 3rd options. Just add any of the Top 3 options in the Boston squad (Tatum, Jaylen or Kemba) to our team and I'd say we would have at least more wins than loses. Heck, even with JI playing only 50% of the games we almost had a 50% record.


You know um... You know Horford plays for the 76ers and not Boston now... Right?

MasterGMer wrote:Is PHI 76ers in a worse situation than us? They paid tons of money to AI and Tobias, while AI averages 5 PPG in the playoff.

If Evan opt in, I'd trade him immediately. We need cap space for the summer of 2021. The whole Miami Heat Franchise is positioned for 2021 Summer. 2021 FA includes Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kawhi, Gordon Hayward, Kyle Lowry, DeRozen, Rudy Gorbert and more.

I want this Franchise to have a vision for the future. With Status Quo, Miami Heat already beat Mil 2 to 0, and likely win the series to be a Championship Contender.

We need leadership and vision. I also hope we are a player in 2021 Free Agency, to attract players like Gordon Hayward


Trade Evan for what/who? Playing him for 2020-21 and letting him walk at the end of the season in FA may give us cap space (assuming the CBA isnt torn up and/or the cap number isnt brought down drastically due to no fans).

Trading him for another (non expiring) player and/or a 2021 draft pick would have money on the cap or a cap hold from the pick, and mean less money in FA.

Oh, and if Evan walks at the end of 2020-21 for nothing and you don't take on a contract back for him, and we extend Markelle and Isaac for say, $25million per year combined (bargain, right?)... Add Okeke and #15 this year and we are at ~$106million committed salary, and that is if we don't resign DJ, MCW, Birch, Ennis, Iwundu or Clark (and only sign G-Leaguers/Min guys to replace those 6 guys on the bench).

So we are at $106million in committed salary, with no bench and a salary cap that this year was $109million and could easily shrink.

And lets be real, even if we had unlimited cap space, Paul, Lebron, Kawhi are not signing here.

For Lowry, Hayward, DeRozen or Gobert, they all make at least 26million currently, so you are going to have to gut the team to somehow find the max to offer them, and even if you somehow do, you then have to hope Lowry isn't further on the decline, Hayward isn't playing cards with Isaac on the Injured list, DeRozen can shoot more than 20 feet?

Gobert would be a nice pickup but the guy is talking about a super max from Utah, he isn't coming to Orlando for less than the max and I don't see how we find that space.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#134 » by MasterGMer » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:10 am

TheGlyde wrote:
MoMM wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Other than Batum, I think most of those names could have taken us as far as we went this season. We were a sub .500 8th seed, after all.

Wiggins? Hayward? Wall? Tobias? Seriously? I'd say that maybe no one of the list would take us as far as we went this season, mainly because they weren't able to take their team as far as we did with the exception of CP3.

Horford and Tobias's teams were better that ours, but they were 4th (or even 5th if you count Hayward as 4th option) and 3rd options. Just add any of the Top 3 options in the Boston squad (Tatum, Jaylen or Kemba) to our team and I'd say we would have at least more wins than loses. Heck, even with JI playing only 50% of the games we almost had a 50% record.


You know um... You know Horford plays for the 76ers and not Boston now... Right?

MasterGMer wrote:Is PHI 76ers in a worse situation than us? They paid tons of money to AI and Tobias, while AI averages 5 PPG in the playoff.

If Evan opt in, I'd trade him immediately. We need cap space for the summer of 2021. The whole Miami Heat Franchise is positioned for 2021 Summer. 2021 FA includes Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kawhi, Gordon Hayward, Kyle Lowry, DeRozen, Rudy Gorbert and more.

I want this Franchise to have a vision for the future. With Status Quo, Miami Heat already beat Mil 2 to 0, and likely win the series to be a Championship Contender.

We need leadership and vision. I also hope we are a player in 2021 Free Agency, to attract players like Gordon Hayward


Trade Evan for what/who? Playing him for 2020-21 and letting him walk at the end of the season in FA may give us cap space (assuming the CBA isnt torn up and/or the cap number isnt brought down drastically due to no fans).

Trading him for another (non expiring) player and/or a 2021 draft pick would have money on the cap or a cap hold from the pick, and mean less money in FA.

Oh, and if Evan walks at the end of 2020-21 for nothing and you don't take on a contract back for him, and we extend Markelle and Isaac for say, $25million per year combined (bargain, right?)... Add Okeke and #15 this year and we are at ~$106million committed salary, and that is if we don't resign DJ, MCW, Birch, Ennis, Iwundu or Clark (and only sign G-Leaguers/Min guys to replace those 6 guys on the bench).

So we are at $106million in committed salary, with no bench and a salary cap that this year was $109million and could easily shrink.

And lets be real, even if we had unlimited cap space, Paul, Lebron, Kawhi are not signing here.

For Lowry, Hayward, DeRozen or Gobert, they all make at least 26million currently, so you are going to have to gut the team to somehow find the max to offer them, and even if you somehow do, you then have to hope Lowry isn't further on the decline, Hayward isn't playing cards with Isaac on the Injured list, DeRozen can shoot more than 20 feet?

Gobert would be a nice pickup but the guy is talking about a super max from Utah, he isn't coming to Orlando for less than the max and I don't see how we find that space.


That is depressing to hear. So what should we do, in your opinion? So that we can have a future of contention
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#135 » by TheGlyde » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:41 am

MasterGMer wrote:
TheGlyde wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:Is PHI 76ers in a worse situation than us? They paid tons of money to AI and Tobias, while AI averages 5 PPG in the playoff.

If Evan opt in, I'd trade him immediately. We need cap space for the summer of 2021. The whole Miami Heat Franchise is positioned for 2021 Summer. 2021 FA includes Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kawhi, Gordon Hayward, Kyle Lowry, DeRozen, Rudy Gorbert and more.

I want this Franchise to have a vision for the future. With Status Quo, Miami Heat already beat Mil 2 to 0, and likely win the series to be a Championship Contender.

We need leadership and vision. I also hope we are a player in 2021 Free Agency, to attract players like Gordon Hayward


Trade Evan for what/who? Playing him for 2020-21 and letting him walk at the end of the season in FA may give us cap space (assuming the CBA isnt torn up and/or the cap number isnt brought down drastically due to no fans).

Trading him for another (non expiring) player and/or a 2021 draft pick would have money on the cap or a cap hold from the pick, and mean less money in FA.

Oh, and if Evan walks at the end of 2020-21 for nothing and you don't take on a contract back for him, and we extend Markelle and Isaac for say, $25million per year combined (bargain, right?)... Add Okeke and #15 this year and we are at ~$106million committed salary, and that is if we don't resign DJ, MCW, Birch, Ennis, Iwundu or Clark (and only sign G-Leaguers/Min guys to replace those 6 guys on the bench).

So we are at $106million in committed salary, with no bench and a salary cap that this year was $109million and could easily shrink.

And lets be real, even if we had unlimited cap space, Paul, Lebron, Kawhi are not signing here.

For Lowry, Hayward, DeRozen or Gobert, they all make at least 26million currently, so you are going to have to gut the team to somehow find the max to offer them, and even if you somehow do, you then have to hope Lowry isn't further on the decline, Hayward isn't playing cards with Isaac on the Injured list, DeRozen can shoot more than 20 feet?

Gobert would be a nice pickup but the guy is talking about a super max from Utah, he isn't coming to Orlando for less than the max and I don't see how we find that space.


That is depressing to hear. So what should we do, in your opinion? So that we can have a future of contention


We are in a tough spot, and over the next year or two I think the best we can realistically hope for is incremental improvements.

1. As I said earlier in this thread, I think Evan opts in and you look to trade him if you can get one of these;
- A younger player with potential (think how we got Evan for Afflalo etc)
- A player who is as good a shooter who doesn't need to dominate the ball
- A better playmaker
But, it has to be on a contract that doesn't handcuff the team down the line, which is not easy.

If you can't get one of the above and the Magic are in playoff contention, rather than make a bad trade they may just ride Fournier out all the way to the end of his contract and try to replace him through the draft/MLE and/or hope by then other scorers have developed.

2. Keep Vuc. As I have said recently in posts the end goal is for the team to make enough money that it doesn't become a money sink for the DeVos family and sold to another city. Vuc keeps us in playoff contention and the right moves and player development around him could improve the team overall.

3. Keep Gordon for now. If Okeke is as good as we need him to be, and Aminu is better than this season, then look to move AG at the trade deadline. Again though, if we are in the playoff hunt, and/or Okeke isn't ready, the Magic may stand pat until Isaac proves he can play.

4. Get some real player development staff in here to get Okeke and #15 off on the right foot, Markelle's 3 point game cooking and a big man coach suited for the modern NBA to help Bamba become servicable.

5. Unless you use #15 on a PG, whoever you bring in to backup Markelle needs to be on a 1-2 year deal (not opposed to it being DJ or MCW). If it is a FA, do not give them this full MLE 4 year garbage they gave Aminu, because if Markelle develops as hoped they backup PG might only be playing < 15mins.

6. Take a punt on Isaac's health and try and extend him cheap now while he is injured, hope for the best, and if he goes down again, well, at least his contract isn't a team killer.

7. The rest of the players, take them or leave them, look for cheap buys like Ennis/Clark and don't take on any bad contracts.

So basically, I am saying in a perfect world we move Evan for someone who is younger but becomes better, we move AG for value/youth at the deadline because Okeke/Aminu are playing well, Markelle and Bamba develop well and Vuc carries over his bubble play to next season...

To me that's the best we can hope for.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#136 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 6:21 am

TheGlyde wrote:
MoMM wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Other than Batum, I think most of those names could have taken us as far as we went this season. We were a sub .500 8th seed, after all.

Wiggins? Hayward? Wall? Tobias? Seriously? I'd say that maybe no one of the list would take us as far as we went this season, mainly because they weren't able to take their team as far as we did with the exception of CP3.

Horford and Tobias's teams were better that ours, but they were 4th (or even 5th if you count Hayward as 4th option) and 3rd options. Just add any of the Top 3 options in the Boston squad (Tatum, Jaylen or Kemba) to our team and I'd say we would have at least more wins than loses. Heck, even with JI playing only 50% of the games we almost had a 50% record.


You know um... You know Horford plays for the 76ers and not Boston now... Right?

MasterGMer wrote:Is PHI 76ers in a worse situation than us? They paid tons of money to AI and Tobias, while AI averages 5 PPG in the playoff.

If Evan opt in, I'd trade him immediately. We need cap space for the summer of 2021. The whole Miami Heat Franchise is positioned for 2021 Summer. 2021 FA includes Chris Paul, LeBron James, Kawhi, Gordon Hayward, Kyle Lowry, DeRozen, Rudy Gorbert and more.

I want this Franchise to have a vision for the future. With Status Quo, Miami Heat already beat Mil 2 to 0, and likely win the series to be a Championship Contender.

We need leadership and vision. I also hope we are a player in 2021 Free Agency, to attract players like Gordon Hayward


Trade Evan for what/who? Playing him for 2020-21 and letting him walk at the end of the season in FA may give us cap space (assuming the CBA isnt torn up and/or the cap number isnt brought down drastically due to no fans).

Trading him for another (non expiring) player and/or a 2021 draft pick would have money on the cap or a cap hold from the pick, and mean less money in FA.

Oh, and if Evan walks at the end of 2020-21 for nothing and you don't take on a contract back for him, and we extend Markelle and Isaac for say, $25million per year combined (bargain, right?)... Add Okeke and #15 this year and we are at ~$106million committed salary, and that is if we don't resign DJ, MCW, Birch, Ennis, Iwundu or Clark (and only sign G-Leaguers/Min guys to replace those 6 guys on the bench).

So we are at $106million in committed salary, with no bench and a salary cap that this year was $109million and could easily shrink.

And lets be real, even if we had unlimited cap space, Paul, Lebron, Kawhi are not signing here.

For Lowry, Hayward, DeRozen or Gobert, they all make at least 26million currently, so you are going to have to gut the team to somehow find the max to offer them, and even if you somehow do, you then have to hope Lowry isn't further on the decline, Hayward isn't playing cards with Isaac on the Injured list, DeRozen can shoot more than 20 feet?

Gobert would be a nice pickup but the guy is talking about a super max from Utah, he isn't coming to Orlando for less than the max and I don't see how we find that space.


This post should be on every topic front page.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#137 » by MoMM » Fri Sep 4, 2020 8:40 am

Xatticus wrote:I'm also not fine with picking up someone like Ennis and throwing him right into the rotation ahead of guys like Iwundu and Frazier. Ennis has no value. If Orlando didn't take him, he was out of a job. Philly was dumping him. Why even carry guys like Iwundu and Frazier if you are going replace them with random flotsam from the waiver wire when an injury occurs?

Let's not act like Iwundu and Frazier are that young, Ennis is 30, but they are 25, perhaps our HC just noticed that they are not good enough and won't be back next year? So why give them PT for nothing?
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#138 » by Skin » Fri Sep 4, 2020 9:19 am

MoMM wrote:
Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Vuc would make a list of top 3 Knicks players in last decade ( maybe 2 decades, i'm not willing to put myself through pain of googling Knicks rosters).
Vuc is elite player. Fans here don't respect him because, reasons. Don't even want to go too deep why. I don't care.
But he is only Magic allstar that didn't took first option to run away from a team.

Not his fault team never ever menaged to find anybody good with him, nor better than him.
Not comparing him with KG, but it was same thing, KG lost in first round 7 times in a row, ( swept in 4 i belive) because T wolves simply could never find second solid player to make team anything more than borderline average.

Evan is role player, payed as role player, and much like Gordon, is having big usage as team has no better options. Once again, GM fault, not his.

Vuc is elite if he can bring back an elite return. Therefore, not elite.

No team is winning based off a Center based offense. It's prehistoric. We're doing it all wrong.

Vuc signed with the best deal he could take + why would he give up the only gig in the league where the team is centered around him?

GM failures we can agree on. Henny's guys should've been long gone by now.

Jokic?

Jokic is not an exception because while his passing is fantastic, the real reason why his team is a contender with him at Center is because he provides defense.

"Jokic’s +3.03 Defensive Real Plus-Minus and his +1.17 Defensive Player Impact Plus-Minus place the Serbian center near the top of the NBA in both categories."
https://www.denverstiffs.com/2020/2/10/21131100/stat-of-the-week-nikola-jokic-defensive-impact-nba-rim-protectors-are-overrated

This article goes on a defensive study of Centers. Vuc no where to be found....

Here’s how other rim protectors stack up preventing shots at the rim when they are on the floor:

Joel Embiid - 100th percentile (Minus-7.9 percent)
Bam Adebayo - 98th percentile (Minus-5.5 percent)
Draymond Green - 95th percentile (Minus-4.7 percent)
Kristaps Porzingis - 95th percentile (Minus-4.5 percent)
Nikola Jokic - 93rd percentile (Minus-3.9 percent)
Rudy Gobert - 92nd percentile (Minus-3.8 percent)
Hassan Whiteside - 92nd percentile (Minus-3.6 percent)
Marc Gasol - 88th percentile (Minus-3.2 percent)
Brook Lopez - 75th percentile (Minus-1.8 percent)

Another area where Jokic shines defensively: defending without fouling and allowing free throws. Here’s that same group of rim protectors measured by their opponent free throw rate when the player is on the floor versus off it:

Joel Embiid - 85th percentile (Minus-2.5 percent)
Bam Adebayo - 70th percentile (Minus-1.4 percent)
Draymond Green - 24th percentile (Plus-2.1 percent)
Kristaps Porzingis - 58th percentile (Minus-0.6 percent)
Nikola Jokic - 82nd percentile (Minus-2.2 percent)
Rudy Gobert - 99th percentile (Minus-6.3 percent)
Hassan Whiteside - 91st percentile (Minus-3.1 percent)
Marc Gasol - 100th percentile (Minus-6.4 percent)
Brook Lopez - 96th percentile (Minus-4.6 percent)

Finally, turnovers. How great are these rim protectors at forcing the opposition into turnovers while on the floor?

Joel Embiid - 23rd percentile (Minus-1.1 percent)
Bam Adebayo - 21st percentile (Minus-1.1 percent)
Draymond Green - 42nd percentile (Minus-0.2 percent)
Kristaps Porzingis - 47th percentile (Minus-0.1 percent)
Nikola Jokic - 85th percentile (Plus-1.7 percent)
Rudy Gobert - 67th percentile (Plus-0.6 percent)
Hassan Whiteside - 42nd percentile (Minus-0.2 percent)
Marc Gasol - 83rd percentile (Plus-1.6 percent)
Brook Lopez - 30th percentile (Minus-0.7 percent)
Fultz, _____, Okeke, Isaac, Bamba. LET'S GO!
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#139 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 9:29 am

Folks, just reminder, be greatful for electricity. Spending 1 working day without it was biggest hell i went through.
I charged my phone via mobile charger while in same time hotspotting from mobile to laptop for internet :lol:

Oh and ofc in middle of a day battery on laptop died :D
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#140 » by zaymon » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:08 am

Skin wrote:
MoMM wrote:
Skin wrote:Vuc is elite if he can bring back an elite return. Therefore, not elite.

No team is winning based off a Center based offense. It's prehistoric. We're doing it all wrong.

Vuc signed with the best deal he could take + why would he give up the only gig in the league where the team is centered around him?

GM failures we can agree on. Henny's guys should've been long gone by now.

Jokic?

Jokic is not an exception because while his passing is fantastic, the real reason why his team is a contender with him at Center is because he provides defense.

"Jokic’s +3.03 Defensive Real Plus-Minus and his +1.17 Defensive Player Impact Plus-Minus place the Serbian center near the top of the NBA in both categories."
https://www.denverstiffs.com/2020/2/10/21131100/stat-of-the-week-nikola-jokic-defensive-impact-nba-rim-protectors-are-overrated

This article goes on a defensive study of Centers. Vuc no where to be found....

Here’s how other rim protectors stack up preventing shots at the rim when they are on the floor:

Joel Embiid - 100th percentile (Minus-7.9 percent)
Bam Adebayo - 98th percentile (Minus-5.5 percent)
Draymond Green - 95th percentile (Minus-4.7 percent)
Kristaps Porzingis - 95th percentile (Minus-4.5 percent)
Nikola Jokic - 93rd percentile (Minus-3.9 percent)
Rudy Gobert - 92nd percentile (Minus-3.8 percent)
Hassan Whiteside - 92nd percentile (Minus-3.6 percent)
Marc Gasol - 88th percentile (Minus-3.2 percent)
Brook Lopez - 75th percentile (Minus-1.8 percent)

Another area where Jokic shines defensively: defending without fouling and allowing free throws. Here’s that same group of rim protectors measured by their opponent free throw rate when the player is on the floor versus off it:

Joel Embiid - 85th percentile (Minus-2.5 percent)
Bam Adebayo - 70th percentile (Minus-1.4 percent)
Draymond Green - 24th percentile (Plus-2.1 percent)
Kristaps Porzingis - 58th percentile (Minus-0.6 percent)
Nikola Jokic - 82nd percentile (Minus-2.2 percent)
Rudy Gobert - 99th percentile (Minus-6.3 percent)
Hassan Whiteside - 91st percentile (Minus-3.1 percent)
Marc Gasol - 100th percentile (Minus-6.4 percent)
Brook Lopez - 96th percentile (Minus-4.6 percent)

Finally, turnovers. How great are these rim protectors at forcing the opposition into turnovers while on the floor?

Joel Embiid - 23rd percentile (Minus-1.1 percent)
Bam Adebayo - 21st percentile (Minus-1.1 percent)
Draymond Green - 42nd percentile (Minus-0.2 percent)
Kristaps Porzingis - 47th percentile (Minus-0.1 percent)
Nikola Jokic - 85th percentile (Plus-1.7 percent)
Rudy Gobert - 67th percentile (Plus-0.6 percent)
Hassan Whiteside - 42nd percentile (Minus-0.2 percent)
Marc Gasol - 83rd percentile (Plus-1.6 percent)
Brook Lopez - 30th percentile (Minus-0.7 percent)

Your on/off numbers are great, but it doesnt change fact that Vucevic is a better rim protector 61 vs 64 dfg% at the rim. Also Vucevic commits less fouls 2.2 vs 3.0. So you just made a case for Vucevic in reality......
Ps. Neither of them is a great defensive player.
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