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The Offseason thread

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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#141 » by Skin » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:31 am

TheGlyde wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
TheGlyde wrote:

Trade Evan for what/who? Playing him for 2020-21 and letting him walk at the end of the season in FA may give us cap space (assuming the CBA isnt torn up and/or the cap number isnt brought down drastically due to no fans).

Trading him for another (non expiring) player and/or a 2021 draft pick would have money on the cap or a cap hold from the pick, and mean less money in FA.

Oh, and if Evan walks at the end of 2020-21 for nothing and you don't take on a contract back for him, and we extend Markelle and Isaac for say, $25million per year combined (bargain, right?)... Add Okeke and #15 this year and we are at ~$106million committed salary, and that is if we don't resign DJ, MCW, Birch, Ennis, Iwundu or Clark (and only sign G-Leaguers/Min guys to replace those 6 guys on the bench).

So we are at $106million in committed salary, with no bench and a salary cap that this year was $109million and could easily shrink.

And lets be real, even if we had unlimited cap space, Paul, Lebron, Kawhi are not signing here.

For Lowry, Hayward, DeRozen or Gobert, they all make at least 26million currently, so you are going to have to gut the team to somehow find the max to offer them, and even if you somehow do, you then have to hope Lowry isn't further on the decline, Hayward isn't playing cards with Isaac on the Injured list, DeRozen can shoot more than 20 feet?

Gobert would be a nice pickup but the guy is talking about a super max from Utah, he isn't coming to Orlando for less than the max and I don't see how we find that space.


That is depressing to hear. So what should we do, in your opinion? So that we can have a future of contention


We are in a tough spot, and over the next year or two I think the best we can realistically hope for is incremental improvements.

1. As I said earlier in this thread, I think Evan opts in and you look to trade him if you can get one of these;
- A younger player with potential (think how we got Evan for Afflalo etc)
- A player who is as good a shooter who doesn't need to dominate the ball
- A better playmaker
But, it has to be on a contract that doesn't handcuff the team down the line, which is not easy.

If you can't get one of the above and the Magic are in playoff contention, rather than make a bad trade they may just ride Fournier out all the way to the end of his contract and try to replace him through the draft/MLE and/or hope by then other scorers have developed.

2. Keep Vuc. As I have said recently in posts the end goal is for the team to make enough money that it doesn't become a money sink for the DeVos family and sold to another city. Vuc keeps us in playoff contention and the right moves and player development around him could improve the team overall.

3. Keep Gordon for now. If Okeke is as good as we need him to be, and Aminu is better than this season, then look to move AG at the trade deadline. Again though, if we are in the playoff hunt, and/or Okeke isn't ready, the Magic may stand pat until Isaac proves he can play.

4. Get some real player development staff in here to get Okeke and #15 off on the right foot, Markelle's 3 point game cooking and a big man coach suited for the modern NBA to help Bamba become servicable.

5. Unless you use #15 on a PG, whoever you bring in to backup Markelle needs to be on a 1-2 year deal (not opposed to it being DJ or MCW). If it is a FA, do not give them this full MLE 4 year garbage they gave Aminu, because if Markelle develops as hoped they backup PG might only be playing < 15mins.

6. Take a punt on Isaac's health and try and extend him cheap now while he is injured, hope for the best, and if he goes down again, well, at least his contract isn't a team killer.

7. The rest of the players, take them or leave them, look for cheap buys like Ennis/Clark and don't take on any bad contracts.

So basically, I am saying in a perfect world we move Evan for someone who is younger but becomes better, we move AG for value/youth at the deadline because Okeke/Aminu are playing well, Markelle and Bamba develop well and Vuc carries over his bubble play to next season...

To me that's the best we can hope for.

Is this really the best you could hope for OR is this the best you feel like you can expect to get out of your depressed view of how the Magic operate?

I really don't blame you if it's the latter.

The problem I see with it, is that neither winning or development are priorities. Staying afloat as a business is the main objective.

Well, I hope for more.... and I don't think it's honestly that hard to do. The draw back will be short term losing in hopes of long term winning. Our cap should be reserved for resigning our own guys, not chasing FAs. Chasing a star FA miiiiiiiiight be an option if we ever get to the point were we need to get over the hump into true contention and that's waaaaay down the line.

1) Trade Fournier. Additions by subtraction, imo. I even don't mind taking on a bad contract if a young player or nice draft asset is attached to it. A lot of teams will want cap space in 2021 so his expiring contract could be extremely useful to teams chasing any big named FAs. That's obviously not us, so taking on cap at the benefit of acquiring young talent is a fine exchange. I disagree with any plan that brings us Lowry, Hayward, DeRozen or Gobert, etc. Our cap needs to be preserved for our renewing rookie contracts.

Example: Nets were able to get D'Angelo Russell for taking on Mozgov from the Lakers. Lakers proceeded to sign Lebron.

If a scenario like this is not available, then acquiring a TPE (like Golden St's $17M TPE) or using him to move around in the draft is preferred. If we really are stuck with him, then bench his ass, make him unhappy and create a situation where he would force a trade or buy out his contract.

2) Keep Gordon. Due to Isaac's injury, I'm more interested in keeping Gordon around at least through next season. After that we can have discussions. But if Oubre is on the table, pull the trigger.

3) I get it. Vuc is not going anywhere. But hopefully that's until Bamba gets his feet under him. As soon as he can handle 25-30 mpg, Vuc goes on the trade block. Bamba I don't care if Vuc averages 30 ppg and Bamba averages 13 ppg. The rim protection is the key. Offense can finally dig itself out of the 1990's.

4) Explore trade options for Ross and Aminu. Expirings, young player gambles or draft assets.

5) Draft a Guard at 15.

6) Keep developing youth. Make them the priorities. Game plan for them. Give them important roles. Let them work through their mistakes. Maintain a balanced roster. Move on from young guys who don't progress (ala Nicholson, Payton, Hezonja). Keep churnin' and burnin' until the cream rises to the top. Maintain cap to keep the ones we need to. No wasting money on FAs who will interfere with playing time because coach thinks a 1st round playoff exits are like gold (no more the likes of Jeff Green, Afflalo, Jason Smith, Ben Gordon, Willie Green, CJ Watson, blah blah blah).

7) When we have a solid core of talented youth, figure out a way to go over the top with a big name add. Chase the chip.
Fultz, _____, Okeke, Isaac, Bamba. LET'S GO!
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#142 » by Skybox » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:53 am

I really want to see them use whatever reasonable combo of vets for Wiggins and #2 (or even #1). Our best shot at long term dramatic evolution/youth movement. It just seems doable, which is unusual, based on relative timetables. If we catch lightning, next year is the feel good story in the league, with Fultz, Wigg and Chuma starring (along with whoever stays). I’d also try to keep 15 out of the trade to add young depth/upside. Then, in 2 years, a healthy, economically extended Isaac returns along with a high ‘21 pick OR a surprisingly improved team.

Wiggins contract is huge but they also have the TPE, so, in return for improved win-now talent in bunches, GSW could actually take back more $$$. They can have Ag, Evan, TRoss or Aminu (any 3-I’d prefer to keep Ross), or some combo with Vuc as the centerpiece if needed. We get #2, Wiggins, Paschall. They’re so teasingly close to a ring and so financially sound that GSW is exact opposite of our situation. We need to save money today, bet on the future, take chances on upside. I’d swing away at 15 for upside too-my choice is Maxey, but there are lots of interesting guys-some will be great, many will not. I’m honestly ready for a more exciting creative coach, but okay with Cliff if he’s tasked with development over wins (both would be great but...). I don’t think that’s Cliff though and I don’t blame him.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#143 » by Skybox » Fri Sep 4, 2020 10:56 am

Skybox wrote:I really want to see them use whatever reasonable combo of vets for Wiggins and #2 (or even #1). Our best shot at long term dramatic evolution/youth movement. It just seems doable, which is unusual, based on relative timetables. If we catch lightning, next year is the feel good story in the league, with Fultz, Wigg and Chuma starring (along with whoever stays). I’d also try to keep 15 out of the trade to add young depth/upside. Then, in 2 years, a healthy, economically extended Isaac returns along with a high ‘21 pick OR a surprisingly improved team.

Wiggins contract is huge but they also have the TPE, so, in return for improved win-now talent in bunches, GSW could actually take back more $$$. They can have Ag, Evan, TRoss or Aminu (any 3-I’d prefer to keep Ross), or some combo with Vuc as the centerpiece if needed. We get #2, Wiggins, Paschall. They’re so teasingly close to a ring and so financially sound that GSW is exact opposite of our situation. We need to save money today, bet on the future, take chances on upside. I’d swing away at 15 for upside too-my choice is Maxey, but there are lots of interesting guys-some will be great, many will not. I’m honestly ready for a more exciting creative coach, but okay with Cliff if he’s tasked with development over wins (both would be great but...). I don’t think that’s Cliff though and I don’t blame him.


This is more of a pivot than a tank job although we likely take a step back-but not for a five year rebuild.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#144 » by MoMM » Fri Sep 4, 2020 4:57 pm

Skybox wrote:I really want to see them use whatever reasonable combo of vets for Wiggins and #2 (or even #1). Our best shot at long term dramatic evolution/youth movement. It just seems doable, which is unusual, based on relative timetables. If we catch lightning, next year is the feel good story in the league, with Fultz, Wigg and Chuma starring (along with whoever stays). I’d also try to keep 15 out of the trade to add young depth/upside. Then, in 2 years, a healthy, economically extended Isaac returns along with a high ‘21 pick OR a surprisingly improved team.

Wiggins contract is huge but they also have the TPE, so, in return for improved win-now talent in bunches, GSW could actually take back more $$$. They can have Ag, Evan, TRoss or Aminu (any 3-I’d prefer to keep Ross), or some combo with Vuc as the centerpiece if needed. We get #2, Wiggins, Paschall. They’re so teasingly close to a ring and so financially sound that GSW is exact opposite of our situation. We need to save money today, bet on the future, take chances on upside. I’d swing away at 15 for upside too-my choice is Maxey, but there are lots of interesting guys-some will be great, many will not. I’m honestly ready for a more exciting creative coach, but okay with Cliff if he’s tasked with development over wins (both would be great but...). I don’t think that’s Cliff though and I don’t blame him.

TPE can only be traded for 1 player.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#145 » by Skybox » Fri Sep 4, 2020 7:42 pm

MoMM wrote:
Skybox wrote:I really want to see them use whatever reasonable combo of vets for Wiggins and #2 (or even #1). Our best shot at long term dramatic evolution/youth movement. It just seems doable, which is unusual, based on relative timetables. If we catch lightning, next year is the feel good story in the league, with Fultz, Wigg and Chuma starring (along with whoever stays). I’d also try to keep 15 out of the trade to add young depth/upside. Then, in 2 years, a healthy, economically extended Isaac returns along with a high ‘21 pick OR a surprisingly improved team.

Wiggins contract is huge but they also have the TPE, so, in return for improved win-now talent in bunches, GSW could actually take back more $$$. They can have Ag, Evan, TRoss or Aminu (any 3-I’d prefer to keep Ross), or some combo with Vuc as the centerpiece if needed. We get #2, Wiggins, Paschall. They’re so teasingly close to a ring and so financially sound that GSW is exact opposite of our situation. We need to save money today, bet on the future, take chances on upside. I’d swing away at 15 for upside too-my choice is Maxey, but there are lots of interesting guys-some will be great, many will not. I’m honestly ready for a more exciting creative coach, but okay with Cliff if he’s tasked with development over wins (both would be great but...). I don’t think that’s Cliff though and I don’t blame him.

TPE can only be traded for 1 player.


Oh right...well they could just take Evan for the TPE as a wink wink side deal
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#146 » by fendilim » Sat Sep 5, 2020 2:24 am

I honestly doubt any big name free agent would sign with us in 2021 unless, we make big improvements next season or it is a massive overpay.

I highly doubt we are going up and I dont want to overpay.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#147 » by Bensational » Sat Sep 5, 2020 6:35 am

fendilim wrote:I honestly doubt any big name free agent would sign with us in 2021 unless, we make big improvements next season or it is a massive overpay.

I highly doubt we are going up and I dont want to overpay.


Depending on what plays out in Milwaukee, I think Giannis is anyone's game, as long as they have a 1b to partner with him. A closer.

So if we can consolidate all our pieces into just one of those guys, we could have the basis of something to offer up to him when FA comes.

Who that guy is? No idea. Gotta wait to see what Milwaukee does, and then which other big names become available between now and then.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#148 » by pepe1991 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 7:45 am

Bensational wrote:
fendilim wrote:I honestly doubt any big name free agent would sign with us in 2021 unless, we make big improvements next season or it is a massive overpay.

I highly doubt we are going up and I dont want to overpay.


Depending on what plays out in Milwaukee, I think Giannis is anyone's game, as long as they have a 1b to partner with him. A closer.

So if we can consolidate all our pieces into just one of those guys, we could have the basis of something to offer up to him when FA comes.

Who that guy is? No idea. Gotta wait to see what Milwaukee does, and then which other big names become available between now and then.


Some executive said that he thinks Giannis is joining Heat ( 4 days ago)
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#149 » by Xatticus » Sat Sep 5, 2020 8:13 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
fendilim wrote:I honestly doubt any big name free agent would sign with us in 2021 unless, we make big improvements next season or it is a massive overpay.

I highly doubt we are going up and I dont want to overpay.


Depending on what plays out in Milwaukee, I think Giannis is anyone's game, as long as they have a 1b to partner with him. A closer.

So if we can consolidate all our pieces into just one of those guys, we could have the basis of something to offer up to him when FA comes.

Who that guy is? No idea. Gotta wait to see what Milwaukee does, and then which other big names become available between now and then.


Some executive said that he thinks Giannis is joining Heat ( 4 days ago)


That would be such an amazing fit, but for Butler’s age. If I’m Giannis, I’d trust Riley to maintain a roster capable of competing for titles. The situation in the East would seem hopeless for everyone but Boston. How the hell would you score against that team?
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#150 » by pepe1991 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 8:34 am

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Depending on what plays out in Milwaukee, I think Giannis is anyone's game, as long as they have a 1b to partner with him. A closer.

So if we can consolidate all our pieces into just one of those guys, we could have the basis of something to offer up to him when FA comes.

Who that guy is? No idea. Gotta wait to see what Milwaukee does, and then which other big names become available between now and then.


Some executive said that he thinks Giannis is joining Heat ( 4 days ago)


That would be such an amazing fit, but for Butler’s age. If I’m Giannis, I’d trust Riley to maintain a roster capable of competing for titles. The situation in the East would seem hopeless for everyone but Boston. How the hell would you score against that team?


Heat on East, Warriors on West. Klay, Curry, and Giannis ? Man that's some fire power ...
wild card would be Houston and Dallas.
Doncic/Harden pick&roll with Giannis... damn ...
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#151 » by Bensational » Sat Sep 5, 2020 11:49 pm

Ok, I'm going to make a hard pitch on a couple of wings we should target, one of which I think many of you will be against.

Caris Levert and Andrew Wiggins.

Here's my case; a few things both of those guys would give us, which we could use more of:

- Driving game
When looking for a scorer, Wiggins offers up a driving and slashing wing who can attack the rim all night and maintain solid numbers whilst getting to the line.

Wiggins is doing well on both his efficiency and volume, and his efficiency increased at GSW.

Post ASB, Levert was on fire as the Nets lead guard and scorer, and he was much more of a single engine than any playmaker on our team.

Fournier is overall more efficient on drives than either player, but he is a low usage option. Defenses can adapt and stop it if they're so inclined. Wiggins and Levert offer players who can run that play over and over, and keep generating offense from it.



- Clutch performance
Surprisingly, Wiggins performed better in the clutch this season than most on our team. The above list is ranked by FGAs/g.

Levert, 2.3fgas, shooting 50%, 0.8 3fgas shooting 46.7%, 3.3ppg
Dinwiddie, 2.3fgas, shooting 39.2%, 0.7 3fga shooting 8%, 3ppg
Hield, 1.9fgas, shooting 39.1%, 1.3 3fgas shooting 30%, 2.4ppg
Wiggins, 1.8fgas, shooting 45%, 0.7 3fga shooting 27%, 2.5ppg
Vuc, 1.7fgas, shooting 37.5%, 0.6 3fga shooting 31%, 1.6ppg
Fournier, 1.8fgas, shooting 27.7%, 0.9 3fga shooting 22%, 1.4ppg
Fultz, 1.4fgas, shooting 53.7%, no 3's, 1.8ppg
Ross, 1.1fgas, shooting 31.3%, 1.1 3fga shooting 33%, 1.3ppg
Gordon, 0.9fgas, shooting 58.3%, 0.5 3fga shooting 46.5%, 1.6ppg

Fultz is the standout here for efficiency. That's something promising to build upon. Levert is the next big impact but high efficiency player. Dinwiddie is ok but not efficient.Wiggins, surprisingly, has the next most impressive numbers. His 3pt shooting is poor, which means it's also dragging down how efficient his 2pt shooting is. He was also doing that with a USG of 32. For context, Dinwiddie USG 33, Hield 29, Fournier and Levert 28, Vuc 23, Fultz 20.

So WIggins and Levert were able to uphold high(er) levels of efficiency when under high USG. This is something our team doesn't have other than a budding Fultz.



- Pick & Roll ballhandling option

Wiggins has increased his PnR attempts substantially this year. He's adding another staple to his scoring toolkit. Levert, too. They need to improve efficiency, but they are trending upwards in both volume and efficiency year in and year out for the past few years.

Fournier is again more efficient on this play, but on fewer touches yet again. He's a different calibre of player. Wiggins and Levert seem to be more of that scoring workhorse mentality.






THE PROPOSAL

I don't think we'd be able to swipe Levert from Brooklyn, but if Wiggins is a victim of the cap crunch and we can get him for Fournier + Aminu... well, I jump on it. I think somewhere between the pool of Fournier, Ross, Aminu and maaaaybe Bamba, we should have a package that can affordably land us Wiggins.

My rationale being that I think Wiggins is close to adding a couple new, reliable tricks which will help elevate him a little more. I don't see him as anything more than DeRozan 2.0, to be honest, but even DeRozan can be useful. Mostly, Wiggins is the kind of player who we can buy low on, and inflate his value for later returns. I think he poised to have an Oladipo-ish wake up now that he's been traded. He comes with the advantage of prior experience with a skilled big, and Cliff knows how to get players into some of their most efficient spots. He's another quality reclamation project.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#152 » by swarlesbarkley » Sun Sep 6, 2020 1:07 am

I'm on board for landing Wiggins somehow. Dude has always had skill. We could be the redemption squad with Wiggins and Fultz. But then we also need a dog. Wiggins, Fultz, and Vuc are like the the most docile NBA players. Maybe Chuma? We need a Matt Barnes guy.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#153 » by Kent » Sun Sep 6, 2020 1:11 am

I say stay the course.

One guy — one — can launch your team 4-8 spots in the standings.

Look at what the Heat did with Butler.

I say we get smarter about our payroll handling, stay competitive (maintaining a spot in the postseason), and, well, get lucky.

That is, sign guys to smart contracts, draft smart, and put yourself in a position to bring a guy in that can move you up 4-8 spots.

Because getting lucky is at least 50% of success in professional sports. But you have to put yourself in a position to do something with it. (See Dallas.)
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#154 » by MagicFan101 » Sun Sep 6, 2020 1:51 am

If the Bucks get knocked out in the second round the Warriors might smell blood and start clearing cap for Giannis.

I don’t HATE Wiggins the player the way many here do but that contract terrifies me. Still, if they call us and ask with an offer of:

#2 + Wiggins = Gordon + Ross + #15

I have to say yes.

Edwards would top my board but as long as they get a guard / wing I will trust their judgement.

Let’s just have some change!
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#155 » by TheGlyde » Sun Sep 6, 2020 2:31 am

Skin wrote:
TheGlyde wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
That is depressing to hear. So what should we do, in your opinion? So that we can have a future of contention


We are in a tough spot, and over the next year or two I think the best we can realistically hope for is incremental improvements.

1. As I said earlier in this thread, I think Evan opts in and you look to trade him if you can get one of these;
- A younger player with potential (think how we got Evan for Afflalo etc)
- A player who is as good a shooter who doesn't need to dominate the ball
- A better playmaker
But, it has to be on a contract that doesn't handcuff the team down the line, which is not easy.

If you can't get one of the above and the Magic are in playoff contention, rather than make a bad trade they may just ride Fournier out all the way to the end of his contract and try to replace him through the draft/MLE and/or hope by then other scorers have developed.

2. Keep Vuc. As I have said recently in posts the end goal is for the team to make enough money that it doesn't become a money sink for the DeVos family and sold to another city. Vuc keeps us in playoff contention and the right moves and player development around him could improve the team overall.

3. Keep Gordon for now. If Okeke is as good as we need him to be, and Aminu is better than this season, then look to move AG at the trade deadline. Again though, if we are in the playoff hunt, and/or Okeke isn't ready, the Magic may stand pat until Isaac proves he can play.

4. Get some real player development staff in here to get Okeke and #15 off on the right foot, Markelle's 3 point game cooking and a big man coach suited for the modern NBA to help Bamba become servicable.

5. Unless you use #15 on a PG, whoever you bring in to backup Markelle needs to be on a 1-2 year deal (not opposed to it being DJ or MCW). If it is a FA, do not give them this full MLE 4 year garbage they gave Aminu, because if Markelle develops as hoped they backup PG might only be playing < 15mins.

6. Take a punt on Isaac's health and try and extend him cheap now while he is injured, hope for the best, and if he goes down again, well, at least his contract isn't a team killer.

7. The rest of the players, take them or leave them, look for cheap buys like Ennis/Clark and don't take on any bad contracts.

So basically, I am saying in a perfect world we move Evan for someone who is younger but becomes better, we move AG for value/youth at the deadline because Okeke/Aminu are playing well, Markelle and Bamba develop well and Vuc carries over his bubble play to next season...

To me that's the best we can hope for.

Is this really the best you could hope for OR is this the best you feel like you can expect to get out of your depressed view of how the Magic operate?

I really don't blame you if it's the latter.

The problem I see with it, is that neither winning or development are priorities. Staying afloat as a business is the main objective.

Well, I hope for more.... and I don't think it's honestly that hard to do. The draw back will be short term losing in hopes of long term winning. Our cap should be reserved for resigning our own guys, not chasing FAs. Chasing a star FA miiiiiiiiight be an option if we ever get to the point were we need to get over the hump into true contention and that's waaaaay down the line.

1) Trade Fournier. Additions by subtraction, imo. I even don't mind taking on a bad contract if a young player or nice draft asset is attached to it. A lot of teams will want cap space in 2021 so his expiring contract could be extremely useful to teams chasing any big named FAs. That's obviously not us, so taking on cap at the benefit of acquiring young talent is a fine exchange. I disagree with any plan that brings us Lowry, Hayward, DeRozen or Gobert, etc. Our cap needs to be preserved for our renewing rookie contracts.

Example: Nets were able to get D'Angelo Russell for taking on Mozgov from the Lakers. Lakers proceeded to sign Lebron.

If a scenario like this is not available, then acquiring a TPE (like Golden St's $17M TPE) or using him to move around in the draft is preferred. If we really are stuck with him, then bench his ass, make him unhappy and create a situation where he would force a trade or buy out his contract.

2) Keep Gordon. Due to Isaac's injury, I'm more interested in keeping Gordon around at least through next season. After that we can have discussions. But if Oubre is on the table, pull the trigger.

3) I get it. Vuc is not going anywhere. But hopefully that's until Bamba gets his feet under him. As soon as he can handle 25-30 mpg, Vuc goes on the trade block. Bamba I don't care if Vuc averages 30 ppg and Bamba averages 13 ppg. The rim protection is the key. Offense can finally dig itself out of the 1990's.

4) Explore trade options for Ross and Aminu. Expirings, young player gambles or draft assets.

5) Draft a Guard at 15.

6) Keep developing youth. Make them the priorities. Game plan for them. Give them important roles. Let them work through their mistakes. Maintain a balanced roster. Move on from young guys who don't progress (ala Nicholson, Payton, Hezonja). Keep churnin' and burnin' until the cream rises to the top. Maintain cap to keep the ones we need to. No wasting money on FAs who will interfere with playing time because coach thinks a 1st round playoff exits are like gold (no more the likes of Jeff Green, Afflalo, Jason Smith, Ben Gordon, Willie Green, CJ Watson, blah blah blah).

7) When we have a solid core of talented youth, figure out a way to go over the top with a big name add. Chase the chip.


I actually don't think our plans are all that different?

I said try to move Evan and AG, you say Evan and Ross/Aminu.

I think AG has more trade value, but again only look to move him if Okeke is solid and Aminu is better.

The rest as I said I think is fairly similar, but be prepared to put Bamba into your #6 clause (move on from young guys who don't progress).
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#156 » by pepe1991 » Sun Sep 6, 2020 7:08 am

For love of basketball, has any of you actually watch Wiggins play rather just look at stats?

This is what writers said about Wiggins basketball skills over years

Zach Lowe, 2018

Motion-tracking cameras recorded Wiggins "running fast" during only 4.8 percent of his time on the floor, one of the 10 lowest such figures in the league, per Second Spectrum. (Almost everyone in his slowpoke vicinity is a plodding 7-footer.) He has shown no aptitude on pull-up 3s, or on any sort of 3-pointer outside the corners -- and he doesn't shoot enough from the corners. Nobody guards him away from the ball.
Wiggins hit 32 percent of his long 2-pointers last season. He has never drained better than 38 percent in any season. There may be no more treasonous combination among midrange aficionados of frequency and inaccuracy.
He has never had the impact he should on defense. He doesn't rebound, force turnovers, or contest shots. He is a bystander.

He could be more on a team that played faster, with more shooting and fewer ball-handlers. But unless Wiggins improves, that team would be bad.

At some point, the tools and the highlights have to translate into something better than "smaller Rudy Gay."


This was in times when T wolves had Butler and team wasn't even that bad. Wiggins was still abysmal.


This is what T wolves writer on SB nation wrote about him in article titled : " The sad demise of Andrew Wiggins"

Wiggins is 47th amongst NBA starters in usage. Among those 47 players, Wiggins is dead last in field goal percentage, below the likes of Josh Jackson and Dennis Schroeder. He has taken a major step back as a free-throw shooter too, which is worrying for a guard who was supposed to be built on getting to the line with a variety of finishing moves and sheer power.

Among the 117 players attempting at least ten shots per game, Wiggins is 111th in field goal percentage. If you change the statistic to true shooting percentage which takes shot selection into account, Wiggins’ drops to 116th, with only rookie Kevin Knox below him.

Wiggins is also posting his career lows in win shares, offensive box-plus minus and VORP. Not only has Wiggins’ game failed to translate to wins and overall value, but he has been terrible to watch as he constantly makes poor decisions in the half court.

Wiggins is actually shooting threes at a career high rate. The issue for Wiggins though, has been that he has not shot the two efficiently enough. Wiggins is shooting just 34% from mid range, and he is shooting just 29% on long twos. Those two shot ranges account for nearly a quarter of his overall shot attempts, which explains why his shooting stats and overall metrics are so bad.

The major problem I have with Wiggins is not that he struggles as a shooter. I still believe there is a place for a wing in the modern NBA who purely attacks downhill. The issue is that he is simply not good downhill. The conclusion I have come to is that he is not an NBA calibre dribbler. I thought for a long time the mid-range jumpers were just a mental thing. But in reality, the bloated mid-range usage is a result of his inability to consistently attack downhill and blow by perimeter defenders.



I see zero reasons why we should single out 12 games of Warrios and pretend he is "improved". Most of the nights in that 12 games, team wasn't even competitive. it's just him doing more of stuff he did for Wovles, empty stat padding. For example in game they lost to Wizards he had plus minus of - 31. .... buuut he had 27 points so it doesn't look that awful.

There is zero evidence, and massive amount of counter evidence that Wiggins is positive player in any way, shape of form.
He can't dribble, his "playmaking", comes with a price, it's him not passing but trying to score on his own.
For example, during 12 games for Warriors he shot 36% FG, overall as scorer in pick&roll for a season he shot 41% on pathetic 44% eFG.

He never in his career averaged more than 5 rebounds, while being 6'8, he never improved his FT% while drawing fouls could be viewed as only positive aspect of his game. We can pretend he improve as 3 point shooter where in reality defense of a teams figured he is not worth paying too much attention to.
Funniest part about his shooting is how bad he is. Last year he couldn't even reach league average when he was wide open, he shot only 35%, where league average on all 3 point shots was 36%
This year he finally menaged to shoot 38% wide open. Do i need to say it's still actually well below average for open shots? :lol:

But where Wiggins -bust star shines the brightest it's mid range and defense.

In 2017- five thirty eight named him " Least defenive player of a year"

Possession by possession, there are a few defenders who are as bad as Wiggins. When Wiggins contests a shot, opponents have a 56.1 effective field goal percentage; when they are unguarded, they have a 56.4 eFG percentage. Fundamentally, getting a shot up against Andrew Wiggins is the same as getting an open shot.


MId range game. He is historiclly bad mid range shooter who takes almost 50% of his shots from that area for career. We talk about 34% mid range shooter. For example, Rubio who is poster boy of "guards who can't shoot" still shoots 37% from mid range.
He is worst among the worst.

When you put everything on the table, without even going into depths how he is worst nba contract, you get player that sucks life out of defense, is ball watching, lazy , challenged, has no BBIQ and isn't even that young. What's selling point of him other than notion that 10 years ago somebody compared him with Kobe and Lebron?

His body is body of evidence ( pun intended ) how much he cares about basketball. He entered nba being skinny guy that couldn't take contact, 6 years later, standing at 6'8, he never added muscles to be better. Matter of fact he still is listed below 200 pounds.
Just lazy overpayed, overrated draft bust. Case closed.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#157 » by cedric76 » Sun Sep 6, 2020 7:57 am

The MOVE that needs to be made: Buy low on Jarret Culver

AG for Johnson+culver+#17



use #15 to gamble on kopusevski (keep him oversee)
use # 17 BPA
Let s focus on the big picture, in a few years our core should be:

Fultz
culver
chuma
JI
Mo
Prediction : weham will draft AARON NESMITH

AG for Johnson+culver+#17
use #17 to gamble on kopusevski (keep him oversee)


**** load of money under the cap for summer 2021

Core of the Future: Fultz, culver, chuma, JI, Mo, Kopusevski and AARON NESMITH
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#158 » by Airgordon00 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 12:10 am

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y55q4cbh

Massive 4 team trade that makes us immediate championship contenders in the east. Plus gives us flexibility with trades of Gordon or Fournier if he opts in. We would have to include multiple 1st rounders to get it done.

Magic in: Beal and Giannis

Bucks in: Bamba, Ross, Isaac, 15th pick and 2022 unprotected 1st.

Warriors: Vooch and magic 2024 top 5 protected 1st

Wizards: Wiggins, 2nd overall pick, and 3 future 2nd rd picks from the magic
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#159 » by MagicMatic » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:36 am

Kent wrote:I say stay the course.

One guy — one — can launch your team 4-8 spots in the standings.

Look at what the Heat did with Butler.

I say we get smarter about our payroll handling, stay competitive (maintaining a spot in the postseason), and, well, get lucky.

That is, sign guys to smart contracts, draft smart, and put yourself in a position to bring a guy in that can move you up 4-8 spots.

Because getting lucky is at least 50% of success in professional sports. But you have to put yourself in a position to do something with it. (See Dallas.)


Not to be a buzzkill, but when was the last time Orlando outright signed or acquired someone of anywhere remotely the same caliber as Jimmy Butler??? Definitely not in recent history. So, the plan you are suggesting is something requiring easily another 3-5 years added onto what we’ve already been doing.

Dallas tanked and landed Doncic via the draft. That’s hardly what you are suggesting.
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Re: The Offseason thread 

Post#160 » by cedric76 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 7:11 am

Airgordon00 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y55q4cbh

Massive 4 team trade that makes us immediate championship contenders in the east. Plus gives us flexibility with trades of Gordon or Fournier if he opts in. We would have to include multiple 1st rounders to get it done.

Magic in: Beal and Giannis

Bucks in: Bamba, Ross, Isaac, 15th pick and 2022 unprotected 1st.

Warriors: Vooch and magic 2024 top 5 protected 1st

Wizards: Wiggins, 2nd overall pick, and 3 future 2nd rd picks from the magic


Lol robbery
Prediction : weham will draft AARON NESMITH

AG for Johnson+culver+#17
use #17 to gamble on kopusevski (keep him oversee)


**** load of money under the cap for summer 2021

Core of the Future: Fultz, culver, chuma, JI, Mo, Kopusevski and AARON NESMITH

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