The Offseason thread

[MagicStarwipe]

We don't need to tank for better picks, we just need to draft better with the picks we're given. In the course of our rebuild we could have taken Giannis, or Gobert, or CJ, or LaVine, or Booker, or Siakam, or Mitchell, or SGA.

Even in our current form as a team teetering between the 10-17 picks, we could've been in position to take the likes of Giannis, Gobert, Siakam, Mitchell or SGA.

Put simply, we've not seen any additions from the last 3 drafts who look positioned to carry our future, and we're going to have to wait another 2 seasons to even see how close they can get.

WeHam need to get more aggressive in pursuing a draft star. That doesn't mean tanking, it just means doing a better job of the draft.

How many of those players you listed have what it takes to lead a team to a championship? I count 1.

[TheGlyde]

We don't need to tank for better picks, we just need to draft better with the picks we're given. In the course of our rebuild we could have taken Giannis, or Gobert, or CJ, or LaVine, or Booker, or Siakam, or Mitchell, or SGA.

Even in our current form as a team teetering between the 10-17 picks, we could've been in position to take the likes of Giannis, Gobert, Siakam, Mitchell or SGA.

Put simply, we've not seen any additions from the last 3 drafts who look positioned to carry our future, and we're going to have to wait another 2 seasons to even see how close they can get.

WeHam need to get more aggressive in pursuing a draft star. That doesn't mean tanking, it just means doing a better job of the draft.

How many of those players you listed have what it takes to lead a team to a championship? I count 1.

I love it how in this short term attention span era it's Championship or fail.

82 games is too many. 5 dribbles is too many. Let's just play 3 on 3 half court with a 10 second shot clock and 4 point line.

Imagine if the Utah Jazz were broken up in 1995 after their 2nd first round exit in 3 years...
"This Malone/Stockton/Hornacek core has peaked. they are all over 30, it is time to move them for picks and blow it up."

The same trio led the Jazz to back to back NBA finals in 1997 and 1998 as 34 & 35 year olds.

One team out of 30 wins the Championship.

One.

The other 29 teams are not failures needing to blow it up.

Only nine different franchses have won NBA titles since Michael Jordan freaking retired, and 4 of those 9 franchises were led by either Lebron or Kawhi.

I understand patience being worn thin by long term fans but some people need to let go of the title or bust philosophy.

That philosophy led to the Magic dumping Hedo after the 2009 Finals and bringing in Vince Carter to be a 'Kobe like scorer', and the team kept digging itself into a deeper hole and got worse each of the next 3 years until Dwight left.

We are a small market team. There are no free agents signing with the Magic that will lead the team to a Championship.

None.

Even if we traded for a player capable of leading this team to a Championship, they would probably refuse to play for the franchise and demand a move to a bigger market (Can you really see Giannis, Lebron etc playing in Orlando?).

Occasionally a small market team strikes gold in the lottery. Cleveland did it. Dallas did it. San Antonio did it. We did it already.

Twice.

What are the odds another generational talent drops into our laps?

The Denver/Utah/Toronto model is the only one proven to work for small market teams.

Make smart moves, small upgrades, don't take big risks, and hope for a lot of luck along the way.

Vuc is one of the most accomplished players in Magic franchise history. If he was on a team with TMac back in the day, or had Rashard Lewis, Hedo and Jameer around him, he's probably a widely celebrated fan favourite with some deep playoff runs.

Because he can't drag a roster full of overachieving, undertalented players to a better than .500 record by himself, he gets picked on for not being a rim protector, in a league that has restructured rules to make it a silly idea unless you have the natural athleticism and instinct.

I don't expect big moves. I don't expect to go from 8th seed to finals.

I hope, for small improvements year by year both in talent pool and quality of play. I saw that last year.

This year was a pandemic driven, injury riddled mess, and yeah, I wanted more from the season, and I want more next season, but my god... The Championship or bust brigade needs to come back inside off the ledge, because if you aren't going to jump you will be out there threatening to, for the next 30 years.

[MasterGMer]

We don't need to tank for better picks, we just need to draft better with the picks we're given. In the course of our rebuild we could have taken Giannis, or Gobert, or CJ, or LaVine, or Booker, or Siakam, or Mitchell, or SGA.

Even in our current form as a team teetering between the 10-17 picks, we could've been in position to take the likes of Giannis, Gobert, Siakam, Mitchell or SGA.

Put simply, we've not seen any additions from the last 3 drafts who look positioned to carry our future, and we're going to have to wait another 2 seasons to even see how close they can get.

WeHam need to get more aggressive in pursuing a draft star. That doesn't mean tanking, it just means doing a better job of the draft.

How many of those players you listed have what it takes to lead a team to a championship? I count 1.

I love it how in this short term attention span era it's Championship or fail.

82 games is too many. 5 dribbles is too many. Let's just play 3 on 3 half court with a 10 second shot clock and 4 point line.

Imagine if the Utah Jazz were broken up in 1995 after their 2nd first round exit in 3 years...
"This Malone/Stockton/Hornacek core has peaked. they are all over 30, it is time to move them for picks and blow it up."

The same trio led the Jazz to back to back NBA finals in 1997 and 1998 as 34 & 35 year olds.

One team out of 30 wins the Championship.

One.

The other 29 teams are not failures needing to blow it up.

Only nine different franchses have won NBA titles since Michael Jordan freaking retired, and 4 of those 9 franchises were led by either Lebron or Kawhi.

I understand patience being worn thin by long term fans but some people need to let go of the title or bust philosophy.

That philosophy led to the Magic dumping Hedo after the 2009 Finals and bringing in Vince Carter to be a 'Kobe like scorer', and the team kept digging itself into a deeper hole and got worse each of the next 3 years until Dwight left.

We are a small market team. There are no free agents signing with the Magic that will lead the team to a Championship.

None.

Even if we traded for a player capable of leading this team to a Championship, they would probably refuse to play for the franchise and demand a move to a bigger market (Can you really see Giannis, Lebron etc playing in Orlando?).

Occasionally a small market team strikes gold in the lottery. Cleveland did it. Dallas did it. San Antonio did it. We did it already.

Twice.

What are the odds another generational talent drops into our laps?

The Denver/Utah/Toronto model is the only one proven to work for small market teams.

Make smart moves, small upgrades, don't take big risks, and hope for a lot of luck along the way.

Vuc is one of the most accomplished players in Magic franchise history. If he was on a team with TMac back in the day, or had Rashard Lewis, Hedo and Jameer around him, he's probably a widely celebrated fan favourite with some deep playoff runs.

Because he can't drag a roster full of overachieving, undertalented players to a better than .500 record by himself, he gets picked on for not being a rim protector, in a league that has restructured rules to make it a silly idea unless you have the natural athleticism and instinct.

I don't expect big moves. I don't expect to go from 8th seed to finals.

I hope, for small improvements year by year both in talent pool and quality of play. I saw that last year.

This year was a pandemic driven, injury riddled mess, and yeah, I wanted more from the season, and I want more next season, but my god... The Championship or bust brigade needs to come back inside off the ledge, because if you aren't going to jump you will be out there threatening to, for the next 30 years.

I agree with most of what you said. It is not Championship or bust, but it is Championship or keep chasing Championship.

The reason why we went to complete rebuild after Dwight is for that reason, because without Dwight, Magic could never win a Championship. But I disagree with the strategy of complete torn down and trade all the assets or old players we had. It was a disaster and we still could not recover from those era TODAY.

Tanking won't work anymore and that is the new era. But I think from nowadays, we need to make incremental changes as time goes on. And that is why I agree with you. We need to draft smarter. We need to sign valuable players. We need veterans on the court and we need to develop our young players. For one goal: Chasing a Championship. NOT like before, complete torn down and tank. But keep chasing a Championship.

I think that is the only way it could work for Magic. BTW I agree with you but Championship is still the ultimate Goal! The whole objective on the first line is Championship and we need to keep chasing Championship

[MagicStarwipe]

We don't need to tank for better picks, we just need to draft better with the picks we're given. In the course of our rebuild we could have taken Giannis, or Gobert, or CJ, or LaVine, or Booker, or Siakam, or Mitchell, or SGA.

Even in our current form as a team teetering between the 10-17 picks, we could've been in position to take the likes of Giannis, Gobert, Siakam, Mitchell or SGA.

Put simply, we've not seen any additions from the last 3 drafts who look positioned to carry our future, and we're going to have to wait another 2 seasons to even see how close they can get.

WeHam need to get more aggressive in pursuing a draft star. That doesn't mean tanking, it just means doing a better job of the draft.

How many of those players you listed have what it takes to lead a team to a championship? I count 1.

I love it how in this short term attention span era it's Championship or fail.

82 games is too many. 5 dribbles is too many. Let's just play 3 on 3 half court with a 10 second shot clock and 4 point line.

Imagine if the Utah Jazz were broken up in 1995 after their 2nd first round exit in 3 years...
"This Malone/Stockton/Hornacek core has peaked. they are all over 30, it is time to move them for picks and blow it up."

The same trio led the Jazz to back to back NBA finals in 1997 and 1998 as 34 & 35 year olds.

One team out of 30 wins the Championship.

One.

The other 29 teams are not failures needing to blow it up.

Only nine different franchses have won NBA titles since Michael Jordan freaking retired, and 4 of those 9 franchises were led by either Lebron or Kawhi.

I understand patience being worn thin by long term fans but some people need to let go of the title or bust philosophy.

That philosophy led to the Magic dumping Hedo after the 2009 Finals and bringing in Vince Carter to be a 'Kobe like scorer', and the team kept digging itself into a deeper hole and got worse each of the next 3 years until Dwight left.

We are a small market team. There are no free agents signing with the Magic that will lead the team to a Championship.

None.

Even if we traded for a player capable of leading this team to a Championship, they would probably refuse to play for the franchise and demand a move to a bigger market (Can you really see Giannis, Lebron etc playing in Orlando?).

Occasionally a small market team strikes gold in the lottery. Cleveland did it. Dallas did it. San Antonio did it. We did it already.

Twice.

What are the odds another generational talent drops into our laps?

The Denver/Utah/Toronto model is the only one proven to work for small market teams.

Make smart moves, small upgrades, don't take big risks, and hope for a lot of luck along the way.

Vuc is one of the most accomplished players in Magic franchise history. If he was on a team with TMac back in the day, or had Rashard Lewis, Hedo and Jameer around him, he's probably a widely celebrated fan favourite with some deep playoff runs.

Because he can't drag a roster full of overachieving, undertalented players to a better than .500 record by himself, he gets picked on for not being a rim protector, in a league that has restructured rules to make it a silly idea unless you have the natural athleticism and instinct.

I don't expect big moves. I don't expect to go from 8th seed to finals.

I hope, for small improvements year by year both in talent pool and quality of play. I saw that last year.

This year was a pandemic driven, injury riddled mess, and yeah, I wanted more from the season, and I want more next season, but my god... The Championship or bust brigade needs to come back inside off the ledge, because if you aren't going to jump you will be out there threatening to, for the next 30 years.

My only point is, if the argument is that you can build a contender without picking at the top end of the draft, or acquiring a player that was picked at the top end of the draft, how many times has that actually happened? It's extremely rare. You ultimately need to add that superstar player at some point. The goal is to build a contending team after all.

I think your point about Vuc is way off too. Did you watch this team during your board hiatus? No shade, just a genuine question. "Surrounding" Vuc would not lead to any deep playoff runs. If Vuc is your 4th option then maybe you can have some deep runs with him. Vuc isn't really that "accomplished". He's been one of the only decent offensive players on the team in the most prolonged and darkest era of our existence as a franchise. For that reason he's been able to accumolate stats and rise up the all time Magic leaderboards. I don't foresee anybody other than the biggest Vuc homers looking at him as some sort of Magic legend in the future, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Bensational]

We don't need to tank for better picks, we just need to draft better with the picks we're given. In the course of our rebuild we could have taken Giannis, or Gobert, or CJ, or LaVine, or Booker, or Siakam, or Mitchell, or SGA.

Even in our current form as a team teetering between the 10-17 picks, we could've been in position to take the likes of Giannis, Gobert, Siakam, Mitchell or SGA.

Put simply, we've not seen any additions from the last 3 drafts who look positioned to carry our future, and we're going to have to wait another 2 seasons to even see how close they can get.

WeHam need to get more aggressive in pursuing a draft star. That doesn't mean tanking, it just means doing a better job of the draft.

How many of those players you listed have what it takes to lead a team to a championship? I count 1.

You could use those pieces to construct a championship team though. Whether it's with them and adding better free agents, or if it's by trading them. LAC just did both of those things, using SGA to trade for PG and signing Kawhi as a result. They're now contending.

Denver is a team I haven't even touched on with Jokic, Porter and Bol (they could've also had Mitchell but they traded that pick to Utah). All from our range presently. I'd consider Denver a very real contender.

I personally consider Utah a contender. Not dynasty level, but possibly like the Dirk-Dallas teams that always stuck around and managed to get to the finals twice and win on championship.

But removing them, you've still got 3 current contenders built on the same model. Possibly 4 if you count Toronto as the defending champs who were built the same way.

Point is, we're not hitting on our draft picks substantially enough.

[Skin]

People keep saying tanking won't work but the bottom 3 teams are all picking in the top 5 this year. *shrugs*

[Nyce_1]

I'd watch Fultz, Wiggins, Okeke, AG, and Bamba next year. We'd lose a lot but we'd also probably have a lot of fun.

I'd be excited about this team. It means our style of play is different. I love Vuc but tired of seeing our offense ran through him.

[pepe1991]

People keep saying tanking won't work but the bottom 3 teams are all picking in the top 5 this year. *shrugs*

Love how you didn't mention what happend to other top 3 worst teams to fit your agenda.

Hawks ,4th worst record- drafts 6th
Pistons, 5th worst record drafts 7th
Knicks, 6th worst record drafts 8th

There is also whole issue this year with uneven number of games teams played. Cavs and Minny both won 19 games, one team played 64 other 65.
Their win percentage difference is 0,47%

Same happend to Pistons and Hawks. I don't get why teams didn't protest against such a bull**** system, it's not like it was their fault that they ended up playing game less than direct tanking "opponenet".

Not to mention how Minny ended up with second worst record, by only playing 64 games. Hawks, Pistons and Knicks ended up being seeded behind them by playing 1,2 or even 3 games more. To make things even more dumb, down the line, T wolves had scheduled games against all those teams.

[drsd]

I'd be excited about this team. It means our style of play is different. I love Vuc but tired of seeing our offense ran through him.

And-1

I expect Fultz to play with more confidence next season meaning he leads the offense. This frees up Vučević for more pick-and-pops, and screens for Pick-and-rolls. He should excel offensively in such plays.

But: Orlando needs to two consistent 37% three-ball shooters on the wing. That is not going to be Fournier and Gordon. There is not enough shooting accuracy there between these two. Fournier and another could work. But if the offense is led through Fultz, I absolutely see no place for Gordon in this roster.


..

[Skin]

People keep saying tanking won't work but the bottom 3 teams are all picking in the top 5 this year. *shrugs*

Love how you didn't mention what happend to other top 3 worst teams to fit your agenda.

Hawks ,4th worst record- drafts 6th
Pistons, 5th worst record drafts 7th
Knicks, 6th worst record drafts 8th

There is also whole issue this year with uneven number of games teams played. Cavs and Minny both won 19 games, one team played 64 other 65.
Their win percentage difference is 0,47%

Same happend to Pistons and Hawks. I don't get why teams didn't protest against such a bull**** system, it's not like it was their fault that they ended up playing game less than direct tanking "opponenet".

Not to mention how Minny ended up with second worst record, by only playing 64 games. Hawks, Pistons and Knicks ended up being seeded behind them by playing 1,2 or even 3 games more. To make things even more dumb, down the line, T wolves had scheduled games against all those teams.

Those 3 falls aren't that bad either though. 2 spots is not dramatic. Especially if you're preaching it doesn't work, it doesn't work, it doesn't work, so passionately.

[drsd]

People keep saying tanking won't work but the bottom 3 teams are all picking in the top 5 this year. *shrugs*

Being horrible to draft Deni Avdija or Onyeka Okongwu. Hmm.

..

[pepe1991]

People keep saying tanking won't work but the bottom 3 teams are all picking in the top 5 this year. *shrugs*

Love how you didn't mention what happend to other top 3 worst teams to fit your agenda.

Hawks ,4th worst record- drafts 6th
Pistons, 5th worst record drafts 7th
Knicks, 6th worst record drafts 8th

There is also whole issue this year with uneven number of games teams played. Cavs and Minny both won 19 games, one team played 64 other 65.
Their win percentage difference is 0,47%

Same happend to Pistons and Hawks. I don't get why teams didn't protest against such a bull**** system, it's not like it was their fault that they ended up playing game less than direct tanking "opponenet".

Not to mention how Minny ended up with second worst record, by only playing 64 games. Hawks, Pistons and Knicks ended up being seeded behind them by playing 1,2 or even 3 games more. To make things even more dumb, down the line, T wolves had scheduled games against all those teams.

Those 3 falls aren't that bad either though. 2 spots is not dramatic. Especially if you're preaching it doesn't work, it doesn't work, it doesn't work, so passionately.

Falling from 4th worst record to 6th slot is enough to go from Doncic to Bamba or from Bosh to Kris Kaman.
From 5 to 7 - Wade to Kirk Hinrich.

Pelicans last year won lottery with 33-49 record, while being just 9th worst record. Knicks, with worst record drafted 3rd and missed on both Zion and Morant.
This falls are dramatic if you see who teams miss on. That's whole logic behind reformed lottery, to make it less attractive strategy.
Suns with second worst record drafted 6th. That's collosal slap in a face if tank was your only strategy.
Ultimately, lottery was done on purpose to make it unreliable and therfore nobody will be viewed as great GM just because he or she sold all actual players for picks . Odds are, he'll get himself fired in next 2 years as most of expected picks, won't land where he hoped for.

Look, nobody is saying winning lottery in nba is bad thing, however, in order to maximise odds you have to wrack your own roster. Once you tear whole roster down, you MIGHT win lottery or player worth building around, but you will still have bunch of bad contracts, bad players and poor fits that you accumulated in process of lowering odds of winning games. And in process of rebuilding around that player , his rookie contract most of the time expires faster than you are able to flip a switch. Also there is always objective question- how good is your best player.

Look at Paul George and Pacers.
Guy was allstar at age of 22, led team to 49-32 record. At age of 23 he took them to 56 freaking wins and conference finals. Great things ahead? Not really. First he broke a leg, missed a year, signed huge contract, did recover, not quite as good, asked a trade, lost in first round, lost in first round again and asked for another trade.

That's career path of 6 time allstar who was viewed as next big deal, Lebron stopper, next Durant, whoever. He never turned into anything better than solid B option.

[TheGlyde]

How many of those players you listed have what it takes to lead a team to a championship? I count 1.

I love it how in this short term attention span era it's Championship or fail.

82 games is too many. 5 dribbles is too many. Let's just play 3 on 3 half court with a 10 second shot clock and 4 point line.

Imagine if the Utah Jazz were broken up in 1995 after their 2nd first round exit in 3 years...
"This Malone/Stockton/Hornacek core has peaked. they are all over 30, it is time to move them for picks and blow it up."

The same trio led the Jazz to back to back NBA finals in 1997 and 1998 as 34 & 35 year olds.

One team out of 30 wins the Championship.

One.

The other 29 teams are not failures needing to blow it up.

Only nine different franchses have won NBA titles since Michael Jordan freaking retired, and 4 of those 9 franchises were led by either Lebron or Kawhi.

I understand patience being worn thin by long term fans but some people need to let go of the title or bust philosophy.

That philosophy led to the Magic dumping Hedo after the 2009 Finals and bringing in Vince Carter to be a 'Kobe like scorer', and the team kept digging itself into a deeper hole and got worse each of the next 3 years until Dwight left.

We are a small market team. There are no free agents signing with the Magic that will lead the team to a Championship.

None.

Even if we traded for a player capable of leading this team to a Championship, they would probably refuse to play for the franchise and demand a move to a bigger market (Can you really see Giannis, Lebron etc playing in Orlando?).

Occasionally a small market team strikes gold in the lottery. Cleveland did it. Dallas did it. San Antonio did it. We did it already.

Twice.

What are the odds another generational talent drops into our laps?

The Denver/Utah/Toronto model is the only one proven to work for small market teams.

Make smart moves, small upgrades, don't take big risks, and hope for a lot of luck along the way.

Vuc is one of the most accomplished players in Magic franchise history. If he was on a team with TMac back in the day, or had Rashard Lewis, Hedo and Jameer around him, he's probably a widely celebrated fan favourite with some deep playoff runs.

Because he can't drag a roster full of overachieving, undertalented players to a better than .500 record by himself, he gets picked on for not being a rim protector, in a league that has restructured rules to make it a silly idea unless you have the natural athleticism and instinct.

I don't expect big moves. I don't expect to go from 8th seed to finals.

I hope, for small improvements year by year both in talent pool and quality of play. I saw that last year.

This year was a pandemic driven, injury riddled mess, and yeah, I wanted more from the season, and I want more next season, but my god... The Championship or bust brigade needs to come back inside off the ledge, because if you aren't going to jump you will be out there threatening to, for the next 30 years.

My only point is, if the argument is that you can build a contender without picking at the top end of the draft, or acquiring a player that was picked at the top end of the draft, how many times has that actually happened? It's extremely rare. You ultimately need to add that superstar player at some point. The goal is to build a contending team after all.

Just to note, I didn't mean to single you out by quoting you, I've just seen a lot of "Blow it up if you can't win a Chip" type posts and I just don't think it's that simple in an extremely complicated league with so many off court factors (especially now).

You have switched it up a little from 'winning a championship' to 'build a contender', and I think that is a much more reasonable argument. It is the uphill battle we find ourselves in as a small market team. Winning a Championship as a small market team, is extremely rare. That is just how it is. Building a contender is possible, but winning a Championships is extremely rare.

I think your point about Vuc is way off too. Did you watch this team during your board hiatus? No shade, just a genuine question. "Surrounding" Vuc would not lead to any deep playoff runs. If Vuc is your 4th option then maybe you can have some deep runs with him. Vuc isn't really that "accomplished". He's been one of the only decent offensive players on the team in the most prolonged and darkest era of our existence as a franchise. For that reason he's been able to accumolate stats and rise up the all time Magic leaderboards. I don't foresee anybody other than the biggest Vuc homers looking at him as some sort of Magic legend in the future, but maybe I'm wrong.

Full disclosure, Magic games generally are on between 7am and 11am in Australia, so for many years I was only able to watch live on weekends or when I wasn't at work, and I followed the rest of the games with highlights and ESPN Gamecast. Around the time of the Fultz trade I changed jobs and pretty much haven't missed a game since... The post trade deadline run from last season made me want to chat with Magic fans again, which brought me back here.

I think you misinterpreted my point a little about Vuc, and to be fair, what I stated was a bit of a stretch, I mean it is not like a HOFer like McGrady, or a group of 3 All-Stars/fringe All-Stars like Shard, Hedo or Jameer will drop into our laps to take the load of Vuc... But my basic point is if Vuc was not the #1 option, and either had a Star wing, or a fringe All-Star/above average NBA starter or two (rather than having to shoulder the load), I think his Magic career would be looked at very differently.

Instead, on many nights he's been the lone thing keeping the team respectable, which I fully understand is where much of criticism comes from, because the 'respectability' along with the rest of the roster = first round exit, and that costs us the Magical draft pick that many think will lead us to a Championship.

I don't think Vuc will be looked at as a Magic legend, but I think he is absolutely one of the top ten players in Magic History. He's maybe in a battle with Jameer for the most maligned of the players in that top ten... "Zomg why did we start 'Meer in the finals, it cost us a Championship"... Um, we didn't start him, Skip started and 'Meer took AJ's bench minutes (tangent there, but it's something I see stated all the time).

Anyway, Vuc lived through the dark times too, and he could have left, but he stayed, unlike Shaq who bolted, Dwight who forced a trade, and TMac who never got out of the first round either, and quit on the team entirely in 2004...

[Skin]

People keep saying tanking won't work but the bottom 3 teams are all picking in the top 5 this year. *shrugs*

Being horrible to draft Deni Avdija or Onyeka Okongwu. Hmm.

..

Vuc or Gordon +5 is more attractive to top 3 teams than Vuc or Gordon + 15.

[Skin]

Love how you didn't mention what happend to other top 3 worst teams to fit your agenda.

Hawks ,4th worst record- drafts 6th
Pistons, 5th worst record drafts 7th
Knicks, 6th worst record drafts 8th

There is also whole issue this year with uneven number of games teams played. Cavs and Minny both won 19 games, one team played 64 other 65.
Their win percentage difference is 0,47%

Same happend to Pistons and Hawks. I don't get why teams didn't protest against such a bull**** system, it's not like it was their fault that they ended up playing game less than direct tanking "opponenet".

Not to mention how Minny ended up with second worst record, by only playing 64 games. Hawks, Pistons and Knicks ended up being seeded behind them by playing 1,2 or even 3 games more. To make things even more dumb, down the line, T wolves had scheduled games against all those teams.

Those 3 falls aren't that bad either though. 2 spots is not dramatic. Especially if you're preaching it doesn't work, it doesn't work, it doesn't work, so passionately.

Falling from 4th worst record to 6th slot is enough to go from Doncic to Bamba or from Bosh to Kris Kaman.
From 5 to 7 - Wade to Kirk Hinrich.

Pelicans last year won lottery with 33-49 record, while being just 9th worst record. Knicks, with worst record drafted 3rd and missed on both Zion and Morant.
This falls are dramatic if you see who teams miss on. That's whole logic behind reformed lottery, to make it less attractive strategy.
Suns with second worst record drafted 6th. That's collosal slap in a face if tank was your only strategy.
Ultimately, lottery was done on purpose to make it unreliable and therfore nobody will be viewed as great GM just because he or she sold all actual players for picks . Odds are, he'll get himself fired in next 2 years as most of expected picks, won't land where he hoped for.

Look, nobody is saying winning lottery in nba is bad thing, however, in order to maximise odds you have to wrack your own roster. Once you tear whole roster down, you MIGHT win lottery or player worth building around, but you will still have bunch of bad contracts, bad players and poor fits that you accumulated in process of lowering odds of winning games. And in process of rebuilding around that player , his rookie contract most of the time expires faster than you are able to flip a switch. Also there is always objective question- how good is your best player.

Look at Paul George and Pacers.
Guy was allstar at age of 22, led team to 49-32 record. At age of 23 he took them to 56 freaking wins and conference finals. Great things ahead? Not really. First he broke a leg, missed a year, signed huge contract, did recover, not quite as good, asked a trade, lost in first round, lost in first round again and asked for another trade.

That's career path of 6 time allstar who was viewed as next big deal, Lebron stopper, next Durant, whoever. He never turned into anything better than solid B option.

The name of the game is still having to draft correctly. No matter the spot there is chance for regret.

That said, you're making a case that it's better to be among the 5th-10th worst team than a top 5 worse team. If we tanked, that's probably your sweet spot anyways, since we're not bad enough to be at the very bottom.

All I know is that you are the happiest person in the room right now because the Magic have been doing exactly what you want, they accomplished all you expected them to, you love the core leaders on this team, and the current path is way more favorable to you than seeing any developments of WeHam's draft picks.

[pepe1991]

Those 3 falls aren't that bad either though. 2 spots is not dramatic. Especially if you're preaching it doesn't work, it doesn't work, it doesn't work, so passionately.

Falling from 4th worst record to 6th slot is enough to go from Doncic to Bamba or from Bosh to Kris Kaman.
From 5 to 7 - Wade to Kirk Hinrich.

Pelicans last year won lottery with 33-49 record, while being just 9th worst record. Knicks, with worst record drafted 3rd and missed on both Zion and Morant.
This falls are dramatic if you see who teams miss on. That's whole logic behind reformed lottery, to make it less attractive strategy.
Suns with second worst record drafted 6th. That's collosal slap in a face if tank was your only strategy.
Ultimately, lottery was done on purpose to make it unreliable and therfore nobody will be viewed as great GM just because he or she sold all actual players for picks . Odds are, he'll get himself fired in next 2 years as most of expected picks, won't land where he hoped for.

Look, nobody is saying winning lottery in nba is bad thing, however, in order to maximise odds you have to wrack your own roster. Once you tear whole roster down, you MIGHT win lottery or player worth building around, but you will still have bunch of bad contracts, bad players and poor fits that you accumulated in process of lowering odds of winning games. And in process of rebuilding around that player , his rookie contract most of the time expires faster than you are able to flip a switch. Also there is always objective question- how good is your best player.

Look at Paul George and Pacers.
Guy was allstar at age of 22, led team to 49-32 record. At age of 23 he took them to 56 freaking wins and conference finals. Great things ahead? Not really. First he broke a leg, missed a year, signed huge contract, did recover, not quite as good, asked a trade, lost in first round, lost in first round again and asked for another trade.

That's career path of 6 time allstar who was viewed as next big deal, Lebron stopper, next Durant, whoever. He never turned into anything better than solid B option.

The name of the game is still having to draft correctly. No matter the spot there is chance for regret.

That said, you're making a case that it's better to be among the 5th-10th worst team than a top 5 worse team. If we tanked, that's probably your sweet spot anyways, since we're not bad enough to be at the very bottom.

All I know is that you are the happiest person in the room right now because the Magic have been doing exactly what you want, they accomplished all you expected them to, you love the core leaders on this team, and the current path is way more favorable to you than seeing any developments of WeHam's draft picks.

Name of the game is and always was -recognizing talent. And adding that player in any way possible. Trade, late lottery, late first round, second round, undrafted... you name it.
Development makes sense if player is worth investing time.
Isaac can't be trusted due health, Okeke is simply uknown value and Bamba isn't worth wasting time on.
if Fultz is returned next season without outside jumper, he is another player not worth lucrutive exstension nor player that should be considered "core".

Young players have "untapped potential " value. But just for breath period of time. Once it wears off, most of the time you are left with untalented player (case and point Dragan Bender is only 6 months older than Bamba , but due more exposure it's clear he is not good player, just like it will be clear Bamba isn't good player next year, but at that point his value will reach zero ).

Almost every year 3rd and 4th year former lottery picks are shuffeld around nba teams, most of bad teams are desparate for hope so they buy that players. Justise Winslow, Stanley Johnson,Jah Okafor, Marqueese Chriss, Josh Jackson, Pöltl, Maker... I had to google most of them to figure are they even in NBA any more. Just like that, 10 former lottery picks in last 5 drafts, as complete no factors in nba.

or even new ones, just a year and half ago Nassir Little was projected to go as top 5 pick. Due his craptastic performance at college he ended up being 22# pick that can't get off piss poor Porltand bench as Hezonja outplays him. Imagine multi million dollars team that once considered tanking for him.

Look, i don't even suggesting what do to. To be fair, i have no clue. I'm as cluess as anybody. I discuss options. Tearing down roster is proven to be terrible therfore i find zero reasons for using that as valid strategy. Nobody won more first overall selections than T wovles who passed first round of playoffs -once in 30 years. Team that 17 times in 30 years had top 7 pick.

[drsd]

Vuc or Gordon +5 is more attractive to top 3 teams than Vuc or Gordon + 15.

I do not understand. Please expand.

[PrimeThyme]

I’m not even a championship or bust sort of fan, but I atleast expect a team to have the ceiling to potentially get out of the second round some day. I don’t think this roster even has the potential to get out of the first.

I think some people are going to be shocked when they watch us barely make the playoffs or get the 9th seed next year. All the teams ahead of us outside of maybe Indiana are going to remain better or will get better (Boston, Nets) while teams below us like Atlanta could easily sneak into the playoffs with a strong free agency acquisition or two.

We are not on this linear path right now. I see no reason to believe that Fultz, Bamba, or AG will take a massive leap next year. We have no cap space. Our only trade asset is AG and he’s not going to fetch us a difference maker on the market.

[Skin]

Vuc or Gordon +5 is more attractive to top 3 teams than Vuc or Gordon + 15.

I do not understand. Please expand.

5 and 15 are draft pick spots. It's be easier for us to move up with a better pick.

[pepe1991]

Vuc or Gordon +5 is more attractive to top 3 teams than Vuc or Gordon + 15.

I do not understand. Please expand.

5 and 15 are draft pick spots. It's be easier for us to move up with a better pick.

One anonimus executive told Brian Windhorst that he expects first round picks to be sold for cash this year due lack of money to go around.
That's new NBA and 2020 draft. You probably can buy your way into lottery by attaching some player and bag of money.

One owner said

"I don't know what will happen, but I may lose $50 million next season," one owner told ESPN. "If that happens, I have three options: I could borrow the money, I could sell part of the team or I could do a cash call and me and my partners would have to write checks."

This is part of us understands that tanking isn't even option. Not for Magic but for not a single nba team in upcomming years. Simply terrible money situation.