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poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season

Moderators: Howard Mass, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro, SOUL, Def Swami, UCFJayBird

Are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season

Yes: the Magic gave us a second consecutive playoff birth
8
13%
Maybe: this was one of the worst playoff teams ever, but the Magic did win a game
11
18%
No: blow it up
42
69%
 
Total votes: 61

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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#41 » by drsd » Thu Sep 3, 2020 8:31 am

KillMonger wrote:Happy? no.....resigned? defeated? deflated? disappointed? hell yes....This season should be clear to everyone, ownership included that this team as currently constructed is capped right where we are and changes are needed......problem is though you need something to sell to the season ticket holders and you can't sell a rebuild....hopefully the FO does what it needs to do to move forward OFF the treadmill



OMD has a really nice op-ed on this topic:
OMD link; Orlando Magic have little flexibility


The 2020 season then is going to be viewed as a mixed bag.

The Magic made the playoffs for a second straight year. That is an accomplishment. But the rest of the puzzle looks a bit muddied. There is no longer the unbridled optimism from the end of the 2019 season.



But among the fan base, there certainly is a feeling of finality. The optimism of 2019 has given way to the uncertainty of 2020.

A second straight year inside the Playoffs, but scraping the bottom of them, has everyone asking where this team goes from here.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#42 » by Last Guardian » Thu Sep 3, 2020 5:00 pm

The Magic have been relevant twice in its history, both times because of draft picks. How some people can deny that getting a lottery pick isn't a good thing I have no idea. Yes, teams have screwed up #1 picks. Yes we've screwed up top 10 picks plenty of times. That doesn't negate that it is a very good thing to be IN THAT POSITION. You cannot as a franchise be where we are today, a BAD team in the eastern conference picking outside of the top 10. I could care less if the odds have changed, I want as many odds as I can get. I don't care if other teams have been bad for years and they're still bad. There will always be examples of it working and not working. Nothing changes the fact that we're under .500 in a horrible conference, lose against nearly every marginally good team, are drafting outside the top 10 and do not have the pieces to make any meaningful trade. To add insult to injury, the brightest spot on the team is massively injury prone.

In case it isn't clear, blow it up.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#43 » by MasterGMer » Thu Sep 3, 2020 9:49 pm

The key in contention is assets management. I know everyone agrees, the whole key is to get a corner stone of the team, aka Super Star. That is how you win! It could be High Draft picks, or tanking. It could be trade or Free Agency. Or it could be player development.

I understand many of your point here: In a small market team like Orlando, it is hard to get FA. Thus we need to tank.

But tanking won't work like before. Knicks is drafting 8th this year with one of the worst record. Does that get you a Super Star Rookie? No. It just waste your time.

TBH, I don't like the direction this franchise is heading. We have maxed out and we need talent desperately. I hope the FO is more aggressive in the market and show promise next season.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#44 » by TheGlyde » Thu Sep 3, 2020 11:29 pm

Last Guardian wrote:The Magic have been relevant twice in its history, both times because of draft picks. How some people can deny that getting a lottery pick isn't a good thing I have no idea. Yes, teams have screwed up #1 picks. Yes we've screwed up top 10 picks plenty of times. That doesn't negate that it is a very good thing to be IN THAT POSITION. You cannot as a franchise be where we are today, a BAD team in the eastern conference picking outside of the top 10. I could care less if the odds have changed, I want as many odds as I can get. I don't care if other teams have been bad for years and they're still bad. There will always be examples of it working and not working. Nothing changes the fact that we're under .500 in a horrible conference, lose against nearly every marginally good team, are drafting outside the top 10 and do not have the pieces to make any meaningful trade. To add insult to injury, the brightest spot on the team is massively injury prone.

In case it isn't clear, blow it up.


Both the times you mentioned we had to get the #1 pick in order to get the player who made us 'relevant'

The Eastern conference is so bad, that we would have to absolutely gut this team to tank so badly to get one of the worst 3 records and have a (massive) 14% chance at getting the #1 pick again. Then what? cross your fingers and prey we don't get the #5?

First things first you would have to fire Clifford, because whatever roster you give him he will squeeze it to get every win he can.

You would have to trade Vuc and at least 2+ out of Aaron, Evan, T-Ross and Markelle.

Having more than 2 them on the roster would win too many games in the rubbish East to keep a bottom 3 record, unless you managed to talk them into faking an injury and taking the year off, or just flat moved them out of the rotation.

In a contract year, Evan isn't agreeing to sit on the bench, so he and Vuc would have to be traded and at least one more out of AG, TRoss or Markelle.

Assuming Kelle is your keeper, and assuming any amount of moderate improvement between this season and next, you'd have to shut him down at some point during the season with a Drew Gooden style infected hair-follicle injury, essentially wasting his season, or the kid might win us too many games.

You have to monitor Okeke closely because if he is a gamer and is getting big minutes on your gutted team, he might win too many games as well.

Then you need to find suitors for Vuc, Evan and either AG or Ross in a cash strapped league where you likely have to take on bad money back in order to get any kind of draft picks for them. The bad teams don't want them because they help you win (but not enough to get out of the first round), so that cuts your potential trade partners in half.

Any thoughts of being a FA player are out, because taking back bad money to move them to a contender essentially gives you no ability to use anything except to overpay with the MLE (sans Aminu) to bring in anyone who wants to play with a gutted roster of rookies and G-Leaguers.

Vuc upped his value this playoffs and you could try to sell high and get maybe an ok pick and an expiring to go with a smaller salary dump.

Evan as an expiring you can maybe dump without having to pay a team to take him, but if teams know you are gutting the roster, they will know you have no leverage to move these guys.

If you make a move or two and it is clear you are moving all the vets, then you have to take the best offer you can get, you can't just say "oh well, if thats the best deal we will keep AG", because he ruins your tank, so then we get fleeced in a bad trade and the fan base is "zomg how could you agree to such a bad trade". Well, because you wanted a tank.

AG and Ross have some value on the right team but all of the above combined is a hell of a lot of unknowns and deals to try and make concurrently and so much has to fall into place... and you could do all that, cost the team millions in ticket sales, sponsors, potentially lower the value of the regional TV contract and kill all merch sales, and you'd still have a 47.9% chance of picking outside the top 4.

"Yeah well it's still better than making the playoffs".
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#45 » by MagicMatic » Fri Sep 4, 2020 12:34 am

TheGlyde wrote:
Last Guardian wrote:The Magic have been relevant twice in its history, both times because of draft picks. How some people can deny that getting a lottery pick isn't a good thing I have no idea. Yes, teams have screwed up #1 picks. Yes we've screwed up top 10 picks plenty of times. That doesn't negate that it is a very good thing to be IN THAT POSITION. You cannot as a franchise be where we are today, a BAD team in the eastern conference picking outside of the top 10. I could care less if the odds have changed, I want as many odds as I can get. I don't care if other teams have been bad for years and they're still bad. There will always be examples of it working and not working. Nothing changes the fact that we're under .500 in a horrible conference, lose against nearly every marginally good team, are drafting outside the top 10 and do not have the pieces to make any meaningful trade. To add insult to injury, the brightest spot on the team is massively injury prone.

In case it isn't clear, blow it up.


Both the times you mentioned we had to get the #1 pick in order to get the player who made us 'relevant'

The Eastern conference is so bad, that we would have to absolutely gut this team to tank so badly to get one of the worst 3 records and have a (massive) 14% chance at getting the #1 pick again. Then what? cross your fingers and prey we don't get the #5?

First things first you would have to fire Clifford, because whatever roster you give him he will squeeze it to get every win he can.

You would have to trade Vuc and at least 2+ out of Aaron, Evan, T-Ross and Markelle.

Having more than 2 them on the roster would win too many games in the rubbish East to keep a bottom 3 record, unless you managed to talk them into faking an injury and taking the year off, or just flat moved them out of the rotation.

In a contract year, Evan isn't agreeing to sit on the bench, so he and Vuc would have to be traded and at least one more out of AG, TRoss or Markelle.

Assuming Kelle is your keeper, and assuming any amount of moderate improvement between this season and next, you'd have to shut him down at some point during the season with a Drew Gooden style infected hair-follicle injury, essentially wasting his season, or the kid might win us too many games.

You have to monitor Okeke closely because if he is a gamer and is getting big minutes on your gutted team, he might win too many games as well.

Then you need to find suitors for Vuc, Evan and either AG or Ross in a cash strapped league where you likely have to take on bad money back in order to get any kind of draft picks for them. The bad teams don't want them because they help you win (but not enough to get out of the first round), so that cuts your potential trade partners in half.

Any thoughts of being a FA player are out, because taking back bad money to move them to a contender essentially gives you no ability to use anything except to overpay with the MLE (sans Aminu) to bring in anyone who wants to play with a gutted roster of rookies and G-Leaguers.

Vuc upped his value this playoffs and you could try to sell high and get maybe an ok pick and an expiring to go with a smaller salary dump.

Evan as an expiring you can maybe dump without having to pay a team to take him, but if teams know you are gutting the roster, they will know you have no leverage to move these guys.

If you make a move or two and it is clear you are moving all the vets, then you have to take the best offer you can get, you can't just say "oh well, if thats the best deal we will keep AG", because he ruins your tank, so then we get fleeced in a bad trade and the fan base is "zomg how could you agree to such a bad trade". Well, because you wanted a tank.

AG and Ross have some value on the right team but all of the above combined is a hell of a lot of unknowns and deals to try and make concurrently and so much has to fall into place... and you could do all that, cost the team millions in ticket sales, sponsors, potentially lower the value of the regional TV contract and kill all merch sales, and you'd still have a 47.9% chance of picking outside the top 4.

"Yeah well it's still better than making the playoffs".


Yes, it is.

Being in the middle of the pack in the nba is the worst possible position. The FO has willed this team to that position with their moves. Now they are out of time and out of options as you’ve stated. You can’t half ass a direction in this league and still be relevant.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#46 » by zaymon » Fri Sep 4, 2020 7:05 am

Even without trades and draft we have means to climb the eastern conference.
3/5 starters were < 25 y.o. 2/5 <22 y.o
Gordon and Isaac doesnt fit together
Fultz can only improve after his first healthy season.
Bamba started to resemble a rotation player late in a season.
Okeke could be a real help. 39% from 3, 6'8 with 7 foot wingspan. Great team defender with some rim protection.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#47 » by Knightro » Sat Sep 5, 2020 12:35 pm

zaymon wrote:Even without trades and draft we have means to climb the eastern conference.
3/5 starters were < 25 y.o. 2/5 <22 y.o
Gordon and Isaac doesnt fit together
Fultz can only improve after his first healthy season.
Bamba started to resemble a rotation player late in a season.
Okeke could be a real help. 39% from 3, 6'8 with 7 foot wingspan. Great team defender with some rim protection.
#15
Vucevic becoming a reliable 3 point shooter


Define climb though?

Could the Magic win a higher percentage of their games next year and earn a higher seed with internal improvements? With absolutely pristine health like they had in Clifford's first season, they probably can.

Can the Magic win a playoff series with this roster? Almost assuredly not.

The ceiling has been established. The roster as presently constructed in the absolute best case scenario can win about 45 games and lose a competitive series in the first round as a 6 seed.

It would take a herculean level of improvement from Markelle Fultz (aka going from his current -1.8 OBPM guy to a +2.0 OBPM guy in one offseason) for the Magic's ceiling to change.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#48 » by zaymon » Sat Sep 5, 2020 1:33 pm

Knightro wrote:
zaymon wrote:Even without trades and draft we have means to climb the eastern conference.
3/5 starters were < 25 y.o. 2/5 <22 y.o
Gordon and Isaac doesnt fit together
Fultz can only improve after his first healthy season.
Bamba started to resemble a rotation player late in a season.
Okeke could be a real help. 39% from 3, 6'8 with 7 foot wingspan. Great team defender with some rim protection.
#15
Vucevic becoming a reliable 3 point shooter


Define climb though?

Could the Magic win a higher percentage of their games next year and earn a higher seed with internal improvements? With absolutely pristine health like they had in Clifford's first season, they probably can.

Can the Magic win a playoff series with this roster? Almost assuredly not.

The ceiling has been established. The roster as presently constructed in the absolute best case scenario can win about 45 games and lose a competitive series in the first round as a 6 seed.

It would take a herculean level of improvement from Markelle Fultz (aka going from his current -1.8 OBPM guy to a +2.0 OBPM guy in one offseason) for the Magic's ceiling to change.

If everything goes right, i think Okeke/Isaac/Vucevic frontcourt is top 4, second round worthy in 2022.
A lot depends on how our backcourt will develop. Fultz could be Bledsoe lite or Beal lite. Maybe we will get Beal himself or another guard. Its easier to get all star level guard than all star level forward. We are positioned for some star hunting in the next few years.
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2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#49 » by j-ragg » Sat Sep 5, 2020 2:46 pm

zaymon wrote:If everything goes right, i think Okeke/Isaac/Vucevic frontcourt is top 4, second round worthy in 2022.
A lot depends on how our backcourt will develop. Fultz could be Bledsoe lite or Beal lite. Maybe we will get Beal himself or another guard. Its easier to get all star level guard than all star level forward. We are positioned for some star hunting in the next few years.

If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#50 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Sat Sep 5, 2020 2:48 pm

j-ragg wrote:
zaymon wrote:If everything goes right, i think Okeke/Isaac/Vucevic frontcourt is top 4, second round worthy in 2022.
A lot depends on how our backcourt will develop. Fultz could be Bledsoe lite or Beal lite. Maybe we will get Beal himself or another guard. Its easier to get all star level guard than all star level forward. We are positioned for some star hunting in the next few years.

If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.

Fairytale land for sure
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#51 » by zaymon » Sat Sep 5, 2020 2:53 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
j-ragg wrote:
zaymon wrote:If everything goes right, i think Okeke/Isaac/Vucevic frontcourt is top 4, second round worthy in 2022.
A lot depends on how our backcourt will develop. Fultz could be Bledsoe lite or Beal lite. Maybe we will get Beal himself or another guard. Its easier to get all star level guard than all star level forward. We are positioned for some star hunting in the next few years.

If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.

Fairytale land for sure

Miami got Butler for Richardson. We will propably have to wait 1-2 years, and trade for expiring, but i can see it happen. Its better to overvalue your players than undervalue i thought we learned that lesson.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#52 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Sat Sep 5, 2020 3:00 pm

zaymon wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
j-ragg wrote:If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.

Fairytale land for sure

Miami got Butler for Richardson. We will propably have to wait 1-2 years, and trade for expiring, but i can see it happen. Its better to overvalue your players than undervalue i thought we learned that lesson.


Miami got Butler because it’s one of few places he agreed to go to. They have a badass FO and HC who runs circles around a lot of NBA Teams. Magic have neither a badass FO or HC and it’s Orlando.

For a mediocre purgatory team absolutely overvalue your players because it’s all you’ve got. FA aren’t going to come here so only hope is trade for one late in career/ draft a stud or luck into a player that blows up due to change of scenery.


Still wouldn’t mind throwing a 2nd round pick at DSJ
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#53 » by MagicFan101 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 3:01 pm

j-ragg wrote:
zaymon wrote:If everything goes right, i think Okeke/Isaac/Vucevic frontcourt is top 4, second round worthy in 2022.
A lot depends on how our backcourt will develop. Fultz could be Bledsoe lite or Beal lite. Maybe we will get Beal himself or another guard. Its easier to get all star level guard than all star level forward. We are positioned for some star hunting in the next few years.

If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.



The problem is your only options in trades (since we are talking about other teams valuing our players) is snagging an under the radar talent who becomes more than expected — which takes elite scouting — or we need a disgruntled star in the final year on their contract to demand a trade and list Orlando as a team he would resign with.

The latter isn’t likely, so we have to trust our scouting.

We pulled the trigger on such a move with Fultz. He has outperformed his time in Philly already and I have high hopes for better days to come. True.

But IMO you need to forget about Beal or established stars for now. We need to focus on the draft or young players sitting behind stars who we think could shine in a larger role.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#54 » by zaymon » Sat Sep 5, 2020 4:49 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
j-ragg wrote:
zaymon wrote:If everything goes right, i think Okeke/Isaac/Vucevic frontcourt is top 4, second round worthy in 2022.
A lot depends on how our backcourt will develop. Fultz could be Bledsoe lite or Beal lite. Maybe we will get Beal himself or another guard. Its easier to get all star level guard than all star level forward. We are positioned for some star hunting in the next few years.

If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.



The problem is your only options in trades (since we are talking about other teams valuing our players) is snagging an under the radar talent who becomes more than expected — which takes elite scouting — or we need a disgruntled star in the final year on their contract to demand a trade and list Orlando as a team he would resign with.

The latter isn’t likely, so we have to trust our scouting.

We pulled the trigger on such a move with Fultz. He has outperformed his time in Philly already and I have high hopes for better days to come. True.

But IMO you need to forget about Beal or established stars for now. We need to focus on the draft or young players sitting behind stars who we think could shine in a larger role.

As i said, we are still 1-2 years away from that move. Until then we need to work on the margins. Heat culture didnt came from tanking, it came from trying to win. They were the fringe playoff team for the last 3 years, according to this board the worst place to be in. If you want to sign Butler you have to show the willingness to win, for the last 2 years we have done just that.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#55 » by MagicFan101 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 5:18 pm

zaymon wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
j-ragg wrote:If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.



The problem is your only options in trades (since we are talking about other teams valuing our players) is snagging an under the radar talent who becomes more than expected — which takes elite scouting — or we need a disgruntled star in the final year on their contract to demand a trade and list Orlando as a team he would resign with.

The latter isn’t likely, so we have to trust our scouting.

We pulled the trigger on such a move with Fultz. He has outperformed his time in Philly already and I have high hopes for better days to come. True.

But IMO you need to forget about Beal or established stars for now. We need to focus on the draft or young players sitting behind stars who we think could shine in a larger role.

As i said, we are still 1-2 years away from that move. Until then we need to work on the margins. Heat culture didnt came from tanking, it came from trying to win. They were the fringe playoff team for the last 3 years, according to this board the worst place to be in. If you want to sign Butler you have to show the willingness to win, for the last 2 years we have done just that.


The city of Miami, LA, Boston and NY are also destinations for players as a lifestyle. Orlando doesn’t offer that and never will. You like to ignore this fact.

The draft allows teams like Orlando to overcome such obstacles and control a player for a significant amount of time.

Comparing Orlando to the rebuilds of Boston, LA or even Miami is a flawed argument.

Due to issues with management for the Knicks players are not as interested as they should be but they can still get that lifestyle in Brooklyn ...
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#56 » by Def Swami » Sat Sep 5, 2020 5:27 pm

The distinction with Miami is that not only are they a destination city, but they do the scouting, drafting, player development of a small market team like the Spurs or Thunder. Hate on the Heat as much as you want, but they're a model franchise.

If you're going to be a small market team that wants to win games, being great at those things is a prerequisite to be relevant. Otherwise you're the Sacramento Kings.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#57 » by Gomagic44 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 5:49 pm

Watching Miami succeed again makes me sick. Blow it up.

I watched maybe 3-4 games this season. I'm beyond tired of this roster. Like the one guy said about how much life has changed during these rebuilding years...I got married, divorced, remarried, became a dad. I turn on the magic and Vuc is our guy. We are practically the same team for almost a decade. It doesn't work.

I'm more entertained by my fellow fans than the team we support.

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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#58 » by jezzerinho » Sat Sep 5, 2020 5:50 pm

Def Swami wrote:The distinction with Miami is that not only are they a destination city, but they do the scouting, drafting, player development of a small market team like the Spurs or Thunder. Hate on the Heat as much as you want, but they're a model franchise.

If you're going to be a small market team that wants to win games, being great at those things is a prerequisite to be relevant. Otherwise you're the Sacramento Kings.
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Bingo!

Professional teams all over the world underestimate the importance and value of a good FO, winning head coach and great player development systems.

NBA teams will spend tens of millions attracting a FA player who might fail, get injured or take off at contract end.

Teams won't however spend picks, money and whatever else it takes to attract the best managerial talent. It's so myopic and counterproductive it makes me laugh.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#59 » by Xatticus » Sat Sep 5, 2020 6:08 pm

zaymon wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
j-ragg wrote:If other teams value our players the way you do, we should have no trouble getting a guy like Beal or another star guard.

Fairytale land for sure

Miami got Butler for Richardson. We will propably have to wait 1-2 years, and trade for expiring, but i can see it happen. Its better to overvalue your players than undervalue i thought we learned that lesson.


Miami got Butler because he agreed to sign there. He was a free agent. Philly facilitated the sign-and-trade to avoid losing him for nothing.
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Re: poll: are you personally pleased with the outcome of this season 

Post#60 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 6:26 pm

No!
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