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Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model?

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Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#1 » by MasterGMer » Wed Sep 9, 2020 1:32 am

Miami Heat just beat the Bucks 4 to 1. They are a program with mixture of rookies and veterans. They have Nunn and Herro, plus Dragic (expiring contract), Andre Iguolada, and Jimmy Butler. They have two all stars in Bam Adebayo and Jimmy Butler.

They never tanked and they are always playing with the best they can. I know there are many arguments saying how we need draft higher for stars. But do you remember Giannis Antetoukompo is only a 15th pick?

Miami Heat is positioning themselves for a big summer of 2021. And rumors have already swirling that some stars may want to join them.

Should Magic follow what Miami Heat has done? Keep doing its best and say no to tanking?

Pat Riley is just a basketball genius.

We have Okeke, Aminu and Isaac at PF. So I would trade AG for GSW's 2nd pick and Wiggins.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#2 » by tiderulz » Wed Sep 9, 2020 1:37 am

The city of Miami has more to offer young NBA players than Orlando does. we will have problems attracting top free agents unless we draft a superstar that someone wants to come play with. we are going to have to take some risks. i would do that AG trade, but I cant see GSW doing it
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#3 » by Gomagic44 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:01 am

I want to say good for them. But my adult fandom coincides with them winning championships. And here they are beating the hell out of the bucks...who also went from playoff(remember the brown bag fans) to trash and then playoffs faster than us and better than us. We need to do something. Anything. Maybe start with a hungry management. The draft bottomed out my ass.

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#4 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:07 am

It all starts up top... Pat Riley knows how to work things and has proven he can swap players for value time & time again. Riley wouldn't have sat and evaluated in year 1. We likely would've tanked better in 2018 and been in better position for lottery odds and franchise player.

Orlando can't try to copy what they're doing because it goes against everything our FO goes for. 0 chance this FO would've drafted Herro, or found Nunn + Robinson. There's a reason our FO gets joked about over whose the longest wingspan in the draft that's who the Magic will take.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#5 » by Gomagic44 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:34 am

"strong character" "high motor" "high athleticism"
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:It all starts up top... Pat Riley knows how to work things and has proven he can swap players for value time & time again. Riley wouldn't have sat and evaluated in year 1. We likely would've tanked better in 2018 and been in better position for lottery odds and franchise player.

Orlando can't try to copy what they're doing because it goes against everything our FO goes for. 0 chance this FO would've drafted Herro, or found Nunn + Robinson. There's a reason our FO gets joked about over whose the longest wingspan in the draft that's who the Magic will take.


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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#6 » by dc » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:44 am

tiderulz wrote:The city of Miami has more to offer young NBA players than Orlando does. we will have problems attracting top free agents unless we draft a superstar that someone wants to come play with.


You know, 20 years ago you guys once beat out all the big markets for 2 out of 3 of the big FAs. The Magic basically revolutionized the league from a standpoint of how to build a team by loading up on a bunch of contract that expired at the same time and luring a superstar by giving him the prospect of playing alongside another superstar.

Not to mention, you guys did that a year removed from being a playoff team. You had a middling playoff team but were thinking about bigger/better things, so you blew it all up, giving away talent in exchange for less talent who expired at the same time.

Orlando set a blueprint for modern NBA team building and it was a place players wanted to be. No reason the originators of that plan can't get back to that.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#7 » by Skin » Wed Sep 9, 2020 3:34 am

Riley is feeling age and is in a rush to make another run. WeHam got the memo that we need to win in 2030.

All kidding aside, WeHam just has to be bold. They have to have conviction in their vision and beliefs. There's no need to hang onto any Henny's guys.

Where to start?

1) DUMP HENNY'S GUYS.
Miami has a bunch of tough, aggressive attackers. Orlando has choir boys. The leadership has to change. The mental mindset has to change. The return on investment isn't even important anymore. We can't say no to trades if the value is uneven. We have to change the identity of this team. Kobe loved to play with players who were tough and if you were soft, he hated you. We need more dawgs on this team. We have assets. We have value. WeHam cannot be afraid to reshape the roster according to their vision of winning prior to coming to Orlando.

2) DO NOT RESIGN DJ AUGUSTIN. MAKE MARKELLE THE UNQUESTIONED STARTER.
We NEED to hand over the reigns to our young star in the making. Resigning DJ will only give Clifford more reason to favor DJ. We cannot keep splitting their time and expecting Markelle to make the kind of strides that we need him to make. Depth is important, but you have to have the right fit for Markelle. He had a GREAT comeback of a season! I'm sure he surprised MANY, but his supporters can pat their shoulders with confidence. I still see a future multiple time All-Star. His 3pt shot is holding him back, sure. But having the Heat in mind... neither D-Wade or Jimmy Butler are good 3pt shooters. In fact, Butler shot a putrid 24% from 3 during the regular season. It's how you surround them properly.

3) NO MORE DRAFTING PLAYERS WHO ARE YEARS AWAY FROM DELIVERING.
The time for that is over. We need players with at least some kind of NBA ready now skill, whether it's shooting, physical defense, playmaking... We have to trust that the player we draft can deliver on an exceptional strength. We can't sit here thinking that we need to draft the player with the least amount of overall weaknesses. We have to choose a player who can deliver consistently on his strength and then hope he develops in other areas. That's how you begin to build a successful working team. When one guy's strength can mitigate another's weaknesses, then you can correctly begin to form the whole. Again, the important thing is the strengths you collect have to be reliable. Not like us... we have no clue who will be hot or cold for us depending on the day. Hard to game plan for that. Impossible to have confidence in your team in the playoffs. Another side benefit is players know their roles.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#8 » by MagicMatic » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:34 am

No.

We don’t have an aggressive FO and they don’t draft well. Miami takes risks on talent. They give opportunity to players that normally wouldn’t get it. Miami drafts extremely well for their culture and standards. Not only that, but they are a legitimate free agent destination for obvious reasons. They have a pedigree and can sell themselves as such.

There are far too many things that would need to happen, over the course of a long period of time, to emulate Miami’s model. It’s like saying you want to match the Lakers and Boston’s model. Not happening. The only thing we have in common with Miami is the fact we are in the same state and division.

Theoretically, Orlando could draft extremely well and attempt to trade for better players in their prime. It still wouldn’t work as effectively as what Miami has going on.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#9 » by pepe1991 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 7:02 am

Pat Riley as player, assistent, coach and executive won TEN chmapionships. 3 times coach of the year, executive of a year.
That's why players want to play for him. Guy proved himself in every aspect of basketball.

On top of that it's freaking Miami.


As for any Wiggins trade idea, it should be some "hall of shame" for posters entertaining idea of trade for player who is basically high usage Hezonja.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#10 » by JBSouthpaw » Wed Sep 9, 2020 12:12 pm

Are paths haven't been that different.
What has been different, is their player evaluations and development.
Josh Richardson - 2015 draft
Whiteside - FA developed
Jones Jr - FA developed
Bam - 2017 draft
D. Robinson - UDFA
Herro - draft
Nunn - UDFA

Their UDFA and young FA, you could argue are better than our draft picks.
They aren't afraid to make deals, sending out JR & Whiteside for Butler.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#11 » by IllMagic04 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 12:36 pm

Skin wrote:Riley is feeling age and is in a rush to make another run. WeHam got the memo that we need to win in 2030.

All kidding aside, WeHam just has to be bold. They have to have conviction in their vision and beliefs. There's no need to hang onto any Henny's guys.

Where to start?

1) DUMP HENNY'S GUYS.
Miami has a bunch of tough, aggressive attackers. Orlando has choir boys. The leadership has to change. The mental mindset has to change. The return on investment isn't even important anymore. We can't say no to trades if the value is uneven. We have to change the identity of this team. Kobe loved to play with players who were tough and if you were soft, he hated you. We need more dawgs on this team. We have assets. We have value. WeHam cannot be afraid to reshape the roster according to their vision of winning prior to coming to Orlando.

2) DO NOT RESIGN DJ AUGUSTIN. MAKE MARKELLE THE UNQUESTIONED STARTER.
We NEED to hand over the reigns to our young star in the making. Resigning DJ will only give Clifford more reason to favor DJ. We cannot keep splitting their time and expecting Markelle to make the kind of strides that we need him to make. Depth is important, but you have to have the right fit for Markelle. He had a GREAT comeback of a season! I'm sure he surprised MANY, but his supporters can pat their shoulders with confidence. I still see a future multiple time All-Star. His 3pt shot is holding him back, sure. But having the Heat in mind... neither D-Wade or Jimmy Butler are good 3pt shooters. In fact, Butler shot a putrid 24% from 3 during the regular season. It's how you surround them properly.

3) NO MORE DRAFTING PLAYERS WHO ARE YEARS AWAY FROM DELIVERING.
The time for that is over. We need players with at least some kind of NBA ready now skill, whether it's shooting, physical defense, playmaking... We have to trust that the player we draft can deliver on an exceptional strength. We can't sit here thinking that we need to draft the player with the least amount of overall weaknesses. We have to choose a player who can deliver consistently on his strength and then hope he develops in other areas. That's how you begin to build a successful working team. When one guy's strength can mitigate another's weaknesses, then you can correctly begin to form the whole. Again, the important thing is the strengths you collect have to be reliable. Not like us... we have no clue who will be hot or cold for us depending on the day. Hard to game plan for that. Impossible to have confidence in your team in the playoffs. Another side benefit is players know their roles.


Right on the money!
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#12 » by Flannerz » Wed Sep 9, 2020 1:14 pm

Pat Riley sets the tone for the culture of the organisation. It starts from getting everyone into amazing shape and players holding each other accountable. They have found players like Whiteside and have always been aggressive in building the team. We have WeHam who are far too conservative.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#13 » by thelead » Wed Sep 9, 2020 1:48 pm

Flannerz wrote:Pat Riley sets the tone for the culture of the organisation. It starts from getting everyone into amazing shape and players holding each other accountable. They have found players like Whiteside and have always been aggressive in building the team. We have WeHam who are far too conservative.

The only thing Alex Martins has learned from Pat Riley is his hairstyle

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#14 » by tiderulz » Wed Sep 9, 2020 1:51 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Pat Riley as player, assistent, coach and executive won TEN chmapionships. 3 times coach of the year, executive of a year.
That's why players want to play for him. Guy proved himself in every aspect of basketball.

On top of that it's freaking Miami.


As for any Wiggins trade idea, it should be some "hall of shame" for posters entertaining idea of trade for player who is basically high usage Hezonja.

what if #2 gets you a future star? its all about risks
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#15 » by thelead » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:37 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Pat Riley as player, assistent, coach and executive won TEN chmapionships. 3 times coach of the year, executive of a year.
That's why players want to play for him. Guy proved himself in every aspect of basketball.

On top of that it's freaking Miami.


As for any Wiggins trade idea, it should be some "hall of shame" for posters entertaining idea of trade for player who is basically high usage Hezonja.

what if #2 gets you a future star? its all about risks

Exactly. We're in cap hell anyway. If you can draft Edwards and he turns into a Donovan Mitchell type of player, the trade was worth it. It is a risk of drafting a bust and taking on a ton of salary. Not sure what other options we really have to land a star though.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#16 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:54 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Pat Riley as player, assistent, coach and executive won TEN chmapionships. 3 times coach of the year, executive of a year.
That's why players want to play for him. Guy proved himself in every aspect of basketball.

On top of that it's freaking Miami.


As for any Wiggins trade idea, it should be some "hall of shame" for posters entertaining idea of trade for player who is basically high usage Hezonja.

what if #2 gets you a future star? its all about risks

Issue is what do we have that interests GS? Vuc AG would they be interested in a 1 year Fournier rental? Is this where Bamba leaves and we continue with Vuc/Birch C rotation?
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#17 » by Max Power » Wed Sep 9, 2020 4:02 pm

I wish the Magic would get bold again as an organization. Gabriel and even Otis Smith took chances and the Magic made finals runs as a result. It’s hard to say how they get back to that. WeHam isn’t that. Don’t expect us to go much further than we have with those two in charge. I love Clifford as a coach. I think he’s guy who’d really find his due success with a roster with legit offensive talent.

But this isn’t Miami. Riley has laid the ground work for the Heats constant success over 25 years there. They are Spurs East. I also don’t think Eric Spolstra gets the credit he’s due. The guy is a conference finalist with a team that’s more chemistry than star talent. He’s got to get the credit for that.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#18 » by fendilim » Wed Sep 9, 2020 4:47 pm

One thing i know is we shouldnt model the Bucks.

We need more than one capable scorer on our team. The Bucks really struggled whenHeat clamped down on Giannis.

We need shooters also, which the Heat have done well.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#19 » by Def Swami » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:21 pm

To model the Heat is to simply be aggressive and competent. It's literally the opposite of what we've been. Miami's success of this current team has little to do with selling South Beach, and everything to do with being really good at the draft, player development, trades, and coaching.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#20 » by The Effect » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:30 pm

2 things

1 - The warriors or wolves are NOT TRADING A TOP 2 PICK FOR AARON GORDON NO MATTER WHAT BLEACHER REPORT OR FANSIDED WANT YOU TO BELIEVE! a deal for a AG and wolves would likely have to be ag for culver and 17, not 1. a GS trade would have to be Vuc (because of contracts) plus 15 plus another first, plus likely another player (i could see the warriors wanting iwundu). Which i would still do (for edwards) but i still think the warriors say no

2 - The only player worth trading up for is Edwards. If we cant get him, hang up the phone and move on. Willing to bet anything hes going #1, so would have to trade with the wolves and i cant imagine what they would want from our team for #1. tried to put together a trade that works for both teams and the Cap and couldnt do it. We dont have the pieces. AG+15 wouldnt be enough. they dont need Vuc. cant imagine they want fultz with Dlo there. Isaac maybe, but hes hurt and out atleast a year and would need more than isaac and 15 (i know all you guys will get mad at that, but its true).

The one trade i think could work with the wolves would be a 3 way trade that includes the suns
some kind of deal that looks like

Orlando - 1st pick
Wolves - Devin Booker
Suns - AG+15+17

With other pieces from all 3 teams thrown in

I cant imagine the suns would WANT to make that deal, but if booker forces a trade to Minn (long running rumor of KAT\Dlo\Booker friendship and wanting to team up), i think this is what would be required, and even then, its likely the suns would rather have the 1st\17th picks instead of AG+15+17

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