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Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model?

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#21 » by The Effect » Wed Sep 9, 2020 5:32 pm

fendilim wrote:One thing i know is we shouldnt model the Bucks.

We need more than one capable scorer on our team. The Bucks really struggled whenHeat clamped down on Giannis.

We need shooters also, which the Heat have done well.


What do you mean, ive been reading on this site for years that scorers arent important, its all about defense and wingspan. Scoring is an afterthought, just fill the team with 3&D role players and win with defense! :banghead:

at this point, id kill for one capable scorer :lol:
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#22 » by Dubious Kitty » Wed Sep 9, 2020 8:14 pm

We’re going the exact opposite direction as the heat. They clearly value offensive players and a coach that can get them to play good team defense.

We have a good defensive coach but don’t seem to give a damn about getting offensive players.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#23 » by Ducklett » Wed Sep 9, 2020 9:01 pm

Dubious Kitty wrote:We’re going the exact opposite direction as the heat. They clearly value offensive players and a coach that can get them to play good team defense.

We have a good defensive coach but don’t seem to give a damn about getting offensive players.


Our coach is pretty inept on the offensive side of the game.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#24 » by zaymon » Wed Sep 9, 2020 9:16 pm

Ducklett wrote:
Dubious Kitty wrote:We’re going the exact opposite direction as the heat. They clearly value offensive players and a coach that can get them to play good team defense.

We have a good defensive coach but don’t seem to give a damn about getting offensive players.


Our coach is pretty inept on the offensive side of the game.

Hornets were ninth best offense in the nba under Clifford two times, with only Kemba as their notable offensive player. I dont know why you think Clifford is inept. Many players had their best offensive years under Steve.
Regarding winning model we should learn from all succesful teams not only Miami.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#25 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed Sep 9, 2020 10:07 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Pat Riley as player, assistent, coach and executive won TEN chmapionships. 3 times coach of the year, executive of a year.
That's why players want to play for him. Guy proved himself in every aspect of basketball.

On top of that it's freaking Miami.


As for any Wiggins trade idea, it should be some "hall of shame" for posters entertaining idea of trade for player who is basically high usage Hezonja.

what if #2 gets you a future star? its all about risks


The chances a #2 equals a bonafide star is still pretty slim looking back at the history of selected #2's.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#26 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed Sep 9, 2020 10:12 pm

Heat do have the best souting in the NBA considering the amount of Undrafted Free Agents, 2nd Round picks or late 1st rounders the Heat turn into bonafide legit role players on that team. They win without Butler or Dragic in many games due to those role talents doing what they do best.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#27 » by PrimeThyme » Wed Sep 9, 2020 10:13 pm

They should, but they would have to start with a change of ownership and an entirely new Bball ops. Sure, Miami is a desirable location, but so is New York and look at the free agents (or lack thereof) they've attracted since Melo. Strong ownership/leadership, is just as important as location. Combine the two and you have the Heat which is what makes them so attractive right now.

We have zero chance of becoming a Miami at this point in time. Our chance of becoming a contender, as it's always been (outside of the T Mac/Hill outlier), is getting lucky in the draft and drafting a superstar type player.

Unfortunately for us though, we are firmly cemented in NBA purgatory and the chances of that happening are pretty low atm.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#28 » by SOUL » Wed Sep 9, 2020 10:32 pm

Things that Miami does well that we would need to do (and that some of you guys "argue against") for it to work and to change the culture here:

1. Play young players. Not only play them, give them important roles: They played/benched young players as they saw fit, but they gave them chances. Nunn got a lot of playing time in the regular season (less now), Herro has steadily been trusted in big moments, same with Duncan Robinson

It's not like they had some huge pedigree either. Duncan Robinson played 29 minutes a game when the prior year he played 10 minutes and shot 39/28. Herro played 27 minutes as a rookie. Nunn played 29 minutes as a rookie. None of these guys earned **** in the NBA yet they were trusted enough to do their job out there. Now imagine if they played them 10-18 minutes a game and told them to sit in the corner and watch everybody else dribble the ball and people judged them from 3-8 shooting performances or getting took out while they were hot and not coming back until 30 minutes later in real time. That's not development and that doesn't help their team. It's not like they don't have a bunch of guys that could demand the ball over them either.. Dragic, Butler, Adebayo, Crowder could all have demanded bigger offensive roles. We have a bunch of posters that like to say they haven't "earned it" yet but then complain when our young guys take 3-4 years to develop into role players or slightly above that. Put them in positions to be involved with the team and succeed. I think the only thing we did well on that front was starting Fultz.

This also requires drafting offensively inclined players.

2. Play guys in specific roles: Dragic should start for them but Spo realized he was more potent off of the bench, at least for a lot of the regular season. Then they adjust when they play certain teams and when the playoffs are near he's called upon more often.

Their starting lineup in the playoffs is vastly different from what they did in the regular season. They played at a pretty slow pace but they throw lots of different lineups at you that have floor spacers, big guys that run the floor, and guys that get up in your face. But yeah, they weren't a "cut and paste" lineup/minutes sort of team like we sort of tend to be. Teams know we're surrounding Ross with 2-3 non-offensive threats, they know when Fultz is coming back, they know what the pecking order will generally be out there and at that point it's just us executing it against them defending it. I never know where the ball is going with the Heat because Butler could be trying to draw fouls, Bam might be bruising inside, their 3 point shooters might get hot, I think they share the ball really well.

3. Playing tough and with edge. Self explanatory. We have a pretty soft team. We are coached well defensively but I don't trust us in big games (look @ our record against good teams) or in the playoffs to man up and play with edge and poise.

There's a lot more little things but yeah...
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#29 » by tiderulz » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:53 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Pat Riley as player, assistent, coach and executive won TEN chmapionships. 3 times coach of the year, executive of a year.
That's why players want to play for him. Guy proved himself in every aspect of basketball.

On top of that it's freaking Miami.


As for any Wiggins trade idea, it should be some "hall of shame" for posters entertaining idea of trade for player who is basically high usage Hezonja.

what if #2 gets you a future star? its all about risks


The chances a #2 equals a bonafide star is still pretty slim looking back at the history of selected #2's.

well, you have to make sure you choose the right player. but if you look at 2-4 of the past drafts, and since you get to choose first after #1, you could have had Ja Morant, Luka, Tatum, Ingram/Brown, Dangelo/Kristaps, Embiid, Oladipo, Beal. Just because other teams didnt always make the right choice at #2 doesnt mean its a bad pick. Thats like saying the first pick isnt valuable because Cleveland took Bennett and Philly took Fultz.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#30 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:58 am

tiderulz wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:what if #2 gets you a future star? its all about risks


The chances a #2 equals a bonafide star is still pretty slim looking back at the history of selected #2's.

well, you have to make sure you choose the right player. but if you look at 2-4 of the past drafts, and since you get to choose first after #1, you could have had Ja Morant, Luka, Tatum, Ingram/Brown, Dangelo/Kristaps, Embiid, Oladipo, Beal. Just because other teams didnt always make the right choice at #2 doesnt mean its a bad pick. Thats like saying the first pick isnt valuable because Cleveland took Bennett and Philly took Fultz.


I'm still of the opinion that this draft isn't THAT bad and that some player will emerge as a star.
However, i have zero desire to get Wiggins.
His contract will hunt any team that has him for 3 more years.
If salary indeed declines, are you willing to spend 1/3 of your salary cap on player that has no playing value just to get a pick that might or may not be all that amazing?

Not to mention that i simply don't see scenario where somebody as smart as Bob Myers will take Gordon and think he has great player and just surrender 2# pick.

I think Warriors could trade pick and Wiggins and pick. for Myles Turner and Jeremy Lamb. Especially if Oladipo is walking.

I mean, what's the logic of playing both Gordon and Green where all their skills overlap?
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#31 » by zaymon » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:43 am

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
The chances a #2 equals a bonafide star is still pretty slim looking back at the history of selected #2's.

well, you have to make sure you choose the right player. but if you look at 2-4 of the past drafts, and since you get to choose first after #1, you could have had Ja Morant, Luka, Tatum, Ingram/Brown, Dangelo/Kristaps, Embiid, Oladipo, Beal. Just because other teams didnt always make the right choice at #2 doesnt mean its a bad pick. Thats like saying the first pick isnt valuable because Cleveland took Bennett and Philly took Fultz.


I'm still of the opinion that this draft isn't THAT bad and that some player will emerge as a star.
However, i have zero desire to get Wiggins.
His contract will hunt any team that has him for 3 more years.
If salary indeed declines, are you willing to spend 1/3 of your salary cap on player that has no playing value just to get a pick that might or may not be all that amazing?

Not to mention that i simply don't see scenario where somebody as smart as Bob Myers will take Gordon and think he has great player and just surrender 2# pick.

I think Warriors could trade pick and Wiggins and pick. for Myles Turner and Jeremy Lamb. Especially if Oladipo is walking.

I mean, what's the logic of playing both Gordon and Green where all their skills overlap?

Its the same logic that makes Rockets, Clippers, Heat, Celtics play mostly wings/ forwards. Yes Gordon is not good enough shooter, but he is a better passer than most, it could work for them.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#32 » by tiderulz » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:09 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
The chances a #2 equals a bonafide star is still pretty slim looking back at the history of selected #2's.

well, you have to make sure you choose the right player. but if you look at 2-4 of the past drafts, and since you get to choose first after #1, you could have had Ja Morant, Luka, Tatum, Ingram/Brown, Dangelo/Kristaps, Embiid, Oladipo, Beal. Just because other teams didnt always make the right choice at #2 doesnt mean its a bad pick. Thats like saying the first pick isnt valuable because Cleveland took Bennett and Philly took Fultz.


I'm still of the opinion that this draft isn't THAT bad and that some player will emerge as a star.
However, i have zero desire to get Wiggins.
His contract will hunt any team that has him for 3 more years.
If salary indeed declines, are you willing to spend 1/3 of your salary cap on player that has no playing value just to get a pick that might or may not be all that amazing?

Not to mention that i simply don't see scenario where somebody as smart as Bob Myers will take Gordon and think he has great player and just surrender 2# pick.

I think Warriors could trade pick and Wiggins and pick. for Myles Turner and Jeremy Lamb. Especially if Oladipo is walking.

I mean, what's the logic of playing both Gordon and Green where all their skills overlap?

again, do you swallow 2 years @ $30 mil to draft a star? 2 years isnt a crippling situation. now granted, you have to feel that a player available after #1 is that player, but if so, I pull the trigger.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#33 » by jonbob17 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:26 pm

Maybe the Magic should try to hire the Heat shooting coach.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#34 » by TheGlyde » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:39 am

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:well, you have to make sure you choose the right player. but if you look at 2-4 of the past drafts, and since you get to choose first after #1, you could have had Ja Morant, Luka, Tatum, Ingram/Brown, Dangelo/Kristaps, Embiid, Oladipo, Beal. Just because other teams didnt always make the right choice at #2 doesnt mean its a bad pick. Thats like saying the first pick isnt valuable because Cleveland took Bennett and Philly took Fultz.


I'm still of the opinion that this draft isn't THAT bad and that some player will emerge as a star.
However, i have zero desire to get Wiggins.
His contract will hunt any team that has him for 3 more years.
If salary indeed declines, are you willing to spend 1/3 of your salary cap on player that has no playing value just to get a pick that might or may not be all that amazing?

Not to mention that i simply don't see scenario where somebody as smart as Bob Myers will take Gordon and think he has great player and just surrender 2# pick.

I think Warriors could trade pick and Wiggins and pick. for Myles Turner and Jeremy Lamb. Especially if Oladipo is walking.

I mean, what's the logic of playing both Gordon and Green where all their skills overlap?

again, do you swallow 2 years @ $30 mil to draft a star? 2 years isnt a crippling situation. now granted, you have to feel that a player available after #1 is that player, but if so, I pull the trigger.


What if you increase the burden by 50%? Because Wiggins has 3 years left.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#35 » by tiderulz » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:41 am

TheGlyde wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I'm still of the opinion that this draft isn't THAT bad and that some player will emerge as a star.
However, i have zero desire to get Wiggins.
His contract will hunt any team that has him for 3 more years.
If salary indeed declines, are you willing to spend 1/3 of your salary cap on player that has no playing value just to get a pick that might or may not be all that amazing?

Not to mention that i simply don't see scenario where somebody as smart as Bob Myers will take Gordon and think he has great player and just surrender 2# pick.

I think Warriors could trade pick and Wiggins and pick. for Myles Turner and Jeremy Lamb. Especially if Oladipo is walking.

I mean, what's the logic of playing both Gordon and Green where all their skills overlap?

again, do you swallow 2 years @ $30 mil to draft a star? 2 years isnt a crippling situation. now granted, you have to feel that a player available after #1 is that player, but if so, I pull the trigger.


What if you increase the burden by 50%? Because Wiggins has 3 years left.

you sure about that? Shamsports only have 2 years. so next year and the year after. thats it. i believe he signed the extension 2017
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#36 » by TheGlyde » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:48 am

tiderulz wrote:
TheGlyde wrote:
tiderulz wrote:again, do you swallow 2 years @ $30 mil to draft a star? 2 years isnt a crippling situation. now granted, you have to feel that a player available after #1 is that player, but if so, I pull the trigger.


What if you increase the burden by 50%? Because Wiggins has 3 years left.

you sure about that? Shamsports only have 2 years. so next year and the year after. thats it. i believe he signed the extension 2017


https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/GSW.html

Signed 5-yr max salary extension beginning in 2018-19 on October 11, 2017.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#37 » by tiderulz » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:52 am

TheGlyde wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
TheGlyde wrote:
What if you increase the burden by 50%? Because Wiggins has 3 years left.

you sure about that? Shamsports only have 2 years. so next year and the year after. thats it. i believe he signed the extension 2017


https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/GSW.html

Signed 5-yr max salary extension beginning in 2018-19 on October 11, 2017.

hrm, guess Shams has it wrong.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#38 » by Def Swami » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:07 am

This is the Heat model.
"You know me, I'm all about now," Riley said earlier this season. "We're going to press on and we're not going to stop."

The Heat do not believe in three-year plans.

This is in opposition to how many younger executives have operated teams over the past 10 to 15 years. Numerous rebuilds have been designed to be low and slow, through high draft picks and player development. It was most personified, fairly or not, by former Philadelphia 76ers general manager Sam Hinkie's approach, labeled "The Process."

Riley is more Patton than Process. It's typically how he has operated since taking control of the team 25 years ago. That philosophy is the basis of one of the most remarkable one-year turnarounds in recent league history.

Last season, the Heat were 39-43, one of only three losing seasons in the previous 17 years. The other two came when Dwyane Wade was sidelined because of a season-ending injury and when Chris Bosh had blood clots that ended his season.

So Riley traded, cut or opted not to re-sign nine players from last season's team, executing a one-year build that has the Heat in the Eastern Conference finals. A good plan, violently executed now.

"Every team's situation is different, that's just a fact," one league general manager said. "But there are probably owners out there who will look at what the Heat have done and think, 'Why can't we do that?' instead of bottoming out, then building back up."

Said another longtime front-office executive: "There's a lot of different ways to win. But the Heat did make this turnaround happen faster than normal, and that doesn't go unnoticed by people who have been sitting through losing."

Looking at what the Heat have done this season is polarizing around the league, especially in parts where slow rebuilds have worked. This includes the potential conference finalist Boston Celtics, who were primarily built through top-five draft picks (courtesy of the Brooklyn Nets) before adding stars in free agency.

Playoff teams like the Utah Jazz, Denver Nuggets, Memphis Grizzlies and the Process-driven 76ers are some of the franchises that have landed multiple stars via the draft after periods of rebuilding.

The Heat have drafted inside the top nine only twice in 18 years. The highest draft pick on their roster is Andre Iguodala, selected ninth in 2004 by Philadelphia.

"Miami's strategy is always to be as good as possible every season," a league executive said. "They are studs at team building. But you have to acknowledge that strategy also led them to miss the playoffs in three of the last five years."

It is true, Riley's style leads to big swings and sometimes big misses. He chases the top free agents nearly every year, even when the Heat don't have salary-cap space. Riley persuaded free agent Jimmy Butler to pick the Heat last summer even though they lacked sufficient cap space. It's the same thought process that led him to pursue the 36-year-old Iguodala at the trade deadline.

Part of this strategy is made possible by the Heat's scouting and development system. Riley moved players out from last season's team because there were reinforcements coming from the lower ranks. Recent picks Bam Adebayo and Tyler Herro -- the only players he has ever selected from his alma mater, Kentucky -- have quickly outperformed their draft position, as have undrafted prospects Duncan Robinson and Kendrick Nunn.

One reason Miami was able to get Butler was that Josh Richardson, a former 40th overall pick, had developed into an asset Philadelphia wanted.

But Riley traded Richardson and would probably be willing to trade some of the other young talent on his roster to go after another big fish. Because that's how Riley rolls.

Riley is not alone on this path. Both the Los Angeles Lakers and LA Clippers went into warp drive to build their teams, swapping the future for the present.

The Lakers traded two recent No. 2 picks, Lonzo Ball and Brandon Ingram, and two future picks for Anthony Davis. The Clippers traded their best young player, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and five first-round picks to get Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. And all season, the two L.A. teams looked to be on a collision course for the Western Conference finals.

Those were moves after the heart of the Miami general. And Riley would like nothing more than to get a shot at either team in the Finals.

"You gotta take some risks," Riley said. "You never know if they're going to work out, but we want to win."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29847319/pat-riley-one-year-rebuild-miami-heat-eastern-conference-finals
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#39 » by Skybox » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:45 am

Def Swami wrote:This is the Heat model.
"You know me, I'm all about now," Riley said earlier this season. "We're going to press on and we're not going to stop."

The Heat do not believe in three-year plans.

This is in opposition to how many younger executives have operated teams over the past 10 to 15 years. Numerous rebuilds have been designed to be low and slow, through high draft picks and player development. It was most personified, fairly or not, by former Philadelphia 76ers general manager Sam Hinkie's approach, labeled "The Process."

Riley is more Patton than Process. It's typically how he has operated since taking control of the team 25 years ago. That philosophy is the basis of one of the most remarkable one-year turnarounds in recent league history.

Last season, the Heat were 39-43, one of only three losing seasons in the previous 17 years. The other two came when Dwyane Wade was sidelined because of a season-ending injury and when Chris Bosh had blood clots that ended his season.

So Riley traded, cut or opted not to re-sign nine players from last season's team, executing a one-year build that has the Heat in the Eastern Conference finals. A good plan, violently executed now.

"Every team's situation is different, that's just a fact," one league general manager said. "But there are probably owners out there who will look at what the Heat have done and think, 'Why can't we do that?' instead of bottoming out, then building back up."

Said another longtime front-office executive: "There's a lot of different ways to win. But the Heat did make this turnaround happen faster than normal, and that doesn't go unnoticed by people who have been sitting through losing."

Looking at what the Heat have done this season is polarizing around the league, especially in parts where slow rebuilds have worked. This includes the potential conference finalist Boston Celtics, who were primarily built through top-five draft picks (courtesy of the Brooklyn Nets) before adding stars in free agency.

Playoff teams like the Utah Jazz, Denver Nuggets, Memphis Grizzlies and the Process-driven 76ers are some of the franchises that have landed multiple stars via the draft after periods of rebuilding.

The Heat have drafted inside the top nine only twice in 18 years. The highest draft pick on their roster is Andre Iguodala, selected ninth in 2004 by Philadelphia.

"Miami's strategy is always to be as good as possible every season," a league executive said. "They are studs at team building. But you have to acknowledge that strategy also led them to miss the playoffs in three of the last five years."

It is true, Riley's style leads to big swings and sometimes big misses. He chases the top free agents nearly every year, even when the Heat don't have salary-cap space. Riley persuaded free agent Jimmy Butler to pick the Heat last summer even though they lacked sufficient cap space. It's the same thought process that led him to pursue the 36-year-old Iguodala at the trade deadline.

Part of this strategy is made possible by the Heat's scouting and development system. Riley moved players out from last season's team because there were reinforcements coming from the lower ranks. Recent picks Bam Adebayo and Tyler Herro -- the only players he has ever selected from his alma mater, Kentucky -- have quickly outperformed their draft position, as have undrafted prospects Duncan Robinson and Kendrick Nunn.

One reason Miami was able to get Butler was that Josh Richardson, a former 40th overall pick, had developed into an asset Philadelphia wanted.

But Riley traded Richardson and would probably be willing to trade some of the other young talent on his roster to go after another big fish. Because that's how Riley rolls.

Riley is not alone on this path. Both the Los Angeles Lakers and LA Clippers went into warp drive to build their teams, swapping the future for the present.

The Lakers traded two recent No. 2 picks, Lonzo Ball and Brandon Ingram, and two future picks for Anthony Davis. The Clippers traded their best young player, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and five first-round picks to get Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. And all season, the two L.A. teams looked to be on a collision course for the Western Conference finals.

Those were moves after the heart of the Miami general. And Riley would like nothing more than to get a shot at either team in the Finals.

"You gotta take some risks," Riley said. "You never know if they're going to work out, but we want to win."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29847319/pat-riley-one-year-rebuild-miami-heat-eastern-conference-finals


“A good plan, violently executed now”...perfect summary of GM Riley
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#40 » by OrlandoNed » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:19 pm

Riley runs his team like a mob boss.

Weltman and Hammond run our team like the guys in the commercials that are suffering from low T counts and erectile dysfunction.

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