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Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model?

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#41 » by zaymon » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:49 pm

I am amazed that Riley strategy works. Seems like a bad idea. In recent years most of his moves outside draft and development were also awful. Well sometimes even bad plan works, especially if you draft Wade and sign Lebron.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#42 » by drsd » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:40 am

SOUL wrote:Things that Miami does well that we would need to do (and that some of you guys "argue against") for it to work and to change the culture here:

1. Play young players.
2. Play guys in specific roles
3. Playing tough and with edge.


1 and 2 are not self-consistent.

Young players need to learn to win. For point 3: coaches have a goal to get players to play with maximal effort. So: #3 driven by #2 leads to #1.

A team like the Hawks is a current example of throwing young players to the foxes. It is basically what the Sixers did, and it was a disaster. Whereas a team like the Celts took their youth-development correctly and now are a near-elite team.


..
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#43 » by Optimus_Steel » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:34 am

zaymon wrote:I am amazed that Riley strategy works. Seems like a bad idea. In recent years most of his moves outside draft and development were also awful. Well sometimes even bad plan works, especially if you draft Wade and sign Lebron.
That's because he doesn't sit on his ass and keeps trying. Yea some moves made were terrible but he didn't pack things up and wait a few years like the Magic, he stayed aggressive pursuing deals and scouting for diamonds in the rough like he usually does. Dude is relentless.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#44 » by Optimus_Steel » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:38 am

OrlandoNed wrote:Riley runs his team like a mob boss.

Weltman and Hammond run our team like the guys in the commercials that are suffering from low T counts and erectile dysfunction.
This is a good description of the situation. Riley is a shark and we have management guys that run the Westminster Dog Show.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#45 » by Skin » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:12 am

OrlandoNed wrote:Riley runs his team like a mob boss.

Weltman and Hammond run our team like the guys in the commercials that are suffering from low T counts and erectile dysfunction.

:rofl:
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#46 » by Skin » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:32 am

drsd wrote:
SOUL wrote:Things that Miami does well that we would need to do (and that some of you guys "argue against") for it to work and to change the culture here:

1. Play young players.
2. Play guys in specific roles
3. Playing tough and with edge.


1 and 2 are not self-consistent.

Young players need to learn to win. For point 3: coaches have a goal to get players to play with maximal effort. So: #3 driven by #2 leads to #1.

A team like the Hawks is a current example of throwing young players to the foxes. It is basically what the Sixers did, and it was a disaster. Whereas a team like the Celts took their youth-development correctly and now are a near-elite team.


..

Way way way too early to say that the Hawks current plan is a bad one. Their strategy has lead to a nice collection of young talent... and they are 28th in the league in salary spent and are prime for a max FA or 2. Meanwhile we have the 5th most expensive team.

Sixers strategy to get their talent was not a bad one. They've made bad trades and bad signings. New GM has been trash. Poor Hinkie.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#47 » by Kent » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:45 am

The Heat are my least favorite team.

BUT...

I have to admit, the way this team plays is very admirable and entertaining.

They have my respect for how they're performing and for how Riley has run that show the past 2.5-ish decades.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#48 » by drsd » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:20 am

Skin wrote:Way way way too early to say that the Hawks current plan is a bad one. Their strategy has lead to a nice collection of young talent... and they are 28th in the league in salary spent and are prime for a max FA or 2. Meanwhile we have the 5th most expensive team.

Sixers strategy to get their talent was not a bad one. They've made bad trades and bad signings. New GM has been trash. Poor Hinkie.


Collecting young talent is great. Teaching said talent how to win is hard. Teams that do this well - eg. Boston - are excellent.


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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#49 » by BaunceyChillups » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:57 pm

What's to learn? Pat Riley giving players like Dion Waiters and Tyler Johnson 50 million dollar deals? The Heat were a middling team until they got extremely lucky that they were able to turn a bad player like Josh Richardson into a good player like Jimmy Butler.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#50 » by zaymon » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:14 pm

BaunceyChillups wrote:What's to learn? Pat Riley giving players like Dion Waiters and Tyler Johnson 50 million dollar deals? The Heat were a middling team until they got extremely lucky that they were able to turn a bad player like Josh Richardson into a good player like Jimmy Butler.

I think Riley as executive did a very bad job, short sighted and greedy moves but their scouting department is elite, and their team building philosophy is visionary. Sometimes you made your own luck and Riley seems that way.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#51 » by Dubious Kitty » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:30 pm

BaunceyChillups wrote:What's to learn? Pat Riley giving players like Dion Waiters and Tyler Johnson 50 million dollar deals? The Heat were a middling team until they got extremely lucky that they were able to turn a bad player like Josh Richardson into a good player like Jimmy Butler.


For which he didnt give up, like we have done, and continued to pursue deals to unload them.

We sign a bad contract and double down on it.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#52 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:17 am

zaymon wrote:
BaunceyChillups wrote:What's to learn? Pat Riley giving players like Dion Waiters and Tyler Johnson 50 million dollar deals? The Heat were a middling team until they got extremely lucky that they were able to turn a bad player like Josh Richardson into a good player like Jimmy Butler.

I think Riley as executive did a very bad job, short sighted and greedy moves but their scouting department is elite, and their team building philosophy is visionary. Sometimes you made your own luck and Riley seems that way.


Interesting.
Tyler Johnson already signed offer shet with Nets as RFA, Heat could let him walk or match.
They matched and constructed contract to front loud first years where they knew they won't do anything with salay.


They menaged to flip Weiters, Winslow and James Johnson into Igoudala and Crowder ( both players help them now ).

They flipped Tyler Johnson into Ryan Anderson, than streached his $15M contract in 3 years. That trade put them below luxury cap

The tax bill in Miami will drop from $9.7 million to $1.7 million. That figure could drop further if Kelly Olynyk misses out on his $1 million bonus for playing 1,700 minutes, which he is not on pace to do.

Miami will create a $6.27 million trade exception with the deal, which Ellington must approve. Anderson has a cap hit of $20.4 million this season and $21.3 million in 2019-20, of which $15.6 million is guaranteed, with the remaining amount becoming fully protected if he isn't waived by July 10.


Even when he did questionable moves, he come on top of them.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#53 » by zaymon » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:44 am

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
BaunceyChillups wrote:What's to learn? Pat Riley giving players like Dion Waiters and Tyler Johnson 50 million dollar deals? The Heat were a middling team until they got extremely lucky that they were able to turn a bad player like Josh Richardson into a good player like Jimmy Butler.

I think Riley as executive did a very bad job, short sighted and greedy moves but their scouting department is elite, and their team building philosophy is visionary. Sometimes you made your own luck and Riley seems that way.


Interesting.
Tyler Johnson already signed offer shet with Nets as RFA, Heat could let him walk or match.
They matched and constructed contract to front loud first years where they knew they won't do anything with salay.


They menaged to flip Weiters, Winslow and James Johnson into Igoudala and Crowder ( both players help them now ).

They flipped Tyler Johnson into Ryan Anderson, than streached his $15M contract in 3 years. That trade put them below luxury cap

The tax bill in Miami will drop from $9.7 million to $1.7 million. That figure could drop further if Kelly Olynyk misses out on his $1 million bonus for playing 1,700 minutes, which he is not on pace to do.

Miami will create a $6.27 million trade exception with the deal, which Ellington must approve. Anderson has a cap hit of $20.4 million this season and $21.3 million in 2019-20, of which $15.6 million is guaranteed, with the remaining amount becoming fully protected if he isn't waived by July 10.


Even when he did questionable moves, he come on top of them.

Yes he somehow managed to flip bad contracts into good veterans but it doesnt make them good contracts and it doesnt make veterans some incredible assets.
Dragic is 34, Iguodala aproaches 37, Butler 31, Crowder 30.
Aminu looks like teenager next to them, he is comparable to Crowder and we got him for free.
For me it all comes down to Dragic. How many years he has left ? He is brilliant and underrated playmaker.
If Miami had half of the injuries we had this year they would be in a very deep s**t right now.
Bold Predictions:
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2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#54 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:30 am

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:I think Riley as executive did a very bad job, short sighted and greedy moves but their scouting department is elite, and their team building philosophy is visionary. Sometimes you made your own luck and Riley seems that way.


Interesting.
Tyler Johnson already signed offer shet with Nets as RFA, Heat could let him walk or match.
They matched and constructed contract to front loud first years where they knew they won't do anything with salay.


They menaged to flip Weiters, Winslow and James Johnson into Igoudala and Crowder ( both players help them now ).

They flipped Tyler Johnson into Ryan Anderson, than streached his $15M contract in 3 years. That trade put them below luxury cap

The tax bill in Miami will drop from $9.7 million to $1.7 million. That figure could drop further if Kelly Olynyk misses out on his $1 million bonus for playing 1,700 minutes, which he is not on pace to do.

Miami will create a $6.27 million trade exception with the deal, which Ellington must approve. Anderson has a cap hit of $20.4 million this season and $21.3 million in 2019-20, of which $15.6 million is guaranteed, with the remaining amount becoming fully protected if he isn't waived by July 10.


Even when he did questionable moves, he come on top of them.

Yes he somehow managed to flip bad contracts into good veterans but it doesnt make them good contracts and it doesnt make veterans some incredible assets.
Dragic is 34, Iguodala aproaches 37, Butler 31, Crowder 30.
Aminu looks like teenager next to them, he is comparable to Crowder and we got him for free.
For me it all comes down to Dragic. How many years he has left ? He is brilliant and underrated playmaker.
If Miami had half of the injuries we had this year they would be in a very deep s**t right now.


Orlando Magic during only sucessful season, last year, had healthiest starting 5 since 1994 ( any team).
Heat has cap space if Dragic walks. Given they are frontrunner to go to nba finals now, players will want to go there.
They won championship 6 years ago, they are doing fine. I don't see why you try to compare with them, they are couple of light years ahead.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#55 » by zaymon » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:44 am

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Interesting.
Tyler Johnson already signed offer shet with Nets as RFA, Heat could let him walk or match.
They matched and constructed contract to front loud first years where they knew they won't do anything with salay.


They menaged to flip Weiters, Winslow and James Johnson into Igoudala and Crowder ( both players help them now ).

They flipped Tyler Johnson into Ryan Anderson, than streached his $15M contract in 3 years. That trade put them below luxury cap



Even when he did questionable moves, he come on top of them.

Yes he somehow managed to flip bad contracts into good veterans but it doesnt make them good contracts and it doesnt make veterans some incredible assets.
Dragic is 34, Iguodala aproaches 37, Butler 31, Crowder 30.
Aminu looks like teenager next to them, he is comparable to Crowder and we got him for free.
For me it all comes down to Dragic. How many years he has left ? He is brilliant and underrated playmaker.
If Miami had half of the injuries we had this year they would be in a very deep s**t right now.


Orlando Magic during only sucessful season, last year, had healthiest starting 5 since 1994 ( any team).
Heat has cap space if Dragic walks. Given they are frontrunner to go to nba finals now, players will want to go there.
They won championship 6 years ago, they are doing fine. I don't see why you try to compare with them, they are couple of light years ahead.

Only thing i compared is resigning veterans. I think we did the right move and still have enough flexibility in the future. I dont think its likely we will follow Miami scenario, we need to carve our own path
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2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#56 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:53 am

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:Yes he somehow managed to flip bad contracts into good veterans but it doesnt make them good contracts and it doesnt make veterans some incredible assets.
Dragic is 34, Iguodala aproaches 37, Butler 31, Crowder 30.
Aminu looks like teenager next to them, he is comparable to Crowder and we got him for free.
For me it all comes down to Dragic. How many years he has left ? He is brilliant and underrated playmaker.
If Miami had half of the injuries we had this year they would be in a very deep s**t right now.


Orlando Magic during only sucessful season, last year, had healthiest starting 5 since 1994 ( any team).
Heat has cap space if Dragic walks. Given they are frontrunner to go to nba finals now, players will want to go there.
They won championship 6 years ago, they are doing fine. I don't see why you try to compare with them, they are couple of light years ahead.

Only thing i compared is resigning veterans. I think we did the right move and still have enough flexibility in the future. I dont think its likely we will follow Miami scenario, we need to carve our own path


Can you elaborate what flexibility Magic have ?
Nose -deep in salary cap for at least 2 years.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#57 » by zaymon » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:14 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Orlando Magic during only sucessful season, last year, had healthiest starting 5 since 1994 ( any team).
Heat has cap space if Dragic walks. Given they are frontrunner to go to nba finals now, players will want to go there.
They won championship 6 years ago, they are doing fine. I don't see why you try to compare with them, they are couple of light years ahead.

Only thing i compared is resigning veterans. I think we did the right move and still have enough flexibility in the future. I dont think its likely we will follow Miami scenario, we need to carve our own path


Can you elaborate what flexibility Magic have ?
Nose -deep in salary cap for at least 2 years.

I think all our veterans are movable if needed. There is no Biyombo contract on our hands at the moment. Vucevic together with Gasol and Nurkic are the only centers capable of stretching the floor and making reads like guards. After Gasol winning the championship last year and Nurkic changing Blazers on both sides after return, i guess Vucevic value is quite high, especially after what he showed against bucks. Ross positive asset, Gordon positive ( at least as an asset), Fournier had great regular season he would find a suitor in a second, i believe Aminu will be positive when he returns, those versatile forwards changed Nuggets defense, changed Heat defense, Boston aswell. I think that those veterans give us more flexibility than free capspace going forward.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#58 » by thelead » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:44 am

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:Only thing i compared is resigning veterans. I think we did the right move and still have enough flexibility in the future. I dont think its likely we will follow Miami scenario, we need to carve our own path


Can you elaborate what flexibility Magic have ?
Nose -deep in salary cap for at least 2 years.

I think all our veterans are movable if needed. There is no Biyombo contract on our hands at the moment. Vucevic together with Gasol and Nurkic are the only centers capable of stretching the floor and making reads like guards. After Gasol winning the championship last year and Nurkic changing Blazers on both sides after return, i guess Vucevic value is quite high, especially after what he showed against bucks. Ross positive asset, Gordon positive ( at least as an asset), Fournier had great regular season he would find a suitor in a second, i believe Aminu will be positive when he returns, those versatile forwards changed Nuggets defense, changed Heat defense, Boston aswell. I think that those veterans give us more flexibility than free capspace going forward.


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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#59 » by Skin » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:53 am

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:Only thing i compared is resigning veterans. I think we did the right move and still have enough flexibility in the future. I dont think its likely we will follow Miami scenario, we need to carve our own path


Can you elaborate what flexibility Magic have ?
Nose -deep in salary cap for at least 2 years.

I think all our veterans are movable if needed. There is no Biyombo contract on our hands at the moment. Vucevic together with Gasol and Nurkic are the only centers capable of stretching the floor and making reads like guards. After Gasol winning the championship last year and Nurkic changing Blazers on both sides after return, i guess Vucevic value is quite high, especially after what he showed against bucks. Ross positive asset, Gordon positive ( at least as an asset), Fournier had great regular season he would find a suitor in a second, i believe Aminu will be positive when he returns, those versatile forwards changed Nuggets defense, changed Heat defense, Boston aswell. I think that those veterans give us more flexibility than free capspace going forward.

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#60 » by dsg2021 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:13 am

I think MIA trusts in scouts more than other teams. They take those scouts and make a scouting-assisted statistics gamebox and database, only further strengthening their pure analytics.

Then they have a major draw to tougher, more disciplined and conditioned players. They have a legit MIA culture of players that Butler himself personifies. But as others mentioned, they are hugely aided by their market draw, and their history. They also have a massive tendency to get ready-now, lower-ceiling players. It’s going to look good for that reason. We also have a good culture effect in ORL with players who buy into a defensive mindset. When you’re constantly floating Top 5-10 in team defense, that’s culture.

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