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Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model?

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#61 » by MasterGMer » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:30 am

How about the Heat?
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#62 » by fendilim » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:59 am

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#63 » by Def Swami » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:18 pm

dsg2021 wrote:I think MIA trusts in scouts more than other teams. They take those scouts and make a scouting-assisted statistics gamebox and database, only further strengthening their pure analytics.

Then they have a major draw to tougher, more disciplined and conditioned players. They have a legit MIA culture of players that Butler himself personifies. But as others mentioned, they are hugely aided by their market draw, and their history. They also have a massive tendency to get ready-now, lower-ceiling players. It’s going to look good for that reason. We also have a good culture effect in ORL with players who buy into a defensive mindset. When you’re constantly floating Top 5-10 in team defense, that’s culture.

The market has no impact on this current Heat team. It's a bit of a cop out. Every small market team in the NBA should be ashamed of themselves for their chronic failures as a front office. The Heat did the work of a small market team and just happen to be located next to South Beach. It's even on record that Jimmy Butler didn't care about the market as much as the culture.

Different stars have different reasons for being attracted to Miami. Some are sucked in by Riley's legend and aura. Most people enjoy good weather. The lack of a state income tax in Florida matters. But so does everything the Heat has built: their constant pursuit of winning; three recent championships; their high conditioning standards and refusal to tolerate less from anyone of any stature; Erik Spoeltra's coaching résumé, nearing Hall of Fame quality if it isn't already there (it probably is).

"We never once spoke about Miami as a city," Lee said. "Obviously it's an amazing place with amazing people, but Jimmy wasn't going there for the beach. Since he's gotten there, I think we have gone out to eat less than 10 times and one of them was the Super Bowl. We didn't even talk about the tax advantages. The only questions he asked were of the background of the people involved and how they would build out the team."

As one rival GM put it: "The Heat have something better than trade assets."


You look at some perennially bad to mediocre small market teams (Kings, Hornets, Wolves, Suns, Pistons, and Magic), and recognize they don't have the advantage to sell their lifestyle and market to free agents, but you'd hope they would maximize their ability to draft well, develop players, make smart trades, and play hard on a night to night basis. Watching the Heat do it in a matter of a few seasons, from a position of weakness quite frankly is frustrating when you see the mind-numbing inertia of the Magic front office. The Heat did not have cap space to go out and attract a star free agent. They had some really bad to mediocre contracts between Hassan Whiteside, Justise Winslow, James Johnson, and Dion Waiters. They didn't have high draft picks, but found Herro and Bam at #13. And they didn't own their 2018 or 2021 FRP's since they lost both in the Dragic trade in 2015. They turned a cash strapped team with less draft capital than the average team to the Finals by working the margins of the league, hitting on picks, developing players who weren't drafted, and landing a star player in free agency when they didn't even have cap space.

They're a great front office. They're aggressive and competent. And it all starts at the top with Micky Arison and Pat Riley. And it trickles down to their GM Andy Elisburg and their coach Erik Spolestra. They're a well-oiled machine at this point. They are Spurs East. All the best teams in the NBA have great leadership and the fledgling ones are clearly due to their management.

That's what's so frustrating about the Magic. The Magic continue to get lapped by other smarter, better, more aggressive front offices. And it's not just the Heat. Since 2012, teams like the Jazz, Nuggets, Raptors, Pacers, Thunder, Mavericks, Celtics, and Grizzlies have reinvented themselves multiple times and accumulated multiple playoff appearances. And it has nothing to do with market size. If I were a fan of those other perennially bad teams, I would feel just as frustrated. This isn't the 2011 Heat that were selling South Beach to 3 of the best players in the league. This is the 2020 Heat built from the scrap heaps. And you have to respect it.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#64 » by OrlandoNed » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:02 pm

Def Swami wrote:
dsg2021 wrote:I think MIA trusts in scouts more than other teams. They take those scouts and make a scouting-assisted statistics gamebox and database, only further strengthening their pure analytics.

Then they have a major draw to tougher, more disciplined and conditioned players. They have a legit MIA culture of players that Butler himself personifies. But as others mentioned, they are hugely aided by their market draw, and their history. They also have a massive tendency to get ready-now, lower-ceiling players. It’s going to look good for that reason. We also have a good culture effect in ORL with players who buy into a defensive mindset. When you’re constantly floating Top 5-10 in team defense, that’s culture.

The market has no impact on this current Heat team. It's a bit of a cop out. Every small market team in the NBA should be ashamed of themselves for their chronic failures as a front office. The Heat did the work of a small market team and just happen to be located next to South Beach. It's even on record that Jimmy Butler didn't care about the market as much as the culture.

Different stars have different reasons for being attracted to Miami. Some are sucked in by Riley's legend and aura. Most people enjoy good weather. The lack of a state income tax in Florida matters. But so does everything the Heat has built: their constant pursuit of winning; three recent championships; their high conditioning standards and refusal to tolerate less from anyone of any stature; Erik Spoeltra's coaching résumé, nearing Hall of Fame quality if it isn't already there (it probably is).

"We never once spoke about Miami as a city," Lee said. "Obviously it's an amazing place with amazing people, but Jimmy wasn't going there for the beach. Since he's gotten there, I think we have gone out to eat less than 10 times and one of them was the Super Bowl. We didn't even talk about the tax advantages. The only questions he asked were of the background of the people involved and how they would build out the team."

As one rival GM put it: "The Heat have something better than trade assets."


You look at some perennially bad to mediocre small market teams (Kings, Hornets, Wolves, Suns, Pistons, and Magic), and recognize they don't have the advantage to sell their lifestyle and market to free agents, but you'd hope they would maximize their ability to draft well, develop players, make smart trades, and play hard on a night to night basis. Watching the Heat do it in a matter of a few seasons, from a position of weakness quite frankly is frustrating when you see the mind-numbing inertia of the Magic front office. The Heat did not have cap space to go out and attract a star free agent. They had some really bad to mediocre contracts between Hassan Whiteside, Justise Winslow, James Johnson, and Dion Waiters. They didn't have high draft picks, but found Herro and Bam at #13. And they didn't own their 2018 or 2021 FRP's since they lost both in the Dragic trade in 2015. They turned a cash strapped team with less draft capital than the average team to the Finals by working the margins of the league, hitting on picks, developing players who weren't drafted, and landing a star player in free agency when they didn't even have cap space.

They're a great front office. They're aggressive and competent. And it all starts at the top with Micky Arison and Pat Riley. And it trickles down to their GM Andy Elisburg and their coach Erik Spolestra. They're a well-oiled machine at this point. They are Spurs East. All the best teams in the NBA have great leadership and the fledgling ones are clearly due to their management.

That's what's so frustrating about the Magic. The Magic continue to get lapped by other smarter, better, more aggressive front offices. And it's not just the Heat. Since 2012, teams like the Jazz, Nuggets, Raptors, Pacers, Thunder, Mavericks, Celtics, and Grizzlies have reinvented themselves multiple times and accumulated multiple playoff appearances. And it has nothing to do with market size. If I were a fan of those other perennially bad teams, I would feel just as frustrated. This isn't the 2011 Heat that were selling South Beach to 3 of the best players in the league. This is the 2020 Heat built from the scrap heaps. And you have to respect it.

Orlando’s management needs to learn that stagnation equals regression and stagnation means having 5 of your top 8 have the exact same roles for several years. If you aren’t making significant moves when mediocrity is the best you can do, you aren’t doing your job.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#65 » by GameTime_3 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:50 pm

dsg2021 wrote:I think MIA trusts in scouts more than other teams. They take those scouts and make a scouting-assisted statistics gamebox and database, only further strengthening their pure analytics.

Then they have a major draw to tougher, more disciplined and conditioned players. They have a legit MIA culture of players that Butler himself personifies. But as others mentioned, they are hugely aided by their market draw, and their history. They also have a massive tendency to get ready-now, lower-ceiling players. It’s going to look good for that reason. We also have a good culture effect in ORL with players who buy into a defensive mindset. When you’re constantly floating Top 5-10 in team defense, that’s culture.


I would agree with this take. One thing Miami doees is allow the scouts to bring everything to the table. 3 simple examples that dont need alot of detail.

Wade: He wasn't Riley's first choice but the scouts pushed Riley to take him over Kaman and Hinrich. The scouts loved his fire and first step.

Bam: Most saw a big who can rebound and dunk. Scouts saw a strong man who passes well, very athletic and put him above some other players on board. Wasn't Riley first choice.

Duncan Robinson: He wasn't on anyone radar, they went to scout someone else, the saw the shooting form, they saw his balance and brought him in to create anoter Jason Kaponoo, Damon Jones type of sniper.

The scouts look beyond the usual and look for skills they can work on instead of falling in love with how high someone jumps or how long they are. The knock on Herro was short arms, not very athletic and didnt stand out much at Kentucky.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#66 » by MagicMatic » Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:03 pm

Scouting, notoriously strict training standards, being aggressive with assets, minute distribution, development, etc. all equals Miamis “Culture”.

It’s less to do with what Miami is doing “right” and more about what Orlando doesn’t do.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#67 » by dc » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:25 pm

Magic fans should really be reminded that you guys were once a FA destination. Look at how many big market teams you guys beat out in 2000 for 2 of the top 3 FAs and, if Doc Rivers is to be believed, almost got the #1 guy. You guys essentially revolutionized team building with what you did that summer. People should wonder about why what's changed between now and then.

As far as Miami being a hot destination, it's not as if it was an advantage for them in the pre-Riley days. They were just another expansion team just like the Magic and Riley going from one of the league's marquee franchises to an expansion franchise was seen as some gimmick that wouldn't last.

And their location has done next to nothing for their baseball or football teams in terms of recruiting prospects or FAs (except the years when the Marlins were willing to spend big money). If the Heat were run like the Dolphins, nobody would be talking about the advantage they have of being in Miami.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#68 » by drsd » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:31 pm

Def Swami wrote:You look at some perennially bad to mediocre small market teams (Kings, Hornets, Wolves, Suns, Pistons, and Magic), and recognize they don't have the advantage to sell their lifestyle and market to free agents, but you'd hope they would maximize their ability to draft well, develop players, make smart trades, and play hard on a night to night basis. Watching the Heat do it in a matter of a few seasons, from a position of weakness quite frankly is frustrating when you see the mind-numbing inertia of the Magic front office.


I agree with your words, but I hope you do not consider Miami a small market team. The Miami metropolitan area is the seventh largest population cluster in the USA at 6.2 million. That's more than Philly, Atlanta, Phoenix, Boston, San Fransisco, ...
There are actually very few NBA teams with a larger local fan base than the Heat.


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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#69 » by Skybox » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:45 pm

dc wrote:Magic fans should really be reminded that you guys were once a FA destination. Look at how many big market teams you guys beat out in 2000 for 2 of the top 3 FAs and, if Doc Rivers is to be believed, almost got the #1 guy. You guys essentially revolutionized team building with what you did that summer. People should wonder about why what's changed between now and then.

As far as Miami being a hot destination, it's not as if it was an advantage for them in the pre-Riley days. They were just another expansion team just like the Magic and Riley going from one of the league's marquee franchises to an expansion franchise was seen as some gimmick that wouldn't last.

And their location has done next to nothing for their baseball or football teams in terms of recruiting prospects or FAs (except the years when the Marlins were willing to spend big money). If the Heat were run like the Dolphins, nobody would be talking about the advantage they have of being in Miami.


Agree...MIA's fan base is more known for being fickle and leaving early than diehard loyal and knowledgeable...but it is a big market and they're winning at the moment (and most moments). Maybe this also contributes to their volatile "no guts no glory" management style.

When I was in college in Boston (in the Bird days). Tickets were basically sold out for years in a crappy (but cool) arena...the only seats we could get (if we waited on line for a while) were obstructed view, which literally meant you'd have a girder or an overhanging balcony directly in your sightline. But the place was rocking.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#70 » by drsd » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:43 am

A really nice "Build from the Middle" editorial on OMD:

Orlando Magic have to get draft right to follow “build-from-middle” success stories LINK

Look Magic fans, Orlando upgraded from Horrible to Mediocre. The next step will be where Magic management earn their pay checks.

The roster is unbalanced so the trade-market will matter more than the FA market given the declining cap. The narrative of this story about getting a "surprising" mid-range pick makes sense (and Okeke might already be such a player).

I said this before and will say it again: most mid-1st successes are multi-year players and not one-and-done'rs.
RJ Hampton is perhaps the player most "trained" this last season as an actual professional ball player. Short of trading up for Killian Hayes to convert him to a SG, this leaves (besides Hampton), small trade ups for either Devin Vassell or Aaron Nesmith, or Theo Maledon or Saddiq Bey.

I really like the idea of a small trade to target Nesmith (say #15, #45, and Ennis for New Orleans' #13). I also like Orlando trading down to about #20 to select Hampton, if he slides (Denver, Utah, and Milwaukee are all potential targets that could have interest in #15 - to save payroll by going for a rookie bench player).


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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#71 » by Skin » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:58 am

If Chuma can be something like Crowder that would be great.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#72 » by Kent » Tue Oct 6, 2020 6:40 pm

dc wrote:Magic fans should really be reminded that you guys were once a FA destination. Look at how many big market teams you guys beat out in 2000 for 2 of the top 3 FAs and, if Doc Rivers is to be believed, almost got the #1 guy. You guys essentially revolutionized team building with what you did that summer. People should wonder about why what's changed between now and then.


I think about this all the time.

The Magic organization was once considered "cool" and "the place to be" in the late 90s and very early 2000s.

We got Chuck Daly and Julius Erving too during that time period.

There was a vibe that they no longer give off anymore.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#73 » by dc » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:24 pm

Kent wrote:I think about this all the time.

The Magic organization was once considered "cool" and "the place to be" in the late 90s and very early 2000s.

We got Chuck Daly and Julius Erving too during that time period.

There was a vibe that they no longer give off anymore.


I believe Shaq's primary residence (which was just put up for sale last month) was always in Windermere and he always spoke highly about Orlando has an NBA desintation long after he left the Magic.

Then for a few years you had Lil' Penny and there was the Nike commercial of him hosting some big house party with people like Tiger Woods, Ken Griffey Jr and Tyra Banks among others in attendance. I'm not sure if Tiger Woods still lives in Windermere as well, but I recall him at least being a neighbor of Shaq or Penny. That added to the celebrity cachet.

I think the Magic lost that vibe when they traded Dwight and didn't get a big name back. I mean, hey, at least Steve Francis was still sort of a name you got back when you traded TMac. In the days when Orlando was a "destination", the Magic always either had Shaq or Penny or TMac or Dwight. When Dwight was traded and you didn't get a big name back, Orlando just lost its luster and it became just like any other rebuilding, small market team.

Orlando is still in Florida, so like Texas, it's a place NBA players will like. If you guys got another star with some cachet and then just some competent management you could easily get back to the old status.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#74 » by KillMonger » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:39 pm

Skin wrote:If Chuma can be something like Crowder that would be great.

crowder 2.0? wouldn't be too upset at that
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#75 » by KillMonger » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:41 pm

Skin wrote:If Chuma can be something like Crowder that would be great.

crowder 2.0? wouldn't be too upset at that
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#76 » by Skin » Wed Oct 7, 2020 4:24 am

KillMonger wrote:
Skin wrote:If Chuma can be something like Crowder that would be great.

crowder 2.0? wouldn't be too upset at that

There seems to be a lot of similarities to their scouting profiles.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#77 » by pepe1991 » Wed Oct 7, 2020 2:57 pm

Skin wrote:
KillMonger wrote:
Skin wrote:If Chuma can be something like Crowder that would be great.

crowder 2.0? wouldn't be too upset at that

There seems to be a lot of similarities to their scouting profiles.


Crowder had very strange career, he looked like a stud on some teams, and complete trash in others.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#78 » by zaymon » Wed Oct 7, 2020 3:55 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
KillMonger wrote:crowder 2.0? wouldn't be too upset at that

There seems to be a lot of similarities to their scouting profiles.


Crowder had very strange career, he looked like a stud on some teams, and complete trash in others.


It mostly depends on his shot. Okeke 3 point shooting seems much better and it should open up his game more. Okeke is also longer and better rim protector which is getting more and more important from wing/forward positions.
It would be great if we could start two good shooters at 3 and 4.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#79 » by Kent » Wed Oct 7, 2020 6:38 pm

dc wrote:
Kent wrote:I think about this all the time.

The Magic organization was once considered "cool" and "the place to be" in the late 90s and very early 2000s.

We got Chuck Daly and Julius Erving too during that time period.

There was a vibe that they no longer give off anymore.


I believe Shaq's primary residence (which was just put up for sale last month) was always in Windermere and he always spoke highly about Orlando has an NBA desintation long after he left the Magic.

Then for a few years you had Lil' Penny and there was the Nike commercial of him hosting some big house party with people like Tiger Woods, Ken Griffey Jr and Tyra Banks among others in attendance. I'm not sure if Tiger Woods still lives in Windermere as well, but I recall him at least being a neighbor of Shaq or Penny. That added to the celebrity cachet.

I think the Magic lost that vibe when they traded Dwight and didn't get a big name back. I mean, hey, at least Steve Francis was still sort of a name you got back when you traded TMac. In the days when Orlando was a "destination", the Magic always either had Shaq or Penny or TMac or Dwight. When Dwight was traded and you didn't get a big name back, Orlando just lost its luster and it became just like any other rebuilding, small market team.

Orlando is still in Florida, so like Texas, it's a place NBA players will like. If you guys got another star with some cachet and then just some competent management you could easily get back to the old status.


I love your outsider perspective. I agree with everything you said.

You're right that Orlando has almost always had a big name under contract until Dwight left.

The only exception was the short time (2 years, thereabout) between trading Penny and signing T-Mac and Grant.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#80 » by KillMonger » Wed Oct 7, 2020 10:48 pm

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:There seems to be a lot of similarities to their scouting profiles.


Crowder had very strange career, he looked like a stud on some teams, and complete trash in others.


It mostly depends on his shot. Okeke 3 point shooting seems much better and it should open up his game more. Okeke is also longer and better rim protector which is getting more and more important from wing/forward positions.
It would be great if we could start two good shooters at 3 and 4.

also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.
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