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Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model?

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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#81 » by zaymon » Thu Oct 8, 2020 5:22 am

KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Crowder had very strange career, he looked like a stud on some teams, and complete trash in others.


It mostly depends on his shot. Okeke 3 point shooting seems much better and it should open up his game more. Okeke is also longer and better rim protector which is getting more and more important from wing/forward positions.
It would be great if we could start two good shooters at 3 and 4.

also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.

Why are you nervous ? I think Clifford mostly put his players in position to succed. Some think he misused Fultz but i disagree. Markelle needs to learn how to play off the ball or he wont be a complete player.
Gordon had some post ups drawn for him last year, if Okeke takes his role he could be a lot better at it.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#82 » by pepe1991 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 6:04 am

KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Crowder had very strange career, he looked like a stud on some teams, and complete trash in others.


It mostly depends on his shot. Okeke 3 point shooting seems much better and it should open up his game more. Okeke is also longer and better rim protector which is getting more and more important from wing/forward positions.
It would be great if we could start two good shooters at 3 and 4.

also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.


Nobody standing at 6'7 in nba will be used as post player becausae obvious reaosns. 6'7 is average size of nba player. So he is not nightmare to anybody from matchups perspective.

Not to mention tehniqual side of modern baskedtball, where post play in general is obsolete. Vast majority ( like, over 80% of them) players who are attemping post ups, have PPP lower than 1,00. That's horrendus return value from possession.
And ones that have positive results form it at respectful volumen are almost all:
a) centers
b) allstar level players


Okeke might have been most overhyped non lottery pick in history of this franchise. Guy didn't play basketball for 2 years, guy was 14 ppg second year college player who would probably go undrafted if he went one and done rout. Oh btw, there was ACL tear too. Like where da hell this crazy optimism comes from? Isaac was 12 ppg freshmen and it's clear that in his first 2 years in nba he had no offense whatsoever. What makes anybody think 14 ppg second year college player, after having ugly injury, required surgery and year of recovery will just come in guns blazing? :crazy:

Having 8-9 ppg, 35% for 3 rookie year would be nice. You are not getting allstar.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#83 » by zaymon » Thu Oct 8, 2020 9:48 am

pepe1991 wrote:
KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:
It mostly depends on his shot. Okeke 3 point shooting seems much better and it should open up his game more. Okeke is also longer and better rim protector which is getting more and more important from wing/forward positions.
It would be great if we could start two good shooters at 3 and 4.

also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.


Nobody standing at 6'7 in nba will be used as post player becausae obvious reaosns. 6'7 is average size of nba player. So he is not nightmare to anybody from matchups perspective.

Not to mention tehniqual side of modern baskedtball, where post play in general is obsolete. Vast majority ( like, over 80% of them) players who are attemping post ups, have PPP lower than 1,00. That's horrendus return value from possession.
And ones that have positive results form it at respectful volumen are almost all:
a) centers
b) allstar level players


Okeke might have been most overhyped non lottery pick in history of this franchise. Guy didn't play basketball for 2 years, guy was 14 ppg second year college player who would probably go undrafted if he went one and done rout. Oh btw, there was ACL tear too. Like where da hell this crazy optimism comes from? Isaac was 12 ppg freshmen and it's clear that in his first 2 years in nba he had no offense whatsoever. What makes anybody think 14 ppg second year college player, after having ugly injury, required surgery and year of recovery will just come in guns blazing? :crazy:

Having 8-9 ppg, 35% for 3 rookie year would be nice. You are not getting allstar.

I dont thing anyone expects all star, but some rookies had bigger impact than others, especially when they were good shooters.
I expect similar impact to Cameron Johnson, Gary Trent in his second year, Herro during regular season on offense but with better defense.
Okeke is 22, and had over a year of nba training. I think his shooting translates, team defense translates, touch around the rim also.
He can post up smaller guards on switches like AG. 2 possesions per game. I think he can do better than 0.94 ppp.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#84 » by KillMonger » Thu Oct 8, 2020 6:55 pm

zaymon wrote:
KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:
It mostly depends on his shot. Okeke 3 point shooting seems much better and it should open up his game more. Okeke is also longer and better rim protector which is getting more and more important from wing/forward positions.
It would be great if we could start two good shooters at 3 and 4.

also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.

Why are you nervous ? I think Clifford mostly put his players in position to succed. Some think he misused Fultz but i disagree. Markelle needs to learn how to play off the ball or he wont be a complete player.
Gordon had some post ups drawn for him last year, if Okeke takes his role he could be a lot better at it.
I'm nervous because I always felt that with Clifford instead of playing to a player's strengths he tries to fit them into a role. Sometimes the role might be too limiting and we never really see the full range of a certain player.

Fultz could tend to be unleashed a bit more but I can see why he has to defer for the system. I've been wanting AG to be more of a distributor for a while and been wanting more pick and roll where he is the ball handler.

Year 3 Isaac was still more or less being utilized the same way as year 1 Isaac because that's his role, but imo he was capable of more than he was allowed to show. You could argue that maybe he didn't show it in practice but I can argue it the other way point is we don't really know.

Now the stats may not bear out what I'm saying so I'm acknowledging that now before pepe comes in with some kind of rebuttal typically capeing for Clifford. This is just how I see it through my eye test, mileage may vary.

It's the same kind of reason why we don't see too many lob opportunities for AG even though that may fit his strengths but may not work for his role in the offense that is geared towards making the least mistakes. How that relates to chuma? I just hope he's utilized to his full capacity. That may not make sense to some but that's how I see it and I'm locked in, no changing my mind at this point.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#85 » by tiderulz » Thu Oct 8, 2020 7:21 pm

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
KillMonger wrote:also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.


Nobody standing at 6'7 in nba will be used as post player becausae obvious reaosns. 6'7 is average size of nba player. So he is not nightmare to anybody from matchups perspective.

Not to mention tehniqual side of modern baskedtball, where post play in general is obsolete. Vast majority ( like, over 80% of them) players who are attemping post ups, have PPP lower than 1,00. That's horrendus return value from possession.
And ones that have positive results form it at respectful volumen are almost all:
a) centers
b) allstar level players


Okeke might have been most overhyped non lottery pick in history of this franchise. Guy didn't play basketball for 2 years, guy was 14 ppg second year college player who would probably go undrafted if he went one and done rout. Oh btw, there was ACL tear too. Like where da hell this crazy optimism comes from? Isaac was 12 ppg freshmen and it's clear that in his first 2 years in nba he had no offense whatsoever. What makes anybody think 14 ppg second year college player, after having ugly injury, required surgery and year of recovery will just come in guns blazing? :crazy:

Having 8-9 ppg, 35% for 3 rookie year would be nice. You are not getting allstar.

I dont thing anyone expects all star, but some rookies had bigger impact than others, especially when they were good shooters.
I expect similar impact to Cameron Johnson, Gary Trent in his second year, Herro during regular season on offense but with better defense.
Okeke is 22, and had over a year of nba training. I think his shooting translates, team defense translates, touch around the rim also.
He can post up smaller guards on switches like AG. 2 possesions per game. I think he can do better than 0.94 ppp.

ehh, he has had a year of working with NBA caliber trainers. that is much different than a year of nba training, working with a team, etc.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#86 » by zaymon » Thu Oct 8, 2020 7:41 pm

KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:
KillMonger wrote:also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.

Why are you nervous ? I think Clifford mostly put his players in position to succed. Some think he misused Fultz but i disagree. Markelle needs to learn how to play off the ball or he wont be a complete player.
Gordon had some post ups drawn for him last year, if Okeke takes his role he could be a lot better at it.
I'm nervous because I always felt that with Clifford instead of playing to a player's strengths he tries to fit them into a role. Sometimes the role might be too limiting and we never really see the full range of a certain player.

Fultz could tend to be unleashed a bit more but I can see why he has to defer for the system. I've been wanting AG to be more of a distributor for a while and been wanting more pick and roll where he is the ball handler.

Year 3 Isaac was still more or less being utilized the same way as year 1 Isaac because that's his role, but imo he was capable of more than he was allowed to show. You could argue that maybe he didn't show it in practice but I can argue it the other way point is we don't really know.

Now the stats may not bear out what I'm saying so I'm acknowledging that now before pepe comes in with some kind of rebuttal typically capeing for Clifford. This is just how I see it through my eye test, mileage may vary.

It's the same kind of reason why we don't see too many lob opportunities for AG even though that may fit his strengths but may not work for his role in the offense that is geared towards making the least mistakes. How that relates to chuma? I just hope he's utilized to his full capacity. That may not make sense to some but that's how I see it and I'm locked in, no changing my mind at this point.


I feel the opposite. Even Clifford himself said he doesnt like to coach decisions. He likes to put players into good spots and encourages them to make their own decisions. It makes smart players better and dumb players worse. For me it makes sense. Vucevic is having his best years under Clifford and i think he is still growing, while Gordon is struggling. Tell me are Gordon's struggles Clifford related or AG related ? I dont think Clifford wants AG to shoot those midrange shots, but he also doesnt want to lose AG ear. He wants players to figure some things on their own. Look at our team who is playing their best bastketball under Clifford.

Fultz basically revived his carrier. Fournier had his best regular season. Isaac improved his defense to dpoy level under Clifford. Vucevic made all star team under Clifford. Dj had his best season under Clifford. MCW revived his carrier under Clifford. Only player who regressed is AG and even he had a nice stretch at the end when he finally bought in. I know it is related to him moving to pf, but some of the problems are roster construction related not Clifford related. When he got Ennis he immediately changed the lineup.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#87 » by KillMonger » Thu Oct 8, 2020 7:58 pm

zaymon wrote:
KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:Why are you nervous ? I think Clifford mostly put his players in position to succed. Some think he misused Fultz but i disagree. Markelle needs to learn how to play off the ball or he wont be a complete player.
Gordon had some post ups drawn for him last year, if Okeke takes his role he could be a lot better at it.
I'm nervous because I always felt that with Clifford instead of playing to a player's strengths he tries to fit them into a role. Sometimes the role might be too limiting and we never really see the full range of a certain player.

Fultz could tend to be unleashed a bit more but I can see why he has to defer for the system. I've been wanting AG to be more of a distributor for a while and been wanting more pick and roll where he is the ball handler.

Year 3 Isaac was still more or less being utilized the same way as year 1 Isaac because that's his role, but imo he was capable of more than he was allowed to show. You could argue that maybe he didn't show it in practice but I can argue it the other way point is we don't really know.

Now the stats may not bear out what I'm saying so I'm acknowledging that now before pepe comes in with some kind of rebuttal typically capeing for Clifford. This is just how I see it through my eye test, mileage may vary.

It's the same kind of reason why we don't see too many lob opportunities for AG even though that may fit his strengths but may not work for his role in the offense that is geared towards making the least mistakes. How that relates to chuma? I just hope he's utilized to his full capacity. That may not make sense to some but that's how I see it and I'm locked in, no changing my mind at this point.


I feel the opposite. Even Clifford himself said he doesnt like to coach decisions. He likes to put players into good spots and encourages them to make their own decisions. It makes smart players better and dumb players worse. For me it makes sense. Vucevic is having his best years under Clifford and i think he is still growing, while Gordon is struggling. Tell me are Gordon's struggles Clifford related or AG related ? I dont think Clifford wants AG to shoot those midrange shots, but he also doesnt want to lose AG ear. He wants players to figure some things on their own. Look at our team who is playing their best bastketball under Clifford.

Fultz basically revived his carrier. Fournier had his best regular season. Isaac improved his defense to dpoy level under Clifford. Vucevic made all star team under Clifford. Dj had his best season under Clifford. MCW revived his carrier under Clifford. Only player who regressed is AG and even he had a nice stretch at the end when he finally bought in. I know it is related to him moving to pf, but some of the problems are roster construction related not Clifford related. When he got Ennis he immediately changed the lineup.

Agree to disagree, to say that clifford has no culpability in some of the problems that plagues us is beyond me. It seems to be all positive with clifford at the helm to some people. Won't matter either way as i don't see him being re-signed after his contract is up anyway.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#88 » by Ducklett » Thu Oct 8, 2020 10:34 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:
It mostly depends on his shot. Okeke 3 point shooting seems much better and it should open up his game more. Okeke is also longer and better rim protector which is getting more and more important from wing/forward positions.
It would be great if we could start two good shooters at 3 and 4.

also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.


Nobody standing at 6'7 in nba will be used as post player becausae obvious reaosns. 6'7 is average size of nba player. So he is not nightmare to anybody from matchups perspective.

Not to mention tehniqual side of modern baskedtball, where post play in general is obsolete. Vast majority ( like, over 80% of them) players who are attemping post ups, have PPP lower than 1,00. That's horrendus return value from possession.
And ones that have positive results form it at respectful volumen are almost all:
a) centers
b) allstar level players


Okeke might have been most overhyped non lottery pick in history of this franchise. Guy didn't play basketball for 2 years, guy was 14 ppg second year college player who would probably go undrafted if he went one and done rout. Oh btw, there was ACL tear too. Like where da hell this crazy optimism comes from? Isaac was 12 ppg freshmen and it's clear that in his first 2 years in nba he had no offense whatsoever. What makes anybody think 14 ppg second year college player, after having ugly injury, required surgery and year of recovery will just come in guns blazing? :crazy:

Having 8-9 ppg, 35% for 3 rookie year would be nice. You are not getting allstar.


I agree. All of you guys who liked this should be a team blow it up. We can't win with our players, clearly.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#89 » by MagicMatic » Fri Oct 9, 2020 8:53 am

Ducklett wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
KillMonger wrote:also he has a post game, he could be a matchup nightmare if a coach uses him correctly which i'm nervous about with clifford.


Nobody standing at 6'7 in nba will be used as post player becausae obvious reaosns. 6'7 is average size of nba player. So he is not nightmare to anybody from matchups perspective.

Not to mention tehniqual side of modern baskedtball, where post play in general is obsolete. Vast majority ( like, over 80% of them) players who are attemping post ups, have PPP lower than 1,00. That's horrendus return value from possession.
And ones that have positive results form it at respectful volumen are almost all:
a) centers
b) allstar level players


Okeke might have been most overhyped non lottery pick in history of this franchise. Guy didn't play basketball for 2 years, guy was 14 ppg second year college player who would probably go undrafted if he went one and done rout. Oh btw, there was ACL tear too. Like where da hell this crazy optimism comes from? Isaac was 12 ppg freshmen and it's clear that in his first 2 years in nba he had no offense whatsoever. What makes anybody think 14 ppg second year college player, after having ugly injury, required surgery and year of recovery will just come in guns blazing? :crazy:

Having 8-9 ppg, 35% for 3 rookie year would be nice. You are not getting allstar.


I agree. All of you guys who liked this should be a team blow it up. We can't win with our players, clearly.


Exactly. I think Isaac and Okeke have their strengths as role players, but the offense has to change. Orlando simply can’t put away games with their offense. It’s awful.
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Re: Should Magic learn from the Heat and let it be our model? 

Post#90 » by dsg2021 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:41 am

GameTime_3 wrote:
dsg2021 wrote:I think MIA trusts in scouts more than other teams. They take those scouts and make a scouting-assisted statistics gamebox and database, only further strengthening their pure analytics.

Then they have a major draw to tougher, more disciplined and conditioned players. They have a legit MIA culture of players that Butler himself personifies. But as others mentioned, they are hugely aided by their market draw, and their history. They also have a massive tendency to get ready-now, lower-ceiling players. It’s going to look good for that reason. We also have a good culture effect in ORL with players who buy into a defensive mindset. When you’re constantly floating Top 5-10 in team defense, that’s culture.


I would agree with this take. One thing Miami doees is allow the scouts to bring everything to the table. 3 simple examples that dont need alot of detail.

Wade: He wasn't Riley's first choice but the scouts pushed Riley to take him over Kaman and Hinrich. The scouts loved his fire and first step.

Bam: Most saw a big who can rebound and dunk. Scouts saw a strong man who passes well, very athletic and put him above some other players on board. Wasn't Riley first choice.

Duncan Robinson: He wasn't on anyone radar, they went to scout someone else, the saw the shooting form, they saw his balance and brought him in to create anoter Jason Kaponoo, Damon Jones type of sniper.

The scouts look beyond the usual and look for skills they can work on instead of falling in love with how high someone jumps or how long they are. The knock on Herro was short arms, not very athletic and didnt stand out much at Kentucky.


Really well said, 110% agree on everything. This was all stuff I learned about MIA when I was hardcore following the NBA, the NBA LP pulled up on multiple games, pseudo-scouting in NCAA and NBA, and advanced analytics a few years ago. I also have family in Miami who are hardcore MIA fans, major season ticket holders, so I get a little info that way too.

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