Bensational wrote: TheGlyde wrote:
#3 you said "they didn't get there through the draft", but now you're saying tanking. Let's stick to the original thought:
Miami - drafted Bam + Herro, they traded Richardson and Winslow, former players they'd drafted, to help them get Butler and Igoudala. Miami doesn't have their current team without the draft.
Clippers - drafted SGA who allowed them to trade for PG, which secured the signing of Kawhi. Without the draft they can't build that team.
Lakers - drafted D'Lo, Ingram, Ball, Kuzma, Hart, etc. Traded D'Lo to clear space to attract Bron. Traded the rest of their drafted players for Davis. Again, they don't have that team without the draft.
Boston - Tatum, Brown, Smart are all draft picks who are playing lead roles for them.
Nuggets - Jokic, Murray, MPJr, Harris, Morris, etc all drafted.
The draft is essential to building a good team. Maximising value from any draft spot to have high value talent on cost effective contracts are the critical pieces to making leaps forward.
You know I love you Ben but I think some of this is a bit of a stretch (ie a bit too literal)...
I mean, every team gets 2 draft picks every year, almost every transaction is going to have some link to the draft at some point... So you could probably join the dots to say that every team in history was 'built through the draft' the way that you did it...
I mean... In 2005 Miami drafted Wayne Simien. In 2007 they traded him and a 1st rounder to the T-Wolves for a package containing Mark Blount. They flipped Blount for Q-Rich's big expiring contract, which gave Miami enough cap space to trade 6 picks for Lebron and Bosh.
Is this building through the draft?
I don't think anything I said was much of a twist. Maximising your picks at any position is key, and that's how the good teams do it. Just because we haven't doesn't make the route less feasible. What's "building through the draft" mean then?
Are we now saying it's only reserved for teams that exclusively draft and retain a core contending team like GSW or OKC? I take it to mean using the draft as the means to acquire your best value pieces, whether they're kept or moved for a better fitting piece.
I think we have actually struck upon something here which explains not only this whole back and forth, but much of the recent back and forth on this Magic board.
It is all because of two vastly differing opinions on what "Building through the draft" actually means.
It's taken me off guard somewhat, because I never considered things the way you, MagicMatic and some others look at "building through the draft" as logical.
To me (I don't want to speak for pepe, zaymon, others etc) I base it on the transaction through which a player was acquired
Not the transaction prior (or transaction(s) prior?) I'm not sure how far the rabbit hole is allowed to go... All the way back to the draft I guess?
There's 3 basic transactions right?
- If you drafted your core, you built through the draft
- If you traded for your core players, you built through trades
- If you signed core players in free agency, you built through free agency
If you don't
see things that way, I can see why you could basically say that every
team built through the draft, but I think this is a very flawed way of looking at things, as the reverse can just as easily be argued (where did you get those picks Boston, hmmm?) and thats exactly why we end up in these back and forth, circular arguments.
It's all over the definition/semantics of "building through the draft"
If you look at things the way you spelled out, where do you draw the line? I mean is there a certain degree of separation? Is there a time limit? If a drafted asset is on your team for 10 years and then you trade them, is this building through the draft? or trade?
Were we built through the draft because we drafted Dwight and then traded him for Vuc?
Or more pointedly,
Were the 2019 NBA Champions Toronto built through the draft because they drafted DeMar Derozan and traded him for Kawhi?
Were the 2008 NBA Champions Boston built through the draft because they drafted Jeff Green, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, Al Jefferson and Gerald Green and traded them for Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett?
These are probably two of the most well known trades in NBA history that led directly to titles... Or was it all just building through the draft?
Again, wouldn't this make every
team built through the draft through this logic, in some way, if you stretch it far enough?
And can't you use the same logic to stretch it the other way?
Lets look at the Paul George trade. You said it was a 'build through draft' move because the Clippers used SGA in the trade (who they drafted).
What is Gallinari? Chopped liver? He scored 19.8ppg for the Clippers last season... and 18.7 for OKC this season. Does OKC trade George just for SGA and picks? I don't think so... So how is this transaction 'building through the draft' when the Clippers only drafted one half of the assets? Can't you just as easily say this was a build through trades because;
1. They traded to get Gallo and
2. They traded to get........... Paul George
Here's a tough one;
How were the 2006 NBA Champion Miami Heat built? They drafted Wade, but the Shaq trade is what put them over the top to win an actual title.
But they traded Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and Caron Butler to get Shaq.
- Drafted Butler
- Traded for Grant and
- Signed Odom in Free Agency...
So which logic are we using for this to determine how Miami built their team (draft? trade? or FA?)
Wouldn't it be simpler to just use... The actual transaction (ie the trade)?
The Celtics drafted Tatum, Brown and Smart. They built through the draft. Otherwise you could argue the reverse "Well no, they traded for those picks, they weren't their own
picks"... No. Stop. The Celtics built through the draft.
The Lakers built through Free Agency and Trades. They drafted D'Lo, Ingram, Ball, Kuzma and those players took the team exactly nowhere. Nowhere. They flipped them for assets and built through FA and Trade to get to the team they are now.
The Clippers, same. built through Free Agency (Kawhi) and Trades (George).