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Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($)

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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#201 » by tiderulz » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:55 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
1) Nothing stops Fultz from shooting now other than his condition so his issue is irrelevant who he plays with
2) Okeke is yet to show he is NBA player. This might be most overhyped post ACL tear, two years away from basketball, not even lottery pick in nba history by Orlando fans
3) nobody stopped him from being just that for 2 years straight other than his inability to be that
4) and once again, it's on him, not players around him to be nba ready

Hawks are also just few steps from 60 wins ... if..
a) Cam Reddish becomes new Kawhi
b) Trae Young grows up 3 inches and gets 30 pounds of muscles
c) De'andre Hunter is new Klay Thompson

it's not impossible it's just highly unlikely.

i think you are hating on the Hawks just a little. I know you dont like Young and thought he would be a bust. Collins is a legit scorer at PF and they have Capela to help shore up defense. Hunter projects as a solid 2-way wing. Reddish will be interesting to see how he develops, but he did play fairly decently especially as a rookie, in 2020 (12/4 in Jan, 13/3 in Feb, 17/4 in March). I dont believe Reddish has to become Kawhi like. And they will either add #6 or trade it for a player. and they have a lot of cap space.


You just defend them because you live there.
What's the positive take on 20-47 team , that last year was 29-53 team? They got even worst.
Funniest part about Atlanta is that both their offensive rating and defensive rating are actually worst than previous year. And ofc, win percentage got worst.

Only thing they had "going" witch means literally nothing in reality, is that they overstuffed roster with bunch of teens. And last time I check, nobody gives you youth-benefits for playing kids in professional league.

Cam Reddish and Hunter showed nothing. Their RPMs show they are some of the worst nba players among rotation players. Hunter isn't even that young. Guy turns 23 in 2 months.

And as far as their "core" of Collins and Young goes, sure they put up 29 and 21 ppg, but how many of those points are products of them playing garbage time , inflated by pace and playing no defense whatsoever? There was period of time when Kevin Love averaged 26 points and 15 rebounds a game (in separate years) where in reality he was at best 3rd best player on championship team where one guy had to be top 3 player of all time among players better than him to make it work.

One thing this playoffs this year showed and proved. Teams where 6'2 guys are best players never go anywhere, ragardless of talant. Lillard, Chris Paul, Westbrook combine for 0 nba finals. Even if you go in past and look at Nash, Kidd, Stockton , Iverson, result is always the same. They never won anything.
Steph is outliner who won ring in same year where Cavs lost Irving and Love and played bunch of nobodies and Lebron. Year later same Steph Curry- led team couldn't even finish 3-1 lead. And as history showed, without KD he would never play nor win nba finals of 2017 and 2018. And that's one of the best guards in nba history. Maybe best point guard since Magic ( who was 6'9 and not even your standard PG ).

Anyway. Hawks now have Capela, Collin, Young and bunch of other players, i still can't imagine them winning 35 games.

they lost Collins due to failed test for 25 games i think and they went 4-21. I believe they would have won some of those games had he been playing. Cam showed nothing? I showed he averaged about 14/4, 39% from 3 after Xmas. Hunter put up 12/4 in his rookie year. RPM depends a lot on the whole team, it is not an individual stat. You are just hating on that team.

Who says Young is the best player? maybe its Collins. If they took the same amount of shots, Collins would outscore Young. Isaiah Thomas of Bad Boy pistons? Allen Iverson took Philly to finals. Westbrook is 6'3. Lillard plays on a team that is just bad fitting. they spent on their money on the back court. And was CP3 the best player on the Clippers or was it Blake?

Tell you what, come next season, we can make a friendly wager on the Hawks winning more than 35 games.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#202 » by jayu70 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:36 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
You just defend them because you live there.
What's the positive take on 20-47 team , that last year was 29-53 team? They got even worst.
Funniest part about Atlanta is that both their offensive rating and defensive rating are actually worst than previous year. And ofc, win percentage got worst.

Only thing they had "going" witch means literally nothing in reality, is that they overstuffed roster with bunch of teens. And last time I check, nobody gives you youth-benefits for playing kids in professional league.

Cam Reddish and Hunter showed nothing. Their RPMs show they are some of the worst nba players among rotation players. Hunter isn't even that young. Guy turns 23 in 2 months.

And as far as their "core" of Collins and Young goes, sure they put up 29 and 21 ppg, but how many of those points are products of them playing garbage time , inflated by pace and playing no defense whatsoever? There was period of time when Kevin Love averaged 26 points and 15 rebounds a game (in separate years) where in reality he was at best 3rd best player on championship team where one guy had to be top 3 player of all time among players better than him to make it work.

One thing this playoffs this year showed and proved. Teams where 6'2 guys are best players never go anywhere, ragardless of talant. Lillard, Chris Paul, Westbrook combine for 0 nba finals. Even if you go in past and look at Nash, Kidd, Stockton , Iverson, result is always the same. They never won anything.
Steph is outliner who won ring in same year where Cavs lost Irving and Love and played bunch of nobodies and Lebron. Year later same Steph Curry- led team couldn't even finish 3-1 lead. And as history showed, without KD he would never play nor win nba finals of 2017 and 2018. And that's one of the best guards in nba history. Maybe best point guard since Magic ( who was 6'9 and not even your standard PG ).

Anyway. Hawks now have Capela, Collin, Young and bunch of other players, i still can't imagine them winning 35 games.


The difference is that their asset pool is much larger than Orlando. They can move multiple young players and picks in a package for a centerpiece because of how they drafted. Orlando can’t do that. Also, again we are talking about players that are 1-2 years into the league that have shown improvements along the way.

It’s not unfathomable that Atlanta hits on 1-2 of these guys and they strike big in the next season. They already have their young go-to guys in Collins/Young. That’s more than Orlando can say with a huge salary cap and boring team stuck in the middle.


They are doing nothing but tanking for last 3 years, ofc they have lot of assets. 2020 pick will be their 4th top 10 pick in last 4 years. Those assets do not contribute to winning, at least did not to this date. They went from 29% win rate to 35% to 29% again. No progress whatsoever other than empty calory stats from individual players who are viewed as "young stars" because of free reing they have. ( wink wink Deamrcus Cousins " superstar" 27 ppg seasons on Kings while never being anything better than average player on unrealistic usage rate and all sad attemps from Kings to build roster around stat padding machine he was ).


That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But dig a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#203 » by MagicMatic » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:44 am

jayu70 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
The difference is that their asset pool is much larger than Orlando. They can move multiple young players and picks in a package for a centerpiece because of how they drafted. Orlando can’t do that. Also, again we are talking about players that are 1-2 years into the league that have shown improvements along the way.

It’s not unfathomable that Atlanta hits on 1-2 of these guys and they strike big in the next season. They already have their young go-to guys in Collins/Young. That’s more than Orlando can say with a huge salary cap and boring team stuck in the middle.


They are doing nothing but tanking for last 3 years, ofc they have lot of assets. 2020 pick will be their 4th top 10 pick in last 4 years. Those assets do not contribute to winning, at least did not to this date. They went from 29% win rate to 35% to 29% again. No progress whatsoever other than empty calory stats from individual players who are viewed as "young stars" because of free reing they have. ( wink wink Deamrcus Cousins " superstar" 27 ppg seasons on Kings while never being anything better than average player on unrealistic usage rate and all sad attemps from Kings to build roster around stat padding machine he was ).


That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But did a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


Hawks will surpass Orlando’s “rebuild” by actually building an asset pool, and attempting to find skilled players, instead of settling on mediocrity. Congratulations on having a front office that makes decisions.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#204 » by jayu70 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:48 am

MagicMatic wrote:
jayu70 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
They are doing nothing but tanking for last 3 years, ofc they have lot of assets. 2020 pick will be their 4th top 10 pick in last 4 years. Those assets do not contribute to winning, at least did not to this date. They went from 29% win rate to 35% to 29% again. No progress whatsoever other than empty calory stats from individual players who are viewed as "young stars" because of free reing they have. ( wink wink Deamrcus Cousins " superstar" 27 ppg seasons on Kings while never being anything better than average player on unrealistic usage rate and all sad attemps from Kings to build roster around stat padding machine he was ).


That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But did a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


Hawks will surpass Orlando’s “rebuild” by actually building an asset pool and attempting to find skilled players instead of settling on mediocrity.

Hawks came off a 10 year playoff treadmill, the height of which was the 60 win season (best season of my life watching the Hawks that regular season) and a token showing in the ECFs. Then we petered it away by letting Horford and Milsap walk away for nothing instead of trading them for at least some value in return. So when we started our rebuild we had nothing to trade for anything of value (like Memphis did with Gasol and Conley) and started at rock bottom.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#205 » by tiderulz » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:53 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
You just defend them because you live there.
What's the positive take on 20-47 team , that last year was 29-53 team? They got even worst.
Funniest part about Atlanta is that both their offensive rating and defensive rating are actually worst than previous year. And ofc, win percentage got worst.

Only thing they had "going" witch means literally nothing in reality, is that they overstuffed roster with bunch of teens. And last time I check, nobody gives you youth-benefits for playing kids in professional league.

Cam Reddish and Hunter showed nothing. Their RPMs show they are some of the worst nba players among rotation players. Hunter isn't even that young. Guy turns 23 in 2 months.

And as far as their "core" of Collins and Young goes, sure they put up 29 and 21 ppg, but how many of those points are products of them playing garbage time , inflated by pace and playing no defense whatsoever? There was period of time when Kevin Love averaged 26 points and 15 rebounds a game (in separate years) where in reality he was at best 3rd best player on championship team where one guy had to be top 3 player of all time among players better than him to make it work.

One thing this playoffs this year showed and proved. Teams where 6'2 guys are best players never go anywhere, ragardless of talant. Lillard, Chris Paul, Westbrook combine for 0 nba finals. Even if you go in past and look at Nash, Kidd, Stockton , Iverson, result is always the same. They never won anything.
Steph is outliner who won ring in same year where Cavs lost Irving and Love and played bunch of nobodies and Lebron. Year later same Steph Curry- led team couldn't even finish 3-1 lead. And as history showed, without KD he would never play nor win nba finals of 2017 and 2018. And that's one of the best guards in nba history. Maybe best point guard since Magic ( who was 6'9 and not even your standard PG ).

Anyway. Hawks now have Capela, Collin, Young and bunch of other players, i still can't imagine them winning 35 games.


The difference is that their asset pool is much larger than Orlando. They can move multiple young players and picks in a package for a centerpiece because of how they drafted. Orlando can’t do that. Also, again we are talking about players that are 1-2 years into the league that have shown improvements along the way.

It’s not unfathomable that Atlanta hits on 1-2 of these guys and they strike big in the next season. They already have their young go-to guys in Collins/Young. That’s more than Orlando can say with a huge salary cap and boring team stuck in the middle.


They are doing nothing but tanking for last 3 years, ofc they have lot of assets. 2020 pick will be their 4th top 10 pick in last 4 years. Those assets do not contribute to winning, at least did not to this date. They went from 29% win rate to 35% to 29% again. No progress whatsoever other than empty calory stats from individual players who are viewed as "young stars" because of free reing they have. ( wink wink Deamrcus Cousins " superstar" 27 ppg seasons on Kings while never being anything better than average player on unrealistic usage rate and all sad attemps from Kings to build roster around stat padding machine he was ).

Also Atlanta isn't place players go, but place where players go away from. Their biggest FA players they ever signed are Joe Johnson and Dan Roundfield, who signed for them 42 years ago ... Thats objective fact.

They might turn their assets to something great, but they also might waste another year chasing ping pong balls and end up paying Collins based on empty stats full max worth $140M and that's where their honeymoon of " building" ends.
If i had to predict i belive by the 2022 be capped out on Trae and Collins who will be stuck in first round until front office is fired or one of them demands a trade. Only thing worst than inflated salary is inflated ego of overrated star. (once again, wink wink Demarcus Cousins thinking he is superstar , rejecting $20M a year deal , being "insulted " by it. Now he can't even play basketball, year later ).

Is this grim prediction? Yes. And that's why it's objective. Vast majority of rebuilds via draft ending up being salary cap disaster via overpaying to keep current, emotionally attached to GMs who drafted them players..
If you go to some random 2013 draft you will see that not a single team that tanked that year actually had sucessful rebuild.

OKC had Westbrook and Durant, and those two equaled a W-L record for OKC to draft 3rd and take Harden. Even Lebron didnt get the Cavs into the playoffs his first year.

Young and Collins only finished their 2nd year.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#206 » by jayu70 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:56 am

tiderulz wrote:
Young and Collins only finished their 2nd year.

Collins is 3rd year
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#207 » by tiderulz » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:01 am

jayu70 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Young and Collins only finished their 2nd year.

Collins is 3rd year

still young pups to say they suck and are not winning
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#208 » by MagicMatic » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:13 am

jayu70 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
jayu70 wrote:That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But did a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


Hawks will surpass Orlando’s “rebuild” by actually building an asset pool and attempting to find skilled players instead of settling on mediocrity.

Hawks came off a 10 year playoff treadmill, the height of which was the 60 win season (best season of my life watching the Hawks that regular season) and a token showing in the ECFs. Then we petered it away by letting Horford and Milsap walk away for nothing instead of trading them for at least some value in return. So when we started our rebuild we had nothing to trade for anything of value (like Memphis did with Gasol and Conley) and started at rock bottom.


You did it the right way considering you had all that talent walk out the door. If Schlenk can evaluate his talent pool accurately he will be able to make decent decisions building talent from within and via trade. You’ve got a lot of options, which is nice.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#209 » by pepe1991 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:24 am

jayu70 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
The difference is that their asset pool is much larger than Orlando. They can move multiple young players and picks in a package for a centerpiece because of how they drafted. Orlando can’t do that. Also, again we are talking about players that are 1-2 years into the league that have shown improvements along the way.

It’s not unfathomable that Atlanta hits on 1-2 of these guys and they strike big in the next season. They already have their young go-to guys in Collins/Young. That’s more than Orlando can say with a huge salary cap and boring team stuck in the middle.


They are doing nothing but tanking for last 3 years, ofc they have lot of assets. 2020 pick will be their 4th top 10 pick in last 4 years. Those assets do not contribute to winning, at least did not to this date. They went from 29% win rate to 35% to 29% again. No progress whatsoever other than empty calory stats from individual players who are viewed as "young stars" because of free reing they have. ( wink wink Deamrcus Cousins " superstar" 27 ppg seasons on Kings while never being anything better than average player on unrealistic usage rate and all sad attemps from Kings to build roster around stat padding machine he was ).


That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But dig a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


In your 5 opening games you beat us and Pistons :lol:
Than lost 3 in the row, beat Spurs, and once again lost 3 in a row. Beat Nuggets, than lost 10 in a row.
By the end of November you were already gearing up into full tank mode 4-16 record that included 49 points beatdown by Clippers and 47 points beatdown by Houston. You guys did not look like NBA team, more like NY G-league Knicks
Collins wasn't even injuried, he was suspended for testing positive on human growth hormon (PED).

You guys intentionally tanked once again, you were only nba team without backup PG. Even G league Knicks brought one.

Taking on guys like Crabbe, Parsons ( didn't play serious basketball for years ), 78 years old Vince Carter, it was so obvious what you were doing.

Pls stop with "our backup PG was Evan Turner" , guy spend, prior to Hawks, at age of 30, grand total of 3% of his playing time at PG.
You could just as easly brought Hakeem to play backup PG. Why not ? He probably logged as much PT there as Turner did.

At the end of a day, for years your whole franchise will be known as team that traded Cam Reddish and Trae Young for Luka Doncic. Luka, who could be best player on East, if he plays in this conference.

I don't wanna be roode and i might be wrong, but teams led by Collins and Young probably won't ever go anywhere far. One is unathletic low value Lillard, other is Juluis Randle on steroids.

Trae isn't just bad defender, among 233 gurads listed on ESPN?s RPM list, he is 233rd. Not just that, he is by far the worst, being light years below 232rd.

Hawks were very bad team last year. And year prior. And year prior. Somebody brought Westbrook and Durant as comparison. Who in right mind can compare Durant to Trae and Collins? like what an actual f*** ? Durant is one of most talented and the best players ever. By the season 3 he carried sophmore Westbrook ( at times 16 ppg ) , rookie Harden and Ibaka ( 9,9 ppg and 6ppg )to 50 wins on West. And not just that, they played eventual Champions Lakers in first round. Lost 4-2. 2 of Lakers wins were within 1 shot. That's how greatness looks. ( much like what Luka did this year).
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#210 » by MagicMatic » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:25 am

pepe1991 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
They are doing nothing but tanking for last 3 years, ofc they have lot of assets. 2020 pick will be their 4th top 10 pick in last 4 years. Those assets do not contribute to winning, at least did not to this date. They went from 29% win rate to 35% to 29% again. No progress whatsoever other than empty calory stats from individual players who are viewed as "young stars" because of free reing they have. ( wink wink Deamrcus Cousins " superstar" 27 ppg seasons on Kings while never being anything better than average player on unrealistic usage rate and all sad attemps from Kings to build roster around stat padding machine he was ).


That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But dig a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


In your 5 opening games you beat us and Pistons :lol:
Than lost 3 in the row, beat Spurs, and once again lost 3 in a row. Beat Nuggets, than lost 10 in a row.
By the end of November you were already gearing up into full tank mode 4-16 record that included 49 points beatdown by Clippers and 47 points beatdown by Houston. You guys did not look like NBA team, more like NY G-league Knicks
Collins wasn't even injuried, he was suspended for testing positive on human growth hormon (PED).

You guys intentionally tanked once again, you were only nba team without backup PG. Even G league Knicks brought one.

Taking on guys like Crabbe, Parsons ( didn't play serious basketball for years ), 78 years old Vince Carter, it was so obvious what you were doing.

Pls stop with "our backup PG was Evan Turner" , guy spend, prior to Hawks, at age of 30, grand total of 3% of his playing time at PG.
You could just as easly brought Hakeem to play backup PG. Why not ? He probably logged as much PT there as Turner did.

At the end of a day, for years your whole franchise will be known as team that traded Cam Reddish and Trae Young for Luka Doncic. Luka, who could be best player on East, if he plays in this conference.

I don't wanna be roode and i might be wrong, but teams led by Collins and Young probably won't ever go anywhere far. One is unathletic low value Lillard, other is Juluis Randle on steroids.

Trae isn't just bad defender, among 233 gurads listed on ESPN?s RPM list, he is 233rd. Not just that, he is by far the worst, being light years below 232rd.

Hawks were very bad team last year. And year prior. And year prior. Somebody brought Westbrook and Durant as comparison. Who in right mind can compare Durant to Trae and Collins? like what an actual f*** ? Durant is one of most talented and the best players ever. By the season 3 he carried sophmore Westbrook ( at times 16 ppg ) , rookie Harden and Ibaka ( 9,9 ppg and 6ppg )to 50 wins on West. And not just that, they played eventual Champions Lakers in first round. Lost 4-2. 2 of Lakers wins were within 1 shot. That's how greatness looks. ( much like what Luka did this year).


You’re missing the point.

Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now. Unlike Orlando they aren’t “playoffs or bust” despite not having the right window. That’s why they’ve signed and taken on these players that haven’t helped directly aside from being locker room vets. They are growing an asset pool of talent to find exactly who their core is going to be moving forward.

That takes risks. Decisions will be made that won’t always pan out.

Contrast that with Orlando and you can see how exactly they are going to progress before taking more steps back. Orlando isn’t even committed to that yet. You can throw out every stat and ranking to paint an extremely young team in a negative light. However, the fact will remain that Orlando is in a rough spot with the roster and Atlanta has way more options available to them.

You are going to claim they “intentionally tanked” and then chastise their moves to do so ? Seems like you are justifying their tactics. You would probably also trade Fultz for Trae Young and maybe Isaac for Collins depending on where you stand with them individually. Would you make the claim that Orlando has better assets and future? I wouldn’t.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#211 » by pepe1991 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:10 am

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But dig a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


In your 5 opening games you beat us and Pistons :lol:
Than lost 3 in the row, beat Spurs, and once again lost 3 in a row. Beat Nuggets, than lost 10 in a row.
By the end of November you were already gearing up into full tank mode 4-16 record that included 49 points beatdown by Clippers and 47 points beatdown by Houston. You guys did not look like NBA team, more like NY G-league Knicks
Collins wasn't even injuried, he was suspended for testing positive on human growth hormon (PED).

You guys intentionally tanked once again, you were only nba team without backup PG. Even G league Knicks brought one.

Taking on guys like Crabbe, Parsons ( didn't play serious basketball for years ), 78 years old Vince Carter, it was so obvious what you were doing.

Pls stop with "our backup PG was Evan Turner" , guy spend, prior to Hawks, at age of 30, grand total of 3% of his playing time at PG.
You could just as easly brought Hakeem to play backup PG. Why not ? He probably logged as much PT there as Turner did.

At the end of a day, for years your whole franchise will be known as team that traded Cam Reddish and Trae Young for Luka Doncic. Luka, who could be best player on East, if he plays in this conference.

I don't wanna be roode and i might be wrong, but teams led by Collins and Young probably won't ever go anywhere far. One is unathletic low value Lillard, other is Juluis Randle on steroids.

Trae isn't just bad defender, among 233 gurads listed on ESPN?s RPM list, he is 233rd. Not just that, he is by far the worst, being light years below 232rd.

Hawks were very bad team last year. And year prior. And year prior. Somebody brought Westbrook and Durant as comparison. Who in right mind can compare Durant to Trae and Collins? like what an actual f*** ? Durant is one of most talented and the best players ever. By the season 3 he carried sophmore Westbrook ( at times 16 ppg ) , rookie Harden and Ibaka ( 9,9 ppg and 6ppg )to 50 wins on West. And not just that, they played eventual Champions Lakers in first round. Lost 4-2. 2 of Lakers wins were within 1 shot. That's how greatness looks. ( much like what Luka did this year).


You’re missing the point.

Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now. Unlike Orlando they aren’t “playoffs or bust” despite not having the right window. That’s why they’ve signed and taken on these players that haven’t helped directly aside from being locker room vets. They are growing an asset pool of talent to find exactly who their core is going to be moving forward.

That takes risks. Decisions will be made that won’t always pan out.

Contrast that with Orlando and you can see how exactly they are going to progress before taking more steps back. Orlando isn’t even committed to that yet. You can throw out every stat and ranking to paint an extremely young team in a negative light. However, the fact will remain that Orlando is in a rough spot with the roster and Atlanta has way more options available to them.

You are going to claim they “intentionally tanked” and then chastise their moves to do so ? Seems like you are justifying their tactics. You would probably also trade Fultz for Trae Young and maybe Isaac for Collins depending on where you stand with them individually. Would you make the claim that Orlando has better assets and future? I wouldn’t.


Because Magic and Hawks are in different stages of building team. Hawks still have luxury of not paying anybody big money other than Capela. But grace period of salary heaven is ending within 2 years as Colling ( next year RFA) and Huerter and Young year after.
That's always whole thing with young players and young teams, in blink of a eye "young cheap and upcomming with lot of assets" roster turns into expensive and overcrowded roster.

This summer, with no good players to find, they are below cap floor with 8 players on guaranteed contracts ( 8+1 )

There is in depth explanation why Hawks having $50M of cap space is hurting them next year

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/3/17/21179371/atlanta-hawks-2020-salary-cap-primer-details-john-collins-extension-projections-free-agency

There is objective reason to belive Hawks will burn some $20M a year for year or two on somebody like Paul MIllsap or Serge Ibaka or even Gallinari because they, with current roster, can't reach cap floor
And nobody can predict 2021-22 ( nor 2020-21 salary cap) . So how much money they actually have is still uknown... Also it's hard to belive that in 2021 with Clippers, Lakers and many other major markets having cap space, Hawks will be able to lure anybody ( Davis, Kawhi, George, Giannis...)

Hawks best bet for great player is package their assets and apsorbe huge contract of unhappy star. (Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid ). Or offer partially guaranteed two years contracts . But it's dry FA so it's just taking lot of mediocre players for sake of scaling salary.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#212 » by jayu70 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:35 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
They are doing nothing but tanking for last 3 years, ofc they have lot of assets. 2020 pick will be their 4th top 10 pick in last 4 years. Those assets do not contribute to winning, at least did not to this date. They went from 29% win rate to 35% to 29% again. No progress whatsoever other than empty calory stats from individual players who are viewed as "young stars" because of free reing they have. ( wink wink Deamrcus Cousins " superstar" 27 ppg seasons on Kings while never being anything better than average player on unrealistic usage rate and all sad attemps from Kings to build roster around stat padding machine he was ).


That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But dig a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


In your 5 opening games you beat us and Pistons :lol:
Than lost 3 in the row, beat Spurs, and once again lost 3 in a row. Beat Nuggets, than lost 10 in a row.
By the end of November you were already gearing up into full tank mode 4-16 record that included 49 points beatdown by Clippers and 47 points beatdown by Houston. You guys did not look like NBA team, more like NY G-league Knicks
Collins wasn't even injuried, he was suspended for testing positive on human growth hormon (PED).

You guys intentionally tanked once again, you were only nba team without backup PG. Even G league Knicks brought one.

Taking on guys like Crabbe, Parsons ( didn't play serious basketball for years ), 78 years old Vince Carter, it was so obvious what you were doing.

Pls stop with "our backup PG was Evan Turner" , guy spend, prior to Hawks, at age of 30, grand total of 3% of his playing time at PG.
You could just as easly brought Hakeem to play backup PG. Why not ? He probably logged as much PT there as Turner did.

At the end of a day, for years your whole franchise will be known as team that traded Cam Reddish and Trae Young for Luka Doncic. Luka, who could be best player on East, if he plays in this conference.

I don't wanna be roode and i might be wrong, but teams led by Collins and Young probably won't ever go anywhere far. One is unathletic low value Lillard, other is Juluis Randle on steroids.

Trae isn't just bad defender, among 233 gurads listed on ESPN?s RPM list, he is 233rd. Not just that, he is by far the worst, being light years below 232rd.

Hawks were very bad team last year. And year prior. And year prior. Somebody brought Westbrook and Durant as comparison. Who in right mind can compare Durant to Trae and Collins? like what an actual f*** ? Durant is one of most talented and the best players ever. By the season 3 he carried sophmore Westbrook ( at times 16 ppg ) , rookie Harden and Ibaka ( 9,9 ppg and 6ppg )to 50 wins on West. And not just that, they played eventual Champions Lakers in first round. Lost 4-2. 2 of Lakers wins were within 1 shot. That's how greatness looks. ( much like what Luka did this year).

You can't see the forest for the trees.

Your initial implication was the teams winning percentage was due to Trae and Collins, although putting up numbers, aren't winning. I tried telling you why that wasn't the entire story.....but keep rambling. After 5 games, they did not play together for 25 games, and the Hawks played 2 rookies because of injures. By the time Collins returned, the 25 games missed was too hard to recover from, but they went 14-22 after his return.
The front office indicated they projected 30-35 wins, Collins absence threw that out of wack immediately.
Did the GM build a team to try to make the playoffs this season? No...that's why he was still trading for guys like Crabbe and picks. We are still rebuilding the team, that's why we were able to get Capela using the #17 pick from the Crabbe trade. So you casting the blame on Trae/Collins is disingenuous.

Trae and Collins may never lead us to a championship, but it's too soon to put the blame for the losses on their shoulder when the GM did a piss poor job of actually building a team around them. This is the plan this offseason, to build an actual NBA bench. I agree in time they may/will trade some of the 'assests' they've accumulated, but it is too soon and we sure as hell won't make a 'Dipo and #11 for Ibaka' type trade.

I always find it funny when guys who said Trae would be a total bust can't admit they were waaaaaay wrong bring so they bring up the trade :lol:

Let me ask you though....what was the Magic trying to do during years 2012-2017 when they were racking up 20, 23, 25, 35, 29 and 25 Wins and picking in the high lottery??
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#213 » by j-ragg » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:05 pm

Even if you don’t like Atlanta’s assets. They could use them in a trade for a franchise player easily, while signing another franchise player. Not saying those opportunities come around often but they put themselves in a position to do it (if their guys don’t pan out individually).

As opposed to Orlando’s plan of getting a franchise guy to come sign here for the MLE.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#214 » by pepe1991 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:30 pm

jayu70 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:That is not true, this is Atlanta's 3rd year in the lottery.
2017 - John Collins #19
2018 - Trae Young #5, Kevin Huerter #19 (this was the 1st tank year)
2019 - Deandre Hunter #4, Cam Reddish #10, Bruno Fernando
2020 - Pick #6

If you only looking at the final win/loss record without understanding the circumstances, you may have a point. But dig a little deeper.
1. First 5 games Hawks went 2-3
2. Collins suspended for 25 games, the Hawks go 4-21. In that span, at SG: Huerter was on a minutes restriction, Allen Crabbe was injured so the Hawk was forced to start Cam Reddish who had offseason surgery, missed SL, training camp and preseason and got thrown into the fire. Jabari Parker started in place of Collins, Evan Turner (I hated that trade so much) was the backup PG and he too was in and out of the line up with a sore achilles. Alex Len was penciled in as the starter, he was so bad he got benched for Damian Jones. Add Ole man Vince and perpetually injured Chandler Parsons - there isn't much there. We didn't have a roster capable of competing night in, night out.
3. Collins returned December 23rd: Hawks go 14-22 to end the season, also adding a real C and PG in Dedmon and Teague helped, which was also when Reddish settled into his role off the bench as Huerter was now healthy. The start of the season was really rough with the players available.


In your 5 opening games you beat us and Pistons :lol:
Than lost 3 in the row, beat Spurs, and once again lost 3 in a row. Beat Nuggets, than lost 10 in a row.
By the end of November you were already gearing up into full tank mode 4-16 record that included 49 points beatdown by Clippers and 47 points beatdown by Houston. You guys did not look like NBA team, more like NY G-league Knicks
Collins wasn't even injuried, he was suspended for testing positive on human growth hormon (PED).

You guys intentionally tanked once again, you were only nba team without backup PG. Even G league Knicks brought one.

Taking on guys like Crabbe, Parsons ( didn't play serious basketball for years ), 78 years old Vince Carter, it was so obvious what you were doing.

Pls stop with "our backup PG was Evan Turner" , guy spend, prior to Hawks, at age of 30, grand total of 3% of his playing time at PG.
You could just as easly brought Hakeem to play backup PG. Why not ? He probably logged as much PT there as Turner did.

At the end of a day, for years your whole franchise will be known as team that traded Cam Reddish and Trae Young for Luka Doncic. Luka, who could be best player on East, if he plays in this conference.

I don't wanna be roode and i might be wrong, but teams led by Collins and Young probably won't ever go anywhere far. One is unathletic low value Lillard, other is Juluis Randle on steroids.

Trae isn't just bad defender, among 233 gurads listed on ESPN?s RPM list, he is 233rd. Not just that, he is by far the worst, being light years below 232rd.

Hawks were very bad team last year. And year prior. And year prior. Somebody brought Westbrook and Durant as comparison. Who in right mind can compare Durant to Trae and Collins? like what an actual f*** ? Durant is one of most talented and the best players ever. By the season 3 he carried sophmore Westbrook ( at times 16 ppg ) , rookie Harden and Ibaka ( 9,9 ppg and 6ppg )to 50 wins on West. And not just that, they played eventual Champions Lakers in first round. Lost 4-2. 2 of Lakers wins were within 1 shot. That's how greatness looks. ( much like what Luka did this year).

You can't see the forest for the trees.

Your initial implication was the teams winning percentage was due to Trae and Collins, although putting up numbers, aren't winning. I tried telling you why that wasn't the entire story.....but keep rambling. After 5 games, they did not play together for 25 games, and the Hawks played 2 rookies because of injures. By the time Collins returned, the 25 games missed was too hard to recover from, but they went 14-22 after his return.
The front office indicated they projected 30-35 wins, Collins absence threw that out of wack immediately.
Did the GM build a team to try to make the playoffs this season? No...that's why he was still trading for guys like Crabbe and picks. We are still rebuilding the team, that's why we were able to get Capela using the #17 pick from the Crabbe trade. So you casting the blame on Trae/Collins is disingenuous.

Trae and Collins may never lead us to a championship, but it's too soon to put the blame for the losses on their shoulder when the GM did a piss poor job of actually building a team around them. This is the plan this offseason, to build an actual NBA bench. I agree in time they may/will trade some of the 'assests' they've accumulated, but it is too soon and we sure as hell won't make a 'Dipo and #11 for Ibaka' type trade.

I always find it funny when guys who said Trae would be a total bust can't admit they were waaaaaay wrong bring so they bring up the trade :lol:

Let me ask you though....what was the Magic trying to do during years 2012-2017 when they were racking up 20, 23, 25, 35, 29 and 25 Wins and picking in the high lottery??


... lot of rumbling that comes down to: traded Luka Doncic for Trae Young and Cam Reddish ( collosal L, probably one that will hunt you for next decade ) and it's on front page that you are talking about exstending John Collins.

You keep bringing 25 games that Collins and Young were separated but refuse to acknowledge why. Because one of them was juicing in offseason on steroids.

I don't blame Collins and Young for lack of sucess i point out that sucess never will be built on their backs because they are not that guys. You don't make competitive championship roster with PF alergic to defense and PG who can't stay in fron of fish in middle of desert.
At very best Trae Young in NBA is James Harden in body of Tony Parker. And while both Harden and Trae put up a show during regular season, where teams tend to be sleepwalking on defense for majority of the time, i highly doubt in Trae's case ( and proven to be facutal in Harden's case ) that style of basketball will ever tanslate into playoff sucess. As hoisting 30 footers off dribble with 18 sec on the clock, taking some of most moronic shots possible and fishing for fouls ,while being abused on defense will ever translate into sustainable winning basketball.

Time will tell. But with trackrecord of last 60 years it's not hard to see why certain style of basketball never brings championships.

What were Magic doing from 2012 to 2017? Tanking for star . Never got one as they were unlucky or simply too dumb ( but in most cases simply unlucky) to get one. Magic highest pick was 2013 draft pick, 2# overall. Oladipo.
After that they never sniffed into top 3 pick.

You guys had transending superstar on your hands that you traded for Young and additional pick. :crazy:
(and i really hope Young vs Doncic thing is as dead as it gets , it's worst than Lebron vs Melo debate from early 2000s)
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#215 » by pepe1991 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:45 pm

j-ragg wrote:Even if you don’t like Atlanta’s assets. They could use them in a trade for a franchise player easily, while signing another franchise player. Not saying those opportunities come around often but they put themselves in a position to do it (if their guys don’t pan out individually).

As opposed to Orlando’s plan of getting a franchise guy to come sign here for the MLE.


Ehh.. They could and they will are two different things.
First of all they could trade for superstar... If that superstar has any intentions to play there.
They could trade for superstar ... If there is any aveliable.

If you look at 76ers and T wovles and their disaster, Hawks are heading into that direction, Embiid and Simmons/ Towns and Wiggisn ( Trae and Collins) getting max contracts and teams being forced to flip young players into players who actually can play basketball. And it's obvious from a mile that all 6 players mentioned do NOT have superstar / top 5 players potential. So you max out on wrong guys, kill your cap space and you are forced to wiggle salary with 50% of capacity left after giving max money to them.

That's always biggest issue with rebuild . You get star, he inflates his stats on bad team, you think you have some ubertalent...he lays eggs in 99% of cases. For every sucessful rebuild around Durant you have army of Kevin Love's and Demarcus Cousin's of the world who were close to 30ppg players on garbage teams just to figure out years later... They were never really THAT good.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#216 » by tiderulz » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:02 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
In your 5 opening games you beat us and Pistons :lol:
Than lost 3 in the row, beat Spurs, and once again lost 3 in a row. Beat Nuggets, than lost 10 in a row.
By the end of November you were already gearing up into full tank mode 4-16 record that included 49 points beatdown by Clippers and 47 points beatdown by Houston. You guys did not look like NBA team, more like NY G-league Knicks
Collins wasn't even injuried, he was suspended for testing positive on human growth hormon (PED).

You guys intentionally tanked once again, you were only nba team without backup PG. Even G league Knicks brought one.

Taking on guys like Crabbe, Parsons ( didn't play serious basketball for years ), 78 years old Vince Carter, it was so obvious what you were doing.

Pls stop with "our backup PG was Evan Turner" , guy spend, prior to Hawks, at age of 30, grand total of 3% of his playing time at PG.
You could just as easly brought Hakeem to play backup PG. Why not ? He probably logged as much PT there as Turner did.

At the end of a day, for years your whole franchise will be known as team that traded Cam Reddish and Trae Young for Luka Doncic. Luka, who could be best player on East, if he plays in this conference.

I don't wanna be roode and i might be wrong, but teams led by Collins and Young probably won't ever go anywhere far. One is unathletic low value Lillard, other is Juluis Randle on steroids.

Trae isn't just bad defender, among 233 gurads listed on ESPN?s RPM list, he is 233rd. Not just that, he is by far the worst, being light years below 232rd.

Hawks were very bad team last year. And year prior. And year prior. Somebody brought Westbrook and Durant as comparison. Who in right mind can compare Durant to Trae and Collins? like what an actual f*** ? Durant is one of most talented and the best players ever. By the season 3 he carried sophmore Westbrook ( at times 16 ppg ) , rookie Harden and Ibaka ( 9,9 ppg and 6ppg )to 50 wins on West. And not just that, they played eventual Champions Lakers in first round. Lost 4-2. 2 of Lakers wins were within 1 shot. That's how greatness looks. ( much like what Luka did this year).


You’re missing the point.

Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now. Unlike Orlando they aren’t “playoffs or bust” despite not having the right window. That’s why they’ve signed and taken on these players that haven’t helped directly aside from being locker room vets. They are growing an asset pool of talent to find exactly who their core is going to be moving forward.

That takes risks. Decisions will be made that won’t always pan out.

Contrast that with Orlando and you can see how exactly they are going to progress before taking more steps back. Orlando isn’t even committed to that yet. You can throw out every stat and ranking to paint an extremely young team in a negative light. However, the fact will remain that Orlando is in a rough spot with the roster and Atlanta has way more options available to them.

You are going to claim they “intentionally tanked” and then chastise their moves to do so ? Seems like you are justifying their tactics. You would probably also trade Fultz for Trae Young and maybe Isaac for Collins depending on where you stand with them individually. Would you make the claim that Orlando has better assets and future? I wouldn’t.


Because Magic and Hawks are in different stages of building team. Hawks still have luxury of not paying anybody big money other than Capela. But grace period of salary heaven is ending within 2 years as Colling ( next year RFA) and Huerter and Young year after.
That's always whole thing with young players and young teams, in blink of a eye "young cheap and upcomming with lot of assets" roster turns into expensive and overcrowded roster.

This summer, with no good players to find, they are below cap floor with 8 players on guaranteed contracts ( 8+1 )

There is in depth explanation why Hawks having $50M of cap space is hurting them next year

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/3/17/21179371/atlanta-hawks-2020-salary-cap-primer-details-john-collins-extension-projections-free-agency

There is objective reason to belive Hawks will burn some $20M a year for year or two on somebody like Paul MIllsap or Serge Ibaka or even Gallinari because they, with current roster, can't reach cap floor
And nobody can predict 2021-22 ( nor 2020-21 salary cap) . So how much money they actually have is still uknown... Also it's hard to belive that in 2021 with Clippers, Lakers and many other major markets having cap space, Hawks will be able to lure anybody ( Davis, Kawhi, George, Giannis...)

Hawks best bet for great player is package their assets and apsorbe huge contract of unhappy star. (Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid ). Or offer partially guaranteed two years contracts . But it's dry FA so it's just taking lot of mediocre players for sake of scaling salary.

you dont have to burn money to reach cap floor. it is not a requirement. you just have to pay out the difference to the players on the roster. so they dont need to sign someone to a bad contract. You really have a burr in your bonnet about the Hawks and still hate Young sooo much
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#217 » by tiderulz » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:10 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
In your 5 opening games you beat us and Pistons :lol:
Than lost 3 in the row, beat Spurs, and once again lost 3 in a row. Beat Nuggets, than lost 10 in a row.
By the end of November you were already gearing up into full tank mode 4-16 record that included 49 points beatdown by Clippers and 47 points beatdown by Houston. You guys did not look like NBA team, more like NY G-league Knicks
Collins wasn't even injuried, he was suspended for testing positive on human growth hormon (PED).

You guys intentionally tanked once again, you were only nba team without backup PG. Even G league Knicks brought one.

Taking on guys like Crabbe, Parsons ( didn't play serious basketball for years ), 78 years old Vince Carter, it was so obvious what you were doing.

Pls stop with "our backup PG was Evan Turner" , guy spend, prior to Hawks, at age of 30, grand total of 3% of his playing time at PG.
You could just as easly brought Hakeem to play backup PG. Why not ? He probably logged as much PT there as Turner did.

At the end of a day, for years your whole franchise will be known as team that traded Cam Reddish and Trae Young for Luka Doncic. Luka, who could be best player on East, if he plays in this conference.

I don't wanna be roode and i might be wrong, but teams led by Collins and Young probably won't ever go anywhere far. One is unathletic low value Lillard, other is Juluis Randle on steroids.

Trae isn't just bad defender, among 233 gurads listed on ESPN?s RPM list, he is 233rd. Not just that, he is by far the worst, being light years below 232rd.

Hawks were very bad team last year. And year prior. And year prior. Somebody brought Westbrook and Durant as comparison. Who in right mind can compare Durant to Trae and Collins? like what an actual f*** ? Durant is one of most talented and the best players ever. By the season 3 he carried sophmore Westbrook ( at times 16 ppg ) , rookie Harden and Ibaka ( 9,9 ppg and 6ppg )to 50 wins on West. And not just that, they played eventual Champions Lakers in first round. Lost 4-2. 2 of Lakers wins were within 1 shot. That's how greatness looks. ( much like what Luka did this year).

You can't see the forest for the trees.

Your initial implication was the teams winning percentage was due to Trae and Collins, although putting up numbers, aren't winning. I tried telling you why that wasn't the entire story.....but keep rambling. After 5 games, they did not play together for 25 games, and the Hawks played 2 rookies because of injures. By the time Collins returned, the 25 games missed was too hard to recover from, but they went 14-22 after his return.
The front office indicated they projected 30-35 wins, Collins absence threw that out of wack immediately.
Did the GM build a team to try to make the playoffs this season? No...that's why he was still trading for guys like Crabbe and picks. We are still rebuilding the team, that's why we were able to get Capela using the #17 pick from the Crabbe trade. So you casting the blame on Trae/Collins is disingenuous.

Trae and Collins may never lead us to a championship, but it's too soon to put the blame for the losses on their shoulder when the GM did a piss poor job of actually building a team around them. This is the plan this offseason, to build an actual NBA bench. I agree in time they may/will trade some of the 'assests' they've accumulated, but it is too soon and we sure as hell won't make a 'Dipo and #11 for Ibaka' type trade.

I always find it funny when guys who said Trae would be a total bust can't admit they were waaaaaay wrong bring so they bring up the trade :lol:

Let me ask you though....what was the Magic trying to do during years 2012-2017 when they were racking up 20, 23, 25, 35, 29 and 25 Wins and picking in the high lottery??


... lot of rumbling that comes down to: traded Luka Doncic for Trae Young and Cam Reddish ( collosal L, probably one that will hunt you for next decade ) and it's on front page that you are talking about exstending John Collins.

You keep bringing 25 games that Collins and Young were separated but refuse to acknowledge why. Because one of them was juicing in offseason on steroids.

I don't blame Collins and Young for lack of sucess i point out that sucess never will be built on their backs because they are not that guys. You don't make competitive championship roster with PF alergic to defense and PG who can't stay in fron of fish in middle of desert.
At very best Trae Young in NBA is James Harden in body of Tony Parker. And while both Harden and Trae put up a show during regular season, where teams tend to be sleepwalking on defense for majority of the time, i highly doubt in Trae's case ( and proven to be facutal in Harden's case ) that style of basketball will ever tanslate into playoff sucess. As hoisting 30 footers off dribble with 18 sec on the clock, taking some of most moronic shots possible and fishing for fouls ,while being abused on defense will ever translate into sustainable winning basketball.

Time will tell. But with trackrecord of last 60 years it's not hard to see why certain style of basketball never brings championships.

What were Magic doing from 2012 to 2017? Tanking for star . Never got one as they were unlucky or simply too dumb ( but in most cases simply unlucky) to get one. Magic highest pick was 2013 draft pick, 2# overall. Oladipo.
After that they never sniffed into top 3 pick.

You guys had transending superstar on your hands that you traded for Young and additional pick. :crazy:
(and i really hope Young vs Doncic thing is as dead as it gets , it's worst than Lebron vs Melo debate from early 2000s)

2 years into their career, you could say that Butler and Kawhi wouldnt be "that guy" to lead a team far. Kawhi was a defensive role player with limited offense, Butler wasnt even a full time starter. KD and Russ didnt win much their first couple of years. Steph Curry wasnt an MVP his first few years (good but not MVP and couldnt stay healthy). Draymond Green was almost out of the league until Jackson was fired and Kerr took over his development.

so im not going to say Collins and Young cant ever be the guys when they both just turned 22.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#218 » by pepe1991 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:57 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:You can't see the forest for the trees.

Your initial implication was the teams winning percentage was due to Trae and Collins, although putting up numbers, aren't winning. I tried telling you why that wasn't the entire story.....but keep rambling. After 5 games, they did not play together for 25 games, and the Hawks played 2 rookies because of injures. By the time Collins returned, the 25 games missed was too hard to recover from, but they went 14-22 after his return.
The front office indicated they projected 30-35 wins, Collins absence threw that out of wack immediately.
Did the GM build a team to try to make the playoffs this season? No...that's why he was still trading for guys like Crabbe and picks. We are still rebuilding the team, that's why we were able to get Capela using the #17 pick from the Crabbe trade. So you casting the blame on Trae/Collins is disingenuous.

Trae and Collins may never lead us to a championship, but it's too soon to put the blame for the losses on their shoulder when the GM did a piss poor job of actually building a team around them. This is the plan this offseason, to build an actual NBA bench. I agree in time they may/will trade some of the 'assests' they've accumulated, but it is too soon and we sure as hell won't make a 'Dipo and #11 for Ibaka' type trade.

I always find it funny when guys who said Trae would be a total bust can't admit they were waaaaaay wrong bring so they bring up the trade :lol:

Let me ask you though....what was the Magic trying to do during years 2012-2017 when they were racking up 20, 23, 25, 35, 29 and 25 Wins and picking in the high lottery??


... lot of rumbling that comes down to: traded Luka Doncic for Trae Young and Cam Reddish ( collosal L, probably one that will hunt you for next decade ) and it's on front page that you are talking about exstending John Collins.

You keep bringing 25 games that Collins and Young were separated but refuse to acknowledge why. Because one of them was juicing in offseason on steroids.

I don't blame Collins and Young for lack of sucess i point out that sucess never will be built on their backs because they are not that guys. You don't make competitive championship roster with PF alergic to defense and PG who can't stay in fron of fish in middle of desert.
At very best Trae Young in NBA is James Harden in body of Tony Parker. And while both Harden and Trae put up a show during regular season, where teams tend to be sleepwalking on defense for majority of the time, i highly doubt in Trae's case ( and proven to be facutal in Harden's case ) that style of basketball will ever tanslate into playoff sucess. As hoisting 30 footers off dribble with 18 sec on the clock, taking some of most moronic shots possible and fishing for fouls ,while being abused on defense will ever translate into sustainable winning basketball.

Time will tell. But with trackrecord of last 60 years it's not hard to see why certain style of basketball never brings championships.

What were Magic doing from 2012 to 2017? Tanking for star . Never got one as they were unlucky or simply too dumb ( but in most cases simply unlucky) to get one. Magic highest pick was 2013 draft pick, 2# overall. Oladipo.
After that they never sniffed into top 3 pick.

You guys had transending superstar on your hands that you traded for Young and additional pick. :crazy:
(and i really hope Young vs Doncic thing is as dead as it gets , it's worst than Lebron vs Melo debate from early 2000s)

2 years into their career, you could say that Butler and Kawhi wouldnt be "that guy" to lead a team far. Kawhi was a defensive role player with limited offense, Butler wasnt even a full time starter. KD and Russ didnt win much their first couple of years. Steph Curry wasnt an MVP his first few years (good but not MVP and couldnt stay healthy). Draymond Green was almost out of the league until Jackson was fired and Kerr took over his development.

so im not going to say Collins and Young cant ever be the guys when they both just turned 22.


Butler still isn't "that guy" . This is first playoff sucess of his career, at age of 31.
Kawhi won finals MVP in year 3. ( Collins just finished year 3).

Leonard was part of team that had structure and didn't need him to do more. This is key component of sucess most fans don't understand. There is difference between :
a) team needing player to put 30 poitns to win games ( Lebron Cavs in 2007 finals, 2001 Iverson led team to finals)
b) or player putting up stats that actually don't translate into any sort of team sucess, it's just him putting empty numbers (Demarcus Cousins)
c) team having sucess while best player does lot of the work, but still plays within structure of his own team strategy ( Kawhi Leonard - Raptors , Spurs).

Player's stats are ugly inflated nowdays. If you judge player based on nothing but numbers you would think Westbrook better player than Durant or Kawhi, and in reality Westbrook really can't be your second best player as his BBIQ in late game situations is disaster that nobody can overcome. But he averaged twice in a row triple double for a season. By numbers he might be most decorated star since Wilt and Oscar.... in reality he isn't even top 10 player in nba. Probably never was.

Also it's clear what works in nba. Strong, athletic, capale of halding the ball - wings. Nothing else. Center led team didn't won championship since when? Dallas- Dirk being closest to it ? Last point guard who won finals mvp was Tony Parker over a decade ago. In mean time . Kawhi, Durant, Lebron, Igoudala, Pierce, Kobe. All 6'7 or taller, all versitale wings. ( that's why Butler isn't THAT guy, but is much better suited to be that, than most point guards are).
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#219 » by MagicMatic » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:07 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
You’re missing the point.

Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now. Unlike Orlando they aren’t “playoffs or bust” despite not having the right window. That’s why they’ve signed and taken on these players that haven’t helped directly aside from being locker room vets. They are growing an asset pool of talent to find exactly who their core is going to be moving forward.

That takes risks. Decisions will be made that won’t always pan out.

Contrast that with Orlando and you can see how exactly they are going to progress before taking more steps back. Orlando isn’t even committed to that yet. You can throw out every stat and ranking to paint an extremely young team in a negative light. However, the fact will remain that Orlando is in a rough spot with the roster and Atlanta has way more options available to them.

You are going to claim they “intentionally tanked” and then chastise their moves to do so ? Seems like you are justifying their tactics. You would probably also trade Fultz for Trae Young and maybe Isaac for Collins depending on where you stand with them individually. Would you make the claim that Orlando has better assets and future? I wouldn’t.


Because Magic and Hawks are in different stages of building team. Hawks still have luxury of not paying anybody big money other than Capela. But grace period of salary heaven is ending within 2 years as Colling ( next year RFA) and Huerter and Young year after.
That's always whole thing with young players and young teams, in blink of a eye "young cheap and upcomming with lot of assets" roster turns into expensive and overcrowded roster.

This summer, with no good players to find, they are below cap floor with 8 players on guaranteed contracts ( 8+1 )

There is in depth explanation why Hawks having $50M of cap space is hurting them next year

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/3/17/21179371/atlanta-hawks-2020-salary-cap-primer-details-john-collins-extension-projections-free-agency

There is objective reason to belive Hawks will burn some $20M a year for year or two on somebody like Paul MIllsap or Serge Ibaka or even Gallinari because they, with current roster, can't reach cap floor
And nobody can predict 2021-22 ( nor 2020-21 salary cap) . So how much money they actually have is still uknown... Also it's hard to belive that in 2021 with Clippers, Lakers and many other major markets having cap space, Hawks will be able to lure anybody ( Davis, Kawhi, George, Giannis...)

Hawks best bet for great player is package their assets and apsorbe huge contract of unhappy star. (Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid ). Or offer partially guaranteed two years contracts . But it's dry FA so it's just taking lot of mediocre players for sake of scaling salary.

you dont have to burn money to reach cap floor. it is not a requirement. you just have to pay out the difference to the players on the roster. so they dont need to sign someone to a bad contract. You really have a burr in your bonnet about the Hawks and still hate Young sooo much


Yeah, not understanding why this conversation went entirely off into Atlanta territory. Do I personally love Trae Young as a player to build around? Not really. That’s not really the point though. They found their volume scorer and can build an identity around him. That’s more than we can say.

I know pepe and I have gone around in circles before about Dallas, Atlanta, Memphis, and New Orleans. I don’t care how poor their records were and the mistakes they made along the way. I care how they came to into their own as their franchises underwent their respective rebuilds. They’ve now lapped Orlando.

Everyone would trade those rosters and situations with Orlando and it’s not even close. We’ve managed to shrink our asset pool, overpay slightly above average players, refuse to take any steps back to increase ceiling, and draft outside of the lottery all while being a absolute non contender in the East.

How anyone can be in our position and criticize those franchises for successfully redeeming their situations is beyond me.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#220 » by drsd » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:48 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now.


This for me is a core problem. The Hawks has players that are being taught how to lose. That is not a good thing.

It was Orlando's problem with Harris and Oladipo.

..

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