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Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($)

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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#221 » by MagicMatic » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:10 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now.


This for me is a core problem. The Hawks has players that are being taught how to lose. That is not a good thing.

It was Orlando's problem with Harris and Oladipo.

..


I disagree. They aren’t “taught” anything. They are competing every night with the team that management has built them. It’s the coaches job to teach them how to be as effective as possible within their limitations. Not every team is going to have the perfect balance every season.

Just because they aren’t competing for the playoffs every season doesn’t mean they aren’t getting valuable time playing in games. Orlando’s problem with Oladipo/Harris was a chemistry problem, and eventual “must win now” conditions. If anything, it reinforces my point that they were not patient with the roster and expected immediate results despite not knowing what they had.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#222 » by tiderulz » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:12 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now.


This for me is a core problem. The Hawks has players that are being taught how to lose. That is not a good thing.

It was Orlando's problem with Harris and Oladipo.

..

are they being "taught" to lose? or are they just playing young guys that will lose because they are young and dont have a fully architected team? at least now they have a decent defensive center now with Capela and defensive wing with Hunter.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#223 » by Bensational » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:21 pm

Wait... As a team that has emerged out of the lottery and into playoff contention with largely the same core from our rebuilding years, how can any Magic fan look at Atlanta and believe that's beyond them? Vuc, Gordon, Fournier, DJ, Ross - they all learned how to win eventually, despite several seasons as bottom feeders. Vuc was 27 before he experienced his first winning season since his rookie year.

And trying to criticise Atlanta for having cap space is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. "Check out this stupid team with their cap flexibility! Idiots!". WTAF?!
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#224 » by pepe1991 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:37 am

Bensational wrote:Wait... As a team that has emerged out of the lottery and into playoff contention with largely the same core from our rebuilding years, how can any Magic fan look at Atlanta and believe that's beyond them? Vuc, Gordon, Fournier, DJ, Ross - they all learned how to win eventually, despite several seasons as bottom feeders. Vuc was 27 before he experienced his first winning season since his rookie year.

And trying to criticise Atlanta for having cap space is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. "Check out this stupid team with their cap flexibility! Idiots!". WTAF?!


There are few things there pulled from context from my post:

1) Magic are clearly superior to Hawks right now as they win almost twice as many games. What time brings? Well i'm not Nostradamus.

2) Where you have luxury of knowing how Magic roster shaped to be after failed rebuild, Atlanta has benefit of a doubt,despite already being in year 4 of rebuild, with zero progress in most important column made ( win -loss record).

3) salary cap issue is actually legit issue and direct result of poor planning in advance when to have money.

Having $50 000 000 of free cap space in year Derick Favors is best FA ( or fullshing money on Derozan ) you could get isn't smart salary menagment by any streach of imagination. By the time 2021 FA comes around, Hawks with extension of Collins, 2020 and 2021 pick will already be on trajectory of $90-100M without adding anybody this year, with pending RFA Trae Young. So their roster of the future is already being shaped by salary they are commiting today. ( Much like Magic future was destroyed after comminting salary to Biyombo, Ibaka, Harris and moving Oladipo).

Once again, having "young exiting" roster is all fun and games until they get "they are too young " excuses playing on $6M a year for few years. But 4 years pass by fast, and most rebuilding teams are left with flawed, and not so young,yet overpayed lottery selected players.

If you look just last year who signed max exstension from rookie contracts, it's:
• Ben Simmons, Sixers (5 years, $170 million)
• Jamal Murray, Nuggets (5 years, $170 million)
• Pascal Siakam, Raptors (4 years, $130 million)

Towns 5 years $190M, Booker 5 years $158M, Ingram ( not sure he signed, but has $166M,5 years exstension option).
And most notorious among them, Wiggins 5 years, $150M of dead cap.

It's crazy money for mostly unproven players with most of them having no team sucess whatsoever. ( Siakam won championship behind Kawhi, this year showed he really isn't that guy, Murray is enjoying sucess now, but mostly behind Jokić). Towns, Wigigins, Booker and Ingram combined for 1 playoff win ( and 5 games total) in their careers, despite being in nba for 4,5 and 6 years.

I was one of people who was famming over "sucess" of 76ers, and lot of people agreed. Look what happend to their "sucess" with 2 stupid decisions. And how they got there? Simple. By flushing salary cap to Embiid and Simmons (perenial allstars), and missmenagment of rest of the assets. Being in position they have no cap space to sign anybody but to overpay players sto stay ( and that God-awful Horford FA decision).
Note * Embiid and Simmons are better basketball players than Trae and Collins*

Once again, having 20-47 record, trajectory of 24 wins season ( not because injuries, but players being suspended for steroids, and taking on injuried players on purpose ), is couple of light years away from having 41-41 or anything close to that record -season. Pretending they have bright future because of inflated stats, cap space they have nobody to use on and lot of unnamed ,yet undrafted players with picks isn't smart. Long term they are betting that 6'1, 180 pounds guard will be healthy and not be black hole on defense and development of players that show virtually nothing in year 1. While within 3 years literally everybody are eligiable for exstensions. Good luck with menaging assets that will devalue each other in battle for personal pockets.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#225 » by Kent » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:07 am

If I'm a GM and going the youth route, I don't just play a bunch of rooks — I would still have a veteran or two as my leaders.

You know what's funny...

Those first few years with Dwight and Jameer, we had the perfect backdrop for them in Grant Hill and Francis. That's how a rebuild should be done IMO.

Philadelphia did it the hard way.

Chicago is doing it the hard way.

The Knicks are... well... doing it the Knicks way.

But yeah, those Dipo, Harris, Gordon teams didn't stand a chance to get good and properly develop the youth.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#226 » by cedric76 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:16 am

Kent wrote:If I'm a GM and going the youth route, I don't just play a bunch of rooks — I would still have a veteran or two as my leaders.

You know what's funny...

Those first few years with Dwight and Jameer, we had the perfect backdrop for them in Grant Hill and Francis. That's how a rebuild should be done IMO.

Philadelphia did it the hard way.

Chicago is doing it the hard way.

The Knicks are... well... doing it the Knicks way.

But yeah, those Dipo, Harris, Gordon teams didn't stand a chance to get good and properly develop the youth.


Rob s biggest mistake was to move jameer, he would have been a perfect mentor / exemple for our young guys.

I saw an interview of jameer saying that he was willing to take on that role but management didn't want him arising... So stupid

Jameer should have retired here and gave his Jersey removed
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#227 » by pepe1991 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:39 am

cedric76 wrote:
Kent wrote:If I'm a GM and going the youth route, I don't just play a bunch of rooks — I would still have a veteran or two as my leaders.

You know what's funny...

Those first few years with Dwight and Jameer, we had the perfect backdrop for them in Grant Hill and Francis. That's how a rebuild should be done IMO.

Philadelphia did it the hard way.

Chicago is doing it the hard way.

The Knicks are... well... doing it the Knicks way.

But yeah, those Dipo, Harris, Gordon teams didn't stand a chance to get good and properly develop the youth.


Rob s biggest mistake was to move jameer, he would have been a perfect mentor / exemple for our young guys.

I saw an interview of jameer saying that he was willing to take on that role but management didn't want him arising... So stupid

Jameer should have retired here and gave his Jersey removed


Rob's had sh** loud of mistakes that are even too hard to count:
1) Elfrid Payton and his existence, zero desire to challenge him for starting job, holding onto his "development" that never happend
2) giving up every single vet under a sun just to make roster worst for tanking
3) giving up on 76ers future pick
4) Biyombo, Jeff Green free agency
5) misunderstanding salary influx
6) overvaluing mainstream media narratives and trands " can't win without rim protection"- Rob doubling down on Biyombo and Ibaka )

There are others, this ones are just on top of my head . Actually giving up Sabonis in Oladipo trade was probably most criminal mistake, guy is better than Oladipo and Ibaka anyway.
Guy is 23 y.o. allstar and one of best passing bigs, who is also elite screen setter, elite rebounder and solid defender. Good Lord.. :crazy:

Rob was garbage. Only positive thing about him is that he wanted Porzingis, still couldn't get him.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#228 » by drsd » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:23 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Atlanta isn’t trying to be good now.


This for me is a core problem. The Hawks has players that are being taught how to lose. That is not a good thing.

It was Orlando's problem with Harris and Oladipo.

..


I disagree. They aren’t “taught” anything. They are competing every night with the team that management has built them. It’s the coaches job to teach them how to be as effective as possible within their limitations. Not every team is going to have the perfect balance every season.

Just because they aren’t competing for the playoffs every season doesn’t mean they aren’t getting valuable time playing in games. Orlando’s problem with Oladipo/Harris was a chemistry problem, and eventual “must win now” conditions. If anything, it reinforces my point that they were not patient with the roster and expected immediate results despite not knowing what they had.


tiderulz wrote:
are they being "taught" to lose? or are they just playing young guys that will lose because they are young and dont have a fully architected team? at least now they have a decent defensive center now with Capela and defensive wing with Hunter.



My point is the reverse. The Hawks is not in a position to teach their Young Guns "HOW TO WIN". A winning attitude is what made players like Mitchell, and most of the Boston roster. Winning is a developmental event in itself.

My hope for next year: Okeke develops beyond expectation because he is in a WINNING environment.


..
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#229 » by Ducklett » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:14 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
drsd wrote:
This for me is a core problem. The Hawks has players that are being taught how to lose. That is not a good thing.

It was Orlando's problem with Harris and Oladipo.

..


I disagree. They aren’t “taught” anything. They are competing every night with the team that management has built them. It’s the coaches job to teach them how to be as effective as possible within their limitations. Not every team is going to have the perfect balance every season.

Just because they aren’t competing for the playoffs every season doesn’t mean they aren’t getting valuable time playing in games. Orlando’s problem with Oladipo/Harris was a chemistry problem, and eventual “must win now” conditions. If anything, it reinforces my point that they were not patient with the roster and expected immediate results despite not knowing what they had.


tiderulz wrote:
are they being "taught" to lose? or are they just playing young guys that will lose because they are young and dont have a fully architected team? at least now they have a decent defensive center now with Capela and defensive wing with Hunter.



My point is the reverse. The Hawks is not in a position to teach their Young Guns "HOW TO WIN". A winning attitude is what made players like Mitchell, and most of the Boston roster. Winning is a developmental event in itself.

My hope for next year: Okeke develops beyond expectation because he is in a WINNING environment.


..


The Jazz and the Celtics didn't freeze their youth out like a certain balding frenchman sending our young sub30% 3 point shooting PG to go camp the corner next to our unicorn PF.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#230 » by pepe1991 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:44 pm

Ducklett wrote:
drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
I disagree. They aren’t “taught” anything. They are competing every night with the team that management has built them. It’s the coaches job to teach them how to be as effective as possible within their limitations. Not every team is going to have the perfect balance every season.

Just because they aren’t competing for the playoffs every season doesn’t mean they aren’t getting valuable time playing in games. Orlando’s problem with Oladipo/Harris was a chemistry problem, and eventual “must win now” conditions. If anything, it reinforces my point that they were not patient with the roster and expected immediate results despite not knowing what they had.


tiderulz wrote:



My point is the reverse. The Hawks is not in a position to teach their Young Guns "HOW TO WIN". A winning attitude is what made players like Mitchell, and most of the Boston roster. Winning is a developmental event in itself.

My hope for next year: Okeke develops beyond expectation because he is in a WINNING environment.


..


The Jazz and the Celtics didn't freeze their youth out like a certain balding frenchman sending our young sub30% 3 point shooting PG to go camp the corner next to our unicorn PF.


Maybe because Jazz lost Hayward, their best player, got Mitchell, who in summer league scored 37 points, got himself into -nba raedy shape, and in rookie year averaged 20 ppg ?

Or Tatum , who was one of the youngest nba players, yet killed summer league ( including game winner ) , entered NBA in incredible shape, being NBA ready, however, still had limited role, but shot freaking 43% for 3 in rookie year ( 14 ppg on 59% TS).

Indicators they were amazing were there from day one. In mean time, aside from Oladipo, Magic did not draft NBA ready rookie in lottery since Dwight.

Magic don't "freeze" their youth, their youth simply isn't that amazing, and that's fine. Most young players are not great. However, portion of fans keep blaming everybody but those players for all their shortcommings. Maybe just maybe at least part of the blame is on them? It's not like Fournier is contesting Fultz jumpers. Just like Bamba can't put himself into basketball shape. It's on him, nobody else.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#231 » by MagicMatic » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:24 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
drsd wrote:
This for me is a core problem. The Hawks has players that are being taught how to lose. That is not a good thing.

It was Orlando's problem with Harris and Oladipo.

..


I disagree. They aren’t “taught” anything. They are competing every night with the team that management has built them. It’s the coaches job to teach them how to be as effective as possible within their limitations. Not every team is going to have the perfect balance every season.

Just because they aren’t competing for the playoffs every season doesn’t mean they aren’t getting valuable time playing in games. Orlando’s problem with Oladipo/Harris was a chemistry problem, and eventual “must win now” conditions. If anything, it reinforces my point that they were not patient with the roster and expected immediate results despite not knowing what they had.


tiderulz wrote:
are they being "taught" to lose? or are they just playing young guys that will lose because they are young and dont have a fully architected team? at least now they have a decent defensive center now with Capela and defensive wing with Hunter.



My point is the reverse. The Hawks is not in a position to teach their Young Guns "HOW TO WIN". A winning attitude is what made players like Mitchell, and most of the Boston roster. Winning is a developmental event in itself.

My hope for next year: Okeke develops beyond expectation because he is in a WINNING environment.


..


You make it sound like these prospects haven’t been playing basketball their entire lives and that winning games changes their trajectory entirely as prospects. I couldn’t disagree more.

You know what actually matters? Situation. Playing time. Minute distribution. Coaching. Etc. Y’know, things that can be quantified...Not some arbitrary “he’s learning how to lose/win” bull. You aren’t giving the players enough agency to think they are weak minded enough to “learn and unlearn” playing basketball simply because of the outcome of games.

Donovan Mitchell and Tatum themselves willed their teams to success as young prospects. Not the other way around. This is why landing big in the draft is important and why picking 15th isn’t ideal when we lack these players.

Newsflash: not every team in the nba has a winning record. Are you going to tell me next that Ja Morant is in a bad situation because the Grizzlies went 34-39 and he’s “learning how to lose” and not in a “winning environment”? :lol: I think he’ll be ok regardless. I’d also take him over a majority of winning teams point guards fwiw. Your argument makes no sense.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#232 » by BadMofoPimp » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:58 am

MagicMatic wrote:

Donovan Mitchell and Tatum themselves willed their teams to success as young prospects. Not the other way around. This is why landing big in the draft is important and why picking 15th isn’t ideal when we lack these players.

Newsflash: not every team in the nba has a winning record. Are you going to tell me next that Ja Morant is in a bad situation because the Grizzlies went 34-39 and he’s “learning how to lose” and not in a “winning environment”? :lol: I think he’ll be ok regardless. I’d also take him over a majority of winning teams point guards fwiw. Your argument makes no sense.


Ya, Mitchell was drafted 13th, need to move up 2 or 3 spaces!
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#233 » by PrimeThyme » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:07 am

The actual "future" of this roster:
Spoiler:
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#234 » by MagicMatic » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:17 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:

Donovan Mitchell and Tatum themselves willed their teams to success as young prospects. Not the other way around. This is why landing big in the draft is important and why picking 15th isn’t ideal when we lack these players.

Newsflash: not every team in the nba has a winning record. Are you going to tell me next that Ja Morant is in a bad situation because the Grizzlies went 34-39 and he’s “learning how to lose” and not in a “winning environment”? :lol: I think he’ll be ok regardless. I’d also take him over a majority of winning teams point guards fwiw. Your argument makes no sense.


Ya, Mitchell was drafted 13th, need to move up 2 or 3 spaces!


That’s your takeaway from that response?

I’m not saying you can’t find players like that later in the draft. It’s less likely, but still possible.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#235 » by BadMofoPimp » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:56 am

MagicMatic wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:

Donovan Mitchell and Tatum themselves willed their teams to success as young prospects. Not the other way around. This is why landing big in the draft is important and why picking 15th isn’t ideal when we lack these players.

Newsflash: not every team in the nba has a winning record. Are you going to tell me next that Ja Morant is in a bad situation because the Grizzlies went 34-39 and he’s “learning how to lose” and not in a “winning environment”? :lol: I think he’ll be ok regardless. I’d also take him over a majority of winning teams point guards fwiw. Your argument makes no sense.


Ya, Mitchell was drafted 13th, need to move up 2 or 3 spaces!


That’s your takeaway from that response?

I’m not saying you can’t find players like that later in the draft. It’s less likely, but still possible.


Maybe, using Mitchell as an example of why drafting 15th is bad was not a good idea.

Damn, Tyler Herro now with 33 points in a ECF was only drafted at 13th as well.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#236 » by MagicMatic » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:33 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Ya, Mitchell was drafted 13th, need to move up 2 or 3 spaces!


That’s your takeaway from that response?

I’m not saying you can’t find players like that later in the draft. It’s less likely, but still possible.


Maybe, using Mitchell as an example of why drafting 15th is bad was not a good idea.

Damn, Tyler Herro now with 33 points in a ECF was only drafted at 13th as well.


And we drafted Mo Bamba at #6, so what’s your point? You have to land on your pick wherever you draft. You have more options the higher you pick. None of this has to do with what the post was originally about.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#237 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:29 am

MagicMatic wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
That’s your takeaway from that response?

I’m not saying you can’t find players like that later in the draft. It’s less likely, but still possible.


Maybe, using Mitchell as an example of why drafting 15th is bad was not a good idea.

Damn, Tyler Herro now with 33 points in a ECF was only drafted at 13th as well.


And we drafted Mo Bamba at #6, so what’s your point? You have to land on your pick wherever you draft. You have more options the higher you pick. None of this has to do with what the post was originally about.


Issue is "common sense" how players are getting drafted.
Teams and GMs draft in very particular order and most of them avoiding far reach from common sense /media established "draft order" to not be ridiculed.
This is why now, more than ever, great players fall form top 10 and more and more busts are inside top 10. Half of allstar is made by non- lottery picks.

That issue is connected, in my opinion toward notion that "upside" is most important prospect's feature, so GMs tend to overlook what players actually are and focus way too much on what player might become. And let's face it, big portion of those players don't have talent that scouts,Gms and mainstream media projects they have.

Lonzo Ball was that "40 inch vertical Steph Curry". It was joke, but told too many times that everybody started to belive in it.
Guy was projected to be great shooter - reality: He couldn't turn left or shoot due shooting arch
Projected to be great shooer all together- reality shot 60% FTs at college
Projected to be amazing pick&roll player - reality wasn't even good pick&roll player at college

So teams just nosedive into lottery to get high picks and take mainstream hyped players like Ayton and Lonzo, with unrealistic expetations that backifre soon as it becomes clear those players are nowhere near as good as media projected them to be. But in fear of being called out in talkshows from clueless basketball morons like SAS, Skip Clueless and former NFL players (lol... just lol ) you have teams like Suns and Kings passing on Doncic or Suns passing on Fox to take Jackson " new Jimmy Butler". While being in desparate need for point guard

Read what scouting reports viewed as Mitchell downfall:
size - reality 6'3 but crazy athletic and built like a tank
decision making - while in same time , in same class, same scouts were blown away by how Lonzo Ball can in empty gym make his semi-autistic jumpshot ( without jumping, while swinging ball from forhead like special need kid , while taking 5 seconds to even get in position to lunch shot ) :crazy:

From 2003 to this date, only 3 first overall draft picks ended up being the best players of draft class:
Lebron, Howard and maybe Davis ( could make strong case Lillard is more valuable in modern era ). That's 3 out of 17.
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#238 » by drsd » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:15 am

Ducklett wrote:The Jazz and the Celtics didn't freeze their youth out like a certain balding frenchman sending our young sub30% 3 point shooting PG to go camp the corner next to our unicorn PF.


In the last 15 years, the Jazz has had only one miserable season and the Celts only two miserable seasons, 2013/14 and then 2013/14; 2006/07.

So this is actually my point: the Jazz and the Celts developed young players in a system that promoted actually winning games.


..
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#239 » by drsd » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:26 am

pepe1991 wrote:Magic don't "freeze" their youth, their youth simply isn't that amazing, and that's fine. Most young players are not great. However, portion of fans keep blaming everybody but those players for all their shortcommings. Maybe just maybe at least part of the blame is on them? It's not like Fournier is contesting Fultz jumpers. Just like Bamba can't put himself into basketball shape. It's on him, nobody else.


And-1

The Magic has continuously drafted upside projects. Every player of the last five years was "at least 3-years in the NBA from being competent" when drafted.

Looking at players like Donovan Mitchell, Pascal Siakam, Malcolm Brogdon, Damian Lillard, Draymond Green, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, and Jimmy Butler, there is loads of All-star talent to be found outside the one-and-done crowd.

Even very recent journeymen fit this mold: Mikal Bridges, Miles Bridges, Luke Kennard, Taurean Prince, Domantas Sabonis.

Upside is great, but being proven capable of actually playing basketball is something scouts need to look closer at in ranking prospects, in my opinion.

..
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Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#240 » by drsd » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:27 am

MagicMatic wrote:Newsflash: not every team in the nba has a winning record. Are you going to tell me next that Ja Morant is in a bad situation because the Grizzlies went 34-39 and he’s “learning how to lose” and not in a “winning environment”? :lol: I think he’ll be ok regardless. I’d also take him over a majority of winning teams point guards fwiw. Your argument makes no sense.


On average, half do. The real point is that the draft is about allocating the best players to the worst teams.

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