ImageImageImageImage

Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($)

Moderators: Howard Mass, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro, SOUL, Def Swami, UCFJayBird

User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 28,234
And1: 4,556
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#241 » by drsd » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:36 am

pepe1991 wrote:Issue is "common sense" how players are getting drafted.
Teams and GMs draft in very particular order and most of them avoiding far reach from common sense /media established "draft order" to not be ridiculed.
This is why now, more than ever, great players fall form top 10 and more and more busts are inside top 10. Half of allstar is made by non- lottery picks.


This really interesting post has me thinking more of Aaron Nesmith. He could become the one-trick-pony that K. Thompson has become: a 20 pug catch-N-shoot player.

Elite shooter with good length and above average defender. What more does Orlando want in its 2020 rookie ?


..
User avatar
fendilim
RealGM
Posts: 27,385
And1: 3,503
Joined: Jun 11, 2002
Location: 孫悟空, 时间太?!

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#242 » by fendilim » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:55 am

I just hope we draft basketball players now. Drafting physical specimens or athletes is getting us nowhere, again.
Image
Skybox
Veteran
Posts: 2,736
And1: 1,549
Joined: Jan 21, 2017
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#243 » by Skybox » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:08 am

For those discounting “culture”...would Herro being doing what he’s doing if the Magic picked him, or would he be a nice backup for Evan that provides depth? NO question in my mind that player development includes actually playing them in important situations to show that you believe in them and that you expect more...if you believe in your draft analysis, then demand performance. Once again, the Heat outclass everyone by evaluating mindset and then letting them go with an expectation of the player delivering. Coddling and sheltering is BS...Fultzis a bit different because we’re rebuilding him from the trash heap ata bargain. Also, if MIA recognized they swung and missed, they cut bait quickly and violently, regardless of cost (see Waiters).
zaymon
Starter
Posts: 2,399
And1: 1,276
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#244 » by zaymon » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:18 pm

fendilim wrote:I just hope we draft basketball players now. Drafting physical specimens or athletes is getting us nowhere, again.

I think Okeke was a move in right direction. He is obviously basketball player. Tough I understand the Weltman logic. You need to be physical specimen to protect the paint in the nba. When you rebuild, at the beginning the most sense make aquiring raw prospects who take the longest to develop. (Isaac, Bamba). Obviously you always take bpa, but in our case it kind of was the same thing. Now we have our freak framework and the second (hardest?) step is to aquire ball handlers.(Fultz?)
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
User avatar
MartinsIzAfraud
Analyst
Posts: 3,415
And1: 2,774
Joined: Mar 07, 2017
Location: Work
   

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#245 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:59 pm

This FO got lucky that Herro didn't make it to 15 because it would've been another choke job by them.

Shooting matters, offensive skills matter, the playoffs are showing us that and our FO continues to look away trying to outsmart 99% of the NBA
LONG LENGTHY ATHLETIC... CAN’T SHOOT
User avatar
MartinsIzAfraud
Analyst
Posts: 3,415
And1: 2,774
Joined: Mar 07, 2017
Location: Work
   

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#246 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:10 pm

Skybox wrote:For those discounting “culture”...would Herro being doing what he’s doing if the Magic picked him, or would he be a nice backup for Evan that provides depth? NO question in my mind that player development includes actually playing them in important situations to show that you believe in them and that you expect more...if you believe in your draft analysis, then demand performance. Once again, the Heat outclass everyone by evaluating mindset and then letting them go with an expectation of the player delivering. Coddling and sheltering is BS...Fultzis a bit different because we’re rebuilding him from the trash heap ata bargain. Also, if MIA recognized they swung and missed, they cut bait quickly and violently, regardless of cost (see Waiters).


0 chance Herro is playing with the confidence he is playing with right now. Dude is handling the ball, starting the offense, pushing the tempo and hitting transition 3's. He's an integral part of that offense and is holding his own defensively.
LONG LENGTHY ATHLETIC... CAN’T SHOOT
zaymon
Starter
Posts: 2,399
And1: 1,276
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#247 » by zaymon » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:22 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Skybox wrote:For those discounting “culture”...would Herro being doing what he’s doing if the Magic picked him, or would he be a nice backup for Evan that provides depth? NO question in my mind that player development includes actually playing them in important situations to show that you believe in them and that you expect more...if you believe in your draft analysis, then demand performance. Once again, the Heat outclass everyone by evaluating mindset and then letting them go with an expectation of the player delivering. Coddling and sheltering is BS...Fultzis a bit different because we’re rebuilding him from the trash heap ata bargain. Also, if MIA recognized they swung and missed, they cut bait quickly and violently, regardless of cost (see Waiters).


0 chance Herro is playing with the confidence he is playing with right now. Dude is handling the ball, starting the offense, pushing the tempo and hitting transition 3's. He's an integral part of that offense and is holding his own defensively.


Fultz had higher usage than Herro in the playoffs while being less ready to play.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
Skybox
Veteran
Posts: 2,736
And1: 1,549
Joined: Jan 21, 2017
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#248 » by Skybox » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:01 pm

zaymon wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Skybox wrote:For those discounting “culture”...would Herro being doing what he’s doing if the Magic picked him, or would he be a nice backup for Evan that provides depth? NO question in my mind that player development includes actually playing them in important situations to show that you believe in them and that you expect more...if you believe in your draft analysis, then demand performance. Once again, the Heat outclass everyone by evaluating mindset and then letting them go with an expectation of the player delivering. Coddling and sheltering is BS...Fultzis a bit different because we’re rebuilding him from the trash heap ata bargain. Also, if MIA recognized they swung and missed, they cut bait quickly and violently, regardless of cost (see Waiters).


0 chance Herro is playing with the confidence he is playing with right now. Dude is handling the ball, starting the offense, pushing the tempo and hitting transition 3's. He's an integral part of that offense and is holding his own defensively.


Fultz had higher usage than Herro in the playoffs while being less ready to play.


Fultz got to redshirt a year (not even counting his first team)...he's an exceptional situation but still got "handled" differently
zaymon
Starter
Posts: 2,399
And1: 1,276
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#249 » by zaymon » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:05 pm

Skybox wrote:
zaymon wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
0 chance Herro is playing with the confidence he is playing with right now. Dude is handling the ball, starting the offense, pushing the tempo and hitting transition 3's. He's an integral part of that offense and is holding his own defensively.


Fultz had higher usage than Herro in the playoffs while being less ready to play.


Fultz got to redshirt a year (not even counting his first team)...he's an exceptional situation but still got "handled" differently

I think Clifford gave Fultz very long leash all season despite lack of shooting, or any particular strength for that matter. We can be jealous of Herro if we want, but i think Clifford showed he will play a young guy if he is capable of handling the load.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
User avatar
MagicMatic
Head Coach
Posts: 6,586
And1: 6,459
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#250 » by MagicMatic » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:21 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Newsflash: not every team in the nba has a winning record. Are you going to tell me next that Ja Morant is in a bad situation because the Grizzlies went 34-39 and he’s “learning how to lose” and not in a “winning environment”? :lol: I think he’ll be ok regardless. I’d also take him over a majority of winning teams point guards fwiw. Your argument makes no sense.


On average, half do. The real point is that the draft is about allocating the best players to the worst teams.

..



Correct, so are we discounting the fact that teams in poor situations, without great assets, are unable to develop players because of their circumstances? No.

Some teams are further along than others and happen to be competitive right away. It doesn’t mean these prospects can’t drive their teams into contention.

What you are talking about is a chicken - egg situation. LeBron James went 35-47 his rookie year on a “losing culture” Cavs team. Justise Winslow was drafted 10th to the Heat just recently and he isn’t a world beater. So I’m tired about hearing these unquantifiable statements like “culture” “winning attitude” and “losing mentality”.

The NBA is about talent and asset management. End of story. If you are going to talk about something substantial, in relation to the output of these players, you should be looking at roster situation, minute distribution, and skill set.

Clifford will undoubtedly give Fultz more time this upcoming season. That will result in more experience for him as a player. How he handles that responsibility is on him and Clifford. If the FO chooses to acquire more talent (for once) it’ll put him in a better situation for W’s and grow his confidence. If they decide to go younger by trading vets, then that opens more discussion and changes how Fultz plays around the newly acquired talent.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,936
And1: 10,815
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#251 » by tiderulz » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:51 pm

drsd wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Issue is "common sense" how players are getting drafted.
Teams and GMs draft in very particular order and most of them avoiding far reach from common sense /media established "draft order" to not be ridiculed.
This is why now, more than ever, great players fall form top 10 and more and more busts are inside top 10. Half of allstar is made by non- lottery picks.


This really interesting post has me thinking more of Aaron Nesmith. He could become the one-trick-pony that K. Thompson has become: a 20 pug catch-N-shoot player.

Elite shooter with good length and above average defender. What more does Orlando want in its 2020 rookie ?


..

if we have a chance, i would take him. shooting counts. toss in a future 2nd round pick if we have to move up a couple of slots. not like this front office would use that 2nd rounder anyways
MasterGMer
Rookie
Posts: 1,006
And1: 135
Joined: Dec 09, 2011
   

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#252 » by MasterGMer » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:02 pm

Harden seems to be on the trading block with many rumors and speculations. Should we try to trade for Harden?
OrlandoNed
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,983
And1: 4,360
Joined: Jul 31, 2013
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#253 » by OrlandoNed » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:20 pm

MasterGMer wrote:Harden seems to be on the trading block with many rumors and speculations. Should we try to trade for Harden?

#1 I pray for you if that isn’t a rhetorical question.

#2 With what assets? Who the hell are we outbidding for a superstar?
User avatar
KillMonger
RealGM
Posts: 10,901
And1: 4,942
Joined: Oct 13, 2012
     

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#254 » by KillMonger » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:38 pm

MasterGMer wrote:Harden seems to be on the trading block with many rumors and speculations. Should we try to trade for Harden?

Image
Image

FREE AG...... FREE HEZONJA....... FREE AG...... FREE HEZONJA
Skybox
Veteran
Posts: 2,736
And1: 1,549
Joined: Jan 21, 2017
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#255 » by Skybox » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:11 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Newsflash: not every team in the nba has a winning record. Are you going to tell me next that Ja Morant is in a bad situation because the Grizzlies went 34-39 and he’s “learning how to lose” and not in a “winning environment”? :lol: I think he’ll be ok regardless. I’d also take him over a majority of winning teams point guards fwiw. Your argument makes no sense.


On average, half do. The real point is that the draft is about allocating the best players to the worst teams.

..



Correct, so are we discounting the fact that teams in poor situations, without great assets, are unable to develop players because of their circumstances? No.

Some teams are further along than others and happen to be competitive right away. It doesn’t mean these prospects can’t drive their teams into contention.

What you are talking about is a chicken - egg situation. LeBron James went 35-47 his rookie year on a “losing culture” Cavs team. Justise Winslow was drafted 10th to the Heat just recently and he isn’t a world beater. So I’m tired about hearing these unquantifiable statements like “culture” “winning attitude” and “losing mentality”.

The NBA is about talent and asset management. End of story. If you are going to talk about something substantial, in relation to the output of these players, you should be looking at roster situation, minute distribution, and skill set.

Clifford will undoubtedly give Fultz more time this upcoming season. That will result in more experience for him as a player. How he handles that responsibility is on him and Clifford. If the FO chooses to acquire more talent (for once) it’ll put him in a better situation for W’s and grow his confidence. If they decide to go younger by trading vets, then that opens more discussion and changes how Fultz plays around the newly acquired talent.


My point is that they threw them out there to play and make mistakes. Please don't compare LBJ to mortals...whatever team he's on, even when he's 18, has a winning culture. He may have picked up donuts for the vets-but he was calling shots from day 1. Good thing they didn't sit him out to work on mechanics and conditioning.
Skybox
Veteran
Posts: 2,736
And1: 1,549
Joined: Jan 21, 2017
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#256 » by Skybox » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:29 pm

Skybox wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
drsd wrote:
On average, half do. The real point is that the draft is about allocating the best players to the worst teams.

..



Correct, so are we discounting the fact that teams in poor situations, without great assets, are unable to develop players because of their circumstances? No.

Some teams are further along than others and happen to be competitive right away. It doesn’t mean these prospects can’t drive their teams into contention.

What you are talking about is a chicken - egg situation. LeBron James went 35-47 his rookie year on a “losing culture” Cavs team. Justise Winslow was drafted 10th to the Heat just recently and he isn’t a world beater. So I’m tired about hearing these unquantifiable statements like “culture” “winning attitude” and “losing mentality”.

The NBA is about talent and asset management. End of story. If you are going to talk about something substantial, in relation to the output of these players, you should be looking at roster situation, minute distribution, and skill set.

Clifford will undoubtedly give Fultz more time this upcoming season. That will result in more experience for him as a player. How he handles that responsibility is on him and Clifford. If the FO chooses to acquire more talent (for once) it’ll put him in a better situation for W’s and grow his confidence. If they decide to go younger by trading vets, then that opens more discussion and changes how Fultz plays around the newly acquired talent.


My point is that they threw them out there to play and make mistakes. Please don't compare LBJ to mortals...whatever team he's on, even when he's 18, has a winning culture. He may have picked up donuts for the vets-but he was calling shots from day 1. Good thing they didn't sit him out to work on mechanics and conditioning.


Much of sports is "unquantifiable"...otherwise, they wouldn't bother playing the games. There's obviously a huge human element of grace under pressure (or lack of) that you can't see until you see.
User avatar
MagicMatic
Head Coach
Posts: 6,586
And1: 6,459
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#257 » by MagicMatic » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:02 pm

Skybox wrote:
Skybox wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:

Correct, so are we discounting the fact that teams in poor situations, without great assets, are unable to develop players because of their circumstances? No.

Some teams are further along than others and happen to be competitive right away. It doesn’t mean these prospects can’t drive their teams into contention.

What you are talking about is a chicken - egg situation. LeBron James went 35-47 his rookie year on a “losing culture” Cavs team. Justise Winslow was drafted 10th to the Heat just recently and he isn’t a world beater. So I’m tired about hearing these unquantifiable statements like “culture” “winning attitude” and “losing mentality”.

The NBA is about talent and asset management. End of story. If you are going to talk about something substantial, in relation to the output of these players, you should be looking at roster situation, minute distribution, and skill set.

Clifford will undoubtedly give Fultz more time this upcoming season. That will result in more experience for him as a player. How he handles that responsibility is on him and Clifford. If the FO chooses to acquire more talent (for once) it’ll put him in a better situation for W’s and grow his confidence. If they decide to go younger by trading vets, then that opens more discussion and changes how Fultz plays around the newly acquired talent.


My point is that they threw them out there to play and make mistakes. Please don't compare LBJ to mortals...whatever team he's on, even when he's 18, has a winning culture. He may have picked up donuts for the vets-but he was calling shots from day 1. Good thing they didn't sit him out to work on mechanics and conditioning.


Much of sports is "unquantiable"...otherwise, they wouldn't bother playing the games. There's obviously a huge human element of grace under pressure (or lack of) that you can't see until you see.


Yeah, but Front Offices aren’t going to forgo drafting youth at the top of the draft because they fear a “losing mentality” if they don’t have the perfect balance.

Just like they shouldn’t forgo changing a capped mediocre roster that hasn’t accomplished anything because they fear being young might mean they lose some games in the short term.

The claim was made that Atlanta wasn’t trying to contend now with their roster moves and that equals the worst outcome for their youth. Obviously GMs aren’t as dense as most people on this board. They know whether or not they are truly contending, or if they are in a developmental stage. To say they are putting their young players in a “losing environment” is an oversimplification of the process and short sighted. It’s not necessarily a choice.

There is little to no parity in the nba. Nearly every team that was expected to be a playoff contender was such. It’s a talent based league and not based on unquantifiable feelings and perceived culture.

If you believe otherwise, you should go watch some feel good Disney sports movies. The mighty Ducks is a good one.
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 28,234
And1: 4,556
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#258 » by drsd » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:35 pm

tiderulz wrote:if we have a chance, i would take him. shooting counts. toss in a future 2nd round pick if we have to move up a couple of slots. not like this front office would use that 2nd rounder anyways


The #15 and the #45 for something like the #13 might not be enough. Perhaps the Magic add next year's 2nd. Or the expiring rights to Ennis when he re-ups.
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 28,234
And1: 4,556
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#259 » by drsd » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:44 pm

MagicMatic wrote:There is little to no parity in the nba. Nearly every team that was expected to be a playoff contender was such. It’s a talent based league and not based on unquantifiable feelings and perceived culture.


It was basically a year ago today that the pundits were making their 2019/20 predictions.

Essentially all had these seven teams in the playoffs, usually in this order: Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Boston, Brooklyn, Toronto, Miami, and Indiana.

Then the 8th seed was usually between Detroit and Orlando.

In other words, the pendants were fairly accurate. The seedings are iffy, but actual participation in the playoffs, many pundits were 100% for Eastern predictions.
User avatar
MagicMatic
Head Coach
Posts: 6,586
And1: 6,459
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: Weltman Talks to Robbins on Future of the Roster ($) 

Post#260 » by MagicMatic » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:52 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:There is little to no parity in the nba. Nearly every team that was expected to be a playoff contender was such. It’s a talent based league and not based on unquantifiable feelings and perceived culture.


It was basically a year ago today that the pundits were making their 2019/20 predictions.

Essentially all had these seven teams in the playoffs, usually in this order: Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Boston, Brooklyn, Toronto, Miami, and Indiana.

Then the 8th seed was usually between Detroit and Orlando.

In other words, the pendants were fairly accurate. The seedings are iffy, but actual participation in the playoffs, many pundits were 100% for Eastern predictions.


Yes, and I would say that the only major difference in the west was that OKC surpassed expectations and knocked a few fringe playoff teams out of an appearance.

Obviously injuries are something that can’t be factored into the equation. However, for the most part they are fairly accurate.

Return to Orlando Magic