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Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition]

Moderators: Howard Mass, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro, SOUL, Def Swami, UCFJayBird

How should we proceed with our wing rotation in 2020/2021 season

Draft bpa regardless of position, most likely resign Fournier
3
18%
Sign free agent to replace Fournier
0
No votes
Trade for veteran
0
No votes
Trade for young prospect
4
24%
Draft a wing and make a decision on Fournier later
10
59%
 
Total votes: 17

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Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#1 » by zaymon » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:20 pm

Many here believe our biggest problem is wing rotation (Fournier). I couldnt get the answer how to change it so i made this breakdown as a base for discussion.

Free agent targets:

Player option: DeMar DeRozan, Nicolas Batum, Evan Fournier, Tim Hardaway, Tony Snell, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Rodney Hood, Avery Bradley, Wesley Matthews, Austin Rivers, Mario Hezonja

Unrestricted free agents: Kent Bazemore, Courtney Lee, E'Twaun Moore, Joe Harris, Langston Galloway, Marco Belinelli, Justin Holiday, Bryn Forbes, Kyle Korver, Alec Burks, Glenn Robinson III, Furkan Korkmaz, Pat Connaughton, David Nwaba, Jordan McRae, Dion Waiters

Restricted free agents: Bogdan Bogdanovic, Denzel Valentine, Malik Beasley, Damyean Dotson, Sterling Brown, Garrison Mathews

Breakdown: Only Derozan is a better pnr ball handler than Fournier, but he is not a shooter, and will likely opt in. All other options are a downgrade as a ball handler and most of them downgrade as a shooter.

Trade targets:

Veterans in bad situations: Zach LaVine, Buddy Hield, Victor Oladipo, Caris LeVert, Gary Harris, Eric Gordon, Cj McCollum

Breakdown: Only Harris and healthy Gordon/ Oladipo are better defensively. On offense they are all comparable pnr ball handlers except Gary who is worse. They are similar drivers and pull up shooters, but Fournier on one of the lowest volume (except Gary who is worse). Fournier and Harris are the worst isolation scorers, rest is average- good, except Gordon who is very good. All of them pretty comparable passers. All in all i think Eric Gordon is the only one who would make a difference, but he is 31 years old with big contract and health issues. Its also notable that Fournier has the lowest salary.

Young players with potential: Gary Trent, Troy Brown, Malik Monk, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Anfernee Simons, Kevin Porter, Jarrett Culver, Romeo Langford, Luke Kennard

Breakdown: I think most of you see a trend here, there is not a lot of intriguing options available. Even from those i think Trent, Brown, Porter and Culver are not really options for us. Trent is good shooter, but limited athletically and as a passer which was visible in the plaoffs. Brown is limited to spot up shooting. Monk is undersized and struggled with his shot. NAW and Simons were overall bad. Kennard has limited upside and health issues. Culver and Langford struggled with their shot to the point they could be never playable in the playoffs. Porter had background issues. I would maybe try to buy low on Monk, but i doubt Clifford will want him. Trent and Brown would propably be too expensive and without star potential.

Not realistic veterans: Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, James Harden, Jaylen Brown, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Khris Middleton

Draft targets (big and fast enough to guard 2):

Trading up: Hayes, Ball, Edwards, Haliburton, Vassell, Okoro.

Breakdown: Okoro is not a 2 unless he makes a massive jump "in" shooting, he could be a great compliment next to Fournier tough. Hayes is big enough to defend both guard spots in the future. If his shot develops he could play next to Fultz in double pg lineups or replace Markelle as a starter.
I dont like Ball for us, he is not quick and not a good shooter. From what i heard he is not the hardest worker.
Edwards is losing wherever he plays. Not a good passer, not efficient shooter, average ball handler, low iq defender. My least favourite prospect this year. (last year i didnt like Barrett, two years ago Bagley and Bamba).
Haliburton has weak frame and is not very athletic. He is good spot up shooter, but not a pull up threat and not a driver. He would be useful as a passer and team defender but i dont see high ceiling, similar to NAW.
Vassell is propably the most interesting outside Hayes. He is better version of Iwundu. I would be reluctant to trade up for him becouse right now he is limited to two effective dribbles at most and ball handling is hard to improve. He doesnt draw fouls.


Our range: Cole, Maxey, Hampton, Green, Bolmaro, Bane, Maledon

Breakdown: Some really interesting options here, shockingly every prospect is totally different. We could see what skill set Weltman prioritizes on guards. From Bucks and Raptors example i deduct they will target big, strong guards with solid playmaking and self creation.
Best fitting is propably one of my favourite prospects Desmond Bane. He is exceptionally strong dude, not long but big and arguably the best shooter in the draft, also smart passer. Some question his ceiling, but i dont agree. He just needs to not get killed athletically (similarly to Grant Williams ?) and he will be golden. I dont consider him a reach.
Cole Anthony is tempting. He is undersized but very explosive and sneaky strong. He doesnt clear my playmaking bar, but his pull up shooting could be enough to prosper. He could have similar role to Kemba Walker, Donovan Mitchell and we can see how important that is in the post season. Is he even a good player ? I dont know, but his stats are awful.
Maxey is also undersized but strong and feisty. He has great finishing package, and pull up ability. His biggest question are 3 point shooting, playmaking and athletecism.
Hampton is biggest boom or bust for me. His first step is lightning quick, but his ball handling and decision making is suspect. A lot will depend on his shot. Not a good defender right now.
Green is athletic and strong but awful finisher and limited to spot up shooting. Not much offenisve potential but scary defender.
I like Bolmaro. He is long and light on his feet. Him and Maledon are the best playmakers by far in this group. Very good on ball defender. It will come down to his shot and athletic ability.
Maledon is brilliant passer. He is fairly strong and long. Average athlete. Like most here it will come down to his shooting, but the floor is higher with his advanced passing.
Weltman drafted a center and two forwards in the first round, maybe this year it will be a guard/wing ? The depth is solid and some of the above will certainly be available with our pick. I like our spot in the draft if we want to find a future Fournier replacement. Its not very likely but Fournier was a mid first rounder himself.


In my ideal scenario Fournier opts in and we draft someone like Bane, Bolmaro, Cole or Maledon (optionally trade up for Hayes). Clifford will see what we have in our rookie and Fournier will have another great regular season. At the deadline we decide if we want to sell high on Fournier or try to resign him in the offseason. If Evan has a bad season we let him walk or resign on a very team friendly deal. Alternatively if Weltman thinks one of Pokusevski, Lewis or Dotson have star potential i would draft them and try to resign Fournier.

I encourage everyone to write their favourite scenarios with specific replacement targets. I picked between options 1 and 5, but at the end i lean towards drafting on potential so i chose 1.
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1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#2 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:02 pm

Draft a wing at 15 play out the season and trade Fournier at the deadline if needed.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#3 » by Max Power » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:46 pm

I won’t pretend to know a ton about draft prospects. Obviously our trade and free agency options aren’t really stellar. Good write up by the way Zeymon.

I’d prefer to rid ourselves of Fournier. I don’t think the Magic are that much worse or better with him or without. They win 35 or so games either way since Issac is missing.

I’ve never loved Fournier’s game. I’m not a total hater, he’s had some clutch moments and is a useful scorer, but he is by far our most mistake ridden player. Crunch time turnovers from him the last several years has made me want them to move on. He looks for Evan first and foremost.

I would love to see the Magic pry CJ McCollum out Portland to pair with Vuc. I think they’d elevate this team offensively. I fear we don’t have the horses to intrigue the Blazers though. So I’ll support any big athletic wing we hopefully draft. If Weltman and Hammond want to keep their jobs, hopefully shooting is attribute 1 they look at and not wing span. We need a proven scorer in the worst way.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#4 » by MasterGMer » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:50 am

I really hope Evan can opt in, so that we have one more asset. We can trade Evan in the offseason or before the trade deadline, for a younger player.

I do not know who we gonna get yet. And I am also interested in getting rid of one SF/PF Combo player already on the roster.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#5 » by zaymon » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:37 pm

Max Power wrote:I won’t pretend to know a ton about draft prospects. Obviously our trade and free agency options aren’t really stellar. Good write up by the way Zeymon.

I’d prefer to rid ourselves of Fournier. I don’t think the Magic are that much worse or better with him or without. They win 35 or so games either way since Issac is missing.

I’ve never loved Fournier’s game. I’m not a total hater, he’s had some clutch moments and is a useful scorer, but he is by far our most mistake ridden player. Crunch time turnovers from him the last several years has made me want them to move on. He looks for Evan first and foremost.

I would love to see the Magic pry CJ McCollum out Portland to pair with Vuc. I think they’d elevate this team offensively. I fear we don’t have the horses to intrigue the Blazers though. So I’ll support any big athletic wing we hopefully draft. If Weltman and Hammond want to keep their jobs, hopefully shooting is attribute 1 they look at and not wing span. We need a proven scorer in the worst way.

I am ok with upgrading the position but as you can see above its not that easy. Fournier is top half of nba shooting guards. If we let him walk there is a chance we wont find anyone better for a long time and you need to have shooters next to Fultz. McCollum is good but undersized, overpized and not the greatest passer. Depending on price i would consider it.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#6 » by deggett » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:19 pm

MasterGMer wrote:I really hope Evan can opt in, so that we have one more asset. We can trade Evan in the offseason or before the trade deadline, for a younger player.

I do not know who we gonna get yet. And I am also interested in getting rid of one SF/PF Combo player already on the roster.


Why would Evan opt in, and give all the leverage? I doubt there will be more money for him next offseason, add to that chance to be traded somewhere mid season.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#7 » by fendilim » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:20 pm

For a team that lacks a cornerstone, I dont see any reason why we shouldnt go BPA.

Clearly, what we have here can’t be fixed. So swinging for the fences is something we should go with. Just like how WeHam got Giannis.

I’d still want to see us tank, dont get me wrong. But having this pick is the constant we have right now.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#8 » by jezzerinho » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:44 pm

First off, terrific thread and great summary.

We want Evan to opt in, so he becomes an asset and not a sunk cost for not having traded him before.

I have real doubts about his and Vic's ability to coexist. The principal result of buddy all seems to have been that one player has a great year while the other plays below par and the following year it reverses. We never really get FIBA-Fournier and the Vuc of this season's playoffs at the same time.

I'd be looking for a S&T of Evan, even acknowledging we won't get back a player who can give us similar equivalent production in the short term.

CJ would be very interesting for us as the exception to that, Ia trade with other assets. He could really coexist with Fultz and maybe replace Markelle if we don't get the expected improvement.

Solutions in the draft? I think we need a primary initiating option way more than a "shooter". I'd be prepared to look at PGs/Combos/SGs and SFs to find one.

I think at 15 Orlando will go Maledon if it's a guard or maybe Saddiq Bey as a SF.

I personally would be looking at Terry, Anthony, Maxey and also Bey of the guys projected around our pick. I like Maledon's game a lot but he's way too introverted as a person and a player to fill the need we have of a leader and shot creator.
Lewis lacks craft and touch at getting to the rim in traffic. Hampton is a total shot in the dark. Getting Anthony at 15 I think is buying low on him as a long term bet. Like his personality, basketball heritage, aggression, handle and shooting form. Not wild on his playmaking and BBIQ.

Bolmaro is so boom and bust I have trouble getting behind him. He shows some awesome flashes but his shooting is a lottery and there's a lack of consistency in his game, albeit on limited minutes.

Finally, if we could get someone out of a Gordon and/or Ross and/or Aminu and/or Bamba trade, who could be that primary option and creator, I may even be able to swallow Evan staying in as a starter.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#9 » by Bensational » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:04 pm

I don't know if the 'opt-in/re-sign him so we don't lose an asset for nothing' holds up. Like Vuc and possibly even Gordon, they've been on our team on their current deals or even better value (like Vuc) and teams haven't offered a trade we can't turn down.

Keeping Fournier might end up making him a negative asset which we have to trade for other similar contracts like Allen Crabbe or Jeff Teague.

He's just had a strong contract year performance with his shooting efficiency. If next season he thinks there's a chance he could be traded, I'd hate to see him go hero-mode trying to raise his value.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#10 » by Skin » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:46 pm

Bensational wrote:I don't know if the 'opt-in/re-sign him so we don't lose an asset for nothing' holds up. Like Vuc and possibly even Gordon, they've been on our team on their current deals or even better value (like Vuc) and teams haven't offered a trade we can't turn down.

Keeping Fournier might end up making him a negative asset which we have to trade for other similar contracts like Allen Crabbe or Jeff Teague.

He's just had a strong contract year performance with his shooting efficiency. If next season he thinks there's a chance he could be traded, I'd hate to see him go hero-mode trying to raise his value.

Exactly. He's never been a trade asset. Don't see how that would change. If anything he'll pay selfish in order to get a big new contract.

We also have to consider the feeble minds running this team. If Fournier started putting up high ppg stats based on his selfish play then our weak simple minded GMs might be fooled into thinking we need him and will give him a new 4 year deal.

I hope to hell he opts out and signs somewhere else.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#11 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:26 pm

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:I don't know if the 'opt-in/re-sign him so we don't lose an asset for nothing' holds up. Like Vuc and possibly even Gordon, they've been on our team on their current deals or even better value (like Vuc) and teams haven't offered a trade we can't turn down.

Keeping Fournier might end up making him a negative asset which we have to trade for other similar contracts like Allen Crabbe or Jeff Teague.

He's just had a strong contract year performance with his shooting efficiency. If next season he thinks there's a chance he could be traded, I'd hate to see him go hero-mode trying to raise his value.

Exactly. He's never been a trade asset. Don't see how that would change. If anything he'll pay selfish in order to get a big new contract.

We also have to consider the feeble minds running this team. If Fournier started putting up high ppg stats based on his selfish play then our weak simple minded GMs might be fooled into thinking we need him and will give him a new 4 year deal.

I hope to hell he opts out and signs somewhere else.

he's getting that 4 year deal this summer.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#12 » by Skin » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:35 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:I don't know if the 'opt-in/re-sign him so we don't lose an asset for nothing' holds up. Like Vuc and possibly even Gordon, they've been on our team on their current deals or even better value (like Vuc) and teams haven't offered a trade we can't turn down.

Keeping Fournier might end up making him a negative asset which we have to trade for other similar contracts like Allen Crabbe or Jeff Teague.

He's just had a strong contract year performance with his shooting efficiency. If next season he thinks there's a chance he could be traded, I'd hate to see him go hero-mode trying to raise his value.

Exactly. He's never been a trade asset. Don't see how that would change. If anything he'll pay selfish in order to get a big new contract.

We also have to consider the feeble minds running this team. If Fournier started putting up high ppg stats based on his selfish play then our weak simple minded GMs might be fooled into thinking we need him and will give him a new 4 year deal.

I hope to hell he opts out and signs somewhere else.

he's getting that 4 year deal this summer.

You better be talking S&T scenario. :D
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#13 » by MasterGMer » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:58 am

When should we hear the decision by Fournier?
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#14 » by TheGlyde » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:04 am

MasterGMer wrote:When should we hear the decision by Fournier?


I believe he has to decide by October 14th.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#15 » by jezzerinho » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:31 am

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:I don't know if the 'opt-in/re-sign him so we don't lose an asset for nothing' holds up. Like Vuc and possibly even Gordon, they've been on our team on their current deals or even better value (like Vuc) and teams haven't offered a trade we can't turn down.

Keeping Fournier might end up making him a negative asset which we have to trade for other similar contracts like Allen Crabbe or Jeff Teague.

He's just had a strong contract year performance with his shooting efficiency. If next season he thinks there's a chance he could be traded, I'd hate to see him go hero-mode trying to raise his value.

Exactly. He's never been a trade asset. Don't see how that would change. If anything he'll pay selfish in order to get a big new contract.

We also have to consider the feeble minds running this team. If Fournier started putting up high ppg stats based on his selfish play then our weak simple minded GMs might be fooled into thinking we need him and will give him a new 4 year deal.

I hope to hell he opts out and signs somewhere else.


Then we were clearly asking for too much. Some kind of asset is better than none.

The thread is about what we would do, not the GMs. I would S&T him.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#16 » by Skin » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 am

jezzerinho wrote:
Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:I don't know if the 'opt-in/re-sign him so we don't lose an asset for nothing' holds up. Like Vuc and possibly even Gordon, they've been on our team on their current deals or even better value (like Vuc) and teams haven't offered a trade we can't turn down.

Keeping Fournier might end up making him a negative asset which we have to trade for other similar contracts like Allen Crabbe or Jeff Teague.

He's just had a strong contract year performance with his shooting efficiency. If next season he thinks there's a chance he could be traded, I'd hate to see him go hero-mode trying to raise his value.

Exactly. He's never been a trade asset. Don't see how that would change. If anything he'll pay selfish in order to get a big new contract.

We also have to consider the feeble minds running this team. If Fournier started putting up high ppg stats based on his selfish play then our weak simple minded GMs might be fooled into thinking we need him and will give him a new 4 year deal.

I hope to hell he opts out and signs somewhere else.


Then we were clearly asking for too much. Some kind of asset is better than none.

The thread is about what we would do, not the GMs. I would S&T him.

S&Ts are typically terrible, but yeah... if there is a draft asset involved sometimes, something is better than nothing... not always though. Wouldn't want to take on a bad contract for a 2nd round pick. Remember, cap space created by letting him go shouldn't be viewed as nothing.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#17 » by pepe1991 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:04 am

Bensational wrote:I don't know if the 'opt-in/re-sign him so we don't lose an asset for nothing' holds up. Like Vuc and possibly even Gordon, they've been on our team on their current deals or even better value (like Vuc) and teams haven't offered a trade we can't turn down.

Keeping Fournier might end up making him a negative asset which we have to trade for other similar contracts like Allen Crabbe or Jeff Teague.

He's just had a strong contract year performance with his shooting efficiency. If next season he thinks there's a chance he could be traded, I'd hate to see him go hero-mode trying to raise his value.


How will him opting out and walking for nothing help Magic?
2020 free agency, Magic without him still over cap space, nobody can be added.
2021 - Vuc, Ross, Aminu, Bamba, Gordon, Okeke, 2021 pick salary + second round pick (and some filler salary) $80-82 M in books commited without Isaac, Fultz exstension, with cumulative salary of $30 each, Magic already capped out.

Soo... him leaving means nothing for Magic salary in terms of ability to use his money elsewhere.
Him being expiring, very playable on contender $17M is waaay more useful than Magic having player less and no objective way how to replace him.

He also does not block PT of anybody, as his backup, Terrence Ross, is older than him and also can be trade chip if Magic draft SG.

This is terrible comparison - Crabbe and Teague.
Teague was traded TWICE in 3 years, so he was far away from untradable, and he is 32 (and traded). Hawks even got lottery pick in return when they traded him in summer of 2016 ( Taurean Prince )

Crabbe is career 9 ppg, 1,1 apg who can't defend and who's shots brought positive value last time in 2016-17 season . He got his money during spending frenzy and salary inflation in same year Biyombo got his contract.


Again, this is losing good, productive, valuable shooter over ... having nothing and nobody to replace him, without any chance to flip him into anything better. Him walking for nothing would be disaster.
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Re: Wing depth 2020 [Fournier edition] 

Post#18 » by jezzerinho » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:25 pm

jezzerinho wrote:First off, terrific thread and great summary.

We want Evan to opt in, so he becomes an asset and not a sunk cost for not having traded him before.

I have real doubts about his and Vic's ability to coexist. The principal result of buddy all seems to have been that one player has a great year while the other plays below par and the following year it reverses. We never really get FIBA-Fournier and the Vuc of this season's playoffs at the same time.

I'd be looking for a S&T of Evan, even acknowledging we won't get back a player who can give us similar equivalent production in the short term.

CJ would be very interesting for us as the exception to that, Ia trade with other assets. He could really coexist with Fultz and maybe replace Markelle if we don't get the expected improvement.

Solutions in the draft? I think we need a primary initiating option way more than a "shooter". I'd be prepared to look at PGs/Combos/SGs and SFs to find one.

I think at 15 Orlando will go Maledon if it's a guard or maybe Saddiq Bey as a SF.

I personally would be looking at Terry, Anthony, Maxey and also Bey of the guys projected around our pick. I like Maledon's game a lot but he's way too introverted as a person and a player to fill the need we have of a leader and shot creator.
Lewis lacks craft and touch at getting to the rim in traffic. Hampton is a total shot in the dark. Getting Anthony at 15 I think is buying low on him as a long term bet. Like his personality, basketball heritage, aggression, handle and shooting form. Not wild on his playmaking and BBIQ.

Bolmaro is so boom and bust I have trouble getting behind him. He shows some awesome flashes but his shooting is a lottery and there's a lack of consistency in his game, albeit on limited minutes.

Finally, if we could get someone out of a Gordon and/or Ross and/or Aminu and/or Bamba trade, who could be that primary option and creator, I may even be able to swallow Evan staying in as a starter.


Forgot to add Jay Scrubb as a real wildcard pick. Raw as hell but a lot to like tools-wise, SG/SF type with OK two-handed handle, elite hops, good touch at the rim, finishes with both hands, some floater game, flashes of passing ability, but certainly good 3-level scorer potential. Hard to find defensive video, but Stepien say he's not very engaged.

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