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Aaron Gordon - In or Out?

Moderators: Howard Mass, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro, SOUL, Def Swami, UCFJayBird

Is Aaron Gordon a Building Block for Magic

Yes, Keep him, he still has potential
15
25%
No, Trade him, we know what he is
44
75%
 
Total votes: 59

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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#161 » by UnFadeable21 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:02 am

pepe1991 wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
How do you know trading AG wouldn’t bring a somewhat decent return? I’ve already explained why teams would possibly be willing to give up more this offseason.

This is the issue with Orlando and it’s fans. They are too afraid to make changes because they fear “missing the playoffs”... We aren’t “risking” anything.

I could literally care less about seeing a first round exit team AGAIN at the expense of draft position and trade value. Most outsiders, and informed fans, looking at Orlando’s situation all say the same thing - “it’s time that they start making decisions on some of these guys”. AG, Fournier, and Vuc ARE those guys... whether fans want to believe it or not. This FO is not going to trade Isaac and Bamba. It’s not happening. They wouldn’t move on from their only acquisitions at the expense of AG and Fournier.

I’ll repeat, it does NOT take 7 years to build a roster. It doesn’t take a FO 4 years to choose a direction. People might have a case if this team was going into the season healthy with Okeke as an X-factor accompanied with a rookie, Fultz, Isaac, and Bamba. The rest? We already know who they are and what they do. The realistic result of this team next season is what happened this season minus DJ and Isaac.. no thanks.

Isaac is out, so instead of “playoffs or bust” the FO should actually make some decisions and plan something for once.


You sir are correct. A competent front office can do a compete rebuild in about two seasons.

Look at the Timberwolves for example, in one year, they got rid of Wiggins 5 year 147 million contract, Gorgui 2 year 30 million and Jeff Teague 19 million.

We went from an 8th seed team with no future to now with much higher upside. We tanked this season and now have the number 1 pick along with two young all stars.

The Orlando Magic need to tank the 2020 season, clean their books and stock pile draft picks and in 2021, they could be a real contending team with continuous upside.

Fultz
Isaac
Pick 15
Last year of Vuc

And cap space and draft picks to spend in 2021.


Without any desire to insult you, you guys are team that every other team should look and learn what to not do.
Regular Minessota T wolves fan who is now 17 years old lived through 1 playoff Minessota run in his entire life.

And even today, on paper your team isn't that bad ( Towns, D'angelo, Beasley) but let's not fool anybody, you were still trash. 19-45 record says it all. Among your best 3 players, not a single one can defend anybody. Especially Russell who is like wet paper on defense. And player who supposed to be defensive anchor by default, and position he plays, Towns, is as bad defensive center as you get.

Towns currently ranks 405 of 513 players in NBA.com’s defensive win shares, and has an awful 115.4 defensive rating. That means a starting lineup of five Towns would yield 115 points to any opponent. The Wolves are actually a minus 2.2 points per 100 possessions with KAT on the court, according to Basketball-Reference.


So no, you don't rebuild team in two years, your rebuild started in 2004 and is yet to show any progress other than one year rental of Jimmy Butler who couldn't stand your former 1# picks Towns and Wiggins. You are still going nowhere.

Only reason why your players look like stars is :
a) playing for nothing but personal stats ( Wiggins, Beasley, Towns)
b) pushing pace ( 4th in pace)

And there is some hope that some nba coach could turn Towns into positive contributor on playoff team ( looking at only playoff run he had, it's a streach, but maybe) however, it's almost 2021, not a single team will ever pass first round with 30% usage rate of center. It's just different era.
Just like not a single team can survive in playoffs with Russell being exposed every single possession in pick&roll, especially when Towns should be there to "save " him, yet he can't even hold his own on that side.

We went from an 8th seed team with no future to now with much higher upside. We tanked this season and now have the number 1 pick along with two young all stars.

You went from having Jimmy Butler carring your a*** to playoffs to worst record over 2 years without salray cap until 2023.

You guys ending up with 1# pick, just to relise nobody that year is even worth lottery selection is most ironic outcome of "building through draft only" strategy. At least you don't pay Wiggins any more... I guess that's something. But i won't pretend D'angelo is much better. Empty calory 17 ppg on 52% TS for career with 0,3 BPM and negative net rating for career... If he played on Pistons and Cavs and not Nets and Lakers, he would be called Ish Smith.



This is all wrong. We just got a new entire regime here last season. This is year 2 of the new rebuild with new players, new coaches, front office, new stadium, jerseys everything.

When Jimmy Butler was here; the Wolves were a 3rd seed in the west. He went down with sprained MCL and we fell down to the 8th.

Wolves didn’t trade Butler because we wanted too, he wanted out because wigs and towns both got the 5 year max over him so we had to deal him. In the end we got decent value for him.

Timberwolves traded Jimmy Butler for Robert Covington & Dario Saric & the 17th pick.

Wolves were a .500 team post trade then Roco who is our verison of Isaac got hurt and the season was lost.

Covington was traded for Houston’s 2020 1st — and that pick was traded for Malik Beasley and Juancho Hernangomez. Saric & Wolves 11 Pick traded for 6th Pick.

So No. 17 + Beasley, Hernangomez, and Culver for Jimmy Butler.

Better than the Sixers who only got a Josh Richardson for him.

As for Towns and DLo. They may have their defensive flaws but there’s no denying their talent. Towns shoots 50 from the field, 40 from 3 and is a 20-10 machine. He’s only 24 years old and already a two time all star.

As for DLo, he’s on the same level as Jamal Murray. He was the Net’s number 1 option and took them to the playoffs. He’s only 24 as well and an all star. He has the skills to drop 40-50 pts in a game.

The 19-45 season was a pure tank. We dumped all our long term contracts at the trade deadline and picked up a bunch of rookies and expirings. The only two expensive deals we have on the roster is our two key pieces. Our two max players who are both 24 and former all stars. That’s what a franchise is suppose to do.

We now have two max young all stars and pick 1, 17, 33. Pretty solid base for a mid market team to build for the future.

Thanks for the debate bro.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#162 » by Xatticus » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:21 am

pepe1991 wrote:I really don't see nba team that gives away lottery pick to add career 12,8 ppg, 6,4 rpg, 2,4 apg , 53% TS, 0,1 BPM player who spent 6 years and played over 400 games in nba. Upside isn't there. He is role player and distant 3rd option on very average team.
On top of that he isn't really cheap. For next year he makes over $18 000 000.

Bad teams simply do not have additional $18M in one player to throw away. Most teams in lottery are by default, young, upcomming teams with lot of garbage players on bad contracts and rookie scale contract players.
This 2020 draft class is as bad as it gets, yet if you look at landscape, there is almost no way any team is giving up top 8 pick get Gordon for few reasons:

1) not having matching returning value
2) not valuing Gordon that high
3) not needing Gordon


Let's go through some teams and return value of potential trade that includes pick:

1) T wolves. James Jones and pick. That's literally it. In any other scenario T wolves need to include 5 players just to get Gordon to match salary. It simply won't happen. Or they have to draft player, sign him and then trade him. And even if they do that ( 8,5M on 1st pick for year 1 is guaranteed money) they AGAIN have to add 2 different players ( Culver, Layman) or once again James Jones and 1st pick (signed) but in that scenario Magic have to add peace to match salary.
It's too complicated and return value is questionable. P

2) Warriors Once again same scenario, if you are not adding low cost player ( Birch) and making straight up trade for Draymoond Green, this team isn't trade partner. Gordon and Evan for Looney, pick and Wiggins is actually horrific trade for Magic. Magic get probably the worst contract in basketball, pick that nobody has any idea who to pick and journeyman. Wiggins salary kills any flexibility for years to come.

3) Hornets

It's Rozier and pick for Gordon or Zeller, pick for Gordon and Birch.
Or some Batum incldued trade that once again ships both Gordon, Evan and Birch. At least this trade ( much like James Jones one) helps with salary. But Magic lose 3 role players for pick and salary cap next year. Maybe? I mean team is instant tank-bound for next year with this.

4) Bulls.
Don't need PF. Simply not even worth exploring.

5) Cavs. Have virtually nothing worth trading. Gordon for Nance and Exum? I'll pass

From now on, Edwards, Wiseman, Ball, Avidija Hayer or Torpinn are gone and whole concept of trading for pick makes less sense.


6. Hawks. Don't need PF with Capella and Collins. Other trade ideas makes little to no sense.

7. Pistons Snell and Derrick Rose. But why trade for Gordon while having Griffin? This team has nothing else that would match salary.

8. Knicks Pretty much Randle for Gordon and picks swap. Don't see much difference drafting 8th of 15 in this draft tbh.

9.Wizards They have virtually nothing to make trade possible. Ism Smith, Hachimura and Thomas Bryant? Would Wizards even do that? Could simply pay Bertans .

10. Suns off record, offered Šarić new contract. Probably not interested in trade in this moment other than once again, doing same, already declined, Oubre swap.


So i really don't understand where this idea that Magic have to demand pick in Gordon return comes from. He is neither that valuable, nor cheap nor attractive for tanking teams. He is 25 years old role player.


I don't care how you try to rationalize away Gordon's value. If a team wants him, they have to offer something enticing. The proposals you have put forward do absolutely nothing for Orlando. Labeling someone a "role player" means nothing. Just about everyone is a role player. Everyone on Orlando's roster is a role player, but that says nothing of the value of each player. Gordon is one of our most valuable pieces right now. Dumping him only makes sense if the goal is to tank for a better pick. Otherwise, we have to get value in return.

I think perhaps you are under the impression that Orlando gets better just by moving Gordon? I just don't understand the proposals you have made. It's not our front office's concern to consider what value Gordon has to a tanking team. It's their concern to do what is in the best interests of the Orlando Magic. They should trade Gordon if and only if it serves this purpose. Right now, if their goal is to make the playoffs, then they have to get someone that helps them on the court, because Gordon makes this team better. Oubre doesn't do this. Therefore, a swap for Oubre would require additional value for Orlando to even consider it.

I don't want to make this a long-winded post about Oubre's value, but his lineups have consistently underperformed. I dig into lineup data a lot. I like the new ON/OFF portion of RAPTOR, because it essentially saves a lot of that work. Basically, if those numbers are positive, then the lineups have performed better than expected based on who the player has shared the floor with. If those numbers are negative, then that player's lineups have performed worse than expected based on who the player shared the floor with. The goal isn't to put five independent pieces on the floor and then sum their stat lines. The goal is to put five guys on the floor that consistently outscore the opposition. Oubre has a -27 plus/minus on the season even though Rubio (+147) and Booker (+130) are the players he has shared the floor with the most this year. This is why Oubre has a -2.5 ON/OFF. Oubre and Booker had a -2 plus/minus in 1471 minutes this year. That accounts for 59% of Booker's minutes. He was +132 in 1041 minutes when Oubre wasn't on the floor with him. If you are Phoenix, this is a problem. In isolation, you could dismiss this data, but Oubre lineups have consistently done poorly. He just isn't good.

Coincidentally, this is also why I'm certain that Fournier sucks. His net differentials have consistently been worse than the players he shares the floor with the most. You can easily look this stuff up year by year. Vucevic is better than Gordon who is better than Fournier. Payton was also clearly better than Fournier up until his final season with the Magic, for what that's worth. The data is pretty clear. Interestingly though, it didn't become obvious that Vucevic was better than our other center flotsam until his age-26 season. I say it is interesting because you keep making the point about how Gordon is what he is, yet Vucevic didn't become anything resembling what he is until he was older than Gordon is now. At age 25, Gordon clearly has the better resume. That doesn't mean Gordon will become something better than what Vucevic is now. Some players never get any better from the moment they enter the league while others continue to improve into their 30s.

This is also why it annoys me when you make declarations about young players like Bamba. At Bamba's age, Vucevic was terrible. He had more impressive per game numbers because our organization was committed to developing the youth that they acquired in the Howard trade, but we got crushed when Vucevic was on the floor that year (-8.3 netrtg). That team wasn't bereft of talent (Nelson, Redick, Harris, Afflalo), but it lost a lot because we forced guys like Vucevic and Harkless into the rotation. That's fine. Neither of those guys would be the players they are today if they weren't afforded the opportunities to develop. It was correct for us to focus on the long term at that point in time. Unfortunately, the same should be true today. We do not have the assets to compete right now. Our front office is rather schizophrenic though. They failed to tank when tanking might've paid off. Then they drafted a center with a high-value pick before locking in Vucevic to a fat new contract. The message is incoherent.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#163 » by pepe1991 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:36 am

UnFadeable21 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:
You sir are correct. A competent front office can do a compete rebuild in about two seasons.

Look at the Timberwolves for example, in one year, they got rid of Wiggins 5 year 147 million contract, Gorgui 2 year 30 million and Jeff Teague 19 million.

We went from an 8th seed team with no future to now with much higher upside. We tanked this season and now have the number 1 pick along with two young all stars.

The Orlando Magic need to tank the 2020 season, clean their books and stock pile draft picks and in 2021, they could be a real contending team with continuous upside.

Fultz
Isaac
Pick 15
Last year of Vuc

And cap space and draft picks to spend in 2021.


Without any desire to insult you, you guys are team that every other team should look and learn what to not do.
Regular Minessota T wolves fan who is now 17 years old lived through 1 playoff Minessota run in his entire life.

And even today, on paper your team isn't that bad ( Towns, D'angelo, Beasley) but let's not fool anybody, you were still trash. 19-45 record says it all. Among your best 3 players, not a single one can defend anybody. Especially Russell who is like wet paper on defense. And player who supposed to be defensive anchor by default, and position he plays, Towns, is as bad defensive center as you get.

Towns currently ranks 405 of 513 players in NBA.com’s defensive win shares, and has an awful 115.4 defensive rating. That means a starting lineup of five Towns would yield 115 points to any opponent. The Wolves are actually a minus 2.2 points per 100 possessions with KAT on the court, according to Basketball-Reference.


So no, you don't rebuild team in two years, your rebuild started in 2004 and is yet to show any progress other than one year rental of Jimmy Butler who couldn't stand your former 1# picks Towns and Wiggins. You are still going nowhere.

Only reason why your players look like stars is :
a) playing for nothing but personal stats ( Wiggins, Beasley, Towns)
b) pushing pace ( 4th in pace)

And there is some hope that some nba coach could turn Towns into positive contributor on playoff team ( looking at only playoff run he had, it's a streach, but maybe) however, it's almost 2021, not a single team will ever pass first round with 30% usage rate of center. It's just different era.
Just like not a single team can survive in playoffs with Russell being exposed every single possession in pick&roll, especially when Towns should be there to "save " him, yet he can't even hold his own on that side.

We went from an 8th seed team with no future to now with much higher upside. We tanked this season and now have the number 1 pick along with two young all stars.

You went from having Jimmy Butler carring your a*** to playoffs to worst record over 2 years without salray cap until 2023.

You guys ending up with 1# pick, just to relise nobody that year is even worth lottery selection is most ironic outcome of "building through draft only" strategy. At least you don't pay Wiggins any more... I guess that's something. But i won't pretend D'angelo is much better. Empty calory 17 ppg on 52% TS for career with 0,3 BPM and negative net rating for career... If he played on Pistons and Cavs and not Nets and Lakers, he would be called Ish Smith.



This is all wrong.

When Jimmy Butler was here; the Wolves were a 3rd seed in the west. He went down with sprained MCL and we fell down to the 8th.

Wolves didn’t trade Butler because we wanted too, he wanted out because wigs and towns both got the 5 year max over him so we had to deal him. In the end we got decent value for him.

Timberwolves traded Jimmy Butler for Robert Covington & Dario Saric & the 17th pick.

Wolves were a .500 team post trade then Roco who is our verison of Isaac got hurt and the season was lost.

Covington was traded for Houston’s 2020 1st — and that pick was traded for Malik Beasley and Juancho Hernangomez. Saric & Wolves 11 Pick traded for 6th Pick.

So No. 17 + Beasley, Hernangomez, and Culver for Jimmy Butler.

Better than the Sixers who only got a Josh Richardson for him.

As for Towns and DLo. They may have their defensive flaws but there’s no denying their talent. Towns shoots 50 from the field, 40 from 3 and is a 20-10 machine. He’s only 24 years old and already a two time all star.

As for DLo, he’s on the same level as Jamal Murray. He was the Net’s number 1 option and took them to the playoffs. He’s only 24 as well and an all star. He has the skills to drop 40-50 pts in a game.

The 19-45 season was a pure tank. We dumped all our long term contracts at the trade deadline and picked up a bunch of rookies and expirings. The only two expensive deals we have on the roster is our two key pieces. Our two max players who are both 24 and former all stars. That’s what a franchise is suppose to do.

We now have two max young all stars and pick 1, 17, 33. Pretty solid base for a mid market team to build for the future.

Thanks for the debate bro.


Bro... Stop

Image

Point to me period where you were good. With Butler you were first round exit as 8th seed.

Next year at very best you are 8th to 9th seed. But in reality most likley 9th to 11th. You are not better than LAL, LAC, Nuggets, Jazz, Rockets nor Mavericks. You probably aren't even as good as Memphis nor Suns. Warriors are back, Spurs.

You said you tanked and therfore your record is that bad? Ok... So how do you explain playing Wiggins and Towns +35min basically every other night during steak of 11 Ls in a row that threw your whole season on start of 2020?
No man, i understand being fan of bad team hurts feelings and you need defensive mechinsm "we didn't sucked, we tanked" to feel better, but that simply is not a case. Your team is very, very bad basketball team for better part of last 2 decades. Actually even more, there was period of time where you could have had prime Ray Allen and prime KG for basically +10 years, yet your front office made " blockbuster" trade for ... Stephon Marbury... Your team also wasted golden oportunity to draft both Curry and Klay, instad you ended up with Fylnn and Derick Williams. And this is nothing new, instad of mediocrity named Chriss Dunn you left Murray, Sabonis and Hield on the table...


Overall, without any desire to be harsh, your team is objectively is team that botched most high draft picks in nba history, by wide margin. Now you are building team around center who can't defend, PG who can't defend and guy who used to be Nuggets backup. And 1# pick that you allegedly tanked for, yet now, can't trade... :dontknow:
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#164 » by UnFadeable21 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:15 am

pepe1991 wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Without any desire to insult you, you guys are team that every other team should look and learn what to not do.
Regular Minessota T wolves fan who is now 17 years old lived through 1 playoff Minessota run in his entire life.

And even today, on paper your team isn't that bad ( Towns, D'angelo, Beasley) but let's not fool anybody, you were still trash. 19-45 record says it all. Among your best 3 players, not a single one can defend anybody. Especially Russell who is like wet paper on defense. And player who supposed to be defensive anchor by default, and position he plays, Towns, is as bad defensive center as you get.



So no, you don't rebuild team in two years, your rebuild started in 2004 and is yet to show any progress other than one year rental of Jimmy Butler who couldn't stand your former 1# picks Towns and Wiggins. You are still going nowhere.

Only reason why your players look like stars is :
a) playing for nothing but personal stats ( Wiggins, Beasley, Towns)
b) pushing pace ( 4th in pace)

And there is some hope that some nba coach could turn Towns into positive contributor on playoff team ( looking at only playoff run he had, it's a streach, but maybe) however, it's almost 2021, not a single team will ever pass first round with 30% usage rate of center. It's just different era.
Just like not a single team can survive in playoffs with Russell being exposed every single possession in pick&roll, especially when Towns should be there to "save " him, yet he can't even hold his own on that side.


You went from having Jimmy Butler carring your a*** to playoffs to worst record over 2 years without salray cap until 2023.

You guys ending up with 1# pick, just to relise nobody that year is even worth lottery selection is most ironic outcome of "building through draft only" strategy. At least you don't pay Wiggins any more... I guess that's something. But i won't pretend D'angelo is much better. Empty calory 17 ppg on 52% TS for career with 0,3 BPM and negative net rating for career... If he played on Pistons and Cavs and not Nets and Lakers, he would be called Ish Smith.



This is all wrong.

When Jimmy Butler was here; the Wolves were a 3rd seed in the west. He went down with sprained MCL and we fell down to the 8th.

Wolves didn’t trade Butler because we wanted too, he wanted out because wigs and towns both got the 5 year max over him so we had to deal him. In the end we got decent value for him.

Timberwolves traded Jimmy Butler for Robert Covington & Dario Saric & the 17th pick.

Wolves were a .500 team post trade then Roco who is our verison of Isaac got hurt and the season was lost.

Covington was traded for Houston’s 2020 1st — and that pick was traded for Malik Beasley and Juancho Hernangomez. Saric & Wolves 11 Pick traded for 6th Pick.

So No. 17 + Beasley, Hernangomez, and Culver for Jimmy Butler.

Better than the Sixers who only got a Josh Richardson for him.

As for Towns and DLo. They may have their defensive flaws but there’s no denying their talent. Towns shoots 50 from the field, 40 from 3 and is a 20-10 machine. He’s only 24 years old and already a two time all star.

As for DLo, he’s on the same level as Jamal Murray. He was the Net’s number 1 option and took them to the playoffs. He’s only 24 as well and an all star. He has the skills to drop 40-50 pts in a game.

The 19-45 season was a pure tank. We dumped all our long term contracts at the trade deadline and picked up a bunch of rookies and expirings. The only two expensive deals we have on the roster is our two key pieces. Our two max players who are both 24 and former all stars. That’s what a franchise is suppose to do.

We now have two max young all stars and pick 1, 17, 33. Pretty solid base for a mid market team to build for the future.

Thanks for the debate bro.


Bro... Stop

Image

Point to me period where you were good. With Butler you were first round exit as 8th seed.

Next year at very best you are 8th to 9th seed. But in reality most likley 9th to 11th. You are not better than LAL, LAC, Nuggets, Jazz, Rockets nor Mavericks. You probably aren't even as good as Memphis nor Suns. Warriors are back, Spurs.

You said you tanked and therfore your record is that bad? Ok... So how do you explain playing Wiggins and Towns +35min basically every other night during steak of 11 Ls in a row that threw your whole season on start of 2020?
No man, i understand being fan of bad team hurts feelings and you need defensive mechinsm "we didn't sucked, we tanked" to feel better, but that simply is not a case. Your team is very, very bad basketball team for better part of last 2 decades. Actually even more, there was period of time where you could have had prime Ray Allen and prime KG for basically +10 years, yet your front office made " blockbuster" trade for ... Stephon Marbury... Your team also wasted golden oportunity to draft both Curry and Klay, instad you ended up with Fylnn and Derick Williams. And this is nothing new, instad of mediocrity named Chriss Dunn you left Murray, Sabonis and Hield on the table...


Overall, without any desire to be harsh, your team is objectively is team that botched most high draft picks in nba history, by wide margin. Now you are building team around center who can't defend, PG who can't defend and guy who used to be Nuggets backup. And 1# pick that you allegedly tanked for, yet now, can't trade... :dontknow:


With Jimmy, the wolves were a top 4 seed, he got hurt and we fell to the 8th seed and beat the Nuggets in a play in game.

We traded Jimmy and our new team was Teague, Wiggins, Roco, Towns. It wasn’t going to be good enough to compete so we have a new Regime who rebuilt the team completely. Fans are actually quite happy. Better to build for real than be stuck in the middle. So we got rid of all our old guys and long term contracts except the two max guys and guys on rookie or minimum deals.p

Wolves are building a team like the Nuggets. Towns is our Jokic and DLo our Murray. Now we are trying to surround them with role players. Hoping Gordon could be our 4th player like Grant is for Denver.

Beasley is our verison of Terrance Ross and Will Barton. Spark plug scorer.

Now we need to find a 3rd guy that’s why they are shopping the 1st pick but I would be okay with Lamelo as I’m high on him.

As for the Magic, they need to find their two max guys who they can really build around too for the long term. All fans want to build a real contender that can really compete.

Good luck!
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#165 » by Bensational » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:08 am

I wonder if Vuc + Fournier + future pick/s could land us Paul George + Zubac/filler?

**EDIT. Old post inside***
Spoiler:
Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

Meanwhile, Clips look pretty well rounded:

Vuc/Noah
(Montrez)/Green
Kawhi/(Morris)
Fournier/LouWill
Pat Bev/Shamet

I'm not a George fan, but he's good in the regular season and good enough to carry us to the playoffs. He was once good enough to lead an ECF run, too. If the Clips feel like the Kawhi/George partnership isn't gonna work, that's a solid return which gives Kawhi a team which is closer to what he had in Toronto. Beyond Vuc and Fournier I'd be happy to include Ross, or Aminu, but would want to keep this year's draft pick. The Clips will be pick thirsty since they gave up so many to get him, so figuring out which ones we give up would be tricky.


I've re-thought this idea. What if it were a 3-way trade between ORL/LAC/IND?

ORL: George + Zubac
LAC: Vuc + Oladipo
IND: Fournier + Shamet

A Vuc/Oladipo reunion on a team with Kawhi would be a bit of bitter irony, but 'name-wise' that feels like a solid haul for George. Might need a lottery protected 1st + a top 20 protected 1st in there or something.

Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

I'd be excited for that team. George is good enough to carry that team to the playoffs whilst Fultz, Bamba and Okeke learn on the job. George took a similar team to the ECFs once before, and he might feel he's got something to prove now. I'd take the chance.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#166 » by Tarheel » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:52 am

Bensational wrote:I wonder if Vuc + Fournier + future pick/s could land us Paul George + Zubac/filler?

**EDIT. Old post inside***
Spoiler:
Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

Meanwhile, Clips look pretty well rounded:

Vuc/Noah
(Montrez)/Green
Kawhi/(Morris)
Fournier/LouWill
Pat Bev/Shamet

I'm not a George fan, but he's good in the regular season and good enough to carry us to the playoffs. He was once good enough to lead an ECF run, too. If the Clips feel like the Kawhi/George partnership isn't gonna work, that's a solid return which gives Kawhi a team which is closer to what he had in Toronto. Beyond Vuc and Fournier I'd be happy to include Ross, or Aminu, but would want to keep this year's draft pick. The Clips will be pick thirsty since they gave up so many to get him, so figuring out which ones we give up would be tricky.


I've re-thought this idea. What if it were a 3-way trade between ORL/LAC/IND?

ORL: George + Zubac
LAC: Vuc + Oladipo
IND: Fournier + Shamet

A Vuc/Oladipo reunion on a team with Kawhi would be a bit of bitter irony, but 'name-wise' that feels like a solid haul for George. Might need a lottery protected 1st + a top 20 protected 1st in there or something.

Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

I'd be excited for that team. George is good enough to carry that team to the playoffs whilst Fultz, Bamba and Okeke learn on the job. George took a similar team to the ECFs once before, and he might feel he's got something to prove now. I'd take the chance.


I don't think the Clips would trade PG at this juncture unless he demanded out (unlikely as he has spent ages working to get to LA) or there are significant locker room issues. They scapegoated Doc this season so don't think either of their big 2 get moved unless they fail again next year.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#167 » by Bensational » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:40 am

Tarheel wrote:
Spoiler:
Bensational wrote:I wonder if Vuc + Fournier + future pick/s could land us Paul George + Zubac/filler?

**EDIT. Old post inside***
[spoiler]Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

Meanwhile, Clips look pretty well rounded:

Vuc/Noah
(Montrez)/Green
Kawhi/(Morris)
Fournier/LouWill
Pat Bev/Shamet

I'm not a George fan, but he's good in the regular season and good enough to carry us to the playoffs. He was once good enough to lead an ECF run, too. If the Clips feel like the Kawhi/George partnership isn't gonna work, that's a solid return which gives Kawhi a team which is closer to what he had in Toronto. Beyond Vuc and Fournier I'd be happy to include Ross, or Aminu, but would want to keep this year's draft pick. The Clips will be pick thirsty since they gave up so many to get him, so figuring out which ones we give up would be tricky.


I've re-thought this idea. What if it were a 3-way trade between ORL/LAC/IND?

ORL: George + Zubac
LAC: Vuc + Oladipo
IND: Fournier + Shamet

A Vuc/Oladipo reunion on a team with Kawhi would be a bit of bitter irony, but 'name-wise' that feels like a solid haul for George. Might need a lottery protected 1st + a top 20 protected 1st in there or something.

Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

I'd be excited for that team. George is good enough to carry that team to the playoffs whilst Fultz, Bamba and Okeke learn on the job. George took a similar team to the ECFs once before, and he might feel he's got something to prove now. I'd take the chance.
[/spoiler]

I don't think the Clips would trade PG at this juncture unless he demanded out (unlikely as he has spent ages working to get to LA) or there are significant locker room issues. They scapegoated Doc this season so don't think either of their big 2 get moved unless they fail again next year.


Good point! Youre right, they've got another season at least.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#168 » by MagicMatic » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:58 am

Bensational wrote:I wonder if Vuc + Fournier + future pick/s could land us Paul George + Zubac/filler?

**EDIT. Old post inside***
Spoiler:
Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

Meanwhile, Clips look pretty well rounded:

Vuc/Noah
(Montrez)/Green
Kawhi/(Morris)
Fournier/LouWill
Pat Bev/Shamet

I'm not a George fan, but he's good in the regular season and good enough to carry us to the playoffs. He was once good enough to lead an ECF run, too. If the Clips feel like the Kawhi/George partnership isn't gonna work, that's a solid return which gives Kawhi a team which is closer to what he had in Toronto. Beyond Vuc and Fournier I'd be happy to include Ross, or Aminu, but would want to keep this year's draft pick. The Clips will be pick thirsty since they gave up so many to get him, so figuring out which ones we give up would be tricky.


I've re-thought this idea. What if it were a 3-way trade between ORL/LAC/IND?

ORL: George + Zubac
LAC: Vuc + Oladipo
IND: Fournier + Shamet

A Vuc/Oladipo reunion on a team with Kawhi would be a bit of bitter irony, but 'name-wise' that feels like a solid haul for George. Might need a lottery protected 1st + a top 20 protected 1st in there or something.

Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

I'd be excited for that team. George is good enough to carry that team to the playoffs whilst Fultz, Bamba and Okeke learn on the job. George took a similar team to the ECFs once before, and he might feel he's got something to prove now. I'd take the chance.


This is confusing. Clippers aren’t moving on from Paul George after trading away all their assets for him, especially not to Orlando.

Why post this in a thread about moving on from AG without including AG? Clippers might have assets that could be explored, but PG isn’t one of them we could even afford.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#169 » by Bensational » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:07 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Bensational wrote:I wonder if Vuc + Fournier + future pick/s could land us Paul George + Zubac/filler?

**EDIT. Old post inside***
Spoiler:
Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

Meanwhile, Clips look pretty well rounded:

Vuc/Noah
(Montrez)/Green
Kawhi/(Morris)
Fournier/LouWill
Pat Bev/Shamet

I'm not a George fan, but he's good in the regular season and good enough to carry us to the playoffs. He was once good enough to lead an ECF run, too. If the Clips feel like the Kawhi/George partnership isn't gonna work, that's a solid return which gives Kawhi a team which is closer to what he had in Toronto. Beyond Vuc and Fournier I'd be happy to include Ross, or Aminu, but would want to keep this year's draft pick. The Clips will be pick thirsty since they gave up so many to get him, so figuring out which ones we give up would be tricky.


I've re-thought this idea. What if it were a 3-way trade between ORL/LAC/IND?

ORL: George + Zubac
LAC: Vuc + Oladipo
IND: Fournier + Shamet

A Vuc/Oladipo reunion on a team with Kawhi would be a bit of bitter irony, but 'name-wise' that feels like a solid haul for George. Might need a lottery protected 1st + a top 20 protected 1st in there or something.

Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

I'd be excited for that team. George is good enough to carry that team to the playoffs whilst Fultz, Bamba and Okeke learn on the job. George took a similar team to the ECFs once before, and he might feel he's got something to prove now. I'd take the chance.


This is confusing. Clippers aren’t moving on from Paul George after trading away all their assets for him, especially not to Orlando.

Why post this in a thread about moving on from AG without including AG? Clippers might have assets that could be explored, but PG isn’t one of them we could even afford.


I have friends who follow the Clips who seemed pretty adamant that the rift between Kawhi and PG after the playoffs was too big to repair or something, but seems like my mates were just overreacting.

Why is this a thread about moving on from AG, when it's a thread titled with a question about whether he's in or out? I was showing a team that had Gordon 'In' but playing alongside a different makeup. Whether we can afford George or not would depend on their need to move him, what they want in return, and what the rest of the market is prepared to pay. I think Vuc + Fournier is a pretty solid starting offer for a team that' built to contend now.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#170 » by MagicMatic » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:03 pm

Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Bensational wrote:I wonder if Vuc + Fournier + future pick/s could land us Paul George + Zubac/filler?

**EDIT. Old post inside***
Spoiler:
Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

Meanwhile, Clips look pretty well rounded:

Vuc/Noah
(Montrez)/Green
Kawhi/(Morris)
Fournier/LouWill
Pat Bev/Shamet

I'm not a George fan, but he's good in the regular season and good enough to carry us to the playoffs. He was once good enough to lead an ECF run, too. If the Clips feel like the Kawhi/George partnership isn't gonna work, that's a solid return which gives Kawhi a team which is closer to what he had in Toronto. Beyond Vuc and Fournier I'd be happy to include Ross, or Aminu, but would want to keep this year's draft pick. The Clips will be pick thirsty since they gave up so many to get him, so figuring out which ones we give up would be tricky.


I've re-thought this idea. What if it were a 3-way trade between ORL/LAC/IND?

ORL: George + Zubac
LAC: Vuc + Oladipo
IND: Fournier + Shamet

A Vuc/Oladipo reunion on a team with Kawhi would be a bit of bitter irony, but 'name-wise' that feels like a solid haul for George. Might need a lottery protected 1st + a top 20 protected 1st in there or something.

Bamba/Zubac
Gordon/Aminu
Okeke/Iwundu/(Isaac)
George/Ross
Fultz/(Lewis Jr/Terry)

I'd be excited for that team. George is good enough to carry that team to the playoffs whilst Fultz, Bamba and Okeke learn on the job. George took a similar team to the ECFs once before, and he might feel he's got something to prove now. I'd take the chance.


This is confusing. Clippers aren’t moving on from Paul George after trading away all their assets for him, especially not to Orlando.

Why post this in a thread about moving on from AG without including AG? Clippers might have assets that could be explored, but PG isn’t one of them we could even afford.


I have friends who follow the Clips who seemed pretty adamant that the rift between Kawhi and PG after the playoffs was too big to repair or something, but seems like my mates were just overreacting.

Why is this a thread about moving on from AG, when it's a thread titled with a question about whether he's in or out? I was showing a team that had Gordon 'In' but playing alongside a different makeup. Whether we can afford George or not would depend on their need to move him, what they want in return, and what the rest of the market is prepared to pay. I think Vuc + Fournier is a pretty solid starting offer for a team that' built to contend now.


Maybe. To be honest, I’m selling my Paul George stock. Dude is either injured or a complete no-show in every game that ever mattered.

That being said, I’d still welcome him to Orlando because we still have no star level player. That’s saying a lot.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#171 » by Bensational » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:13 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Maybe. To be honest, I’m selling my Paul George stock. Dude is either injured or a complete no-show in every game that ever mattered.

That being said, I’d still welcome him to Orlando because we still have no star level player. That’s saying a lot.


Lol, that about sums me up! At this point I'm so starved for change and big positive development I'm left considering options like Paul and Westbrook, just because... well, they're still far and away better than anyone we have, and also both probably in the top 5-10 players in the East conversation as well, and... See? This is what happens.

Though George is even still on another level compared to them, even if it's limbo.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#172 » by Bensational » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 am

Not sure if anyone here follows the Orlando Magic insta channel but they've been really pushing AG content lately. He's certainly a big part of the marketing for the team.

Doesn't mean anything if a deal comes along that meets our asking price. But could be a sign that he's more central to team plans than is generally assumed, and that the trade price for him will need to match accordingly.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#173 » by MagicMatic » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:24 am

Bensational wrote:Not sure if anyone here follows the Orlando Magic insta channel but they've been really pushing AG content lately. He's certainly a big part of the marketing for the team.

Doesn't mean anything if a deal comes along that meets our asking price. But could be a sign that he's more central to team plans than is generally assumed, and that the trade price for him will need to match accordingly.


It’s always annoyed me that he’s consistently been the “face” of the franchise and has never made an all star appearance. He’s never been truly deserving of being the poster boy for Orlando... nobody really has been. Outside of having the dunk competition stolen from him twice, I don’t know why this guy is always at the forefront of the Magic media.

Marketing decisions shouldn’t play a role in basketball personnel, but I’d be dense if I didn’t believe it carried some level of weight.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#174 » by pepe1991 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:22 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Bensational wrote:Not sure if anyone here follows the Orlando Magic insta channel but they've been really pushing AG content lately. He's certainly a big part of the marketing for the team.

Doesn't mean anything if a deal comes along that meets our asking price. But could be a sign that he's more central to team plans than is generally assumed, and that the trade price for him will need to match accordingly.


It’s always annoyed me that he’s consistently been the “face” of the franchise and has never made an all star appearance. He’s never been truly deserving of being the poster boy for Orlando... nobody really has been. Outside of having the dunk competition stolen from him twice, I don’t know why this guy is always at the forefront of the Magic media.

Marketing decisions shouldn’t play a role in basketball personnel, but I’d be dense if I didn’t believe it carried some level of weight.


Very high lottery pick, easy to show off in highlight videos, exiting to watch for casual fans, american...
For same reason why Shannon Brown was more popular player than somebody like Boris Diaw ,while never being shadow of player Diaw was. For similar reasons JR Smith is always one of most popular "not a star" players. Mf-er would dunk 360 in middle of a game... and also wrack any hope of passing first round with him because he would get high and drunk in middle of playoff series... but 360 dunk is 360 dunk :D
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#175 » by Bensational » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Bensational wrote:Not sure if anyone here follows the Orlando Magic insta channel but they've been really pushing AG content lately. He's certainly a big part of the marketing for the team.

Doesn't mean anything if a deal comes along that meets our asking price. But could be a sign that he's more central to team plans than is generally assumed, and that the trade price for him will need to match accordingly.


It’s always annoyed me that he’s consistently been the “face” of the franchise and has never made an all star appearance. He’s never been truly deserving of being the poster boy for Orlando... nobody really has been. Outside of having the dunk competition stolen from him twice, I don’t know why this guy is always at the forefront of the Magic media.

Marketing decisions shouldn’t play a role in basketball personnel, but I’d be dense if I didn’t believe it carried some level of weight.


Very high lottery pick, easy to show off in highlight videos, exiting to watch for casual fans, american...
For same reason why Shannon Brown was more popular player than somebody like Boris Diaw ,while never being shadow of player Diaw was. For similar reasons JR Smith is always one of most popular "not a star" players. Mf-er would dunk 360 in middle of a game... and also wrack any hope of passing first round with him because he would get high and drunk in middle of playoff series... but 360 dunk is 360 dunk :D


With Gordon they're leveraging off his dunk contest rep, and then showing him doing it in games as well. Not a bad approach if you're pitching to fans who want something fun to watch (and Orlando seems very casual). Without him it would be Fultz plays and then Vuc's 3 dunks of the season.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#176 » by Xatticus » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:27 am

Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
It’s always annoyed me that he’s consistently been the “face” of the franchise and has never made an all star appearance. He’s never been truly deserving of being the poster boy for Orlando... nobody really has been. Outside of having the dunk competition stolen from him twice, I don’t know why this guy is always at the forefront of the Magic media.

Marketing decisions shouldn’t play a role in basketball personnel, but I’d be dense if I didn’t believe it carried some level of weight.


Very high lottery pick, easy to show off in highlight videos, exiting to watch for casual fans, american...
For same reason why Shannon Brown was more popular player than somebody like Boris Diaw ,while never being shadow of player Diaw was. For similar reasons JR Smith is always one of most popular "not a star" players. Mf-er would dunk 360 in middle of a game... and also wrack any hope of passing first round with him because he would get high and drunk in middle of playoff series... but 360 dunk is 360 dunk :D


With Gordon they're leveraging off his dunk contest rep, and then showing him doing it in games as well. Not a bad approach if you're pitching to fans who want something fun to watch (and Orlando seems very casual). Without him it would be Fultz plays and then Vuc's 3 dunks of the season.


Stars aren't made by organizational marketing campaigns. They have data to work with. Gordon is probably promoted because he sells more gear.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#177 » by Bensational » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:16 am

Xatticus wrote:
Bensational wrote:
With Gordon they're leveraging off his dunk contest rep, and then showing him doing it in games as well. Not a bad approach if you're pitching to fans who want something fun to watch (and Orlando seems very casual). Without him it would be Fultz plays and then Vuc's 3 dunks of the season.


Stars aren't made by organizational marketing campaigns. They have data to work with. Gordon is probably promoted because he sells more gear.


Yeah I'm not trying to make a case they're marketing him as a star, just that how much he factors into their marketing might also factor into how they value him. If fielding a team that makes the playoffs, draws a crowd and turns a profit, he could be our most valuable piece in that regard. Trading him could compromise all three of those for WeHam unless the return is right.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#178 » by JF5 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:37 pm

AG has it all marketing wise... He's an exciting freak athlete making the freak play ever other game. Going to all-star weekend for a competition multiple times that people love watching more than the actual all-star game itself more often than not enhances his popularity. Also, helps having the prototypical jet body and that he is a very good looking man.

Put that next to Vucevic who has as much personality as a closed door its no comparison :lol:

Lol, this team really needs some star players
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#179 » by SHAQ32 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:12 am

AG is still young, on a good deal, and most importantly, is a Magic Guy.
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Re: Aaron Gordon - In or Out? 

Post#180 » by OrlandoDream » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:07 am

I just dont see us trading AG with Isaacs injury. We have still to see Isaac play a full season. Until he does that if he ever does, cant trade AG. Our offense is already subpar.
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