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2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk

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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#201 » by Max Power » Sun Nov 8, 2020 4:07 pm

Skybox, I like this deal for the Magic if they’re deciding to stay competitive. A Vuc/Hayward dynamic is definitely more appealing offensively. I think obviously our defense takes a major hit but something often does when re-tooling a roster. Being rid of Fournier and drafting a 2/3 replacement I believe will help this team. Obviously some shooting and athleticism in the draft takes priority in such a move. I’d actually be ok taking on Kanter at least on the short term. He’s a tough presence in the paint and it’s arguable we haven’t had that here since Dwight and Gortat.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#202 » by jonbob17 » Sun Nov 8, 2020 4:12 pm

Skybox wrote:I proposed elsewhere...

ORL sends Gordon and Fournier
BOS sends Gordon Hayward
...some BOS fans approved but wanted us to take back more money in Poirier(2.6) or Kanter (5m IF he opts in). I countered that they should throw in pick #30 if we did take back one of those guys we don't need or want.

I know that Hayward isn't 23 and has had injuries and makes way too much money. He's a legit star buried on a deep young team. I love the potential offensive dynamic between Hayward and Vuc. Fultz driving and kicking or finishing. Okeke spotting up, moving the ball, and playing great D (AG with a 3shot and without the highlight reels). Hayward has a few very good years left and, if he's interested in ORL, I'd happily make him the face and voice of our mostly young team. At #15, we target our scoring guard or wing. If we pull the #30 we take a swing at McDaniels or Bane or some other upside freebie or surprisingly still available guy. Hayward, Vuc, and Okeke bring that smart ball-movement "old man" ball. We add shooters and Fultz, Isaac, Bamba, Okeke can all taste some winning while developing.

Vuc/Bamba/whoever
Okeke/Aminu/Clark (ultimately Isaac)
Hayward/Ennis
TRoss/Maxey(Hampton, Bey, Nesmith, Bane?)
Fultz/MCW


When i look at Boston I would think they would be more interested in Vuc, but it does seem like they want/need to move Hayward. I think from the Magic's perspective, they would want to move Hayward on to a third team, with a pick and salary/players coming back to the magic.
I would really like Hayward here, he would be a really nice fit, but I mean if we sign him to an extension, we really skew the core of this team, with both Hayward and Vuc being over 30 and taking up a significant portion of our cap. It would be nice to have some good veterans around our young core, just not making $25M+ a year.

It's all about the Magic's existential crisis. Who are the Magic, and what is the FO's expectations of timing and altitude of our peak?
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#203 » by Knightro » Sun Nov 8, 2020 4:55 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Adding worst contract in basketball, and salary of second overall pick that stars on base of $7,6M without any clear idea who to pick is horrific.
Building team around Fultz ( can't shoot), Wiggins ( can't play basketball), Isaac ( can't stay on the floor ) , Bamba ( has stamina of WWII vet ), some Lamelo Ball/Okongwu/Toppin/Hayes/Haliburton is definition of team without present nor future.

Adding such a dead cup such as Wiggins is, in exchange for pretty much only above average player on roster, and losing Gordon ,who isn't great, but is far away from terrible simply makes no sense whatsoever.
To add who execlly? I ask this question for months and every single person avoids to repeat with clear answer.

So i ask you, Knightro, if Magic make that trade, you tell me who "saves" this team from 2020 draft pick, epsecially if Edwards is gone from table?
And don't even start about imaginary "superstar" from 2021 draft who is yet to step foot at college court. Nassir Little went from Kawhi Leonard pre-college comparisons to being Mario Hezonja's backup in NBA in 12 months. Draft net before season gave him at least 8/10 grade in 6 major categories they rank players ( 12 categories total). Year later you can probably buy him off for top 20 protected pick and stash of cash. So no, i don't wanna hear about tanking for some 18 years old "new Ben Simmons" ( who just happends to be 3 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter) or any of it. Straight answer. Who has at 2# slot chance to transform this team? If answer is nobody than trade for 3 years of missery called Wiggins - simply makes no sense.

Spoiler:
And for love of God don't say Hayes, guy has athletics of Andre Miller year before he retired. Guy couldn't craete space nor separation for his shots IN GERMANY ! Where Derick Williams looks like second comming of Lebron and Jordan combined in one player


Oh Pepe. Perpetually not be able to see the forest through the trees.

The Magic stayed as healthy as any team in the NBA two years ago. They got career years from multiple veteran players and managed to win all of 42 games leading to a first round gentleman's sweep.

This past year the Magic had a normal amount of injuries, the veterans didn't play over their heads like they did the year before and they were on pace to win 37 games in a normal 82 game schedule. This, once again, led to a gentleman's sweep in the first round.

So what is the path forward? I challenge you to give me literally one realistic way the Magic could improve their current roster to the point of getting out of the first round in either of the next two seasons.

You can't do it because it simply isn't possible.

They're over the salary cap, so they can't sign anyone of consequence. They don't have attractive trade assets, so they can't flip their current pieces for more talented pieces. They are picking 15th in the draft, so they're not in a position to draft a top talent.

The *only* hope the Magic have right now as things are currently constructed is to get incredibly lucky with one of those one in a 1000 chance longshot all-stars outside of the lottery like the Bucks did with Giannis or the Nuggets did with Jokic.

Literally no one (except you) is suggesting the Magic should or would "build" around Wiggins or even "build" around the 2nd pick in the 2020 draft either. They're both the means to an end.

The Magic would be grabbing another young player they would have for 5 cost controlled years *and* they would almost certainly make their team worse, which would directly lead to a higher draft pick in 2021.

Btw here's the committed salaries for the next three years

Wiggins + No. 2 Pick
2020-2021 = 37.2M
2021-2022 = 39.6M
2022-2023 = 42.0M

Vucevic + Gordon
2020-2021 = 44.1M
2021-2022 = 40.4M
2022-2023 = 20.0M

So the Magic actually *SAVE* 7.7M over the next two years before taking on 22M in year 3 (net addition of 14.3M in future salary), but that extra money would only be added to the Magic's salary if the Magic were to let Aaron Gordon walk away for nothing as a free agent in two years, which seems completely unlikely.

I know that I (and many others) am tired of watching the Magic grind out 35-40 wins, get drilled in the first round, and have zero path to get better.

You apparently aren't.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#204 » by Skybox » Sun Nov 8, 2020 5:20 pm

jonbob17 wrote:
Skybox wrote:I proposed elsewhere...

ORL sends Gordon and Fournier
BOS sends Gordon Hayward
...some BOS fans approved but wanted us to take back more money in Poirier(2.6) or Kanter (5m IF he opts in). I countered that they should throw in pick #30 if we did take back one of those guys we don't need or want.

I know that Hayward isn't 23 and has had injuries and makes way too much money. He's a legit star buried on a deep young team. I love the potential offensive dynamic between Hayward and Vuc. Fultz driving and kicking or finishing. Okeke spotting up, moving the ball, and playing great D (AG with a 3shot and without the highlight reels). Hayward has a few very good years left and, if he's interested in ORL, I'd happily make him the face and voice of our mostly young team. At #15, we target our scoring guard or wing. If we pull the #30 we take a swing at McDaniels or Bane or some other upside freebie or surprisingly still available guy. Hayward, Vuc, and Okeke bring that smart ball-movement "old man" ball. We add shooters and Fultz, Isaac, Bamba, Okeke can all taste some winning while developing.

Vuc/Bamba/whoever
Okeke/Aminu/Clark (ultimately Isaac)
Hayward/Ennis
TRoss/Maxey(Hampton, Bey, Nesmith, Bane?)
Fultz/MCW


When i look at Boston I would think they would be more interested in Vuc, but it does seem like they want/need to move Hayward. I think from the Magic's perspective, they would want to move Hayward on to a third team, with a pick and salary/players coming back to the magic.
I would really like Hayward here, he would be a really nice fit, but I mean if we sign him to an extension, we really skew the core of this team, with both Hayward and Vuc being over 30 and taking up a significant portion of our cap. It would be nice to have some good veterans around our young core, just not making $25M+ a year.

It's all about the Magic's existential crisis. Who are the Magic, and what is the FO's expectations of timing and altitude of our peak?


Agree...especially the last bit.

I really respect AG's defense, but I'm counting on Okeke filling in (and adding shooting) not to mention a healthy Aminu. Obviously, the bigger picture is the Minister of Defense returning next season. Hayward is a good, not great defender...so, overall, I'm not that concerned about Clifford being able to keep us a strong defensive unit. Depending on the terms (I know this is a huge detail), Hayward is a bona fide mid-level star. He, along with Vuc, will be All-Stars in the East next year on this plan. If Fultz continues to grow and develop that killer instinct he seems to be lacking, then there's a whole second wave along with Isaac. I'm feeling this is more of a Miami mindset...screw these 5 year plans, we should easily get 3 or 4 excellent years out of the duo of Vuc and Hayward. The supporting cast will determine our highest peak. Hayward's been a disappointment in BOS, but that's a whole different environment...review why he got the max deal in the first place. I believe he CAN step back into the driver's seat on a less-stacked team like ORL.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#205 » by Xatticus » Sun Nov 8, 2020 5:40 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:And under any condition Magic can't accept Wiggins + pick for Gordon and Vuc trade. It will be biggest disaster in team's history. This draft is type of draft where nobody projected to be lottery pick would not be lottery pick in 2018 draft and half of them would not even be first round selections. Second round pick only sounds good until you see draft board.


This is so over the top it's almost funny.

The Magic have a 35-40 win team with no tangible path to improve with the current pieces they have in place.

They can stubbornly stay the course and grind out one or two more 7-8 seeds if that's what they want to do, but that's all they can do with this roster.

Regardless of what you feel about tanking, and I know you're anti-tanking, any move that makes the Magic worse in the short-term almost certainly at least provides them an opportunity to be acquire better talent in the long-term.


Adding worst contract in basketball, and salary of second overall pick that stars on base of $7,6M without any clear idea who to pick is horrific.
Building team around Fultz ( can't shoot), Wiggins ( can't play basketball), Isaac ( can't stay on the floor ) , Bamba ( has stamina of WWII vet ), some Lamelo Ball/Okongwu/Toppin/Hayes/Haliburton is definition of team without present nor future.

Adding such a dead cup such as Wiggins is, in exchange for pretty much only above average player on roster, and losing Gordon ,who isn't great, but is far away from terrible simply makes no sense whatsoever.
To add who execlly? I ask this question for months and every single person avoids to repeat with clear answer.

So i ask you, Knightro, if Magic make that trade, you tell me who "saves" this team from 2020 draft pick, epsecially if Edwards is gone from table?
And don't even start about imaginary "superstar" from 2021 draft who is yet to step foot at college court. Nassir Little went from Kawhi Leonard pre-college comparisons to being Mario Hezonja's backup in NBA in 12 months. Draft net before season gave him at least 8/10 grade in 6 major categories they rank players ( 12 categories total). Year later you can probably buy him off for top 20 protected pick and stash of cash. So no, i don't wanna hear about tanking for some 18 years old "new Ben Simmons" ( who just happends to be 3 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter) or any of it. Straight answer. Who has at 2# slot chance to transform this team? If answer is nobody than trade for 3 years of missery called Wiggins - simply makes no sense.

Spoiler:
And for love of God don't say Hayes, guy has athletics of Andre Miller year before he retired. Guy couldn't craete space nor separation for his shots IN GERMANY ! Where Derick Williams looks like second comming of Lebron and Jordan combined in one player


I don't think it's good value for what we are giving up, but we need to make a substantive change to this roster. I'd expect we could get better value by dealing them separately and picking up whatever future assets we can get. Perhaps not. There might be no market for Vucevic whatsoever. If that's the case, we'd have to attach value to get him off the roster. I don't see a reason to give up both and take back Wiggins just to get a crack at... ? If Edwards is gone, the only other obviously high upside pick is Wiseman, but we already have Bamba. I really don't think GS wants to take back the extra salary regardless.

Wiggins doesn't have the worst contract in the NBA. It certainly isn't good, but there are quite a few that are more toxic. Horford, Westbrook, and Wall all have worse contracts.

Whatever we do... if we move either of Gordon or Vucevic, I'd like to move the other as well. Increasing the value of next year's pick is probably the clearest path towards a rebuild at this point. It seems pointless to me to move Gordon without moving Vucevic. My concern, however, is that a Clifford coached team has a floor of about 30 wins. He has had some **** rosters and never won fewer than 33. You can only lose so many games when you consistently win the rebounding and turnover battles. I think that speaks to how weak this current roster is. I think if we dumped Vucevic into Atlanta's cap space and took back Dedmon in return, we are still probably a 35-win team with Clifford at the helm.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#206 » by yoyojw17 » Sun Nov 8, 2020 6:44 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Adding worst contract in basketball, and salary of second overall pick that stars on base of $7,6M without any clear idea who to pick is horrific.
Building team around Fultz ( can't shoot), Wiggins ( can't play basketball), Isaac ( can't stay on the floor ) , Bamba ( has stamina of WWII vet ), some Lamelo Ball/Okongwu/Toppin/Hayes/Haliburton is definition of team without present nor future.

Adding such a dead cup such as Wiggins is, in exchange for pretty much only above average player on roster, and losing Gordon ,who isn't great, but is far away from terrible simply makes no sense whatsoever.
To add who execlly? I ask this question for months and every single person avoids to repeat with clear answer.

So i ask you, Knightro, if Magic make that trade, you tell me who "saves" this team from 2020 draft pick, epsecially if Edwards is gone from table?
And don't even start about imaginary "superstar" from 2021 draft who is yet to step foot at college court. Nassir Little went from Kawhi Leonard pre-college comparisons to being Mario Hezonja's backup in NBA in 12 months. Draft net before season gave him at least 8/10 grade in 6 major categories they rank players ( 12 categories total). Year later you can probably buy him off for top 20 protected pick and stash of cash. So no, i don't wanna hear about tanking for some 18 years old "new Ben Simmons" ( who just happends to be 3 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter) or any of it. Straight answer. Who has at 2# slot chance to transform this team? If answer is nobody than trade for 3 years of missery called Wiggins - simply makes no sense.

Spoiler:
And for love of God don't say Hayes, guy has athletics of Andre Miller year before he retired. Guy couldn't craete space nor separation for his shots IN GERMANY ! Where Derick Williams looks like second comming of Lebron and Jordan combined in one player


Oh Pepe. Perpetually not be able to see the forest through the trees.

The Magic stayed as healthy as any team in the NBA two years ago. They got career years from multiple veteran players and managed to win all of 42 games leading to a first round gentleman's sweep.

This past year the Magic had a normal amount of injuries, the veterans didn't play over their heads like they did the year before and they were on pace to win 37 games in a normal 82 game schedule. This, once again, led to a gentleman's sweep in the first round.

So what is the path forward? I challenge you to give me literally one realistic way the Magic could improve their current roster to the point of getting out of the first round in either of the next two seasons.

You can't do it because it simply isn't possible.

They're over the salary cap, so they can't sign anyone of consequence. They don't have attractive trade assets, so they can't flip their current pieces for more talented pieces. They are picking 15th in the draft, so they're not in a position to draft a top talent.

The *only* hope the Magic have right now as things are currently constructed is to get incredibly lucky with one of those one in a 1000 chance longshot all-stars outside of the lottery like the Bucks did with Giannis or the Nuggets did with Jokic.

Literally no one (except you) is suggesting the Magic should or would "build" around Wiggins or even "build" around the 2nd pick in the 2020 draft either. They're both the means to an end.

The Magic would be grabbing another young player they would have for 5 cost controlled years *and* they would almost certainly make their team worse, which would directly lead to a higher draft pick in 2021.

Btw here's the committed salaries for the next three years

Wiggins + No. 2 Pick
2020-2021 = 37.2M
2021-2022 = 39.6M
2022-2023 = 42.0M

Vucevic + Gordon
2020-2021 = 44.1M
2021-2022 = 40.4M
2022-2023 = 20.0M

So the Magic actually *SAVE* 7.7M over the next two years before taking on 22M in year 3 (net addition of 14.3M in future salary), but that extra money would only be added to the Magic's salary if the Magic were to let Aaron Gordon walk away for nothing as a free agent in two years, which seems completely unlikely.

I know that I (and many others) am tired of watching the Magic grind out 35-40 wins, get drilled in the first round, and have zero path to get better.

You apparently aren't.

Agree with a lot that you said. But I won't say that there is zero path to improvement even with the currently constructed. We did great down the stretch of the year... things were clicking... and injuries to some important components existed going into the playoffs... including some of our core players and future risers in AG, JI and Bamba. Aminu has been injured all season. Between him, AG and JI... we missed the 3 players that could have helped us drastically against Giannis in the 1st round. Instead we had two players that would have probably not sniffed a 9 man rotation.

Needless to say... our last 3 draft picks... which are important to the trajectory of the team included 2 players that came in with physical limitations with high ceilings once things come to fruition. We saw what a stronger body and mentality did for JI, but injury struck its ugly head.

Bamba came back with Covid complications (can't judge the rest of his career off of that... would be ludicrous to do so)... but the guy in the few minutes we saw him play was throwing his added weight around and was the initiator of contact and no longer shying away from it. That to me was a huge win.

Then in the last draft, we took a talented player with an injury. So it's all about perspective.

For me, the future is bright with those three.... but if someone is just going to be generally negative because they look at their current stats or situations... you MIGHT be overlooking a lot of potentials.

And if you want to throw in Fultz as a draft.... the guy went through physical and mental grind for over a year and came back healthy last year... showing flashes of his talent, while being probably coddled and restricted by management... and to me that was smart of them. Next season... i think he will be given the keys to the team and will see an uptick in his usage which in my opinion would change to change in playing style that would lead to more success.

The organization is willing to make moves that need some patience... which can sometimes run against the grain for many fans... leading to premature expectations...wants and decisions. Just saying.... if taking extreme "negative outlooks" of players (kinda like pepe's statements) ... the projected outlook of the team can be heavily skewed from reality.

Needless to say i was not even a huge fan of Wiggins.... but seeing him in a different environment (GS).... I have a better outlook on him. Not like a HUGE fan to the point that i would do anything to get him.... but if the team likes something at #2 and taking on that player is needed... I would have no problem as i can see him being a better all-around player... though the contract is steep.

so... IF the organization has faith in Bamba that we as fans don't get to experience and understand ... and think that he can become a starter.... then Vuc can be used for upgrades that will benefit the teams new direction... whatever that may be... even if that is to take a step back to make a huge leap forward.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#207 » by Bensational » Sun Nov 8, 2020 8:02 pm

WeHam need another reclamation project. I'd like to see what Clifford could get out of Wiggins. With #2 you take Haliburton who will play SG and become the leader of the team. Add Okeke at the 4, and now you've got 4 capable - good passers, 2-3 decent shooters, and a team of players with the profile to be good defenders. If Vuc is the C then we're more offensively geared, if Bamba is the C then we're more defensively geared and probably looking to push the pace a lot more (and a lot of trailing 3's for Bamba - could do the same with Vuc, too).
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#208 » by pepe1991 » Sun Nov 8, 2020 8:20 pm

How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#209 » by Bensational » Sun Nov 8, 2020 8:41 pm

pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


Plenty of names have been suggested, but you just have different expectations of the impact of that one player. This draft doesn't have an obvious Luka, so there's no point looking for them. Talent like Haliburton and Hayes seem safe to be able to give you positive impact on the floor immediately. Even if they're not a part of the long term final team, just having a good player on a rookie scale contract is a better asset than what we have right now.

I think you're still being prematurely down on Fultz and Bamba. I may not be as high on their potential anymore but I'm still prepared to give them at least another season to show what improvements they can make. Though neither are off the table for me in trades as long as it's a decent return.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#210 » by pepe1991 » Sun Nov 8, 2020 9:21 pm

Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


Plenty of names have been suggested, but you just have different expectations of the impact of that one player. This draft doesn't have an obvious Luka, so there's no point looking for them. Talent like Haliburton and Hayes seem safe to be able to give you positive impact on the floor immediately. Even if they're not a part of the long term final team, just having a good player on a rookie scale contract is a better asset than what we have right now.

I think you're still being prematurely down on Fultz and Bamba. I may not be as high on their potential anymore but I'm still prepared to give them at least another season to show what improvements they can make. Though neither are off the table for me in trades as long as it's a decent return.



Good player is a reach for vast majority of this prospects.
And having 2# pick in 2021 means you will be paying him legit money from day one ( i already said their rookie base salary is over $7M , by the time they are in 4th year, 2# pick will make over $11M a year).
Hayes is only viewed as "good" because nobody actually watched him play. Below average athlete who is also very average basketball player.
Haliburton has fundamentally broken jumpshot like Lonzo. He is complete no treat to shoot hooks, running hooks, stop and pop or any shots off dribble. Guy shot 28% off dribble. His game is catch&shoot 3s and transition. Spoiler alert: almost nba player can do that. He is also super skinny, underdeveloped body, and already turning 21 in 3 months.
He also never really attacks rim. Guy shot 2,0 FTA a game while averaging 37 min a game. Main reason for it is because he avoids any contact, and main reason why he avoids contact is his body . Standing at 6'5 and being 175 pounds is laughable.
Much like any guard, if he can't shoot, he is not starting level guard in nba.

And list goes on and on... Edwards who will go 1# is way closer to Wiggins as player than Oladipo/Wade he is being compared to.
Wiseman has no advanced skills whatsoever and his hype comes from youtube videos with him dribbling against 6'5 highschool "centers" ( wink wink Dante Exum :roll: ). Guy faced 1 palyer taller than 6'9 at college in few games he played, and coudn't score on him. That's reality of his "skills".

Main reason why 1# and 2# pick are up to grabs is because it's obvious Luka type player doesn't exist, but it's also kind a obivous that Oladipo level of player also isn't there.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#211 » by yoyojw17 » Sun Nov 8, 2020 9:28 pm

Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


Plenty of names have been suggested, but you just have different expectations of the impact of that one player. This draft doesn't have an obvious Luka, so there's no point looking for them. Talent like Haliburton and Hayes seem safe to be able to give you positive impact on the floor immediately. Even if they're not a part of the long term final team, just having a good player on a rookie scale contract is a better asset than what we have right now.

I think you're still being prematurely down on Fultz and Bamba. I may not be as high on their potential anymore but I'm still prepared to give them at least another season to show what improvements they can make. Though neither are off the table for me in trades as long as it's a decent return.

Pepe... i love your ability to find stats and all this information.... cuz lawd knows i wouldn't spend that much time... but though the numbers exist... there is a context to everything... and those carry just as much as anything else... especially when you're critiquing young players. Simply saying that player "x" beat player "y" 75 times out of 100.... may seem like a no brainer... until we find out that player "x" had 1 arm tied behind his back... then the answer is no longer as easy... is it.

Fultz has had one of the toughest beginnings to a career. Had a frustrating injury... was drafted #1 and a year later people are calling him trash and a bust.... he is taken in by a team that seems to sympathize with him brought him in and gave him an opportunity to grow without the pressure that he had on him in philly. Year one... no expectations.... come in... get used to the system... take your time and #1 come out healthy! looks like a successful season to me. I can more than guarantee he is much more than just a flyer for this team.... he is a core piece.

Bamba... came into the league weighing 210ish pounds soaking wet at 7' with a 7'10" wingspan... that is a lot of area to cover. They drafted him knowing this and had a plan to bring him along easily. They resigned the center that's been carrying this team as much as he could not because they didn't believe in bamba.... but that they didn't want to put the pressure on him until he could physically do so... guess what... the guy gained nearly 40 lb and returned to the bubble throwing his weight around instead of all shying away from contact and taking only 3's... and if you don't think that raises confidence... i don't know what to say. Sucks that an unforeseen complication took the wind out of his sail... the same way that it was pulled away from JI.

That's a totally different narrative than most people might want to assume... but in MY opinion it's better than scratching them off as negative players from what seems more like a lack of patience or more so frustration.

As i said earlier in this thread and others... i can see how many of our pieces will work in the future ... sans the current records, stats, numbers.

If they believe AG (everyone knows i love me some AG) will not fit the bill on our team... then yes... I am ok if they can reshuffle the deck to find try and find equivalent talent that also possibly even fits. If AG was sent to the warriors i would be happy if they took chances at Edwards, Hayes, Deni... if THEY feel like they have the talent that they love. There is only so much that we can evaluate from players in college or in different leagues... at young ages...in either amazing or **** situations and plot where their future will lead. Hence the reason there is always so much uncertainty. If it was so easy... then we would know the exact order of all of these darn drafts... but there are so many factors that come into play.

But yeah... deni is in my opinion is a guy I would love to give a chance on this team.... and he has a lot of the things we would love from the forward position. Blades that exist... but might need sharpening.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#212 » by Bensational » Sun Nov 8, 2020 9:34 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


Plenty of names have been suggested, but you just have different expectations of the impact of that one player. This draft doesn't have an obvious Luka, so there's no point looking for them. Talent like Haliburton and Hayes seem safe to be able to give you positive impact on the floor immediately. Even if they're not a part of the long term final team, just having a good player on a rookie scale contract is a better asset than what we have right now.

I think you're still being prematurely down on Fultz and Bamba. I may not be as high on their potential anymore but I'm still prepared to give them at least another season to show what improvements they can make. Though neither are off the table for me in trades as long as it's a decent return.



Good player is a reach for vast majority of this prospects.
And having 2# pick in 2021 means you will be paying him legit money from day one ( i already said their rookie base salary is over $7M , by the time they are in 4th year, 2# pick will make over $11M a year).
Hayes is only viewed as "good" because nobody actually watched him play. Below average athlete who is also very average basketball player.
Haliburton has fundamentally broken jumpshot like Lonzo. He is complete no treat to shoot hooks, running hooks, stop and pop or any shots off dribble. Guy shot 28% off dribble. His game is catch&shoot 3s and transition. Spoiler alert: almost nba player can do that. He is also super skinny, underdeveloped body, and already turning 21 in 3 months.
He also never really attacks rim. Guy shot 2,0 FTA a game while averaging 37 min a game. Main reason for it is because he avoids any contact, and main reason why he avoids contact is his body . Standing at 6'5 and being 175 pounds is laughable.
Much like any guard, if he can't shoot, he is not starting level guard in nba.

And list goes on and on... Edwards who will go 1# is way closer to Wiggins as player than Oladipo/Wade he is being compared to.
Wiseman has no advanced skills whatsoever and his hype comes from youtube videos with him dribbling against 6'5 highschool "centers" ( wink wink Dante Exum :roll: ). Guy faced 1 palyer taller than 6'9 at college in few games he played, and coudn't score on him. That's reality of his "skills".

Main reason why 1# and 2# pick are up to grabs is because it's obvious Luka type player doesn't exist, but it's also kind a obivous that Oladipo level of player also isn't there.


So you're confident this draft won't produce a single player of Mitchell/SGA/CJ calibre? Seems like you're gonna bunker down in this one, so alright man, time will tell. :D
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#213 » by p0peye » Sun Nov 8, 2020 9:50 pm

pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


Pepe, man, it is time to let Hezonja go. It's been a disappointment, I feel you, I've been there with Milicic, but man you're dogging that kid every chance you get.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#214 » by Knightro » Sun Nov 8, 2020 10:47 pm

pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


You're just looking at this all wrong.

It's not and has never been a matter of the Magic needing the #2 pick in this draft to come in and "save" the franchise. That's just way too much of a narrow view. This is much wider than that.

This is about breaking up a 37-win team that's capped out with virtually no path to get better in favor of adding more young, cost-controlled talent not just in the 2020 draft, but in the 2021 draft and beyond.

This team as presently constructed is in the the worst possible spot. Not good enough to win a playoff series, but not in a position to acquire better talent. Stuck firmly in the middle.

I don't even disagree with your repeated point that tanking is a risky proposition in its own right, but it's beyond clear at this point that this Magic roster is going nowhere. This type of move is the type of move they should be looking to make to give themselves A. more young talent and B. a possible path towards acquiring even better young talent.

And to be clear, and I know I'm in the minority with this take, but I would be perfectly fine taking LaMelo Ball at 2.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#215 » by Xatticus » Mon Nov 9, 2020 1:01 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


Plenty of names have been suggested, but you just have different expectations of the impact of that one player. This draft doesn't have an obvious Luka, so there's no point looking for them. Talent like Haliburton and Hayes seem safe to be able to give you positive impact on the floor immediately. Even if they're not a part of the long term final team, just having a good player on a rookie scale contract is a better asset than what we have right now.

I think you're still being prematurely down on Fultz and Bamba. I may not be as high on their potential anymore but I'm still prepared to give them at least another season to show what improvements they can make. Though neither are off the table for me in trades as long as it's a decent return.



Good player is a reach for vast majority of this prospects.
And having 2# pick in 2021 means you will be paying him legit money from day one ( i already said their rookie base salary is over $7M , by the time they are in 4th year, 2# pick will make over $11M a year).
Hayes is only viewed as "good" because nobody actually watched him play. Below average athlete who is also very average basketball player.
Haliburton has fundamentally broken jumpshot like Lonzo. He is complete no treat to shoot hooks, running hooks, stop and pop or any shots off dribble. Guy shot 28% off dribble. His game is catch&shoot 3s and transition. Spoiler alert: almost nba player can do that. He is also super skinny, underdeveloped body, and already turning 21 in 3 months.
He also never really attacks rim. Guy shot 2,0 FTA a game while averaging 37 min a game. Main reason for it is because he avoids any contact, and main reason why he avoids contact is his body . Standing at 6'5 and being 175 pounds is laughable.
Much like any guard, if he can't shoot, he is not starting level guard in nba.

And list goes on and on... Edwards who will go 1# is way closer to Wiggins as player than Oladipo/Wade he is being compared to.
Wiseman has no advanced skills whatsoever and his hype comes from youtube videos with him dribbling against 6'5 highschool "centers" ( wink wink Dante Exum :roll: ). Guy faced 1 palyer taller than 6'9 at college in few games he played, and coudn't score on him. That's reality of his "skills".

Main reason why 1# and 2# pick are up to grabs is because it's obvious Luka type player doesn't exist, but it's also kind a obivous that Oladipo level of player also isn't there.


Do you not understand that nobody in this draft is a finished product? Vucevic didn't even average 3 points per game in his freshman season. He couldn't pass the ball til he was 25 and he couldn't shoot the three til he was 27. Those are his most valuable skills at this point. You draft talent and you develop it. Edwards and Wiseman have more talent than anyone on our roster save for Fultz and perhaps Gordon or Isaac. I'm skeptical that we would actually develop that talent, but it's there. We just seem to be more concerned with making the playoffs than investing in the future.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#216 » by Ducklett » Mon Nov 9, 2020 1:19 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:How adding Fultz, Bamba helped Magic improve team's ceiling ? Oh it didn't. But somehow adding 2020 draftee WHO ONCE AGAIN NOBODY WANTS TO NAME WHO - will somehow save us?

I'm here, still standing, waiting to hear WHO WOULD MAGIC DRAFT AT 2# ESPECIALLY IF EDWARDS IS GONE. WHO????

This crazy overhype of second overall pick WITHOUT GIVING UP NAME WHO TO DRAFT is crazy. This is esencially same issue with every draft. Having 5th overall draft pick sounds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than drafting Hezonja.


Plenty of names have been suggested, but you just have different expectations of the impact of that one player. This draft doesn't have an obvious Luka, so there's no point looking for them. Talent like Haliburton and Hayes seem safe to be able to give you positive impact on the floor immediately. Even if they're not a part of the long term final team, just having a good player on a rookie scale contract is a better asset than what we have right now.

I think you're still being prematurely down on Fultz and Bamba. I may not be as high on their potential anymore but I'm still prepared to give them at least another season to show what improvements they can make. Though neither are off the table for me in trades as long as it's a decent return.



Good player is a reach for vast majority of this prospects.
And having 2# pick in 2021 means you will be paying him legit money from day one ( i already said their rookie base salary is over $7M , by the time they are in 4th year, 2# pick will make over $11M a year).
Hayes is only viewed as "good" because nobody actually watched him play. Below average athlete who is also very average basketball player.
Haliburton has fundamentally broken jumpshot like Lonzo. He is complete no treat to shoot hooks, running hooks, stop and pop or any shots off dribble. Guy shot 28% off dribble. His game is catch&shoot 3s and transition. Spoiler alert: almost nba player can do that. He is also super skinny, underdeveloped body, and already turning 21 in 3 months.
He also never really attacks rim. Guy shot 2,0 FTA a game while averaging 37 min a game. Main reason for it is because he avoids any contact, and main reason why he avoids contact is his body . Standing at 6'5 and being 175 pounds is laughable.
Much like any guard, if he can't shoot, he is not starting level guard in nba.

And list goes on and on... Edwards who will go 1# is way closer to Wiggins as player than Oladipo/Wade he is being compared to.
Wiseman has no advanced skills whatsoever and his hype comes from youtube videos with him dribbling against 6'5 highschool "centers" ( wink wink Dante Exum :roll: ). Guy faced 1 palyer taller than 6'9 at college in few games he played, and coudn't score on him. That's reality of his "skills".

Main reason why 1# and 2# pick are up to grabs is because it's obvious Luka type player doesn't exist, but it's also kind a obivous that Oladipo level of player also isn't there.


Who do you like in the draft pepe, draft position being irrelevant.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#217 » by zaymon » Mon Nov 9, 2020 7:05 am

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Plenty of names have been suggested, but you just have different expectations of the impact of that one player. This draft doesn't have an obvious Luka, so there's no point looking for them. Talent like Haliburton and Hayes seem safe to be able to give you positive impact on the floor immediately. Even if they're not a part of the long term final team, just having a good player on a rookie scale contract is a better asset than what we have right now.

I think you're still being prematurely down on Fultz and Bamba. I may not be as high on their potential anymore but I'm still prepared to give them at least another season to show what improvements they can make. Though neither are off the table for me in trades as long as it's a decent return.



Good player is a reach for vast majority of this prospects.
And having 2# pick in 2021 means you will be paying him legit money from day one ( i already said their rookie base salary is over $7M , by the time they are in 4th year, 2# pick will make over $11M a year).
Hayes is only viewed as "good" because nobody actually watched him play. Below average athlete who is also very average basketball player.
Haliburton has fundamentally broken jumpshot like Lonzo. He is complete no treat to shoot hooks, running hooks, stop and pop or any shots off dribble. Guy shot 28% off dribble. His game is catch&shoot 3s and transition. Spoiler alert: almost nba player can do that. He is also super skinny, underdeveloped body, and already turning 21 in 3 months.
He also never really attacks rim. Guy shot 2,0 FTA a game while averaging 37 min a game. Main reason for it is because he avoids any contact, and main reason why he avoids contact is his body . Standing at 6'5 and being 175 pounds is laughable.
Much like any guard, if he can't shoot, he is not starting level guard in nba.

And list goes on and on... Edwards who will go 1# is way closer to Wiggins as player than Oladipo/Wade he is being compared to.
Wiseman has no advanced skills whatsoever and his hype comes from youtube videos with him dribbling against 6'5 highschool "centers" ( wink wink Dante Exum :roll: ). Guy faced 1 palyer taller than 6'9 at college in few games he played, and coudn't score on him. That's reality of his "skills".

Main reason why 1# and 2# pick are up to grabs is because it's obvious Luka type player doesn't exist, but it's also kind a obivous that Oladipo level of player also isn't there.


Do you not understand that nobody in this draft is a finished product? Vucevic didn't even average 3 points per game in his freshman season. He couldn't pass the ball til he was 25 and he couldn't shoot the three til he was 27. Those are his most valuable skills at this point. You draft talent and you develop it. Edwards and Wiseman have more talent than anyone on our roster save for Fultz and perhaps Gordon or Isaac. I'm skeptical that we would actually develop that talent, but it's there. We just seem to be more concerned with making the playoffs than investing in the future.


Vucevic developed a lot but this is his scouting report:

Possesses absolutely great size for a C prospect at 7’ 260, and a 7’4 wingspan… Vucevic is a very skilled offensive player, who can be a pretty good C in the NBA … In the post, his size and length make him a viable target for post entry passes … Will call for the ball and works to establish position with his sturdy base … Shows the ability to pull off a good amount of moves (namely a right-handed turnaround jumper, a drop step, and jump hooks with both hands) and can finish with both hands around the rim…Makes some use of counter moves and fakes…Has the added ability to step out and make jump shots from as far 26 ft., although he’s most comfortable from the 18 ft. area…Will be a factor in the pick and pop game … Very soft touch…Above average free throw shooter for a C at 75% this past season … Able to function from the low or high post, and is a solid decision maker in both spots, showing the knowledge of when to shoot and when to kick out to cutters and shooters … Soft hands and rarely ever bobbles or drops psses … Rebounds very well on both ends of the floor, and shows solid fundamentals when boxing out and corralling the ball

So he had soft touch, great shooting form, good free throw percentage, good decision making hmmm seems familiar. He had a base he was building on, he was always good passer and shooter.
While we look at top prospects all are bad shooters, bad decision makers with low motor. For god sake Vucevic is the best free throw shooter among them being 7 foot center. You cant throw projections out of thin air.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#218 » by pepe1991 » Mon Nov 9, 2020 9:11 am

To not reply to everybody all at once:

First of all yes, this draft, like any other draft, will have some elite prospect hidden between this mediocrities on the board.
But imo this draft will go like 2013 draft, with overdrafted players based on things they might develop down the line. Spoiler alert non of them did. ( Noel- body, Zeller- outside jumper, McLemore- secundary playmaking...)
And on other side of a spectrum, late lottery, mid to late round picks will end up in much better situations and look and play better because their teams will be flat out- better. ( Once again, 2013 draft reference, Steven Adams,Plumlee, Roberson, Gobert ).
I highly doubt Giannis type guy is there.

I would take Aaron Nesmith but i'm more than confident that in order to secure pick you really don't need to move much further than 10# slot range. Meaning, doing trade with Pistons, Suns, Wizards or Knicks. For any of those trade i'm not going bananas, just offer pick swap+ player, for example Portis and pick for Gordon or Evan. Or even 2020 pick for 2021 that is top 5 protected.

Now as far as "rebuild" goes. I simply do not see upside in trades that involve taking terrible contract just get a chance to be in position where team has to take Lamelo, Avdija or Wiseman in fear that they will be ridiculed by media if their reach-pick ends up being new Miličić or Bennett and somebody like Edwards/Lamelo/Avdija breaks out.

Xat said prospects are not finished products. That's true. But development isn't science project, most of the time "development" means latheral improvments on already existing skills. Vuc, who was used for example, always had sweet mid range game, and he expended it to 3 point line. That's logical pattern of improvment. Hayes being one hand dominant player without any explosivness in him is something that won't be developed.
Lamelo Ball and Tyrese Haliburton will need complete rework of their jumpshots. It will take time and it's still questionable will they ever be quality shooters in nba. MCW and Payton all were " jumpshot away" from great players. How that worked out?


I used Fultz and Bamba as example of prospects that did not raise Magic ceiling. Because they flat out did not.
Fultz is 4th year player and still needs lot of work, and his rookie deal is already expiring. So now, from 2021-22 you will be paying him real money and still bet on development. On top of that he makes $12M already, so he is not cheap player.
Bamba, same story, 3rd year player that is project.Yet to prove he can play full nba season. Yet to show he can put his body in playing shape to put him out for 25-30 min a night.
Those two guys cost you $20M , so their "cheap rookie deals" are anything but really- cheap.

Isaac helped raise ceiling BUT his contract, like Fultz, is already expiring. On top of that he is hurt all the time.
That's 3 super high lottery picks from previous drafts that really don't do much for this team and non of them is future franchise -savior. With 2 waiting for payday already.

Almost every year this board, like any other board gets waaaaaay too exited about guys that later are nowhere to be found in nba.
KZ Okpala, Mikal Bridges, Maker, Deyonta Davis...

Interesting information: for 2016 draft poll on Orlando Magic board was: most votes to use 11# pick :
Skal Labissiere
Deyonta Davis
tied between Domas Sabonis and Thon Maker

and that's reality of most of this talks. People push their opinion as gospel, get angry, upset about opinions, years later non of this matters. I had to google who Deyonte Davis even is, guy spent like 2 years being marginal bench player. That's a guy this board wanted in lottery 4 yeras ago !
Is Labissiere even in nba any more? I don't even care, guy is G league level of talent who once was viewed as top 10 pick in solid draft.

Oh and some posters here were sooo high on Henry Ellenson. I do not know who Henry Ellenson is. But allegedly he was high upside guy according to old comments from same posters who are active today.
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#219 » by jezzerinho » Mon Nov 9, 2020 11:47 pm

Skybox wrote:I proposed elsewhere...

ORL sends Gordon and Fournier
BOS sends Gordon Hayward
...some BOS fans approved but wanted us to take back more money in Poirier(2.6) or Kanter (5m IF he opts in). I countered that they should throw in pick #30 if we did take back one of those guys we don't need or want.

I know that Hayward isn't 23 and has had injuries and makes way too much money. He's a legit star buried on a deep young team. I love the potential offensive dynamic between Hayward and Vuc. Fultz driving and kicking or finishing. Okeke spotting up, moving the ball, and playing great D (AG with a 3shot and without the highlight reels). Hayward has a few very good years left and, if he's interested in ORL, I'd happily make him the face and voice of our mostly young team. At #15, we target our scoring guard or wing. If we pull the #30 we take a swing at McDaniels or Bane or some other upside freebie or surprisingly still available guy. Hayward, Vuc, and Okeke bring that smart ball-movement "old man" ball. We add shooters and Fultz, Isaac, Bamba, Okeke can all taste some winning while developing.

Vuc/Bamba/whoever
Okeke/Aminu/Clark (ultimately Isaac)
Hayward/Ennis
TRoss/Maxey(Hampton, Bey, Nesmith, Bane?)
Fultz/MCW

I proposed in Sept something similar:


Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?
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Re: 2020 Offseason: Trade Ideas / Trade Talk 

Post#220 » by Ducklett » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:59 am

jezzerinho wrote:
Skybox wrote:I proposed elsewhere...

ORL sends Gordon and Fournier
BOS sends Gordon Hayward
...some BOS fans approved but wanted us to take back more money in Poirier(2.6) or Kanter (5m IF he opts in). I countered that they should throw in pick #30 if we did take back one of those guys we don't need or want.

I know that Hayward isn't 23 and has had injuries and makes way too much money. He's a legit star buried on a deep young team. I love the potential offensive dynamic between Hayward and Vuc. Fultz driving and kicking or finishing. Okeke spotting up, moving the ball, and playing great D (AG with a 3shot and without the highlight reels). Hayward has a few very good years left and, if he's interested in ORL, I'd happily make him the face and voice of our mostly young team. At #15, we target our scoring guard or wing. If we pull the #30 we take a swing at McDaniels or Bane or some other upside freebie or surprisingly still available guy. Hayward, Vuc, and Okeke bring that smart ball-movement "old man" ball. We add shooters and Fultz, Isaac, Bamba, Okeke can all taste some winning while developing.

Vuc/Bamba/whoever
Okeke/Aminu/Clark (ultimately Isaac)
Hayward/Ennis
TRoss/Maxey(Hampton, Bey, Nesmith, Bane?)
Fultz/MCW

I proposed in Sept something similar:


Would you do this trade?

ORL out:
Gordon
Fournier (assumes opt-in)
Bamba

ORL in:
Hayward (assumes opt-in)
Smart

In Smart we get the locker room alpha we've been missing and a guy who can combine with Fultz or spell him, as he's done with Kemba.

Hayward is the SF we've needed to make this team work. It's a one -year gamble, not just that he may not resign but he may not always be healthy. His injury history overall isn't that bad tho and he'd instantly be our option 1. Shame he wouldn't get to play with JI to see what a GH/JI/NV starting frontcourt would be like. A monster, I suspect.

Boston gets a center to mould behind Theis and two important rotational pieces in AG and Evan (1yr rental) while shedding salary. Orl takes extra salary on, but the majority is Haywards and will be restructured or cleared in 2021.

We get a little older. We risk that Hayward's decline starts in Orl. 3pt% only improves incrementally. But it's a much better balanced starting 5, with more shot creation and more drive than we got from AG/Evan. I tend to think it's worth it and, while one of Bos picks to sweeten would be welcome, I'm not sure they do it.

Fultz/Smart/#15?
Smart/Ross/MCW/#15?
Hayward/Ross/Okeke/#15?
(JI)/Aminu/Okeke
Vucevic/FA/#15?


Hayward is one bad landing away from retirement. I don't anything to do with him.

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