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Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team"

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: 

Post#1981 » by basketballRob » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:36 am

pepe1991 wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:So... i guess "better without Evan " ship sinked very fast.
We won't win anymore with Evan.

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In last 3 games along teams made 34 threes more than Magic.
That's 102 points swing,34 points per game difference.

Magic can't shoot 3s because of their dead floor spacing. Evan fixes lot of it by just existing as teams overreact as soon as he gets open.

Only pure haters ( or ones who don't understand concept of basketball ) can't understand why guys like Evan, Ross, Seth Curry, Huerter, Mills and many other shooters have great value, even in possessions when they don't even touch the ball.
They've had many other injuries and haven't been able to rest guys. Fournier is probably sitting out because he didnt get an extension. That's the selfish type of guy he is.

Fournier doesn't shoot as well as the guys you mentioned. He won't be resigned here.

Last season he fought thru injuries, because he thought he might get an extension, even tho we were a worse team with him. This year he really doesn't want to risk injury before he gets a contract. Back injuries are the hardest to diagnose.

Ross isn't shooting well, because he has no legs. Plus Fultz isn't around to set players up now.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1982 » by KillMonger » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:17 pm

there is no way bamba shouldn't be playing going forward, got to find him minutes.....especially now that we more or less have nothing to play for
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: 

Post#1983 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:10 pm

basketballRob wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
basketballRob wrote:We won't win anymore with Evan.

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In last 3 games along teams made 34 threes more than Magic.
That's 102 points swing,34 points per game difference.

Magic can't shoot 3s because of their dead floor spacing. Evan fixes lot of it by just existing as teams overreact as soon as he gets open.

Only pure haters ( or ones who don't understand concept of basketball ) can't understand why guys like Evan, Ross, Seth Curry, Huerter, Mills and many other shooters have great value, even in possessions when they don't even touch the ball.
They've had many other injuries and haven't been able to rest guys. Fournier is probably sitting out because he didnt get an extension. That's the selfish type of guy he is.

Fournier doesn't shoot as well as the guys you mentioned. He won't be resigned here.

Last season he fought thru injuries, because he thought he might get an extension, even tho we were a worse team with him. This year he really doesn't want to risk injury before he gets a contract. Back injuries are the hardest to diagnose.

Ross isn't shooting well, because he has no legs. Plus Fultz isn't around to set players up now.

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So new gimmick is "rest" this year ? Last year was defense, year before was lenght.

Whatever.
For years you blame Evan and in past vuc for everything wrong with this team. At some point you just become parody of yourself. Evan is our best ( at worst ,second best)shooter we had, on team that needs shooting.
They can't resign him because they flat out don't have money. And he wants to go to contender and make his career worth a wile, instad wasting his life on team that for 9 years went from rebuild to first round exists back to rebuild.

Fultz set no plays for Ross whatsoever, main reason why Ross is no longer effective is because teams figured only Magic offense off bench is Birch screen to Ross. And now with Gordon hurt, Evan hurt, we have nobody else to keep help defense away from Ross. Happend to us in playoffs last year as well. Fultz almost never even played with Ross, but who needs facts when you can just make up arguements, you know all about it.

That " sitting to hide" is ridicilous and isn't even worth reply.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1984 » by jonbob17 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:28 pm

drsd wrote:
jonbob17 wrote:I will say Birch's numbers are impressive thus far, surprised to see him as a positive on offense.


He is a league leader in something called "Screened-assists".
The point is that Birch knows his role and plays to his strengths. And that is why ...

Still think the minutes should be going to Bamba.


... Birch gets more minutes than Bamba. When Bamba stops forcing his game and starts playing to his own strengths, he will get the Birch minutes. Off-season is were a player develops new skills (and show them off in camp and the pre-season). Within the season, a player needs to simplify and play one's game: only. The players that are exceptions to this rule are the Super-stars.

..


Birch is not the league leader in screened assists. Sabonis and Gobert are tied for the lead, Sabonis lead this last year too. If you adjust for minutes played, since they are starters and Birch is not, Bamba is ironically the leader. Birch is very good, but trying to use this statistic against Bamba is a foolish effort.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1985 » by Skybox » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:29 pm

Has there ever been a better time to make a bold move for a middling team?
-No arena revenue regardless if there's a rough patch
-decimated by injuries to the two young guys we've just committed to- and everybody else
-Our best shooter is an upcoming FA
-Our most valuable trade chip (AG) is also our most redundant when Isaac gets back (to a lesser extent Okeke)
-All indications are a strong draft this offseason
-Good chance that league will pause/shut down or bubble before this season and pandemic are over
-Continuity as an advantage is shot due to minimal preseason and constant roster uncertainty this season

GO FOR IT WEHAM - nobody cares if we suck right now. This NBA season is irrelevant and getting nuttier by the day.

1. Hold on to Vuc. Let Bamba play more, experiment with him at PF (I know I know-just get him on the floor for now). Vuc can shoot 3's and score inside if needed. He is highly skilled and adaptable to new talent coming in. Not his fault that he's been the best guy on the team for years (by a mile). He'll be a fantastic 2nd or 3rd option someday. Hopefully, Bamba draws interest or reveals himself to be a keeper. Either way, he's worthless rotting on our bench for 4 years before he gets a chance or reveals himself to be a bust.
2. Trade AG and Evan for prospects that are buried like NAW, Nesmith, Levert (sort of buried-we'll say overshadowed) etc...or, if you can, bundle for a star like Beal or CJ (add in Bamba, Aminu, etc, as needed). Both of these guys have some value and both need a change of scenery. Get shooters and handlers. Look for chemistry, not individual talent. Assemble a team that works, with Isaac, Fultz, and Vuc in mind.
3. Keep TRoss (unless he's a deal-breaker for a star trade). He's also highly adaptable and relishes his 6th man role.
4. Let Cole play through his mistakes and gently refine him. He's seems to have the Alpha ego that can handle temporary setbacks and firmly believes he's (going to be) a great player. Really, what's our other option at PG. Do NOT trade for a placeholder like Bledsoe, etc
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1986 » by Knightro » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:58 pm

One thing that Clifford does that really annoys me is that he seemingly ignores how well guys are going to play together and simply cites how well a player is playing individually as justification for making a move.

Like...

Khem Birch has been absolutely fine as the backup C. I'd much rather see Bamba, but Birch has been solid in that role.

That said... Birch being solid as the backup C is not justification for him to now be playing power forward.

Birch has been terrible at power forward. Gordon has been terrible at small forward. Clark has been terrible playing against starters.

Clark + Birch: +7.1 NET
Clark + Vucevic: -6.6 NET
Gordon (at SF) + Clark: -19.4 NET
Birch + Vucevic: -23.8 NET

There are simple things that Clifford can do rotation wise to maximize the guys he has out there that he's just not doing. Clifford instead puts a lot of these guys in positions to fail and then expresses his displeasure with the team not playing hard enough or smart enough to win. It's frustrating.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1987 » by Xatticus » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:39 pm

pepe1991 wrote:So... i guess "better without Evan " ship sinked very fast.


I don’t really see why. We have been better when he is off the floor. Even when we were off to that 6-2 start, we were getting killed when he was on the floor (-6.5 net rating) because of that 120.2 def rating. Our bench (Ross in particular) is what won us those games. Of course, Ross was playing out of his mind during that stretch.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1988 » by drsd » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:54 pm

jonbob17 wrote:
drsd wrote:
jonbob17 wrote:I will say Birch's numbers are impressive thus far, surprised to see him as a positive on offense.


He is a league leader in something called "Screened-assists".
The point is that Birch knows his role and plays to his strengths. And that is why ...

Still think the minutes should be going to Bamba.


... Birch gets more minutes than Bamba. When Bamba stops forcing his game and starts playing to his own strengths, he will get the Birch minutes. Off-season is were a player develops new skills (and show them off in camp and the pre-season). Within the season, a player needs to simplify and play one's game: only. The players that are exceptions to this rule are the Super-stars.

..


Birch is not the league leader in screened assists.


Respectively, the article I used was "a" and not "the". My meaning was that he has performed that role well, not that he is NBA elite at setting screens. Hope the clarification helps.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1989 » by drsd » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:00 pm

Skybox wrote:Has there ever been a better time to make a bold move for a middling team?
-No arena revenue regardless if there's a rough patch
-decimated by injuries to the two young guys we've just committed to- and everybody else
-Our best shooter is an upcoming FA
-Our most valuable trade chip (AG) is also our most redundant when Isaac gets back (to a lesser extent Okeke)
-All indications are a strong draft this offseason
-Good chance that league will pause/shut down or bubble before this season and pandemic are over
-Continuity as an advantage is shot due to minimal preseason and constant roster uncertainty this season

GO FOR IT WEHAM - nobody cares if we suck right now. This NBA season is irrelevant and getting nuttier by the day.

1. Hold on to Vuc. Let Bamba play more, experiment with him at PF (I know I know-just get him on the floor for now). Vuc can shoot 3's and score inside if needed. He is highly skilled and adaptable to new talent coming in. Not his fault that he's been the best guy on the team for years (by a mile). He'll be a fantastic 2nd or 3rd option someday. Hopefully, Bamba draws interest or reveals himself to be a keeper. Either way, he's worthless rotting on our bench for 4 years before he gets a chance or reveals himself to be a bust.
2. Trade AG and Evan for prospects that are buried like NAW, Nesmith, Levert (sort of buried-we'll say overshadowed) etc...or, if you can, bundle for a star like Beal or CJ (add in Bamba, Aminu, etc, as needed). Both of these guys have some value and both need a change of scenery. Get shooters and handlers. Look for chemistry, not individual talent. Assemble a team that works, with Isaac, Fultz, and Vuc in mind.
3. Keep TRoss (unless he's a deal-breaker for a star trade). He's also highly adaptable and relishes his 6th man role.
4. Let Cole play through his mistakes and gently refine him. He's seems to have the Alpha ego that can handle temporary setbacks and firmly believes he's (going to be) a great player. Really, what's our other option at PG. Do NOT trade for a placeholder like Bledsoe, etc


1) Unless the Magic sign Isaiah Thomas, Shabazz Napier, or Jeremy Lin in the next two weeks, I think this is a sign that Orlando is not going to try to actually win games. At that point, trading Fournier to Boston for a 2nd-round pick (to save revenue) and Gordon for some young assets such as Alexander-Walker and a future 1st is not a bad outcome. Then, well, I guess we can look forward to Anthony/Bacon/Ennis/Okeke/Bamba minutes together. Ouch!

2) I totally disagree with, "Good chance that league will pause/shut down or bubble before this season and pandemic are over". Te legume might ban fans from all games, but has projected the the season will go on as is.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1990 » by drsd » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:07 pm

KillMonger wrote:there is no way bamba shouldn't be playing going forward, got to find him minutes.....especially now that we more or less have nothing to play for


If/when Bamba proves he can defend the 4, the yes, why not run Bamba / Vučević as staters and slide Gordon to the 3.

..
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1991 » by Skybox » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:56 pm

drsd wrote:
KillMonger wrote:there is no way bamba shouldn't be playing going forward, got to find him minutes.....especially now that we more or less have nothing to play for


If/when Bamba proves he can defend the 4, the yes, why not run Bamba / Vučević as staters and slide Gordon to the 3.

..


Or, maybe, go smaller when those twin towers are plodding around...TRoss at 3, Evan, Cole
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1992 » by Skybox » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:57 pm

drsd wrote:
Skybox wrote:2) I totally disagree with, "Good chance that league will pause/shut down or bubble before this season and pandemic are over". Te legume might ban fans from all games, but has projected the the season will go on as is.


Hope you're right but they're already canceling games and playing with 8 guys...there's a limit to what's optional. Covid-19 isn't done with us yet.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1993 » by jonbob17 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:35 pm

drsd wrote:
jonbob17 wrote:
drsd wrote:
He is a league leader in something called "Screened-assists".
The point is that Birch knows his role and plays to his strengths. And that is why ...



... Birch gets more minutes than Bamba. When Bamba stops forcing his game and starts playing to his own strengths, he will get the Birch minutes. Off-season is were a player develops new skills (and show them off in camp and the pre-season). Within the season, a player needs to simplify and play one's game: only. The players that are exceptions to this rule are the Super-stars.

..


Birch is not the league leader in screened assists.


Respectively, the article I used was "a" and not "the". My meaning was that he has performed that role well, not that he is NBA elite at setting screens. Hope the clarification helps.


That's fine, but you are using it as part of an argument as to why Birch deserves more minutes than Bamba. I would say Birch is pretty elite at setting screens, at least by the metric of screen assists. The problem with the argument is, that by that same measure, Bamba is also elite, or at least very close to equal Birch.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1994 » by KillMonger » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:10 pm

drsd wrote:
KillMonger wrote:there is no way bamba shouldn't be playing going forward, got to find him minutes.....especially now that we more or less have nothing to play for


If/when Bamba proves he can defend the 4, the yes, why not run Bamba / Vučević as staters and slide Gordon to the 3.

..

i would just slide birch at the PF and bamba at C in the second unit. Gameplan wise nothing changes because bamba can play the floor spacer role. I don't think Vuc and Bamba could play together, doesn't have the foot speed as Giannis showed yesterday
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1995 » by IllMagic04 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:31 pm

KillMonger wrote:
drsd wrote:
KillMonger wrote:there is no way bamba shouldn't be playing going forward, got to find him minutes.....especially now that we more or less have nothing to play for


If/when Bamba proves he can defend the 4, the yes, why not run Bamba / Vučević as staters and slide Gordon to the 3.

..

i would just slide birch at the PF and bamba at C in the second unit. Gameplan wise nothing changes because bamba can play the floor spacer role. I don't think Vuc and Bamba could play together, doesn't have the foot speed as Giannis showed yesterday
Thats Giannas though. Id still like to try Bamba at 4 with Vuc.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1996 » by drsd » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:32 pm

jonbob17 wrote:That's fine, but you are using it as part of an argument as to why Birch deserves more minutes than Bamba. I would say Birch is pretty elite at setting screens, at least by the metric of screen assists. The problem with the argument is, that by that same measure, Bamba is also elite, or at least very close to equal Birch.


Respectfully, my argument is the invert. My argument was that Birch plays within his game. And that if Bamba would only play within his game, he would earn many of the minutes that Birch now has.

In conclusion Bamba needs to be better.

..
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1997 » by JBSouthpaw » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:43 pm

jonbob17 wrote:
drsd wrote:
jonbob17 wrote:
Birch is not the league leader in screened assists.


Respectively, the article I used was "a" and not "the". My meaning was that he has performed that role well, not that he is NBA elite at setting screens. Hope the clarification helps.


That's fine, but you are using it as part of an argument as to why Birch deserves more minutes than Bamba. I would say Birch is pretty elite at setting screens, at least by the metric of screen assists. The problem with the argument is, that by that same measure, Bamba is also elite, or at least very close to equal Birch.

Bamba screen ain't so good....
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1998 » by GelbeWand09 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:07 pm

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:So... i guess "better without Evan " ship sinked very fast.


I don’t really see why. We have been better when he is off the floor. Even when we were off to that 6-2 start, we were getting killed when he was on the floor (-6.5 net rating) because of that 120.2 def rating. Our bench (Ross in particular) is what won us those games. Of course, Ross was playing out of his mind during that stretch.


Not only that, but given our current injury situation, this statement is super flawed. I would say its impossible to debate seriously about Evans importance for our team, based on the the last 6-7 games.

If we missed only Evan on that losing streak, you could make a argument (but maybe not, see my last point), but we lose games without 3 starters & our by far 2 best defenders. With AG missing one of those game too & a rookie SG starting @ the Point.

There is just no reliable data in the moment for that kinda statement (pro or con), because we are in a freak situation.

When you add our record against 50%+ teams last year with Evan, it makes even less sense, because thats the kind of teams we played against.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#1999 » by ChosenSavior » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:17 pm

No game for us tomorrow. The NBA postponed our matchup against Boston.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#2000 » by KillMonger » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:31 pm

ChosenSavior wrote:No game for us tomorrow. The NBA postponed our matchup against Boston.

good, gives us time to get right
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