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Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team"

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#681 » by basketballRob » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:41 pm

Knightro wrote:People are dramatically underestimating how bad Cole Anthony is going to be.

The vast majority of rookies are terrible from a positive impact perspective and Anthony was REALLY BAD (it can't be stressed how bad he was) in college.

If Anthony is not god awful this year, it would be a massive victory for the Magic.
They have no choice but to play him. MCW plays so hard that he's always banged up. Plus Fultz has a really tough time keeping up with the small quick guards.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#682 » by jonbob17 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:42 pm

Bakomagic wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
as much as I am part of the exasperated group of fans, you have to be fair, technically replacing DJ with someone of Cole's caliber in the Guard spot s already a win. I think comparable 3pt wise ( remains to be seen ) but def better scorer/driving than DJ


There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.



Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.


DJ's TS% was 55% last year and at least 61% the previous two years, which 61% is pretty damn good for a PG that shoots a lot. I would be shocked if Anthony was able to match his output. He surely won't get as many minutes, but if he came close to DJs per 36 minutes as a rookie, he'd probably be getting similar minutes by the middle of the season.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#683 » by Knightro » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:44 pm

Bensational wrote:It will all depend on how ready to play Cole is. Cliff said in his presser in very cloaked language not to expect him to play much early on due to the shortened preseason. I'd say the plan right now is to see if the team can get out ahead of the pack with consistency on the roster in a shortened season.

With the addition of Bacon I wonder if Okeke is even going to struggle to get minutes early on. I could see a Birch/Aminu/Bacon/Ross/MCW 2nd unit. Clark/Okeke/Cole filling up the depth minutes in blow outs. Sounds like Bamba already has the covid excuse for Cliff to keep him off the court.


This is my biggest fear tbh.

That Clifford rolls out the following 9-man rotation...

Fultz-Fournier-Ennis-Gordon-Vucevic
MCW-Ross-Aminu-Birch

And if that happens, if Clifford tries to grind out as many wins as he can with 7 of his 9 rotation guys aged 28 or older, I just don't see how anyone could *want* to watch that garbage.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#684 » by Bensational » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:47 pm

Bakomagic wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
as much as I am part of the exasperated group of fans, you have to be fair, technically replacing DJ with someone of Cole's caliber in the Guard spot s already a win. I think comparable 3pt wise ( remains to be seen ) but def better scorer/driving than DJ


There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.



Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.


Individual stats are only one way to analyse a player and they don't often tell you how well they impact those around them. Despite everyone's criticisms, he was a positive impact on almost every player when looking at lineups. He helped lift the bench last season, and he helped steady the starters the season before.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#685 » by basketballRob » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:47 pm

jonbob17 wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.



Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.


DJ's TS% was 55% last year and at least 61% the previous two years, which 61% is pretty damn good for a PG that shoots a lot. I would be shocked if Anthony was able to match his output. He surely won't get as many minutes, but if he came close to DJs per 36 minutes as a rookie, he'd probably be getting similar minutes by the middle of the season.
Anthony is more of a volume type scorer. He effortlessly gets shots up. DJ would always wait until he was wide open.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#686 » by Bakomagic » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:48 pm

jonbob17 wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.



Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.


DJ's TS% was 55% last year and at least 61% the previous two years, which 61% is pretty damn good for a PG that shoots a lot. I would be shocked if Anthony was able to match his output. He surely won't get as many minutes, but if he came close to DJs per 36 minutes as a rookie, he'd probably be getting similar minutes by the middle of the season.


I must have read the wrong stats, DJ is a good shooter but at the end of the day he is a liability on defense and he often misses open shooters and or puts them in bad positions with errant passes or passes that come too late after the defense has recovered

Do I expect Cole to be better than DJ next year ?

No, but I think massive downgrade is an exaggeration, especially when we consider things other than shooting.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#687 » by RookieStar » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:49 pm

Guys, I don't really expect Cole to be the floor general some envision him to be. I kinda expect him to be the no-conscience scorer/shooter ( more emphasis on scorer ) version in the Guard spot like Ross is to our G/F spot.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#688 » by D12VCMagic » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:50 pm

shadrock wrote:I mean, does Alex Martins seriously think evern fan is dumb enough not to see through this bull? Having a "playoff team" that wins 41 games and has not future is not a better option for fans. I preferred this team when we were winning 20 games but had hope for real things in the future. Stop treating us like low IQ robots who just buy popcorn and season tickets.


I mean, a lot of fans are though sadly, or just don’t care enough. This isn’t Philly, Boston, NY, etc where there is constant fan pressure to succeed. Most people in Orlando could care less about the Magic regardless of what the team does.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#689 » by PrimeThyme » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:58 pm

Xatticus wrote:There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.

Especially when you consider what Clifford values in a point guard. Someone who doesn't turn the ball over. DJ was top 20 in assist to turnover ratio last year. Fultz ranked 50th and MCW was still in the top 100 as well.

I worry about that number quite a bit for Cole, early on. Especially if they are going to put the ball in his hands as a playmaker, as that is something he struggled with at the college level. He can pretty effortlessly create shots for himself, but the creating shots for others aspect of his game is still a work in progress.

We're going to see how committed to his development they are because you better believe that there will be bumps in the road. You can't treat every prospect like Bamba and give him 15 mins a night, or have him rack up DNP's tho. The kid is going to have to play.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#690 » by MagicMatic » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:01 am

PrimeThyme wrote:
Xatticus wrote:There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.

Especially when you consider what Clifford values in a point guard. Someone who doesn't turn the ball over. DJ was top 20 in assist to turnover ratio last year. Fultz ranked 50th and MCW was still in the top 100 as well.

I worry about that number quite a bit for Cole, early on. Especially if they are going to put the ball in his hands as a playmaker, as that is something he struggled with at the college level. He can pretty effortlessly create shots for himself, but the creating shots for others aspect of his game is still a work in progress.

We're going to see how committed to his development they are because you better believe that there will be bumps in the road. You can't treat every prospect like Bamba and give him 15 mins a night, or have him rack up DNP's tho. The kid is going to have to play.


I’m concerned that it won’t matter with resigning MCW and keeping Fournier, Ross, and Fultz playing heavy minutes. Without Isaac, Clifford will be relying on vets more than anything. People are kidding themselves if they think Cole is stepping into DJs minutes seamlessly this season.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#691 » by Nyce_1 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:02 am

shadrock wrote:I mean, does Alex Martins seriously think evern fan is dumb enough not to see through this bull? Having a "playoff team" that wins 41 games and has not future is not a better option for fans. I preferred this team when we were winning 20 games but had hope for real things in the future. Stop treating us like low IQ robots who just buy popcorn and season tickets.
Your mistake is assuming all magic fans are die hard like us. I'd say hard-core fans represent 10-15% of the fan base. The rest are casual fans that get excited or pay attention when playoffs are near or happening.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#692 » by Bakomagic » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:08 am

Bensational wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.



Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.


Individual stats are only one way to analyse a player and they don't often tell you how well they impact those around them. Despite everyone's criticisms, he was a positive impact on almost every player when looking at lineups. He helped lift the bench last season, and he helped steady the starters the season before.



I agree 100% with your individual stats argument!

Always best to look at context, we should also use that attitude when looking at Anthony’s year at UNC too.

Either way the crux of the argument whether Cole will be a massive downgrade this year and I just don’t think that Will be the case so I wanted to get an idea of what numbers or statistics or whatever performance metrics would Cole have to be at for him to be considered a massive downgrade.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#693 » by Skin » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:25 am

Bakomagic wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
as much as I am part of the exasperated group of fans, you have to be fair, technically replacing DJ with someone of Cole's caliber in the Guard spot s already a win. I think comparable 3pt wise ( remains to be seen ) but def better scorer/driving than DJ


There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.



Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.

The more I watch of Cole the more I am sure he's going to be a terribly inefficient player who I will hate sooner rather than later. Nothing worse than a chucker who misses shots but thinks the next one will go in or who forces a highly difficult shot and by pure luck it goes in so he keeps on chucking. He plays lazy defense... is a classic "watcher" has short arms ... and won't get the phony foul calls in the NBA like he did in college as a top prospect. Hopefully I'm wrong.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#694 » by MagicMatic » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:27 am

Knightro wrote:
Bensational wrote:It will all depend on how ready to play Cole is. Cliff said in his presser in very cloaked language not to expect him to play much early on due to the shortened preseason. I'd say the plan right now is to see if the team can get out ahead of the pack with consistency on the roster in a shortened season.

With the addition of Bacon I wonder if Okeke is even going to struggle to get minutes early on. I could see a Birch/Aminu/Bacon/Ross/MCW 2nd unit. Clark/Okeke/Cole filling up the depth minutes in blow outs. Sounds like Bamba already has the covid excuse for Cliff to keep him off the court.


This is my biggest fear tbh.

That Clifford rolls out the following 9-man rotation...

Fultz-Fournier-Ennis-Gordon-Vucevic
MCW-Ross-Aminu-Birch

And if that happens, if Clifford tries to grind out as many wins as he can with 7 of his 9 rotation guys aged 28 or older, I just don't see how anyone could *want* to watch that garbage.


Its going to happen.

Hiring Clifford all but solidified “playoffs or bust” regardless of easing young players into minutes. He doesn’t give a **** what fans want to watch. Whatever will help him squeeze wins out of this flawed roster will be the result. This is why I’m no longer mad at Clifford. I’m mad at this FO hiring him. Playing Cole is a risk for him. Okeke might be a necessity.

There’s is nuance to FO decisions. Coaching not so much.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#695 » by basketballRob » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:40 am

Skin wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
There is almost zero chance that Anthony doesn’t hurt us. It’s a massive downgrade. I’m not an Augustin fan, but he made us better. Rookie PGs almost always struggle. Anthony hasn’t demonstrated that he can handle the ACC. I didn’t like the pick, but I’m not going to be slinging ‘I told you so’s when he struggles. We have to be patient while he takes his lumps. My bigger concern is that he might get squeezed out of the rotation if we are healthy. The pick has been made and we have to commit to his development. Clifford wants to win the next game and MCW is going to give us a better chance at winning games.



Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.

The more I watch of Cole the more I am sure he's going to be a terribly inefficient player who I will hate sooner rather than later. Nothing worse than a chucker who misses shots but thinks the next one will go in or who forces a highly difficult shot and by pure luck it goes in so he keeps on chucking. He plays lazy defense... is a classic "watcher" has short arms ... and won't get the phony foul calls in the NBA like he did in college as a top prospect. Hopefully I'm wrong.
If he shoots 35% from 3 he can be moderately successful. Devonte Graham shot 38% from the field last year, but his ts was 538. He shot 9.3 3's per game at 37%.

I think Cliff will want Cole to get a bunch of 3's up. They'll probably play him mostly off the ball, unless someone is injured.

I bet the Heat thought they could pick him. One he was training in Miami, two they have no backup pg.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#696 » by Def Swami » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:48 am

Knightro wrote:Opening Night Rotation

Fultz-Fournier-Ennis-Gordon-Vucevic start
MCW-Ross-Aminu-Birch off bench

Kill me :lol:

This is assuredly what will happen. It's a huge waste of all our times.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#697 » by Bensational » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:48 am

Bakomagic wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:

Massive downgrade?

DJ was

10.5 pts
4.6 ast
2.1 reb

40% from the field
35% from 3P
47% true shooting


I’d be really disappointed if Cole is not slightly better than DJ defensively.

So what numbers do you see Cole averaging cuz DJ’s mediocre stats do leave much room for anyone to be a massive downgrade.


Individual stats are only one way to analyse a player and they don't often tell you how well they impact those around them. Despite everyone's criticisms, he was a positive impact on almost every player when looking at lineups. He helped lift the bench last season, and he helped steady the starters the season before.



I agree 100% with your individual stats argument!

Always best to look at context, we should also use that attitude when looking at Anthony’s year at UNC too.

Either way the crux of the argument whether Cole will be a massive downgrade this year and I just don’t think that Will be the case so I wanted to get an idea of what numbers or statistics or whatever performance metrics would Cole have to be at for him to be considered a massive downgrade.


For Cole to gain Clifford's trust he will have to first come in and show he can give Clifford what he likes - minimal turnovers, smart shots, effort on defense.

I think Cole is professional enough to slow himself down and play that style versus what he showed at UNC. He will still chuck a lot of bad shots - let's get that clear right now - but to start I think he plays off the ball mostly, moving around the perimeter. From there I think they try improve his PnR play and get him to use his shooters more frequently for kick out options.

I actually think Clifford will let Cole get away with more bad shots than he does other players as long as Cole plays hard on defense. He's been happy to let MCW run free for similar reasons.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#698 » by Bensational » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:52 am

Def Swami wrote:
Knightro wrote:Opening Night Rotation

Fultz-Fournier-Ennis-Gordon-Vucevic start
MCW-Ross-Aminu-Birch off bench

Kill me :lol:

This is assuredly what will happen. It's a huge waste of all our times.


I reckon if someone released a line of non-Magic merch for Magic fans and sold enough of it, it would get their attention.

Like a line of t-shirts or jerseys for "The Orlando" with "REBUILD" as the player name and number 2021 or something. Release it on a crowdfunding platform so total number of sales can be seen by Magic management and hope they get the picture.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#699 » by PrimeThyme » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:03 am

If Okeke can't beat out Aminu for minutes then we will have to cut our losses now. Aminu is absolutely washed && just suffered a knee injury to top it off. If Okeke's skill set is as advertised he will play 20 plus minutes a night for this team. He's the young guy I'm least worried about finding consistent minutes.

There is easily a world where Bamba and Cole find themselves completely out of the rotation for large parts of this season.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team" 

Post#700 » by Xatticus » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:11 am

Knightro wrote:Legitimate questions...

Does Clifford opt to use Michael Carter-Williams as his backup point guard?

I thought MCW really thrived playing as a wing last year, but Augustin also played 25 minutes a game so there are a lot of minutes to fill.

Do we really think Clifford is going to opt to give those minutes to Cole Anthony?

I suppose Fultz's minutes could be bumped up from 28 MPG too.


It’s interesting. I think we are actually really thin at PG. MCW isn’t really a PG in the traditional sense. And if we are being honest, neither is Anthony. If the purpose is to develop Anthony, then this has to be a positive. If Augustin was brought back instead of MCW, I don’t think Anthony would have the ball much at all.

MCW’s game almost guarantees that he is going to miss time. He’s much too aggressive to rely on him being healthy for 72 games. That said, I’m sure that Clifford will only play Anthony as much as he has to if he is hurting the team on the floor. I think a bunch of guys will see a bump in minutes with Augustin gone and Isaac out. I’m expecting more buddy ball this year than we’ve ever seen previously.
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