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Bergmaniac wrote:We've already started using AG as the main ballhandler, not a good sign for Clifford's trust in Cole's PG skills.

And he just can't get any separation against NBA level defenders, which for a guy his size is absolutely essential for being a non-terrible scorer.

Still very early on, of course, he may turn it around, but so far things don't look at all.

But when we drafted him were really expecting that? My vison for him was always a spark plug off the bench with some small ball handling responsibility here and there. I wanted him on the floor with either Fultz or MCW at all times. Both of them are out so now we are thursting him into a role he shouldnt be in this early.The starting PG is the deepest most competitive position in the league. Hes not ready for this. I think hes handled himself defensivly way better then Id expect. Offensivly hes been awful aside from FT shooting. The sample size is still too small. Like you said its too early. Either his shooting numbers are gonna improve or his FT shooting is gonna fall. A 90% FT shooter and 11% 3pt shooter just doesnt match lol.

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Bergmaniac wrote:We've already started using AG as the main ballhandler, not a good sign for Clifford's trust in Cole's PG skills.

And he just can't get any separation against NBA level defenders, which for a guy his size is absolutely essential for being a non-terrible scorer.

Still very early on, of course, he may turn it around, but so far things don't look at all.

Just to pushback on the Gordon primary ball handler thing, IMO it's a mistake by Clifford in a misguided effort to win more games.

The Magic had their worst game of the year in terms of live ball turnovers with the offense running primarily through Gordon and Vucevic. Both of those guys are secondary playmakers, not primary ones.

You may well be right it's a mistake by Clifford, but it shows he doesn't trust Cole's PG skills yet.

But if the high turnover numbers continue, Clifford will probably stop the experiment, he's always emphasized turnover prevention in the teams he's coached. Or it might have been a one game experiment due to Cole being guarded by one of the best PG defenders in the league Jrue Holiday. I didn't watch the Dallas game, who was the primary ball handler in that one?

IllMagic04 wrote:

Bergmaniac wrote:We've already started using AG as the main ballhandler, not a good sign for Clifford's trust in Cole's PG skills.

And he just can't get any separation against NBA level defenders, which for a guy his size is absolutely essential for being a non-terrible scorer.

Still very early on, of course, he may turn it around, but so far things don't look at all.

But when we drafted him were really expecting that? My vison for him was always a spark plug off the bench with some small ball handling responsibility here and there. I wanted him on the floor with either Fultz or MCW at all times. Both of them are out so now we are thursting him into a role he shouldnt be in this early.The starting PG is the deepest most competitive position in the league. Hes not ready for this. I think hes handled himself defensivly way better then Id expect. Offensivly hes been awful aside from FT shooting. The sample size is still too small. Like you said its too early. Either his shooting numbers are gonna improve or his FT shooting is gonna fall. A 90% FT shooter and 11% 3pt shooter just doesnt match lol.

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I agree his upside when we drafted him was an off the bench scorer. Lou Williams, or hopefully a better version of his most common draft comp, Austin Rivers.
The problem is that everyone (including the FO) that is on this play hard, grind it out, and draft well narrative, you don't get to then say, oh Cole is fine, he is going to evolve into a solid back up.
If we say we are going to find our talent at the 15th pick each year, then we have to find starters, or high quality rotation players. We don't get to have it both. ways.

Cole had some good preseason games, but he is exactly what the scouting reports said at this point. I do think he will continue to get better, but the folks that thought we drafted an all star during the preseason were misled. He could evolve into that player, but that is not who he is now.

Cole is also a year older than most of the other Freshman rookies. There was a reason why he was available at 15, and many had him pegged in the 20s. This wasn't some brilliant pick that the FO made, like people were painting it in the preseason. Cole has a lot of work ahead him.

drsd wrote:

ucfmay2000 wrote:Terrible pick. Same story for the last 3-4 years. Told you guys, this team front office is just Garbage... bad draft picks, overpaid, top ten highest paid team, can’t develop young players....

At #16 a team is drafting for a long-term bench player. Anthony so far has illustrated he can grow in to a 15 mpg backup PG. So how is this a terrible pick?


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I don’t think you are ever drafting for a long-term bench player. You are trying to acquire players that help you win games. It’s troubling that San Antonio has a far more impressive young core than we do given the disparity in relative draft positions.

ucfmay2000 wrote:Maxey and Saddiq Bey are better.

There was a better player available than who was selected as the overall #1 in the 1984 draft; but that does not mean that Houston made a bad pick.


For Orlando:
2020: it is way to early to judge any of these picks. That said, Jordan Nwora, Tyrese Maxey, Xavier Tillman, Payton Pritchard, and Saddiq Bey all look like steals so far.
By PER, Anthony is currently the 19th best rookie. So, not far off from a #16 draft slot. (Okeke is 21st on the PER list).

2019: Nickeil Alexander-Walker was the one player Orlando will compare to Okeke. In three-year's time we will all see if management was correct, or if Alexander-Walker was the correct pick.

2018: Short of the Magic "trading its roster" to move up for Dončić, or trading down for the rights to Gilgeous-Alexander, if the draft was to happen again (not as a redraft but "on the day"), Orlando still drafts Bamba. That said, Collin Sexton looks like he would have been a better choice retrospectively. (of course, then Orlando does not trade a packet of crisps for Fultz).

2017: Neither Donovan Mitchell nor Bam Adebayo were on anyone's radar at #6, so Isaac was the correct choice.

2016: Orlando drafted correctly in selecting Domantas Sabonis. (he's shooting 41% with the three-ball right now; just so we can all cry a little bit).

2015: Mario Hezonja: ahh. I hated the pick real-time, and this has only lowered with age. That said, Orlando passed on - in order - Willie Cauley-Stein, Emmanuel Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, and Frank Kaminsky so actually this was not a bad pick. There was some feeling that Justise Winslow was the right guy, and retrospectively he is probably who the Magic would select. Booker was not on anyone's radar.

2014: Aaron Gordon was the correct selection.

2013: Victor Oladipo was the correct selection.

2012: And we exit with the selection at #19 of Andrew Nicholson. Many of you are all probably too young to recall the hype Fab Melo was getting to be tabbed by Orlando at this slot. Hmm.
Retrospectively some dude selected at #20 would be a better choice

Xatticus wrote:I don’t think you are ever drafting for a long-term bench player. You are trying to acquire players that help you win games. It’s troubling that San Antonio has a far more impressive young core than we do given the disparity in relative draft positions.

I really disagree that good-to-elite teams are avoiding drafting for bench depth. Rookies are cheap and after the lottery-level e player is usually not going to develop to anything beyond what is seen.

For me: When Denver drafted Mitchell and Miami drafted Adebayo in 2017, I cannot think they imagined they were drafting all-stars. For example. Both had an NBA-transferable skill to help their teams "win-now".


..

drsd wrote:

ucfmay2000 wrote:Maxey and Saddiq Bey are better.

There was a better player available than who was selected as the overall #1 in the 1984 draft; but that does not mean that Houston made a bad pick.


For Orlando:
2020: it is way to early to judge any of these picks. That said, Jordan Nwora, Tyrese Maxey, Xavier Tillman, Payton Pritchard, and Saddiq Bey all look like steals so far.
By PER, Anthony is currently the 19th best rookie. So, not far off from a #16 draft slot. (Okeke is 21st on the PER list).

2019: Nickeil Alexander-Walker was the one player Orlando will compare to Okeke. In three-year's time we will all see if management was correct, or if Alexander-Walker was the correct pick.

2018: Short of the Magic "trading its roster" to move up for Dončić, or trading down for the rights to Gilgeous-Alexander, if the draft was to happen again (not as a redraft but "on the day"), Orlando still drafts Bamba. That said, Collin Sexton looks like he would have been a better choice retrospectively. (of course, then Orlando does not trade a packet of crisps for Fultz).

2017: Neither Donovan Mitchell nor Bam Adebayo were on anyone's radar at #6, so Isaac was the correct choice.

2016: Orlando drafted correctly in selecting Domantas Sabonis. (he's shooting 41% with the three-ball right now; just so we can all cry a little bit).

2015: Mario Hezonja: ahh. I hated the pick real-time, and this has only lowered with age. That said, Orlando passed on - in order - Willie Cauley-Stein, Emmanuel Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, and Frank Kaminsky so actually this was not a bad pick. There was some feeling that Justise Winslow was the right guy, and retrospectively he is probably who the Magic would select. Booker was not on anyone's radar.

2014: Aaron Gordon was the correct selection.

2013: Victor Oladipo was the correct selection.

2012: And we exit with the selection at #19 of Andrew Nicholson. Many of you are all probably too young to recall the hype Fab Melo was getting to be tabbed by Orlando at this slot. Hmm.
Retrospectively some dude selected at #20 would be a better choice

Spoiler:

I’m not counting the Hennigan years. Why? Nobody has claimed he was that bad at drafting. He made bad choices via trade due to immediate pressure of making the playoffs. His selections were mostly decent.

2017- Isaac.
You could argue that nobody had the others on their radar. At face value this pick was “good”. However, 4 years later the pick still makes no sense in terms of roster construction or planning. Merely selecting a player and inserting them into the lineup is the bare minimum of investment. Isaac’s career has already been mired by injuries and nobody can say for certain he’ll ever be healthy enough to make a true impact.

2018- Bamba
Again, no plan here is evident. This is illustrated by the fact he is selected in a stacked draft with Vucevic ultimately being resigned immediately after. Everyone knows this is a wasteful pick due to the fact that backup Centers are not a commodity. Birch was also on the roster. There were many other guard prospects on the board. SGA, Bridges, Porter Jr, DiVincenzo, Lonnie Walker, etc. etc. etc. Horrible pick that not only didn’t make sense, but was terribly planned and the argument against perceived BPA above all else.

2019- Okeke
If every move Orlando made in 2019 signaled “we must make the playoffs for some arbitrary precedent”, then this pick also makes no sense. If the goal was merely to stash this guy for a year of avoiding salary, then that’s a pretty bad decision to make for a selection. Orlando already had Isaac and AG splitting minutes at pf, then they signed Aminu... The biggest glaring deficiencies for the Magic heading into the season were offense and guard/wing depth. Neither of those things were addressed with this pick or their offseason moves. Okeke could become a really good role player - who knows. NAW would be getting a ton of minutes right now considering everyone else is hurt or 3rd string.

2020-
All of those second round picks are proving this FO “utilization” of picks is ridiculous. Instead, they’d rather keep those roster spots open for Clark, Mane, and Bone...
Cole Anthony is a rookie so we can’t say much yet. I probably would have rather they selected Bey considering Fultz was still progressing and Orlando lacks 2/3 outside of Evan and Ross.

Missing in all of this is the lack of direction every year. This FO sucks in the lottery and is worse with their second round “choices”. It’s clear they’ve never had a plan when they’ve spent their lottery picks. Losing in the first round of the playoffs isn’t a consolation for missing out on talent when this roster already has very little.

Xatticus wrote:

drsd wrote:

ucfmay2000 wrote:Terrible pick. Same story for the last 3-4 years. Told you guys, this team front office is just Garbage... bad draft picks, overpaid, top ten highest paid team, can’t develop young players....

At #16 a team is drafting for a long-term bench player. Anthony so far has illustrated he can grow in to a 15 mpg backup PG. So how is this a terrible pick?


..

I don’t think you are ever drafting for a long-term bench player. You are trying to acquire players that help you win games. It’s troubling that San Antonio has a far more impressive young core than we do given the disparity in relative draft positions.

Correct your never drafting for a bench player but you do keep floor and upside in mind. Cole has an upside of a alpha go to scorer. A guy who can get buckets is something we desperatly need. So at 15 you roll the dice on what could MAYBE develop into that. If he doesnt then you can still expect a D.J Augistin level back up which is still goid value at 15. If he cant even be that good then you got a bust.

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IllMagic04 wrote:

Xatticus wrote:

drsd wrote:
At #16 a team is drafting for a long-term bench player. Anthony so far has illustrated he can grow in to a 15 mpg backup PG. So how is this a terrible pick?


..

I don’t think you are ever drafting for a long-term bench player. You are trying to acquire players that help you win games. It’s troubling that San Antonio has a far more impressive young core than we do given the disparity in relative draft positions.

Correct your never drafting for a bench player but you do keep floor and upside in mind. Cole has an upside of a alpha go to scorer. A guy who can get buckets is something we desperatly need. So at 15 you roll the dice on what could MAYBE develop into that. If he doesnt then you can still expect a D.J Augistin level back up which is still goid value at 15. If he cant even be that good then you got a bust.

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Getting a player like DJ at #15 is very good in my opinion.

IllMagic04 wrote:

Bergmaniac wrote:We've already started using AG as the main ballhandler, not a good sign for Clifford's trust in Cole's PG skills.

And he just can't get any separation against NBA level defenders, which for a guy his size is absolutely essential for being a non-terrible scorer.

Still very early on, of course, he may turn it around, but so far things don't look at all.

But when we drafted him were really expecting that? My vison for him was always a spark plug off the bench with some small ball handling responsibility here and there. I wanted him on the floor with either Fultz or MCW at all times. Both of them are out so now we are thursting him into a role he shouldnt be in this early.The starting PG is the deepest most competitive position in the league. Hes not ready for this. I think hes handled himself defensivly way better then Id expect. Offensivly hes been awful aside from FT shooting. The sample size is still too small. Like you said its too early. Either his shooting numbers are gonna improve or his FT shooting is gonna fall. A 90% FT shooter and 11% 3pt shooter just doesnt match lol.

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He looks like the worst defender on the team by far tho.

drsd wrote:

Xatticus wrote:I don’t think you are ever drafting for a long-term bench player. You are trying to acquire players that help you win games. It’s troubling that San Antonio has a far more impressive young core than we do given the disparity in relative draft positions.

I really disagree that good-to-elite teams are avoiding drafting for bench depth. Rookies are cheap and after the lottery-level e player is usually not going to develop to anything beyond what is seen.

For me: When Denver drafted Mitchell and Miami drafted Adebayo in 2017, I cannot think they imagined they were drafting all-stars. For example. Both had an NBA-transferable skill to help their teams "win-now".


..

They're drafting to add talent, not for set positions or starter/bench roles. Bam wasn't drafted to be a backup C, he was drafted to be a player who's role would be determined once he shows how he can handle the NBA.

I think it's broadly wrong to assume management or coaches look at a mid FRP and think "this guy will be good as our backup PG" when affordable backups are found in free agency every year.

The Cole was a bad pick talk is way too early. A 20 year old point guard with no summer league and limited camp. He was given a limited role and we were told he would not play off the ball. Now cliff wants him to start and then he takes him off the ball so our power forward can run the show. To me it is not all on Cole and more of a desperate attempt to get wins at the expense once again of developing a player.
Our team is depleted and the lineup is trash. Do we want MCW starting? Have you seen his shooting numbers?
Give Cole and Chuma a break and lets see how they grow.

Skin wrote:

IllMagic04 wrote:

Bergmaniac wrote:We've already started using AG as the main ballhandler, not a good sign for Clifford's trust in Cole's PG skills.

And he just can't get any separation against NBA level defenders, which for a guy his size is absolutely essential for being a non-terrible scorer.

Still very early on, of course, he may turn it around, but so far things don't look at all.

But when we drafted him were really expecting that? My vison for him was always a spark plug off the bench with some small ball handling responsibility here and there. I wanted him on the floor with either Fultz or MCW at all times. Both of them are out so now we are thursting him into a role he shouldnt be in this early.The starting PG is the deepest most competitive position in the league. Hes not ready for this. I think hes handled himself defensivly way better then Id expect. Offensivly hes been awful aside from FT shooting. The sample size is still too small. Like you said its too early. Either his shooting numbers are gonna improve or his FT shooting is gonna fall. A 90% FT shooter and 11% 3pt shooter just doesnt match lol.

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He looks like the worst defender on the team by far tho.

I mean we got a team full of defenders so..

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This is the caliber of player to expect picking outside of the lottery. We can't expect to get anyone capable of filling a starting spot.

I'm more disgusted with all the useless seasons dedicated to Henny's guys and trying to get out of the lottery without having collected talent good enough to build a foundation for becoming a contender.

You can't make that jump unless you get a superstar.

Cole's shot selection is the real problem. Either he gets it and understand the game or he doesn't. It definitely needs some work. But I am not giving up on Cole yet. Hope he works hard

Magicfanatic82 wrote:The Cole was a bad pick talk is way too early. A 20 year old point guard with no summer league and limited camp. He was given a limited role and we were told he would not play off the ball. Now cliff wants him to start and then he takes him off the ball so our power forward can run the show. To me it is not all on Cole and more of a desperate attempt to get wins at the expense once again of developing a player.
Our team is depleted and the lineup is trash. Do we want MCW starting? Have you seen his shooting numbers?
Give Cole and Chuma a break and lets see how they grow.

Agreed with every point.
A couple thoughts.

1) Not only did Anthony miss his NBA development time; he missed his NCAA development time. Basically Orlando has a high-school-trained player starting at PG.

2) Regarding Carter-Williams: yes I would rather he was starting. But at the Magic lack SFs and as Carter-Williams is inured, this is a moo-point; it's like a cow's opinion. It's moo. So Orlando will ride Anthony and Bone to loss after loss.

MasterGMer wrote:Cole's shot selection is the real problem. Either he gets it and understand the game or he doesn't. It definitely needs some work. But I am not giving up on Cole yet. Hope he works hard

I agree. But this is largely placed on the lack of a Summer camp, no real training camp, and a dearth of pre-season games.
Frankly Anthony is "learning on the job."

drsd wrote:

Magicfanatic82 wrote:The Cole was a bad pick talk is way too early. A 20 year old point guard with no summer league and limited camp. He was given a limited role and we were told he would not play off the ball. Now cliff wants him to start and then he takes him off the ball so our power forward can run the show. To me it is not all on Cole and more of a desperate attempt to get wins at the expense once again of developing a player.
Our team is depleted and the lineup is trash. Do we want MCW starting? Have you seen his shooting numbers?
Give Cole and Chuma a break and lets see how they grow.

Agreed with every point.
A couple thoughts.

1) Not only did Anthony miss his NBA development time; he missed his NCAA development time. Basically Orlando has a high-school-trained player starting at PG.

2) Regarding Carter-Williams: yes I would rather he was starting. But at the Magic lack SFs and as Carter-Williams is inured, this is a moo-point; it's like a cow's opinion. It's moo. So Orlando will ride Anthony and Bone to loss after loss.

MasterGMer wrote:Cole's shot selection is the real problem. Either he gets it and understand the game or he doesn't. It definitely needs some work. But I am not giving up on Cole yet. Hope he works hard

I agree. But this is largely placed on the lack of a Summer camp, no real training camp, and a dearth of pre-season games.
Frankly Anthony is "learning on the job."

i see what you did there

If Cole doesn't get his head above water in next month or so, we're should see a trade for temporary vet starter at PG. We can't let the poor guy drown, that is not what talent development should be like.

drsd wrote:

basketballRob wrote:Cole wasn't my first choice, but i think he's a way better shooter than he's shown.

When Fournier returns, we can see how Anthony evolves when he is freed up for more open looks (because Fournier is on the court).

I guess this is the rotation moving forward:

Anthony/Carter-Williams/Bone
Fourier/Ross/Mané
Bacon/Ennis
Gordon/Okeke/Clark
Vučević/Birch/Bamba

Fournier may not even play much this year. I think he's looking to preserve himself for a contract next year.

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