Run it back again?!?!?!

[zaymon]

The point is that the vets on this team are not the future of this franchise. The combination of AG/Fournier/Vuc has legitimately proven not to work 7 years running. Therefore, there is no reason to keep rolling them out together assuming anything will change. We had the healthiest season ever two years ago and we still hit a ceiling.

Maybe people forgot that the Dwight era identity was built solely around our #1 pick, and vets were later added. The chances of “landing” a go-to cornerstone superstar talent, while fielding a roster picking 10-15, are slimmer compared to picking top 5.

No, you can’t determine factors for injuries, trades, and steals. However, you also don’t roll out the same mediocre offense 7 years running expecting wildly different results earning anything other than a #8+ pick. I don’t understand the fascination with keeping these players, while remaining a fringe playoff team, to the detriment of the future pick odds.

Can you really say with a straight face that the 2017-2018 season was more important as a learning experience than landing Luka Doncic? The answer is no. Orlando could have traded all of their mediocre pieces if you knew Doncic was a reality. That’s one example only.

You’re not being realistic with how team building works with your “family environment” example. Milwaukee doesn’t become a perennial contender without drafting Giannis. They don’t draw talent to that city without him. They aren’t a free agent destination without him. They retain their talent if they keep him. That’s why they are doing everything possible to appease him. Orlando is no different. Players want to win.

Orlando MUST draft that level of talent to be a desirable destination. It’s not that complicated.

I think you are too obsessed with one team building option. I am not saying your strategy wont work, becouse it did in the past, but there is more than one viable team building strategy nowadays. Full rebuild works more often when you have star players to trade. Last time we had McGrady, than Howard, Weltman had no one with value. 76ers process model is mostly destroyed by changed lottery odds.

I agree that our future is not about AG, Fournier and Vucevic. I dont think you will find one person here who believes that. There is still a question though how long they will remain useful and when is the perfect time to flip them. All 3 of them present combination of size and skill.
You want to tank, but for the last 2 years we were able to aquire two lottery talent players who Weltman targeted. Why tank if you can pick the players you wanted in the middle of the first round ? There are teams build around mid first round talent ( Heat, Warriors, Bucks, Nuggets, Jazz).

I dont expect Fournier/Vucevic offense to lead us much longer. In his latest interview asked about Fultz/Anthony combination Clifford said that he eventually envisions us playing with two good pick and roll players similar to Raptors.

Look its not that we have no young talent. I know you are low on them, but maybe it would be wise to give them some time to show what they are capable of ? Its not like we gave Fultz, Anthony and Okeke any chance to succed. Observing Weltman decisions it seems like they think we hit on some rookies, or maybe they just decided we will get more for Gordon and Fournier at the trade deadline.

Too obsessed? I’m being realistic with the available options.

You have to have assets to be able to make trades. Orlando is in a situation where they don’t have a star level player and can’t trade for one going into their prime.

So what’s the best option? The draft. You get 7-8 years of a guy under contract to build a legitimate team. Many teams are doing this now. New Orleans, Boston, Dallas, Memphis, Denver, Atlanta , etc. They land their cornerstone(s) and add from there. Teams like Miami, Brooklyn, LAClippers, have stashed assets and are desirable locations for specific circumstantial situations. Whether or not they pay off is another topic.

Orlando is the former and not the later example. We couldn’t trade or draw these players in free agency. If you believe otherwise, I have a timeshare to sell you in aspen.

What do you mean “why tank if we got middle of the round players?” We drafted Bamba and not Young or Doncic. We drafted Okeke and not Herro, Reddish, or Morant. Recently we drafted Anthony over Killian Hayes and Avdija. I don’t trust our FO’s drafting ability. Therefore, I’d rather they “idiot proof” their picks.

Get the point? We rolled out Vuc/Fournier/and AG wanting “playoffs” at the expense of landing a real star. Not all of those players are cornerstones, but you put yourself in the situation to make it a possibility. You don’t land that cornerstone picking behind teams that have rebuilt in less time. We’ve done it for years and it’s just been wasting time IMO. You wouldn’t claim the last 4 years were building to anything substantial because we are worse off than we were 2 years ago. Not only that, the basketball isn’t even worth watching as a consolation.

I’m not “low” on the talent. I’m judging them through the lens in which they were acquired. Picks #15, #16 and a project big at #6 in a 5 player draft. If they prove to be decent players, great! There is no go-to guy that will attract talent on this roster. These are likely role players - solid starters at best.

I’m not even sure what your argument is anymore. Are you saying that drafting at the top isn’t the best way of landing a cornerstone? Are you saying Orlando lands their next up and coming all star in free agency, in a trade, or in the middle of the draft after 8-10 teams make their selections? If so, history and data says you’re wrong in most cases.

So you want to make it about all stars ? Ok then history and data lets see

Kemba Walker- free agent
Trae Young- draft
Giannis Antetokounmpo- after top 10
Pascal Siakam- after top 10
Joel Embiid- draft
Kyle Lowry- trade
Ben Simmons- draft
Jimmy Butler- free agent
Khris Middleto-trade
Bam Adebayo- after top 10
Jayson Tatum- trade
Domantas Sabonis- trade
James Harden- trade
Luka Dončić- draft
LeBron James- free agent
Kawhi Leonard- free agent
Anthony Davis- trade
Chris Paul- trade
Russell Westbrook- trade
Damian Lillard- draft
Donovan Mitchell- after top 10
Brandon Ingram- trade
Nikola Jokić- after top 10
Rudy Gobert- after top 10
Devin Booker- after top 10

5 all stars aquired by high lottery picks and 20 by free agency, trade or after top 10. Well after changed lottery odds, tanking feels even more "juicy". Like I said you are obssesed with tanking against all history and data.

[MagicMatic]

I think you are too obsessed with one team building option. I am not saying your strategy wont work, becouse it did in the past, but there is more than one viable team building strategy nowadays. Full rebuild works more often when you have star players to trade. Last time we had McGrady, than Howard, Weltman had no one with value. 76ers process model is mostly destroyed by changed lottery odds.

I agree that our future is not about AG, Fournier and Vucevic. I dont think you will find one person here who believes that. There is still a question though how long they will remain useful and when is the perfect time to flip them. All 3 of them present combination of size and skill.
You want to tank, but for the last 2 years we were able to aquire two lottery talent players who Weltman targeted. Why tank if you can pick the players you wanted in the middle of the first round ? There are teams build around mid first round talent ( Heat, Warriors, Bucks, Nuggets, Jazz).

I dont expect Fournier/Vucevic offense to lead us much longer. In his latest interview asked about Fultz/Anthony combination Clifford said that he eventually envisions us playing with two good pick and roll players similar to Raptors.

Look its not that we have no young talent. I know you are low on them, but maybe it would be wise to give them some time to show what they are capable of ? Its not like we gave Fultz, Anthony and Okeke any chance to succed. Observing Weltman decisions it seems like they think we hit on some rookies, or maybe they just decided we will get more for Gordon and Fournier at the trade deadline.

Too obsessed? I’m being realistic with the available options.

You have to have assets to be able to make trades. Orlando is in a situation where they don’t have a star level player and can’t trade for one going into their prime.

So what’s the best option? The draft. You get 7-8 years of a guy under contract to build a legitimate team. Many teams are doing this now. New Orleans, Boston, Dallas, Memphis, Denver, Atlanta , etc. They land their cornerstone(s) and add from there. Teams like Miami, Brooklyn, LAClippers, have stashed assets and are desirable locations for specific circumstantial situations. Whether or not they pay off is another topic.

Orlando is the former and not the later example. We couldn’t trade or draw these players in free agency. If you believe otherwise, I have a timeshare to sell you in aspen.

What do you mean “why tank if we got middle of the round players?” We drafted Bamba and not Young or Doncic. We drafted Okeke and not Herro, Reddish, or Morant. Recently we drafted Anthony over Killian Hayes and Avdija. I don’t trust our FO’s drafting ability. Therefore, I’d rather they “idiot proof” their picks.

Get the point? We rolled out Vuc/Fournier/and AG wanting “playoffs” at the expense of landing a real star. Not all of those players are cornerstones, but you put yourself in the situation to make it a possibility. You don’t land that cornerstone picking behind teams that have rebuilt in less time. We’ve done it for years and it’s just been wasting time IMO. You wouldn’t claim the last 4 years were building to anything substantial because we are worse off than we were 2 years ago. Not only that, the basketball isn’t even worth watching as a consolation.

I’m not “low” on the talent. I’m judging them through the lens in which they were acquired. Picks #15, #16 and a project big at #6 in a 5 player draft. If they prove to be decent players, great! There is no go-to guy that will attract talent on this roster. These are likely role players - solid starters at best.

I’m not even sure what your argument is anymore. Are you saying that drafting at the top isn’t the best way of landing a cornerstone? Are you saying Orlando lands their next up and coming all star in free agency, in a trade, or in the middle of the draft after 8-10 teams make their selections? If so, history and data says you’re wrong in most cases.

So you want to make it about all stars ? Ok then history and data lets see

Kemba Walker- free agent
Trae Young- draft
Giannis Antetokounmpo- after top 10
Pascal Siakam- after top 10
Joel Embiid- draft
Kyle Lowry- trade
Ben Simmons- draft
Jimmy Butler- free agent
Khris Middleto-trade
Bam Adebayo- after top 10
Jayson Tatum- trade
Domantas Sabonis- trade
James Harden- trade
Luka Dončić- draft
LeBron James- free agent
Kawhi Leonard- free agent
Anthony Davis- trade
Chris Paul- trade
Russell Westbrook- trade
Damian Lillard- draft
Donovan Mitchell- after top 10
Brandon Ingram- trade
Nikola Jokić- after top 10
Rudy Gobert- after top 10
Devin Booker- after top 10

5 all stars aquired by high lottery picks and 20 by free agency, trade or after top 10. Well after changed lottery odds, tanking feels even more "juicy". Like I said you are obssesed with tanking against all history and data.

Way to take it out of context.

Sure, let me reiterate. Teams building from scratch in small markets have the draft....i.e Orlando.

You can’t possibly believe Orlando is a player in Free Agency with the names on this list. Is that what you are suggesting? If not, how do you think we are landing players of that level? I’d love to know. It couldn’t be a trade.

The only argument you have with this “data” are the few players taken out of the top 10. I’m not suggesting it’s impossible to find that value later in the draft. I’m suggesting it’s less likely... which is true. Are you refuting the validity of that?

For the billionth time... “tanking” isn’t the same thing as trading players that only net you a middle of the road record. Playing Fultz/Anthony/Okeke/AG/Bamba was voted as more watchable and nets us a 5-10 pick. Is that tanking? That’s up for interpretation.

Does OKC keep Russell Westbrook and Steven Adams knowing full well they aren’t winning ****? No. Their GM cuts his losses and builds again. Funny that idea is foreign to you and our FO. Why would they? So they can miss the playoffs or lose in the first round again to pay past their prime players millions of dollars with no endgame?

You’re either defending that stupid strategy, or you believe Orlando will have an all star in his prime walk through the door. Which is it? They are both bad assumptions that aren’t reality.

[Ducklett]

I think you are too obsessed with one team building option. I am not saying your strategy wont work, becouse it did in the past, but there is more than one viable team building strategy nowadays. Full rebuild works more often when you have star players to trade. Last time we had McGrady, than Howard, Weltman had no one with value. 76ers process model is mostly destroyed by changed lottery odds.

I agree that our future is not about AG, Fournier and Vucevic. I dont think you will find one person here who believes that. There is still a question though how long they will remain useful and when is the perfect time to flip them. All 3 of them present combination of size and skill.
You want to tank, but for the last 2 years we were able to aquire two lottery talent players who Weltman targeted. Why tank if you can pick the players you wanted in the middle of the first round ? There are teams build around mid first round talent ( Heat, Warriors, Bucks, Nuggets, Jazz).

I dont expect Fournier/Vucevic offense to lead us much longer. In his latest interview asked about Fultz/Anthony combination Clifford said that he eventually envisions us playing with two good pick and roll players similar to Raptors.

Look its not that we have no young talent. I know you are low on them, but maybe it would be wise to give them some time to show what they are capable of ? Its not like we gave Fultz, Anthony and Okeke any chance to succed. Observing Weltman decisions it seems like they think we hit on some rookies, or maybe they just decided we will get more for Gordon and Fournier at the trade deadline.

Too obsessed? I’m being realistic with the available options.

You have to have assets to be able to make trades. Orlando is in a situation where they don’t have a star level player and can’t trade for one going into their prime.

So what’s the best option? The draft. You get 7-8 years of a guy under contract to build a legitimate team. Many teams are doing this now. New Orleans, Boston, Dallas, Memphis, Denver, Atlanta , etc. They land their cornerstone(s) and add from there. Teams like Miami, Brooklyn, LAClippers, have stashed assets and are desirable locations for specific circumstantial situations. Whether or not they pay off is another topic.

Orlando is the former and not the later example. We couldn’t trade or draw these players in free agency. If you believe otherwise, I have a timeshare to sell you in aspen.

What do you mean “why tank if we got middle of the round players?” We drafted Bamba and not Young or Doncic. We drafted Okeke and not Herro, Reddish, or Morant. Recently we drafted Anthony over Killian Hayes and Avdija. I don’t trust our FO’s drafting ability. Therefore, I’d rather they “idiot proof” their picks.

Get the point? We rolled out Vuc/Fournier/and AG wanting “playoffs” at the expense of landing a real star. Not all of those players are cornerstones, but you put yourself in the situation to make it a possibility. You don’t land that cornerstone picking behind teams that have rebuilt in less time. We’ve done it for years and it’s just been wasting time IMO. You wouldn’t claim the last 4 years were building to anything substantial because we are worse off than we were 2 years ago. Not only that, the basketball isn’t even worth watching as a consolation.

I’m not “low” on the talent. I’m judging them through the lens in which they were acquired. Picks #15, #16 and a project big at #6 in a 5 player draft. If they prove to be decent players, great! There is no go-to guy that will attract talent on this roster. These are likely role players - solid starters at best.

I’m not even sure what your argument is anymore. Are you saying that drafting at the top isn’t the best way of landing a cornerstone? Are you saying Orlando lands their next up and coming all star in free agency, in a trade, or in the middle of the draft after 8-10 teams make their selections? If so, history and data says you’re wrong in most cases.

So you want to make it about all stars ? Ok then history and data lets see

Kemba Walker- free agent
Trae Young- draft
Giannis Antetokounmpo- after top 10
Pascal Siakam- after top 10
Joel Embiid- draft
Kyle Lowry- trade
Ben Simmons- draft
Jimmy Butler- free agent
Khris Middleto-trade
Bam Adebayo- after top 10
Jayson Tatum- trade
Domantas Sabonis- trade
James Harden- trade
Luka Dončić- draft
LeBron James- free agent
Kawhi Leonard- free agent
Anthony Davis- trade
Chris Paul- trade
Russell Westbrook- trade
Damian Lillard- draft
Donovan Mitchell- after top 10
Brandon Ingram- trade
Nikola Jokić- after top 10
Rudy Gobert- after top 10
Devin Booker- after top 10

5 all stars aquired by high lottery picks and 20 by free agency, trade or after top 10. Well after changed lottery odds, tanking feels even more "juicy". Like I said you are obssesed with tanking against all history and data.

AD was a top 3 pick traded for a top 3 pick in Brandon Ingram.
Jayson Tatum was drafted by the Celtics, I believe they traded for the 3 before he was selected.
Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, and Bam Adebayo were lotto picks.

Post Lotto selections across all these names are:
Giannis (15th pick), Siakam, Middleton, Lowry, Butler, Leonard (15th pick), Jokic, and Gobert.

8/25 = 32% of the allstars were not picked in the lotto. If you were to ignore Leonard and Giannis as they were 15th pick (top half of the 1st round), that would be 24% of allstars.

[Bensational]

Our biggest problem is that we haven't added one player under WeHam who has markedly improved their play and value to a point of becoming a valuable asset for a legitimate upgrade.

We have a bunch of reclamation projects which yet to prove they are reclaimed, and veterans who never seem to draw enough value to make a trade happen.

The team needs to hit on at least one young player for the future, and no, Isaac doesn't qualify with his history of health. That leaves us with Fultz, Bamba, Okeke and Cole to outplay their value this season. But, they're all fighting those veterans for minutes and touches, under a coach who's desperate for the playoffs.

How to add a player that elevates this team's future could be via draft, free agency, or trade. But, WeHam have yet to hit in 4 drafts, JSimmons, Birch, MCW, Ennis and Bacon are the calibre of FA additions we bring in, and Fultz is our only notable trade addition.

[Skin]

Too obsessed? I’m being realistic with the available options.

You have to have assets to be able to make trades. Orlando is in a situation where they don’t have a star level player and can’t trade for one going into their prime.

So what’s the best option? The draft. You get 7-8 years of a guy under contract to build a legitimate team. Many teams are doing this now. New Orleans, Boston, Dallas, Memphis, Denver, Atlanta , etc. They land their cornerstone(s) and add from there. Teams like Miami, Brooklyn, LAClippers, have stashed assets and are desirable locations for specific circumstantial situations. Whether or not they pay off is another topic.

Orlando is the former and not the later example. We couldn’t trade or draw these players in free agency. If you believe otherwise, I have a timeshare to sell you in aspen.

What do you mean “why tank if we got middle of the round players?” We drafted Bamba and not Young or Doncic. We drafted Okeke and not Herro, Reddish, or Morant. Recently we drafted Anthony over Killian Hayes and Avdija. I don’t trust our FO’s drafting ability. Therefore, I’d rather they “idiot proof” their picks.

Get the point? We rolled out Vuc/Fournier/and AG wanting “playoffs” at the expense of landing a real star. Not all of those players are cornerstones, but you put yourself in the situation to make it a possibility. You don’t land that cornerstone picking behind teams that have rebuilt in less time. We’ve done it for years and it’s just been wasting time IMO. You wouldn’t claim the last 4 years were building to anything substantial because we are worse off than we were 2 years ago. Not only that, the basketball isn’t even worth watching as a consolation.

I’m not “low” on the talent. I’m judging them through the lens in which they were acquired. Picks #15, #16 and a project big at #6 in a 5 player draft. If they prove to be decent players, great! There is no go-to guy that will attract talent on this roster. These are likely role players - solid starters at best.

I’m not even sure what your argument is anymore. Are you saying that drafting at the top isn’t the best way of landing a cornerstone? Are you saying Orlando lands their next up and coming all star in free agency, in a trade, or in the middle of the draft after 8-10 teams make their selections? If so, history and data says you’re wrong in most cases.

So you want to make it about all stars ? Ok then history and data lets see

Kemba Walker- free agent
Trae Young- draft
Giannis Antetokounmpo- after top 10
Pascal Siakam- after top 10
Joel Embiid- draft
Kyle Lowry- trade
Ben Simmons- draft
Jimmy Butler- free agent
Khris Middleto-trade
Bam Adebayo- after top 10
Jayson Tatum- trade
Domantas Sabonis- trade
James Harden- trade
Luka Dončić- draft
LeBron James- free agent
Kawhi Leonard- free agent
Anthony Davis- trade
Chris Paul- trade
Russell Westbrook- trade
Damian Lillard- draft
Donovan Mitchell- after top 10
Brandon Ingram- trade
Nikola Jokić- after top 10
Rudy Gobert- after top 10
Devin Booker- after top 10

5 all stars aquired by high lottery picks and 20 by free agency, trade or after top 10. Well after changed lottery odds, tanking feels even more "juicy". Like I said you are obssesed with tanking against all history and data.

AD was a top 3 pick traded for a top 3 pick in Brandon Ingram.
Jayson Tatum was drafted by the Celtics, I believe they traded for the 3 before he was selected.
Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, and Bam Adebayo were lotto picks.

Post Lotto selections across all these names are:
Giannis (15th pick), Siakam, Middleton, Lowry, Butler, Leonard (15th pick), Jokic, and Gobert.

8/25 = 32% of the allstars were not picked in the lotto. If you were to ignore Leonard and Giannis as they were 15th pick (top half of the 1st round), that would be 24% of allstars.

Yeah I was about to say... you can't classify "trades" as not being influenced by high draft picks. Talk about trying fool people. Jeez that was bad.

[Skin]

Our biggest problem is that we haven't added one player under WeHam who has markedly improved their play and value to a point of becoming a valuable asset for a legitimate upgrade.

We have a bunch of reclamation projects which yet to prove they are reclaimed, and veterans who never seem to draw enough value to make a trade happen.

The team needs to hit on at least one young player for the future, and no, Isaac doesn't qualify with his history of health. That leaves us with Fultz, Bamba, Okeke and Cole to outplay their value this season. But, they're all fighting those veterans for minutes and touches, under a coach who's desperate for the playoffs.

How to add a player that elevates this team's future could be via draft, free agency, or trade. But, WeHam have yet to hit in 4 drafts, JSimmons, Birch, MCW, Ennis and Bacon are the calibre of FA additions we bring in, and Fultz is our only notable trade addition.

That's because WeHam doesn't feel any pressure for their draft picks to perform. He talks as if he has a 10 year contract and maybe secretly he does.

[oldncreaky]

In the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss-

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I am at the acceptance stage for the Orlando Magic. Accept we are garbage treadmill team for the next 5-6 years, find another team to support in the meantime so basketball can be joyous to watch, and if some day in our lifetime there is a Magic front office with a pulse and drive to win a championship, then I will start to feel passionate and worked up again. I just can't do this year in and year out with no hope or a pathway to success.

I can't think of a more boring and irrelevant team in the NBA.

I feel for you. I felt the same way about the Pistons after Joe Dumars rolled out a team with Charlie Villanueava, Kwame Brown and 6 or 7 SGs. Ironically, Dumars had a great record as a GM when Hammond was his assistant GM, and a horrible record after Hammond left.

After a few seasons as a vagabond on League Pass, I settled on Lowry and the Raptors as the team to follow in 2015-16, and I've been happy since. Always go for a team with good PG leadership. Even felt like home during the surprising 2019 run. Come on over --- and bring Aaron Gordon if you can!

[zaymon]

Spoiler:

Too obsessed? I’m being realistic with the available options.

You have to have assets to be able to make trades. Orlando is in a situation where they don’t have a star level player and can’t trade for one going into their prime.

So what’s the best option? The draft. You get 7-8 years of a guy under contract to build a legitimate team. Many teams are doing this now. New Orleans, Boston, Dallas, Memphis, Denver, Atlanta , etc. They land their cornerstone(s) and add from there. Teams like Miami, Brooklyn, LAClippers, have stashed assets and are desirable locations for specific circumstantial situations. Whether or not they pay off is another topic.

Orlando is the former and not the later example. We couldn’t trade or draw these players in free agency. If you believe otherwise, I have a timeshare to sell you in aspen.

What do you mean “why tank if we got middle of the round players?” We drafted Bamba and not Young or Doncic. We drafted Okeke and not Herro, Reddish, or Morant. Recently we drafted Anthony over Killian Hayes and Avdija. I don’t trust our FO’s drafting ability. Therefore, I’d rather they “idiot proof” their picks.

Get the point? We rolled out Vuc/Fournier/and AG wanting “playoffs” at the expense of landing a real star. Not all of those players are cornerstones, but you put yourself in the situation to make it a possibility. You don’t land that cornerstone picking behind teams that have rebuilt in less time. We’ve done it for years and it’s just been wasting time IMO. You wouldn’t claim the last 4 years were building to anything substantial because we are worse off than we were 2 years ago. Not only that, the basketball isn’t even worth watching as a consolation.

I’m not “low” on the talent. I’m judging them through the lens in which they were acquired. Picks #15, #16 and a project big at #6 in a 5 player draft. If they prove to be decent players, great! There is no go-to guy that will attract talent on this roster. These are likely role players - solid starters at best.

I’m not even sure what your argument is anymore. Are you saying that drafting at the top isn’t the best way of landing a cornerstone? Are you saying Orlando lands their next up and coming all star in free agency, in a trade, or in the middle of the draft after 8-10 teams make their selections? If so, history and data says you’re wrong in most cases.

So you want to make it about all stars ? Ok then history and data lets see

Kemba Walker- free agent
Trae Young- draft
Giannis Antetokounmpo- after top 10
Pascal Siakam- after top 10
Joel Embiid- draft
Kyle Lowry- trade
Ben Simmons- draft
Jimmy Butler- free agent
Khris Middleto-trade
Bam Adebayo- after top 10
Jayson Tatum- trade
Domantas Sabonis- trade
James Harden- trade
Luka Dončić- draft
LeBron James- free agent
Kawhi Leonard- free agent
Anthony Davis- trade
Chris Paul- trade
Russell Westbrook- trade
Damian Lillard- draft
Donovan Mitchell- after top 10
Brandon Ingram- trade
Nikola Jokić- after top 10
Rudy Gobert- after top 10
Devin Booker- after top 10

5 all stars aquired by high lottery picks and 20 by free agency, trade or after top 10. Well after changed lottery odds, tanking feels even more "juicy". Like I said you are obssesed with tanking against all history and data.

Way to take it out of context.

Sure, let me reiterate. Teams building from scratch in small markets have the draft....i.e Orlando.

You can’t possibly believe Orlando is a player in Free Agency with the names on this list. Is that what you are suggesting? If not, how do you think we are landing players of that level? I’d love to know. It couldn’t be a trade.

The only argument you have with this “data” are the few players taken out of the top 10. I’m not suggesting it’s impossible to find that value later in the draft. I’m suggesting it’s less likely... which is true. Are you refuting the validity of that?

For the billionth time... “tanking” isn’t the same thing as trading players that only net you a middle of the road record. Playing Fultz/Anthony/Okeke/AG/Bamba was voted as more watchable and nets us a 5-10 pick. Is that tanking? That’s up for interpretation.

Does OKC keep Russell Westbrook and Steven Adams knowing full well they aren’t winning ****? No. Their GM cuts his losses and builds again. Funny that idea is foreign to you and our FO. Why would they? So they can miss the playoffs or lose in the first round again to pay past their prime players millions of dollars with no endgame?

You’re either defending that stupid strategy, or you believe Orlando will have an all star in his prime walk through the door. Which is it? They are both bad assumptions that aren’t reality.

Long story short, you believe only viable strategy for us right now is tanking. You dont believe in odds, its all black or white in your world. You block all the information and data presenting other possible directions and you move the goalpost on your arguments to match your agenda. I dont have desire to challenge your constantly changing arguments about all stars, free agents and trades. Now even our veterans are magically are past their prime. Signing Mcgrady, Lewis and Hill never happened and OKC didnt treadmill with Westbrook and without young talent like we have right now until George ended that madness.

Lets move into other direction becouse we had the discussion above many times. What teams are benefiting the most with changed lottery odds ?

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

In the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss-

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I am at the acceptance stage for the Orlando Magic. Accept we are garbage treadmill team for the next 5-6 years, find another team to support in the meantime so basketball can be joyous to watch, and if some day in our lifetime there is a Magic front office with a pulse and drive to win a championship, then I will start to feel passionate and worked up again. I just can't do this year in and year out with no hope or a pathway to success.

I can't think of a more boring and irrelevant team in the NBA.

I feel for you. I felt the same way about the Pistons after Joe Dumars rolled out a team with Charlie Villanueava, Kwame Brown and 6 or 7 SGs. Ironically, Dumars had a great record as a GM when Hammond was his assistant GM, and a horrible record after Hammond left.

After a few seasons as a vagabond on League Pass, I settled on Lowry and the Raptors as the team to follow in 2015-16, and I've been happy since. Always go for a team with good PG leadership. Even felt like home during the surprising 2019 run. Come on over --- and bring Aaron Gordon if you can!

I will root for the Raptors this season since they are in Tampa and have an interesting team and an ownership group and front office that prioritize winning over whatever this garbage of a front office we have in Orlando. Great to finally see 2 winning franchises in Florida!

[basketballRob]

In the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss-

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I am at the acceptance stage for the Orlando Magic. Accept we are garbage treadmill team for the next 5-6 years, find another team to support in the meantime so basketball can be joyous to watch, and if some day in our lifetime there is a Magic front office with a pulse and drive to win a championship, then I will start to feel passionate and worked up again. I just can't do this year in and year out with no hope or a pathway to success.

I can't think of a more boring and irrelevant team in the NBA.

I feel for you. I felt the same way about the Pistons after Joe Dumars rolled out a team with Charlie Villanueava, Kwame Brown and 6 or 7 SGs. Ironically, Dumars had a great record as a GM when Hammond was his assistant GM, and a horrible record after Hammond left.

After a few seasons as a vagabond on League Pass, I settled on Lowry and the Raptors as the team to follow in 2015-16, and I've been happy since. Always go for a team with good PG leadership. Even felt like home during the surprising 2019 run. Come on over --- and bring Aaron Gordon if you can!

I will root for the Raptors this season since they are in Tampa and have an interesting team and an ownership group and front office that prioritize winning over whatever this garbage of a front office we have in Orlando. Great to finally see 2 winning franchises in Florida!

Enjoy them, have a great day.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[Ducklett]

I think we are at the point in the Magic's history where all the fair weather fans leave because we are treadmill and they will all be back in 2030 when the plan starts to make us good again.

Or we could just fire and trade everyone and see what happens. Can that really be worse than perennial 9th seeds?

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

I think we are at the point in the Magic's history where all the fair weather fans leave because we are treadmill and they will all be back in 2030 when the plan starts to make us good again.

Or we could just fire and trade everyone and see what happens. Can that really be worse than perennial 9th seeds?

No. This lack of direction is enough for me. Why continuing to support this garbage when there is no hope in sight. Only hope is we suck so hard that management is forced to change but even then, they are so arrogant and blind, I doubt they would even care. Their excuse is going to be "we will wait for Isaac". Utter joke of a front office.

[Skybox]

I think we are at the point in the Magic's history where all the fair weather fans leave because we are treadmill and they will all be back in 2030 when the plan starts to make us good again.

Or we could just fire and trade everyone and see what happens. Can that really be worse than perennial 9th seeds?

Any fair weather fans are already long gone...the last two seasons have been the best we've seen in a while. Fans are gone this season either way, so take a swing WeHam!

[MagicMatic]

Spoiler:

So you want to make it about all stars ? Ok then history and data lets see

Kemba Walker- free agent
Trae Young- draft
Giannis Antetokounmpo- after top 10
Pascal Siakam- after top 10
Joel Embiid- draft
Kyle Lowry- trade
Ben Simmons- draft
Jimmy Butler- free agent
Khris Middleto-trade
Bam Adebayo- after top 10
Jayson Tatum- trade
Domantas Sabonis- trade
James Harden- trade
Luka Dončić- draft
LeBron James- free agent
Kawhi Leonard- free agent
Anthony Davis- trade
Chris Paul- trade
Russell Westbrook- trade
Damian Lillard- draft
Donovan Mitchell- after top 10
Brandon Ingram- trade
Nikola Jokić- after top 10
Rudy Gobert- after top 10
Devin Booker- after top 10

5 all stars aquired by high lottery picks and 20 by free agency, trade or after top 10. Well after changed lottery odds, tanking feels even more "juicy". Like I said you are obssesed with tanking against all history and data.

Way to take it out of context.

Sure, let me reiterate. Teams building from scratch in small markets have the draft....i.e Orlando.

You can’t possibly believe Orlando is a player in Free Agency with the names on this list. Is that what you are suggesting? If not, how do you think we are landing players of that level? I’d love to know. It couldn’t be a trade.

The only argument you have with this “data” are the few players taken out of the top 10. I’m not suggesting it’s impossible to find that value later in the draft. I’m suggesting it’s less likely... which is true. Are you refuting the validity of that?

For the billionth time... “tanking” isn’t the same thing as trading players that only net you a middle of the road record. Playing Fultz/Anthony/Okeke/AG/Bamba was voted as more watchable and nets us a 5-10 pick. Is that tanking? That’s up for interpretation.

Does OKC keep Russell Westbrook and Steven Adams knowing full well they aren’t winning ****? No. Their GM cuts his losses and builds again. Funny that idea is foreign to you and our FO. Why would they? So they can miss the playoffs or lose in the first round again to pay past their prime players millions of dollars with no endgame?

You’re either defending that stupid strategy, or you believe Orlando will have an all star in his prime walk through the door. Which is it? They are both bad assumptions that aren’t reality.

Long story short, you believe only viable strategy for us right now is tanking. You dont believe in odds, its all black or white in your world. You block all the information and data presenting other possible directions and you move the goalpost on your arguments to match your agenda. I dont have desire to challenge your constantly changing arguments about all stars, free agents and trades. Now even our veterans are magically are past their prime. Signing Mcgrady, Lewis and Hill never happened and OKC didnt treadmill with Westbrook and without young talent like we have right now until George ended that madness.

Lets move into other direction becouse we had the discussion above many times. What teams are benefiting the most with changed lottery odds ?

Not sure what you’re talking about. I’ve been consistent with my viewpoint, and the direction of this team, since Dwight was traded. I’m not blocking out data, you are.
Here I’ll lay it all out for you here in this post:

Orlando has only been relevant as a franchise when they’ve selected near the top of the draft. (Dwight, Shaq, Penny). They’ve been middle of the road or bottom of the barrel when they haven’t relied on those players.

Orlando has only landed big free agents when those teams were led by those aforementioned players. The only example otherwise EVER was when Hill and McGrady decided to come together. We historically overpaid Rashard Lewis at the time, but wouldn’t have even had the chance of a meeting without Dwight.

What you seem not to understand is that it’s not about tanking. Why? Because the lottery odds don’t play in favor of it as much. That’s why I’ve never once suggested rolling out the worst possible roster to do it. There is a grey zone and it ISN'T black and white. What I’m suggesting is ditching the obvious players that post their numbers willing us to fringe playoff territory.

Vuc and Evan will never be on a championship contending team in Orlando ... ever.... so why then are we watching them for 7 years lead us to mediocrity while we pretend landing in the middle of the road every year is beneficial to us somehow? Is wanting them off this team, to get better draft odds, considered outright tanking? I don’t believe so. You could roll out Fultz,Anthony, Okeke/Ross, AG, Bamba and let the chips fall where they may.

You no longer need the worst record to land top picks. However, you also just don’t make the playoffs only to get swept and pretend it’s for some “magically” intrinsic benefit that makes you feel good. If you aren’t contending for championships, you are trying as much as possible to get better talent in order to do so. Orlando is doing neither.

[zaymon]

Spoiler:

Way to take it out of context.

Sure, let me reiterate. Teams building from scratch in small markets have the draft....i.e Orlando.

You can’t possibly believe Orlando is a player in Free Agency with the names on this list. Is that what you are suggesting? If not, how do you think we are landing players of that level? I’d love to know. It couldn’t be a trade.

The only argument you have with this “data” are the few players taken out of the top 10. I’m not suggesting it’s impossible to find that value later in the draft. I’m suggesting it’s less likely... which is true. Are you refuting the validity of that?

For the billionth time... “tanking” isn’t the same thing as trading players that only net you a middle of the road record. Playing Fultz/Anthony/Okeke/AG/Bamba was voted as more watchable and nets us a 5-10 pick. Is that tanking? That’s up for interpretation.

Does OKC keep Russell Westbrook and Steven Adams knowing full well they aren’t winning ****? No. Their GM cuts his losses and builds again. Funny that idea is foreign to you and our FO. Why would they? So they can miss the playoffs or lose in the first round again to pay past their prime players millions of dollars with no endgame?

You’re either defending that stupid strategy, or you believe Orlando will have an all star in his prime walk through the door. Which is it? They are both bad assumptions that aren’t reality.

Long story short, you believe only viable strategy for us right now is tanking. You dont believe in odds, its all black or white in your world. You block all the information and data presenting other possible directions and you move the goalpost on your arguments to match your agenda. I dont have desire to challenge your constantly changing arguments about all stars, free agents and trades. Now even our veterans are magically are past their prime. Signing Mcgrady, Lewis and Hill never happened and OKC didnt treadmill with Westbrook and without young talent like we have right now until George ended that madness.

Lets move into other direction becouse we had the discussion above many times. What teams are benefiting the most with changed lottery odds ?

Not sure what you’re talking about. I’ve been consistent with my viewpoint, and the direction of this team, since Dwight was traded. I’m not blocking out data, you are.
Here I’ll lay it all out for you here in this post:

Orlando has only been relevant as a franchise when they’ve selected near the top of the draft. (Dwight, Shaq, Penny). They’ve been middle of the road or bottom of the barrel when they haven’t relied on those players.

Orlando has only landed big free agents when those teams were led by those aforementioned players. The only example otherwise EVER was when Hill and McGrady decided to come together. We historically overpaid Rashard Lewis at the time, but wouldn’t have even had the chance of a meeting without Dwight.

What you seem not to understand is that it’s not about tanking. Why? Because the lottery odds don’t play in favor of it as much. That’s why I’ve never once suggested rolling out the worst possible roster to do it. There is a grey zone and it ISN'T black and white. What I’m suggesting is ditching the obvious players that post their numbers willing us to fringe playoff territory.

Vuc and Evan will never be on a championship contending team in Orlando ... ever.... so why then are we watching them for 7 years lead us to mediocrity while we pretend landing in the middle of the road every year is beneficial to us somehow? Is wanting them off this team, to get better draft odds, considered outright tanking? I don’t believe so. You could roll out Fultz,Anthony, Okeke/Ross, AG, Bamba and let the chips fall where they may.

You no longer need the worst record to land top picks. However, you also just don’t make the playoffs only to get swept and pretend it’s for some “magically” intrinsic benefit that makes you feel good. If you aren’t contending for championships, you are trying as much as possible to get better talent in order to do so. Orlando is doing neither.

We shouldnt limit ourselves to strategies that worked in the past. NBA where Shaq, Penny and Dwight existed is no longer here. Changed lottery odds, a lot more player movement, more trade demands, players coming to nba a lot earlier, more talented players in general.
Overall i think we are not totally different in our ideas, but we disagree on the range of the grey area you mentioned. You think we need to take a big step back right now and i think we are better with waiting a bit more with the moves. If we dont believe in our young core it will be a disaster one way or the other and we should wait for good draft to tear it down but if we believe one of (or two) Fultz/Anthony will become a lead ball handler, what is the real point of trading Fournier and Vucevic ? Its not like mid first round picks cant change your future. They did it for Toronto, Miami, Denver, Utah, Bucks, Suns, Warriors.

[MasterGMer]

I think this past season's Miami Heat team has a huge impact on the building of Orlando Magic franchise. Wait and be patient in assets management. Plus we need a Jimmy Butler signing.

[MagicMatic]

I think this past season's Miami Heat team has a huge impact on the building of Orlando Magic franchise. Wait and be patient in assets management. Plus we need a Jimmy Butler signing.

Ah yes. The Magic just need a Jimmy Butler type to walk through the door to save the day. That happens all the time in Orlando.

[MagicMatic]

Spoiler:

Long story short, you believe only viable strategy for us right now is tanking. You dont believe in odds, its all black or white in your world. You block all the information and data presenting other possible directions and you move the goalpost on your arguments to match your agenda. I dont have desire to challenge your constantly changing arguments about all stars, free agents and trades. Now even our veterans are magically are past their prime. Signing Mcgrady, Lewis and Hill never happened and OKC didnt treadmill with Westbrook and without young talent like we have right now until George ended that madness.

Lets move into other direction becouse we had the discussion above many times. What teams are benefiting the most with changed lottery odds ?

Not sure what you’re talking about. I’ve been consistent with my viewpoint, and the direction of this team, since Dwight was traded. I’m not blocking out data, you are.
Here I’ll lay it all out for you here in this post:

Orlando has only been relevant as a franchise when they’ve selected near the top of the draft. (Dwight, Shaq, Penny). They’ve been middle of the road or bottom of the barrel when they haven’t relied on those players.

Orlando has only landed big free agents when those teams were led by those aforementioned players. The only example otherwise EVER was when Hill and McGrady decided to come together. We historically overpaid Rashard Lewis at the time, but wouldn’t have even had the chance of a meeting without Dwight.

What you seem not to understand is that it’s not about tanking. Why? Because the lottery odds don’t play in favor of it as much. That’s why I’ve never once suggested rolling out the worst possible roster to do it. There is a grey zone and it ISN'T black and white. What I’m suggesting is ditching the obvious players that post their numbers willing us to fringe playoff territory.

Vuc and Evan will never be on a championship contending team in Orlando ... ever.... so why then are we watching them for 7 years lead us to mediocrity while we pretend landing in the middle of the road every year is beneficial to us somehow? Is wanting them off this team, to get better draft odds, considered outright tanking? I don’t believe so. You could roll out Fultz,Anthony, Okeke/Ross, AG, Bamba and let the chips fall where they may.

You no longer need the worst record to land top picks. However, you also just don’t make the playoffs only to get swept and pretend it’s for some “magically” intrinsic benefit that makes you feel good. If you aren’t contending for championships, you are trying as much as possible to get better talent in order to do so. Orlando is doing neither.

We shouldnt limit ourselves to strategies that worked in the past. NBA where Shaq, Penny and Dwight existed is no longer here. Changed lottery odds, a lot more player movement, more trade demands, players coming to nba a lot earlier, more talented players in general.
Overall i think we are not totally different in our ideas, but we disagree on the range of the grey area you mentioned. You think we need to take a big step back right now and i think we are better with waiting a bit more with the moves. If we dont believe in our young core it will be a disaster one way or the other and we should wait for good draft to tear it down but if we believe one of (or two) Fultz/Anthony will become a lead ball handler, what is the real point of trading Fournier and Vucevic ? Its not like mid first round picks cant change your future. They did it for Toronto, Miami, Denver, Utah, Bucks, Suns, Warriors.

Like I said, I believe in the youth through the lens in which they were drafted. Should they exceed expectations, then great. I personally don’t believe Orlando has been in a position to land, or landed, a go-to guy yet. What I mean specifically by that is an all star caliber player that will draw others to Orlando.

How are you “ok” with waiting a bit longer? We’ve been watching this team for 7 years with the same offense through two FO’s. Picking late in the draft and resigning the same players is hardly what I’d call “trying as hard as possible to land better talent”, if Orlando is not truly contending for anything.

Yes, it does matter where you are picking depending on the draft. The difference could be 1 pick between Luka Doncic, Trae Young, and Mo Bamba. You cannot tell me that each of those subsequent picks doesn’t have a sweeping monumental impact to a roster and organization.

If we look back 5 years from now and Killian Hayes or Haliburton are all-stars nobody would remember Orlando’s record in a bubble playoff year, nor would it matter. Time will tell, but Orlando had already whiffed on recent drafts by 1 or 2 picks. I’m not going to list them.

In short, picking higher matters when you are looking for a legitimate go-to player to build around. I’m not saying it’s impossible to find equivalent talent later in the draft. I’m saying it’s far less likely, which is factual.

[zaymon]

Not sure what you’re talking about. I’ve been consistent with my viewpoint, and the direction of this team, since Dwight was traded. I’m not blocking out data, you are.
Here I’ll lay it all out for you here in this post:

Orlando has only been relevant as a franchise when they’ve selected near the top of the draft. (Dwight, Shaq, Penny). They’ve been middle of the road or bottom of the barrel when they haven’t relied on those players.

Orlando has only landed big free agents when those teams were led by those aforementioned players. The only example otherwise EVER was when Hill and McGrady decided to come together. We historically overpaid Rashard Lewis at the time, but wouldn’t have even had the chance of a meeting without Dwight.

What you seem not to understand is that it’s not about tanking. Why? Because the lottery odds don’t play in favor of it as much. That’s why I’ve never once suggested rolling out the worst possible roster to do it. There is a grey zone and it ISN'T black and white. What I’m suggesting is ditching the obvious players that post their numbers willing us to fringe playoff territory.

Vuc and Evan will never be on a championship contending team in Orlando ... ever.... so why then are we watching them for 7 years lead us to mediocrity while we pretend landing in the middle of the road every year is beneficial to us somehow? Is wanting them off this team, to get better draft odds, considered outright tanking? I don’t believe so. You could roll out Fultz,Anthony, Okeke/Ross, AG, Bamba and let the chips fall where they may.

You no longer need the worst record to land top picks. However, you also just don’t make the playoffs only to get swept and pretend it’s for some “magically” intrinsic benefit that makes you feel good. If you aren’t contending for championships, you are trying as much as possible to get better talent in order to do so. Orlando is doing neither.

We shouldnt limit ourselves to strategies that worked in the past. NBA where Shaq, Penny and Dwight existed is no longer here. Changed lottery odds, a lot more player movement, more trade demands, players coming to nba a lot earlier, more talented players in general.
Overall i think we are not totally different in our ideas, but we disagree on the range of the grey area you mentioned. You think we need to take a big step back right now and i think we are better with waiting a bit more with the moves. If we dont believe in our young core it will be a disaster one way or the other and we should wait for good draft to tear it down but if we believe one of (or two) Fultz/Anthony will become a lead ball handler, what is the real point of trading Fournier and Vucevic ? Its not like mid first round picks cant change your future. They did it for Toronto, Miami, Denver, Utah, Bucks, Suns, Warriors.

Like I said, I believe in the youth through the lens in which they were drafted. Should they exceed expectations, then great. I personally don’t believe Orlando has been in a position to land, or landed, a go-to guy yet. What I mean specifically by that is an all star caliber player that will draw others to Orlando.

How are you “ok” with waiting a bit longer? We’ve been watching this team for 7 years with the same offense through two FO’s. Picking late in the draft and resigning the same players is hardly what I’d call “trying as hard as possible to land better talent”, if Orlando is not truly contending for anything.

Yes, it does matter where you are picking depending on the draft. The difference could be 1 pick between Luka Doncic, Trae Young, and Mo Bamba. You cannot tell me that each of those subsequent picks doesn’t have a sweeping monumental impact to a roster and organization.

If we look back 5 years from now and Killian Hayes or Haliburton are all-stars nobody would remember Orlando’s record in a bubble playoff year, nor would it matter. Time will tell, but Orlando had already whiffed on recent drafts by 1 or 2 picks. I’m not going to list them.

In short, picking higher matters when you are looking for a legitimate go-to player to build around. I’m not saying it’s impossible to find equivalent talent later in the draft. I’m saying it’s far less likely, which is factual.

We actually positioned ourselves to draft Young or Doncic but we fall one spot during lottery. We had exceptional luck with Shaq, Penny and Howard. Not repeatable.

I am more confident Anthony will become lead ball handler than Hayes and Haliburton. They have even less explosion than Cole and are worse shooters. You wont leverage your passing when you are not a scorer, thats why guys like Rubio are not all stars while questionable decision makers like Lillard, Arenas, Beal are.

We are not being honest with running it back. For me run ot back scenario would look like that;

Trading Fultz and Gordon for Westbrook. Drafting Saddiq Bey. Resigning Dj.

Westbrook/Fournier/Ennis/Aminu/Vucevic
Dj/Ross/Okeke/Bey/Birch
Ultimate run it back with the old core.

What we actually did ? We didnt resign our best ball handler. We committed to youngest pair of ball handlers in the nba. ( got to check that). What i expect to follow is reducing Fournier on ball reps and living with the results. Recalibrating our trajectory at the trade deadline. Trading Gordon for Covington package would not make us better in the present and future. Treadmill move.

We both want step back, we actually did, will it be enough ?

[OrlMagic05]

Issac has played, he just keeps getting injured. It's not Clifford's fault that Bamba has Bambi's stamina.

I am talking about rookies not playing. Isaac only played 19mpg as a rookie and I agree with you about Bamba, its not cliffords fault that he lacks stamina. With all the lottery picks we have had over the past 7 years only Oladipo and Payton played more than 20mpg. Hell even Markelle had games were he played under 25minutes.

We've also had rookies injured. AG, Issac, Bamba all missed significant time due to injury as rookies. Seems to me if they stay healthy they would have played them more.

Yes, I agree we have had a lot of rookie injuries, but even prior to injuries they didnt play much. When we drafted AG, Isaac, & Bamba we were at the bottom of the standings each year, so there was no reason not to play these guys. Its not like we are the Warriors that have great vets ahead of these guys. You can't expect guys to do much on the floor when they are playing below 20 minutes.