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Barring injury, who's better?
Who impact winning better?
What's your take on John Collins and Jon Issac in general?

JI and not even close.

King Ken wrote:Barring injury, who's better?
Who impact winning better?
What's your take on John Collins and Jon Issac in general?

Like, take Isaac injury concerns out and just on potential if that didn't happen? I take Isaac because I think his defense is DPOY level and his offense has improved slowly but surely. I don't think either can ever be #1 or #2 options on championship teams offensively which is fine. Collins reminds me of Aldridge sort of player and Isaac reminds me of Kirilenko with the body type/defensive command of a KG lurking back there. Legit seen Isaac make continual game changing plays on defense that make you go

Both need to be surrounded by people who can score at will (like a Trae) but I think Isaac is a little easier to build around.

But Collins is a really solid player who is on track to have a better career barring no injuries.

Barring injury completely changes the equation. I've made the argument for years that I'd rather have Isaac over Collins. Simply because I think his skillset, intangibles, and measurables all will make him a more impactful player. Collins was 159th in Raptor rating last year (behind Kyle Anderson) while Isaac was firmly inside the top 25 when healthy.

Their BPMs are comparable as they both excel on one end of the court. Isaac defensively. Collins offensively. However, imo, Collins is never going to be a number one or even two option on a championship-contending team. I don't foresee him winning any scoring titles either. Isaac, on the other hand, projects as a potential multiple time Defensive player of the year who can anchor a defense on a championship team.

I also think that Isaac has a better chance at becoming an above-average offensive player than Collins has at becoming an above-average defensive one.

However, despite all of that, if I was starting an NBA team today I would probably side with Collins. Simply because injury concerns have to be factored into the equation, && at no point in Isaac's basketball career has he proven he can stay healthy. High school, college, && especially the NBA.

Isaac is just the far riskier player at this stage. It will be an interesting conversation in 3 years tho, depending on their trajectories/career paths.

Baring injury i'll take JI but it's close....ask me on a different day it'll be collins....however if you account for the injuries then the answer is a lot more obvious

JI for now and JI also in the future barring injuries

Without injuries, I'd have said Isaac for sure. He's one of the most impactful defensive players in the entire league. Only a handful of players have actual game changing ability on defense and Isaac is one of them... when healthy.

But given the fact that Isaac has suffered 3 serious injuries already in his pro career and Collins has suffered none, I would pick Collins.

The best ability is availability as they say.

Isaac all day, every day. Even with his injury his upside and ability is higher.

John Collins is one of most effective 20 points scorers in nba.
Not much of a passer, not elite defender.
But 20-10 , 63% TS guy will always have lot of value.

On other side, how da hell you can pretend that over 3 years : ankle surgery, hyperexstended knee injury, MCL and ACL tear didn't happen? He is rulled out for a season that didn't even started yet.

It's like saying "when healthy Brandon Roy was better than Aldrige" umm yea, when he was healthy. That amazing two years. As his career was over in 2011. 10 years later , Aldrige still is goes strong.

If you can't stay of the court, your impact is zero.

There is also huge overhype about Isaac and what he was going to be. In his best year he was 12ppg, 6,8 rpg, 1,4apg ,1,6 spg, 2,2 bpg 55,2% TS player.
That's pretty much identical stat line of what Ibaka was on Oklahoma, before Magic trade.
Good player? Sure. Starter? Sure.
Really, anything more? Nah.

And whole " future DPOY" can we not act that's an award where guys like Joakim Noah, Chandler and Marc Gasol were winning in years when their teams still didn't do anything in playoffs? There was period of time when Deandre Jordan was viewed as elite defender. And that period of time when Avery Breadly was hyped into elite guard defender.
It's all cool and made for fans to enjoy something. Non of it will actually win you championship or help you contend. 10th best offensive player is still far more valuable than the best nba defender by wide margin ( minus few guys like Giannis and Davis who happend to be great on both sides). Would anybody in right mind pick Andre Roberson and Eric Bledsoe over Paul George or Klay Thompson?

In perfect world, you want both, elite offensive player who is elite defender. But let's not fool ourselfs. You are building team around Trae Young, Luka Doncic, James Harden, Dame Lillard... not Eric Bledsoe, Pat Bev, Mitchell Robinson or Rudy Gobert.
That's just nature of basketball. Every sport where you need to outscore opponent, and objective standard for it is 100 ( or nowdays 120) - of something, will be more focused on scoring rather than preventing scoring.

King Ken wrote:Barring injury, who's better?
Who impact winning better?
What's your take on John Collins and Jon Issac in general?

Are you serious?

Do you prefer Jordan or DJ augustin?

If you want to build a mediocre, but more stable team go with Collins if you want to have a chance at contending, build around Isaac.
I would pick Isaac every time, even with injury history. Collins is a type of player our front office would never trade for.

pepe1991 wrote:There is also huge overhype about Isaac and what he was going to be. In his best year he was 12ppg, 6,8 rpg, 1,4apg ,1,6 spg, 2,2 bpg 55,2% TS player.
That's pretty much identical stat line of what Ibaka was on Oklahoma, before Magic trade.
Good player? Sure. Starter? Sure.
Really, anything more? Nah.

I mean he got injured in a year where he showed a lot of improvement defensively and felt more comfortable on offense too. Of course people are going to expect that sort of play to continue. How can you say he won't be anything more?

I think i'm the wrong one to write in this thread, because i'm a Isaac stan & i wrote 2 years ago already, that Collins gonna be the Tobias Harris of PF, when he signs his big extension.

But injuries...

SOUL wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:There is also huge overhype about Isaac and what he was going to be. In his best year he was 12ppg, 6,8 rpg, 1,4apg ,1,6 spg, 2,2 bpg 55,2% TS player.
That's pretty much identical stat line of what Ibaka was on Oklahoma, before Magic trade.
Good player? Sure. Starter? Sure.
Really, anything more? Nah.

I mean he got injured in a year where he showed a lot of improvement defensively and felt more comfortable on offense too. Of course people are going to expect that sort of play to continue. How can you say he won't be anything more?

You do realize he was 5th offensvie option on mediocre eastern conference team, right? Equivalent of some Wendell Carter , Jarret Allen,Brandon Clarke when it comes to offense. Young, upcomming,but really just filling very small role for offense and nothing more.

63% of all his 2s are assisted, 93,8% of all his 3s were assisted.
We talk about stand still- catch&shoot OR dunk putback player. That's literally his whole offensive game.
24 of his 32 threes made last year where either wide open or open.

What ceiling are we here talking about really, objective one? No offense- Porzingis? Young Ibaka defense- Josh Richardson offense?

I was thinking about line of 18ppg but when i went through actual list of 18 ppg scorers all those guys are far more advanced. Sabonis, Lou Williams, Jamal Murray, SGA, Hield, Chris Paul, Brogdon, Simmons are that 17-19 points range guys. Isaac doesn't belong there.
He played 136 nba regular season games. He scored more than 18 points grand total of - 8 times. Last year he had as many 20 or more points game as he had 4 or less points games. Four.
For comparison sake, Sabonis (hello worst trade ever ) in only 62 games played this year, scored at least 19 points- 26 times. And he is only 18 ppg player.

This is also tied with what Isaac is, he never showed any flashes of being agresssive or advanced offensive player. For crying out loud, he played second option to Dwayne Bacon at college

isaac can't pick up his dribble, he offers nothing as ballhandler, as rolling big, he was involved in grand total of 38 pick&roll actions where he acted as finisher over last 2 seasons. Shot 42% from it. He did improve last year, but once again, we talk about soo small sample size ( 16) .

And that's pretty much it. You have weak side shot blocker, secundary rim protector, who doesn't have body to play center- good at switching- very very very average offensive player good pretty much glued for corner and boud to swing ball or shoot. Doesn't do anything with ball, doesn't pass around that well, can't playoff dribble, can't play as big.

I'm not "hating" i'm being very objective and grouned in reality. Jonathan Isaac is always injuried forward that is stuck between center position who he should be playing more often than not in modern baksetball) ( AD, Porzingis archetype) but can't because of injuries and bacause of lack of skills ( mostly also due body limitations ) to set screens and roll at rim and from time to time pop.

And now, with so many injuries sustained, is it really fair to expect player that will just come back and play 70 games? I highly doubt he'll ever be healthy for long. For same reasons Porzingis can't. Too tall, too skinny, to long.

SOUL wrote:

pepe1991 wrote:There is also huge overhype about Isaac and what he was going to be. In his best year he was 12ppg, 6,8 rpg, 1,4apg ,1,6 spg, 2,2 bpg 55,2% TS player.
That's pretty much identical stat line of what Ibaka was on Oklahoma, before Magic trade.
Good player? Sure. Starter? Sure.
Really, anything more? Nah.

I mean he got injured in a year where he showed a lot of improvement defensively and felt more comfortable on offense too. Of course people are going to expect that sort of play to continue. How can you say he won't be anything more?

why do you think? he's our forum version of........



very informative poster and seems to come correct most of the time with the statistical analysis but it seems like lately his posts have sort of a negative inflection in my opinion.....or maybe it's more precise to say he's contrarian? or anything good that's said about anything magic related he comes with the dose of reality? hell i don't even think he liked any prospect in our range in the draft iirc....i honestly wonder what does he like about this team/organization.......

KillMonger wrote:very informative poster and seems to come correct most of the time with the statistical analysis but it seems like lately his posts have sort of a negative inflection in my opinion.....or maybe it's more precise to say he's contrarian? or anything good that's said about anything magic related he comes with the dose of reality? hell i don't even think he liked any prospect in our range in the draft iirc....i honestly wonder what does he like about this team/organization.......

pepe spices the board up , the issue with always using stats is it can help or hurt you making arguments. The same people used as examples as people who can carry an offense (Trae Young) was the subject of rants and negative numbers from pepe a year ago saying why he would fail or bust or not be an impact player in the league.. and just 1-2 years ago pepe was debating if Isaac would even be a starter or good player at all or anything more than an Aminu sort of player.. he already showed impact beyond that at 22 and then got injured. Sure, I won't argue injuries.. it could change his trajectory, he may never be the same after, he may recover.. but there's a reason everybody was hopeful and happy with Isaac's play this year. I just find it's easy to keep debates going when the goalposts keep moving.. he could be an All-Star and DPOY winner and the debate would then be "he isn't a go to scorer" or another metric, so people can be "always right" in a sense

Barring injuries, it's easily Isaac for me. I don't have a problem with Collins, but I think Isaac impacts the game more on both ends. Collins is the better scorer, of course. But I think Isaac isn't as far behind Collins on that end as Collins is behind Isaac on the defensive end.

I actually like Hunter a lot more than Collins, personally. That would've been a harder choice for me between the two.

You have to really, really, really pay attention to what JI does on defense. It's basically next level, real All-Defensive team skill already. Furthermore, he's already an okay spot/corner 3 shooter and FT guy. Which means he has crossed the barrier of making him a 5-star 3&D guy. But as we've seen so far, he's more of a helicopter arms, defensive anchor than 3&d, and he's been growing from that spot-up offensive role too, which improving shooting and drives. I'd say he was looking especially exciting in term of growth in about his last 20 games, offensively. He was starting to look a little like a Giannis-lite in attacks and put-backs to the hoop. I honestly think his push to attack and grow offensively gave him the injury, as he wasn't just injured on an aggressive drive, but also attacking and being extra aggressive athletically in those last 20-ish games.

So the answer is very simple barring injuries. You really need a guy like that on a title team. Because while John is pulling 21 PER and 22, 10, 3, 1, 1, I see JI someday doing 16, 10, 2, 3, 3 with insane defense that wins the real games. And pulling a 17 PER on only 11 PPG is pretty good right now too. With injuries, all I'd say is watch the YT medicine guy who says to rehab both legs like they're both injured, to keep them balanced from re-injury. And as a GM/HC, I'd not let him play more than 5 games in a row, most of the time. The regular season is just the warm-up to the Playoffs.

Don't think it's fair to make these comparisons while a player is injured. He was better in nearly every head to head meeting with Collins. Also i think Collins is the typical stat guy that never contributes to a championship type team, because he just isn't good at defense.

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Collins (mostly due to injuries) and it’s not really that close imo.