Celtics and Hornets interested in trading for VUC

[fendilim]

The Magic should seriously consider moving Vuc this year, it is probably at an all time high now.

[zaymon]

The Magic should seriously consider moving Vuc this year, it is probably at an all time high now.

We should also consider building around him. He is loyal, great character and with timeless skillset. He will play at all star level propably for the next 4-6 years. Thats more than enough time, probably more great play before him that you would get for lottery talent before it gets unrestricted. We have a great luxury on our hands, we should not take it for granted. I am almost certain you can build contender with Vucevic being number 2 option. Right now he is solid number 1 on fringe playoff team playing with reserves. Its not like we lack good young talent. Isaac, Okeke, Fultz, Anthony 2021 frp..... Bamba. Trading AG for Lowry is not realistic but would be the funniest thing ever.

[MagicMatic]

The Magic should seriously consider moving Vuc this year, it is probably at an all time high now.

We should also consider building around him. He is loyal, great character and with timeless skillset. He will play at all star level propably for the next 4-6 years. Thats more than enough time, probably more great play before him that you would get for lottery talent before it gets unrestricted. We have a great luxury on our hands, we should not take it for granted. I am almost certain you can build contender with Vucevic being number 2 option. Right now he is solid number 1 on fringe playoff team playing with reserves. Its not like we lack good young talent. Isaac, Okeke, Fultz, Anthony 2021 frp..... Bamba. Trading AG for Lowry is not realistic but would be the funniest thing ever.

Isn’t that what we’ve essentially been doing for the last 7 years?

What this argument comes down to is TIME and realistic expectations. I listened to PRR’s podcast this morning and it’s the same line of non critical thinking.

So let me get this straight... everyone that isn’t on board with moving Vuc has somewhat conceded that Orlando needs to make some kind of move for a mini-rebuild, ok. Most likely Aaron Gordon and Evan Fournier are gone in this scenario. If that’s the case, then all of these people wanting Vuc to stay are assuming these things to happen, with him still on the roster, as opposed to moving him at his likely highest value point.

1. Whoever Orlando acquires in those trades is equal to AG and Fournier in term of production. (unlikely, and shouldn’t be the return they are looking for)

2. Whoever Orlando acquires via draft is a home run pick. This is assuming they don’t drop out of the top 4. (again, odds and relying on weltman)

3. Orlando improves enough to get past the first round of the playoffs with these moves.

I believe that all three of these things happening, with positive outcome, have to take place in order for keeping Vuc to make any sense whatsoever.

I’ll also say that the FO should be fired if they believe competing at all costs is more important than knowing when to make use of assets and being realistic with outcome. The ONLY reason Orlando is even discussing a top 5 pick this season is due to injuries, which if they had their way they’d be picking 12-16 after another first round exit.

What makes people think another contract of Vucevic leads to anything different? And if you say “he only has x amount of years on his deal”, then why would you trade him as a rental at lesser return? Why, so you can say “hey at least we tried with a bunch of young guys and a 31 year old Center that requires 18-20fga to close out games.” Makes no sense.

I’d like to hope all the smoke we are seeing with these rumors leads to fire because that would be the appropriate course of action. Nobody actually believes outside of Orlando that a clean bill of health separates them from competing and rebuilding. This team is rebuilding.

[Skybox]

MagicMatic, obviously ORL would want to negotiate the max return for Vuc but...what would you consider a realistic and acceptable return for Vuc this month?

[RookieStar]

There's a lot of good points some of you guys are making here and it is refreshing to read it. My line of thinking when it comes to keeping Vučević is not just if he will be still starter material two years from now, but more importantly whether you believe in Fultz and Isaac or not. If you think Isaac is DPOY and Fultz is an All Star in 2022/23 season, you keep Vučević, otherwise we can safely flush all veterans we can, for with or without them we will be bottom of the league this season and next.

Doesn't have to be both. I believe in JI. Every year we see the weakness in his game and every year we see him correcting/improving it. His trajectory is going up. Fultz, is yet to be determined. Last year was I think the 1st "real" nba season for him and thus wanna see his improvement "supposedly" this season. Well, you know what happened so Im going to reserve my judgement next season. However, we do have Cole who can potentially cover for Fultz's position and knock on wood, Cade or Suggs to man it if ever.

[zaymon]

The Magic should seriously consider moving Vuc this year, it is probably at an all time high now.

We should also consider building around him. He is loyal, great character and with timeless skillset. He will play at all star level propably for the next 4-6 years. Thats more than enough time, probably more great play before him that you would get for lottery talent before it gets unrestricted. We have a great luxury on our hands, we should not take it for granted. I am almost certain you can build contender with Vucevic being number 2 option. Right now he is solid number 1 on fringe playoff team playing with reserves. Its not like we lack good young talent. Isaac, Okeke, Fultz, Anthony 2021 frp..... Bamba. Trading AG for Lowry is not realistic but would be the funniest thing ever.

Isn’t that what we’ve essentially been doing for the last 7 years?

What this argument comes down to is TIME and realistic expectations. I listened to PRR’s podcast this morning and it’s the same line of non critical thinking.

So let me get this straight... everyone that isn’t on board with moving Vuc has somewhat conceded that Orlando needs to make some kind of move for a mini-rebuild, ok. Most likely Aaron Gordon and Evan Fournier are gone in this scenario. If that’s the case, then all of these people wanting Vuc to stay are assuming these things to happen, with him still on the roster, as opposed to moving him at his likely highest value point.

1. Whoever Orlando acquires in those trades is equal to AG and Fournier in term of production. (unlikely, and shouldn’t be the return they are looking for)

2. Whoever Orlando acquires via draft is a home run pick. This is assuming they don’t drop out of the top 4. (again, odds and relying on weltman)

3. Orlando improves enough to get past the first round of the playoffs with these moves.

I believe that all three of these things happening, with positive outcome, have to take place in order for keeping Vuc to make any sense whatsoever.

I’ll also say that the FO should be fired if they believe competing at all costs is more important than knowing when to make use of assets and being realistic with outcome. The ONLY reason Orlando is even discussing a top 5 pick this season is due to injuries, which if they had their way they’d be picking 12-16 after another first round exit.

What makes people think another contract of Vucevic leads to anything different? And if you say “he only has x amount of years on his deal”, then why would you trade him as a rental at lesser return? Why, so you can say “hey at least we tried with a bunch of young guys and a 31 year old Center that requires 18-20fga to close out games.” Makes no sense.

I’d like to hope all the smoke we are seeing with these rumors leads to fire because that would be the appropriate course of action. Nobody actually believes outside of Orlando that a clean bill of health separates them from competing and rebuilding. This team is rebuilding.

We know each other opinions well and respectfully disagree For the last 7 years we have been mostly tanking. Even under Weltman we tanked in 50% of seasons (#6, #6, #16, #15). This year we will propably pick in high lottery again.
Playing without good veterans was what killed our former team with Oladipo and Harris. Its not easy to get good veterans, while its easiest job in the world to get high lottery picks.
If we trade Vucevic one thing will change for sure, we will need two all stars instead of one to compete. I just broke down numbers regarding chance of getting an allstar depending on new lottery odds and historical all star picks data. I will post them tomorrow but the results will suprise you. Between worst team and barely play in team there is only about 13% difference between chance of getting all star (i know there is difference between all star and superstar but superstars happen at even more random picks than all stars)

[basketballRob]

For Vuc, I'd want to add our worst contact, probably Aminu. I'd want to get back expiring contracts, a young player, and a high pick.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[MagicMatic]

We should also consider building around him. He is loyal, great character and with timeless skillset. He will play at all star level propably for the next 4-6 years. Thats more than enough time, probably more great play before him that you would get for lottery talent before it gets unrestricted. We have a great luxury on our hands, we should not take it for granted. I am almost certain you can build contender with Vucevic being number 2 option. Right now he is solid number 1 on fringe playoff team playing with reserves. Its not like we lack good young talent. Isaac, Okeke, Fultz, Anthony 2021 frp..... Bamba. Trading AG for Lowry is not realistic but would be the funniest thing ever.

Isn’t that what we’ve essentially been doing for the last 7 years?

What this argument comes down to is TIME and realistic expectations. I listened to PRR’s podcast this morning and it’s the same line of non critical thinking.

So let me get this straight... everyone that isn’t on board with moving Vuc has somewhat conceded that Orlando needs to make some kind of move for a mini-rebuild, ok. Most likely Aaron Gordon and Evan Fournier are gone in this scenario. If that’s the case, then all of these people wanting Vuc to stay are assuming these things to happen, with him still on the roster, as opposed to moving him at his likely highest value point.

1. Whoever Orlando acquires in those trades is equal to AG and Fournier in term of production. (unlikely, and shouldn’t be the return they are looking for)

2. Whoever Orlando acquires via draft is a home run pick. This is assuming they don’t drop out of the top 4. (again, odds and relying on weltman)

3. Orlando improves enough to get past the first round of the playoffs with these moves.

I believe that all three of these things happening, with positive outcome, have to take place in order for keeping Vuc to make any sense whatsoever.

I’ll also say that the FO should be fired if they believe competing at all costs is more important than knowing when to make use of assets and being realistic with outcome. The ONLY reason Orlando is even discussing a top 5 pick this season is due to injuries, which if they had their way they’d be picking 12-16 after another first round exit.

What makes people think another contract of Vucevic leads to anything different? And if you say “he only has x amount of years on his deal”, then why would you trade him as a rental at lesser return? Why, so you can say “hey at least we tried with a bunch of young guys and a 31 year old Center that requires 18-20fga to close out games.” Makes no sense.

I’d like to hope all the smoke we are seeing with these rumors leads to fire because that would be the appropriate course of action. Nobody actually believes outside of Orlando that a clean bill of health separates them from competing and rebuilding. This team is rebuilding.

We know each other opinions well and respectfully disagree For the last 7 years we have been mostly tanking. Even under Weltman we tanked in 50% of seasons (#6, #6, #16, #15). This year we will propably pick in high lottery again.
Playing without good veterans was what killed our former team with Oladipo and Harris. Its not easy to get good veterans, while its easiest job in the world to get high lottery picks.
If we trade Vucevic one thing will change for sure, we will need two all stars instead of one to compete. I just broke down numbers regarding chance of getting an allstar depending on new lottery odds and historical all star picks data. I will post them tomorrow but the results will suprise you. Between worst team and barely play in team there is only about 13% difference between chance of getting all star (i know there is difference between all star and superstar but superstars happen at even more random picks than all stars)

False.

This front office has pushed “playoffs” since they were hired, despite the team construction being nonsensical and comprised of one dimensional role players. They have NEVER made moves as a FO to tank. Ever.

Those years of high picks were EARNED. They never made moves to consolidate assets for the future. They reinvested in the same “core” they inherited that never went anywhere. Therefore, no, they never “tanked”. You shouldn’t use the word so casually if you don’t know what it means.

The only time Orlando “tanked” was for Oladipo under Hennigan, who actually became a good player after we traded him for nothing.

Back to the actual topic at hand...

You are then conceding that Orlando does in fact need this draft to equal a “star”. Then you must be confident in this FO’s drafting ability. Not only that, but whoever the pick becomes won’t be a “star” for at least two to three seasons on average. That is already outside of Vuc’s contract and on the downside of his prime. Which was my original point... TIMEFRAME.

That doesn’t even factor in all the other working pieces that have to make sense as a roster around Vuc and the 2021 pick.

You’re missing the point about trading Vuc for star/allstar team composition. Orlando is NOT competing for a championship right now. Period. It will never happen with Vuc on the roster under this timeframe. IF it ever did happen it would be on his next contract if everything broke 100% like I’ve laid out. Even then it’s a massive stretch.

[Skybox]

[quote="zaymon"]
If we trade Vucevic one thing will change for sure, we will need two all stars instead of one to compete.


That's the essence of this whole thing to me...IF Vuc made it impossible for us to get a very good pick, I'd have to re-think but look at our team this season. If we move Vuc for prayers instead of players, the best player on our team (if we defy the odds and NAIL the pick) will be a 19 year old who shows up with his shoes on the wrong feet for the first half of the season...I'd much rather give that same kid a solid presence to hide behind from time to time and learn from....why not Both? We are in the fairly unique position, like SAS with David Robinson out being able to draft Duncan (after jumping over teams even in the old rigged lottery). Then, the kid's got a team around him instead of ON HIM.

[Knightro]

This whole "should the Magic trade Vucevic or should they keep him and try to retool around him?" argument boils down to two things for me.

1. What is the Magic's ceiling with Vucevic as their best player? 42-40 regular season with a first round exit is the best they've ever done.

2. Knowing that the Magic are unlikely to be bad enough under Clifford with everything running through Vucevic (this season with the crazy amount of injuries not withstanding), is there a realistic scenario where the Magic acquire a player who is *better* than Vucevic or acquire *better* complimentary pieces than they have been able to acquire over the last 6-7 years?

Trading Vucevic will almost assuredly make the Magic worse (perhaps significantly so) in the short-term, but if they don't have a ceiling higher than a first round exit *with* Vucevic anyway, then what difference does it really make?

Yes, a hard reset/tank/teardown/whatever you want to call it requires time and luck and there's obviously no guarantee it will work, but it's not like the alternative is all that appealing either.

I'm ready to move on.

[Skybox]

MagicMatic, obviously ORL would want to negotiate the max return for Vuc but...what would you consider a realistic and acceptable return for Vuc this month?

crickets

[basketballRob]

I like the Zeller, Monk, and the Hornets first round pick. First you could sign them for half of what Vuc and Fournier get. You'd also get the first round pick and you could offer another player the full MLE if you wanted to.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[RookieStar]

If we trade Vucevic one thing will change for sure, we will need two all stars instead of one to compete.


That's the essence of this whole thing to me...IF Vuc made it impossible for us to get a very good pick, I'd have to re-think but look at our team this season. If we move Vuc for prayers instead of players, the best player on our team (if we defy the odds and NAIL the pick) will be a 19 year old who shows up with his shoes on the wrong feet for the first half of the season...I'd much rather give that same kid a solid presence to hide behind from time to time and learn from....why not Both? We are in the fairly unique position, like SAS with David Robinson out being able to draft Duncan (after jumping over teams even in the old rigged lottery). Then, the kid's got a team around him instead of ON HIM.

Agree with you here. To those who wants to jump right away to the championship ( kinda like before when we lost the 1st against DET to almost immediately going against Kobe in the Finals ) you need at least 2 but realistically 3 stars or just 2 superstars to be in that conversation.

We have 1 right now.. and as luck would have it, he isn't hurting the tank for the #1 pick. ( I like that Robinson comparison onhow they got TD ). Not only that, we have shown to be open to trading our "core" pieces like AG and Evan. I dunno if you can get a star if you combine them all even with fillers but we shall see. Stranger things have happened.

Thus I am all for reloading with the pieces we have rather than a full-blown rebuild.

[MagicMatic]

MagicMatic, obviously ORL would want to negotiate the max return for Vuc but...what would you consider a realistic and acceptable return for Vuc this month?

crickets

Nothing will be “acceptable” for people that are expecting a bonafide star in return for Vucevic. The amount of teams and available assets will be limited. His positional value and contract already limit that.

A starter, a good/great prospect, filler, and package of picks (depending on the value of the two aforementioned players) seems correct to me. Teams will offer less when he starts drifting into “rental” territory.

[Xatticus]

This whole "should the Magic trade Vucevic or should they keep him and try to retool around him?" argument boils down to two things for me.

1. What is the Magic's ceiling with Vucevic as their best player? 42-40 regular season with a first round exit is the best they've ever done.

2. Knowing that the Magic are unlikely to be bad enough under Clifford with everything running through Vucevic (this season with the crazy amount of injuries not withstanding), is there a realistic scenario where the Magic acquire a player who is *better* than Vucevic or acquire *better* complimentary pieces than they have been able to acquire over the last 6-7 years?

Trading Vucevic will almost assuredly make the Magic worse (perhaps significantly so) in the short-term, but if they don't have a ceiling higher than a first round exit *with* Vucevic anyway, then what difference does it really make?

Yes, a hard reset/tank/teardown/whatever you want to call it requires time and luck and there's obviously no guarantee it will work, but it's not like the alternative is all that appealing either.

I'm ready to move on.

We are living the failed version of the "hard reset/tank/teardown/whatever you want to call it." That's what this is. That's what people are clinging to.

[fendilim]

The Magic should seriously consider moving Vuc this year, it is probably at an all time high now.

We should also consider building around him. He is loyal, great character and with timeless skillset. He will play at all star level propably for the next 4-6 years. Thats more than enough time, probably more great play before him that you would get for lottery talent before it gets unrestricted. We have a great luxury on our hands, we should not take it for granted. I am almost certain you can build contender with Vucevic being number 2 option. Right now he is solid number 1 on fringe playoff team playing with reserves. Its not like we lack good young talent. Isaac, Okeke, Fultz, Anthony 2021 frp..... Bamba. Trading AG for Lowry is not realistic but would be the funniest thing ever.

I would love to keep Vuc but I think we have to be realistic here. This year is THE time to rebuild with really, mo chance to make the playoffs because tier 2 important players - Isaac and Fultz are down.

If ever we are able to land a top talent and build around Vuc, that would make it really impossible to win.

Will a top pick be able to contribute right away?

If Vuc is able to keep this level of play until his next contract negotiation, we’ll likely have to re-sign him for a large chunk of money. That would be an albatross in cap space.

Not saying a top pick this year will be like LeBron, but the situation would be the same with LeBron being in the same team with Ilgauskas.

I think this whole post-Dwight era has a lot of problems to begin with. We’ve dealt away scorers we have acquired (Tobias and Victor). And we have not really focused on building around one guy. Even Vuc, the longest tenured player of this era has had Biyombo and Bamba knocking on his starting position.

[Skybox]

MagicMatic, obviously ORL would want to negotiate the max return for Vuc but...what would you consider a realistic and acceptable return for Vuc this month?

crickets

Nothing will be “acceptable” for people that are expecting a bonafide star in return for Vucevic. The amount of teams and available assets will be limited. His positional value and contract already limit that.

A starter, a good/great prospect, filler, and package of picks (depending on the value of the two aforementioned players) seems correct to me. Teams will offer less when he starts drifting into “rental” territory.

pretty vague...Have you read any RealGM offers here that excite you? Zeller, Monk, and a CHA first? Most of the ones I'm seeing don't even offer a legit starter let alone any value beyond a couple of firsts in the 20's over the next 3 years. What would it take from BOS for you?

[MagicMatic]

crickets

Nothing will be “acceptable” for people that are expecting a bonafide star in return for Vucevic. The amount of teams and available assets will be limited. His positional value and contract already limit that.

A starter, a good/great prospect, filler, and package of picks (depending on the value of the two aforementioned players) seems correct to me. Teams will offer less when he starts drifting into “rental” territory.

pretty vague...Have you read any RealGM offers here that excite you? Zeller, Monk, and a CHA first? Most of the ones I'm seeing don't even offer a legit starter let alone any value beyond a couple of firsts in the 20's over the next 3 years. What would it take from BOS for you?

Yeah, I don’t really see Boston as a trade partner. CHA would need to find a third team. Trading Vuc for a realistic return isn’t easy, which was why I was against resigning him in the first place because y’know... this team has achieved so much more after his first allstar reserve season /green

[OrlChamps2030]

Vucevic has really improved, I give him a lot of respect for that. But unfortunately this front office has botched their time here in Orlando. I don’t see this team ever being better than a 7th seed during the duration of Vucevic’s deal.

Unfortunately we will not get an all star back in return. It’s just the facts

In my opinion- it’s either begin to rebuild now, or begin to rebuild in 2 years once this front office is fired, Vucevic is a free agent, and Fournier + Gordon are already gone.

Monk, Washington, Zeller, and 2021 first for
Vucevic?

Bottom out, get a high pick plus a rookie with Charlottes pick. Likely make moves with Gordon and Ross too. And see what you have next season and see who’s worth building around in: 2021 top 5 pick, Isaac, Fultz, Monk, Washington, Okeke, Anthony 2021 Charlotte rookie. All while “organically developing” and getting a high pick in the 2022 draft.

A hard reset is desperately needed for this organization

[Knightro]

pretty vague...Have you read any RealGM offers here that excite you? Zeller, Monk, and a CHA first? Most of the ones I'm seeing don't even offer a legit starter let alone any value beyond a couple of firsts in the 20's over the next 3 years. What would it take from BOS for you?

I would do Zeller, Monk, one of Bridges/Washington and a 2021 1st for Vucevic.

I would do Thompson, Langford, Nesmith, R. Williams and a 2021 1st for Vucevic.

And I say I'd make both of those moves completely understand that they would make the team worse, perhaps significantly so, in the short term.

But the ceiling is so low *with* Vucevic that I just don't care about getting worse in the short-term. I'm not particularly concerned with getting "fair" value back for Vucevic because they aren't going anywhere with him anyway.