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Without making any proclamations of greatness, or setting any expectations, I was looking at some numbers around Bamba and a couple really exciting ones stood out.

His 2-man lineup numbers with Isaac in 19-20 (OFF: 110.0 DEF: 92.3. NET 17.7), and his 2-man lineup numbers with Okeke in 20-21 (OFF: 105.3 DEF: 91.6 NET 13.7).

I know these lineups are facing bench competition, but with those numbers it's plenty of validation to want to see them more and against starters more. I would imagine the presence of two other locked in defenders would help Mo focus, and at the very least cover any lapses.

Offensively, Mo is showing reliability as a floor spacer with a growing lob game. Basically, the tools to either get out of the way (positively), or get in position to complete a high % shot. Chuma looks like he will be a really great shooter and ball mover, with some post up abilities to mix it up on occasion. Isaac, well, the last we saw from his was still very raw, so if he can come back with a good 3pt shot then we're ahead.

Then I think about those 3 with someone like Cade, or Green, or Suggs, or Kuminga.... That would be a fun squad to watch on both ends of the floor. I wouldn't even care if it was still only against 2nd units, I'd just be excited to see how they function as a unit.

Either way, I know Bamba is a contentious topic here, but he has his strengths and in the right lineups they could really bring out the best in him. I hope we get to see it next season when Isaac is back.

Bensational wrote:Without making any proclamations of greatness, or setting any expectations, I was looking at some numbers around Bamba and a couple really exciting ones stood out.

His 2-man lineup numbers with Isaac in 19-20 (OFF: 110.0 DEF: 92.3. NET 17.7), and his 2-man lineup numbers with Isaac in 19-20 (OFF: 105.3 DEF: 91.6 NET 13.7).

I know these lineups are facing bench competition, but with those numbers it's plenty of validation to want to see them more and against starters more. I would imagine the presence of two other locked in defenders would help Mo focus, and at the very least cover any lapses.

Offensively, Mo is showing reliability as a floor spacer with a growing lob game. Basically, the tools to either get out of the way (positively), or get in position to complete a high % shot. Chuma looks like he will be a really great shooter and ball mover, with some post up abilities to mix it up on occasion. Isaac, well, the last we saw from his was still very raw, so if he can come back with a good 3pt shot then we're ahead.

Then I think about those 3 with someone like Cade, or Green, or Suggs, or Kuminga.... That would be a fun squad to watch on both ends of the floor. I wouldn't even care if it was still only against 2nd units, I'd just be excited to see how they function as a unit.

Either way, I know Bamba is a contentious topic here, but he has his strengths and in the right lineups they could really bring out the best in him. I hope we get to see it next season when Isaac is back.

Yeah. I assume you mean his numbers with Okeke in the 2nd link. His impact at the defensive end is rather obvious. There was a stretch against Atlanta in the last game where Atlanta just couldn't get a decent shot up. Bamba came off the floor and Atlanta's offense got rolling again. Some guys still challenge him in the paint and some are successful, but you can see a lot of guys hesitate instead of charging to the rim when they see him waiting in there for him. He looks like a rookie at the offensive end though, which comes as no surprise. His timing with Ross on the DHOs is abysmal and they've botched a bunch of the handoffs. He is being forced into the Vucevic role with Ross, but Ross basically never gives the ball up. I think if we could get a good PnR guy with the second unit, we could kill defenses with Bamba's ability to catch and finish around the rim. He is just so physically superior. He scarcely needs to leave the ground to finish and his height/wingspan make him a really easy target.

I like Okeke. I don't think there is much upside there due to his lack of physical tools, but he is just really smart. He looks smaller than I'd expected and I didn't expect much. He isn't a four. I'd call him a 2/3, but I think there are some guys he'd struggle to keep up with on the perimeter. He does add a bit of weakside rim protection though and his shot looks compact, quick, and consistent. I'd like to see him hang around for a long time. He looks a lot like Josh Hart to me, who is another guy I really like.

I think it has more to do with Isaac and Okeke value than Bamba. You also have to remember Clifford is protecting Bamba from bad matchups. Since beginning our coaching staff is cherry picking him opponets, limiting his minutes even to zero versus tougher opponents. You also showed stats on very small sample size. This year they are pumped by playing against g league players in blow outs mostly.
Bamba is not a lost couse, he showed some promise and his tools are elite but he has a long way to go. Right now he is not even a solid backup.

Every mention from players and media about okeke is that he looks huge. I think he is build more like Draymond Green than Josh Hart. 6'6, 229 lbs, 7'0 wingspan thats almost identical to Green. For that reason i think he is more of a 3/4 who in time could play some center ( better build for that than Isaac).

Right now Coach Clifford is on record that he is unhappy with Bamba's team defense, notably PnR defense. No player is going to get rotational minutes on a Clifford roster that does not prioritise defense. Bamba's pure existence on this roster is predicated on the capacity to be an elite man-defender. So why not buy into team-defence as well?

drsd wrote:Right now Coach Clifford is on record that he is unhappy with Bamba's team defense, notably PnR defense. No player is going to get rotational minutes on a Clifford roster that does not prioritise defense. Bamba's pure existence on this roster is predicated on the capacity to be an elite man-defender. So why not buy into team-defence as well?

The team defends better when Bamba is in the game. Cliff is just talking and wants to justify himself for not playing Bamba.

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basketballRob wrote:Cliff is just talking and wants to justify himself for not playing Bamba.

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Tell me how this makes ANY sense at all please.

I don't really fault Cliff for trying to win tonight with mistake-free Birch. I DO blame FO for allowing their prized high pick to rot on the bench...talk to Cliff about player development vs. unemployment or trade Birch out from under him. Are you saying Bamba's better, Cliff knows it but he's up to no good?

Skybox wrote:

basketballRob wrote:Cliff is just talking and wants to justify himself for not playing Bamba.

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Tell me how this makes ANY sense at all please.

I don't really fault Cliff for trying to win tonight with mistake-free Birch. I DO blame FO for allowing their prized high pick to rot on the bench...talk to Cliff about player development vs. unemployment or trade Birch out from under him. Are you saying Bamba's better, Cliff knows it but he's up to no good?

Yes even with the poor development by Cliff and his staff, Bamba is a superior player than Birch.

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Bamba has the potential to be out of the league in 2-4 years.

basketballRob wrote:Yes even with the poor development by Cliff and his staff, Bamba is a superior player than Birch.

BadMofoPimp wrote:Bamba has the potential to be out of the league in 2-4 years.

These can't both be correct, right?


..

My thoughts: Bamba will be given one more off-season to see where he lands in the pre-season. There are a couple specific goals he needs to set for himself relating to rebounding position, pick-N-role defensive position, and upper-body strength.

This coming off-season is not the one to further develop a jumpier. What he needs is to be able to play 4-time 5 minute stretch (i.e. 20mpg) where he is not a foul-machine.


..

drsd wrote:

basketballRob wrote:Yes even with the poor development by Cliff and his staff, Bamba is a superior player than Birch.

BadMofoPimp wrote:Bamba has the potential to be out of the league in 2-4 years.

These can't both be correct, right?


..

If the player doesn't develop, I think most of the problem is the player. He has to want to be good and try hard to get there.

BadMofoPimp wrote:Bamba has the potential to be out of the league in 2-4 years.

He'll probably get a 4 year 50+ deal after his current contract.

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basketballRob wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:Bamba has the potential to be out of the league in 2-4 years.

He'll probably get a 4 year 50+ deal after his current contract.

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More like 4 year $20 mil.

I’d argue this is Birch’s first year playing meaningful basketball. In years past he has been passable as a 3rd string center. He is 28.

Bamba is 22. Oh but Bamba was a top talent in his draft class. So was Birch, he was the 9th ranked prep in his class. Bamba has plenty of time. If we don’t give him more time to figure things out, someone else gladly will.

Clifford has been shifting the goals on Bamba pretty regularly in the media. First it was a meritocracy that kept him benched. Then he played Bamba and benched Birch said it was about keeping players warm and game ready. Then he benched Bamba and played Birch claiming specific defensive matchups and defensive plays.

I think if you’re still trying to hang on to Cliff’s every word as to the real reason why Bamba isn’t playing then you’re setting yourself up for confusion.

I don’t think there’s a justifiable reason to look at those numbers and have a skeptical projection of a Bamba/Isaac/Chuma front court lineup.

3 logical reasons why Okeke, Isaac and Bamba will never "work"

1) nobody can dribble
2) nobody can score
3) nobody has passing game off dribble

Game simply went in another direction since a day Magic drafted Bamba. Only 3 years passed by, but age of stiff wood defenders is over. Magic are just last to arrive at a party, wearing halloween costume where everybody else is wearing Prada and dolce & gabbana.

Rememeber when in 2017 and 2018 everybody was up in arms about front office and "zag when everybody is zigging" argument about adding defenderds where it was very obvious where wind is blowing and whole damn nba, but Orlando started to shift toward offensive oriented players?
Well now they are choking on fruits of their terrible decisions, in retrospective that was how Orlando Magic future died, with thunderous applause from fans from real.gm and Orlando Magic reddit, and lesser exstend Orlando pinstripe.

Offensive expansion happend. Every single nba player puts up 16-20 ppg. Basically every nba team has at least 2 but more often than not 3 players that are in ballpark of 20 ppg. 3 point efficiency went through the roof. Average 3% is freaking 36,8%, that's highest in nba history.
Do you know how many players who averaged at least at some point18 ppg and shoot at least 36,8% Orlando Magic drafted in last 10 years? One. Oladipo. But not for them. And only for 1 season.

Among 11 best nba teams with THE BEST defense today, SIX OF THEM have record that is either negative, or very close to negative. Among top 11 defensive teams, there is Houston, with second worst record in whole league.
2# best nba defense today, New York Knicks, has defensive rating of 108,1, and they sit on 19-18 record.
108,1 defensive rating, in 2016-17 would rank them as 16th defense in nba and 15# in 2017-18.

On flip side, 113,4 offensive rating of Raptors, who are 10th best offense, would make them 2# best offense in 2017-18 and 2016-17.

Complete and utter expansion of modern basketball, mainly exstream spacing, knockdown shooters, incredible crafty ballhandlers and nba coaches adjusting to new systems.
Traditional defense simply cant' defend modern offense, building defensive minded team with limited offensive players isn't beneficial nor will ever again be rewarding. NBA simply went in another direction.

People claim Utah is great because of their defense, but what people fail to understand Utah has 4th best nba offense, and last year they were 12# defense but 10# offense kept them afloat. They have ONE elite defender on whole roster, with 2 solid ones ( Conley , Oneal).
Nets best defender is Kevin Durant. They are rulling nba. They will allow 120 points, Ugly i kow, but Irving, Harden ( on their own let alone with Durant) will also score 130 on everybody.

And that's why losing sleep over what Okeke ( 4,4 ppg, 38% FG) Bamba ( 5 ppg) and Isaac ( 10 ppg ) can do, on greater scale, is wasting time. They won't do anything against anybody good. Only chance how that trio can hang around nba and not get runned over is by adding 2 superstar guards. But adding two superstar guards ( Irving and Harden for example) is more than enough to win games regardless of trio you put them along side. Deadnre Jordan, Harris and wrong Bruce Bowen or Isaac, Bamba and Okeke, or 3 g league bodies. Doesn't matter.

Bamba at his apsolute best, if he develops in pick&roll defense, if he develops rolling game, if he stays healthy, if his BBIQ advances will never be anything else but 4th best player on playoff team. aka Brook Lopez. But since his level of talent is nowhere near Broook and his ( averaged 20 ppg at age of 22, was in condidirations for allstar game ) it's silly to talk about "potential" of player who is in nba for 3 yearas and who showed no signs of development of any of skills i mentioned before. Guy is turning 23 in like 2 months. He is not that young. So far 4 nba players selected in allstar game are actually younger than him.
Bamba on his own simply isn't that talented nor gifted player. He has poor hands in traffic, he is not elite after switching, his decision making and constant fouling on defense and non existing offense makes him liability. And all that- against backups most of the time. We talk about player who got outplayed by guy who spent 16 games in nba and was second round pick against Nets...

Half of the nba does not even use backup centers any more. Will some mid tear team take him and give him a ride? Sure. We would take on Kevin Knox and give him few min to see what's there, but odds are, Bamba nor Knox will never become anything more than replacment level rotation peaces in nba. Upcomming drafts are huge, next year teams will draft guys from highschool, new influx of talent every year, as usual, pushes old "shiny new toys" aside and replaces them with new one.
Talking how somebody will give Bamba $50M contract is laughable. Whiteside plays for vets minimum , McGee for $4M, Holmes for $5M, Ibaka is starting on contender for $9M . All of them are more proven nba players than Mo.

Magic had chance to draft Donovan Mitchell,Bam Adebayo, Mitchell Robinson, Michael Porter Jr and SGA.
Instad they drafted 2 defenders.
They bought costume to toxedo party.
It's time for front office to. It's time to get people who understand modern basketball. It's time to trade Evan for assets due contracts, Gordon,Bamba and Fultz due being poor fits in modern basketball.

drsd wrote:Right now Coach Clifford is on record that he is unhappy with Bamba's team defense, notably PnR defense. No player is going to get rotational minutes on a Clifford roster that does not prioritise defense. Bamba's pure existence on this roster is predicated on the capacity to be an elite man-defender. So why not buy into team-defence as well?

Clifford is a judge, not a coach. ...and it shows.

Because of his height, he has only played C. But I really think coach Clifford should use the pre-season to assess whether Bamba's game is actually more suited for the PF slot.

Something has to change.

pepe1991 wrote:3 logical reasons why Okeke, Isaac and Bamba will never "work"

1) nobody can dribble
2) nobody can score
3) nobody has passing game off dribble

Game simply went in another direction since a day Magic drafted Bamba. Only 3 years passed by, but age of stiff wood defenders is over. Magic are just last to arrive at a party, wearing halloween costume where everybody else is wearing Prada and dolce & gabbana.

Rememeber when in 2017 and 2018 everybody was up in arms about front office and "zag when everybody is zigging" argument about adding defenderds where it was very obvious where wind is blowing and whole damn nba, but Orlando started to shift toward offensive oriented players?
Well now they are choking on fruits of their terrible decisions, in retrospective that was how Orlando Magic future died, with thunderous applause from fans from real.gm and Orlando Magic reddit, and lesser exstend Orlando pinstripe.

Offensive expansion happend. Every single nba player puts up 16-20 ppg. Basically every nba team has at least 2 but more often than not 3 players that are in ballpark of 20 ppg. 3 point efficiency went through the roof. Average 3% is freaking 36,8%, that's highest in nba history.
Do you know how many players who averaged at least at some point18 ppg and shoot at least 36,8% Orlando Magic drafted in last 10 years? One. Oladipo. But not for them. And only for 1 season.

Among 11 best nba teams with THE BEST defense today, SIX OF THEM have record that is either negative, or very close to negative. Among top 11 defensive teams, there is Houston, with second worst record in whole league.
2# best nba defense today, New York Knicks, has defensive rating of 108,1, and they sit on 19-18 record.
108,1 defensive rating, in 2016-17 would rank them as 16th defense in nba and 15# in 2017-18.

On flip side, 113,4 offensive rating of Raptors, who are 10th best offense, would make them 2# best offense in 2017-18 and 2016-17.

Complete and utter expansion of modern basketball, mainly exstream spacing, knockdown shooters, incredible crafty ballhandlers and nba coaches adjusting to new systems.
Traditional defense simply cant' defend modern offense, building defensive minded team with limited offensive players isn't beneficial nor will ever again be rewarding. NBA simply went in another direction.

People claim Utah is great because of their defense, but what people fail to understand Utah has 4th best nba offense, and last year they were 12# defense but 10# offense kept them afloat. They have ONE elite defender on whole roster, with 2 solid ones ( Conley , Oneal).
Nets best defender is Kevin Durant. They are rulling nba. They will allow 120 points, Ugly i kow, but Irving, Harden ( on their own let alone with Durant) will also score 130 on everybody.

And that's why losing sleep over what Okeke ( 4,4 ppg, 38% FG) Bamba ( 5 ppg) and Isaac ( 10 ppg ) can do, on greater scale, is wasting time. They won't do anything against anybody good. Only chance how that trio can hang around nba and not get runned over is by adding 2 superstar guards. But adding two superstar guards ( Irving and Harden for example) is more than enough to win games regardless of trio you put them along side. Deadnre Jordan, Harris and wrong Bruce Bowen or Isaac, Bamba and Okeke, or 3 g league bodies. Doesn't matter.

Bamba at his apsolute best, if he develops in pick&roll defense, if he develops rolling game, if he stays healthy, if his BBIQ advances will never be anything else but 4th best player on playoff team. aka Brook Lopez. But since his level of talent is nowhere near Broook and his ( averaged 20 ppg at age of 22, was in condidirations for allstar game ) it's silly to talk about "potential" of player who is in nba for 3 yearas and who showed no signs of development of any of skills i mentioned before. Guy is turning 23 in like 2 months. He is not that young. So far 4 nba players selected in allstar game are actually younger than him.
Bamba on his own simply isn't that talented nor gifted player. He has poor hands in traffic, he is not elite after switching, his decision making and constant fouling on defense and non existing offense makes him liability. And all that- against backups most of the time. We talk about player who got outplayed by guy who spent 16 games in nba and was second round pick against Nets...

Half of the nba does not even use backup centers any more. Will some mid tear team take him and give him a ride? Sure. We would take on Kevin Knox and give him few min to see what's there, but odds are, Bamba nor Knox will never become anything more than replacment level rotation peaces in nba. Upcomming drafts are huge, next year teams will draft guys from highschool, new influx of talent every year, as usual, pushes old "shiny new toys" aside and replaces them with new one.
Talking how somebody will give Bamba $50M contract is laughable. Whiteside plays for vets minimum , McGee for $4M, Holmes for $5M, Ibaka is starting on contender for $9M . All of them are more proven nba players than Mo.

Magic had chance to draft Donovan Mitchell,Bam Adebayo, Mitchell Robinson, Michael Porter Jr and SGA.
Instad they drafted 2 defenders.
They bought costume to toxedo party.
It's time for front office to. It's time to get people who understand modern basketball. It's time to trade Evan for assets due contracts, Gordon,Bamba and Fultz due being poor fits in modern basketball.

First i want to say your post is hilarious, good job pepe. I agree with some, but in large part you are manipulating data (at least in entertaining way).
From 5 best teams in the nba right now, 4 are in top 5 of defensive rating. That shows you were very creative showcasing Knicks who are average defense benefiting mostly from opponents missing wide open 3s.
When you look at the numbers the easiest way to score is obviously 3 pointers, but whats interesting is that better offenses tend to shoot more unassisted 3s off the dribble, outside 76ers who use superstar drawing fouls in late clock situations and Clippers who use superstar midrange shooter.
So what type of defenders are the most valueable right now ? With increased space you need to be aware and smart to not get out of position. Protecting the paint is important, but just as important is closing out on 3 point shooters.

Isaac and Okeke are ideal exemples of modern defenders. Smart, long, agile, can protect both the rim and perimeter, dont get lost in rotations. They are also promising 3 point shooters. Okeke is already shooting 38,6 % from 3, Isaac is great free throw shooter for his size and just slitghly below average 3 point shooter right now. Okeke also showed some glimpses of live dribble passing which would be ideal next to JI. I am certain they can be part of really good offense.
Anthony was known for his off the dribble 3 point shooting, which was well above average even in his disastrous college season. He certainly can fit in modern offense. On defensive side he is tough and smart, making good reads and rotations. Modern player.
Bamba is the only player who right now doesnt look like modern player- slow, bad decision making, bad hands, cant pass, but even he has potential with his 3 point shooting and lob finishing. I was against drafting him, but i can understand the reasoning.
Thats 3 potential hits and 1 potential miss. Not bad if you ask me.

drsd wrote:Because of his height, he has only played C. But I really think coach Clifford should use the pre-season to assess whether Bamba's game is actually more suited for the PF slot.

Something has to change.

I don’t know whether that will work but I’m all for experimenting THIS season...if we lose, fine. We need to figure out what we have - the sooner, the better.