Moderators: UCF, Knightro, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, Def Swami, ChosenSavior, SOUL
Knightro wrote:Embiid is miles ahead of Vucevic as a defender and by any metric is considering a plus defender at the C spot.
Jokic and Vucevic are more similar as defenders, but Jokic has such a unicorn game offensively that it's really impossible and unfair to compare anyone to him on that end of the floor.
RookieStar wrote:Anyhoo.. latest WT says Vuc is happy where he is. Smokescreen or we keeping him longterm? lol
pepe1991 wrote:Skin wrote:Knightro wrote:
1. He's not the kind of player a non-contender would look to acquire. He's a win-now piece. That eliminates a good 10 teams right off the bat.
2. He makes a lot of money and most contenders who would be interested in acquiring him (a few exceptions like Boston with their TPE) would almost certainly have to give up at least one and maybe two rotation pieces to acquire Vucevic.
3. Fair or unfair most teams who are based around star guards or star wings prefer their big men to be strong defenders, which Vucevic is not.
1. Win now teams should have enough talent to flip back to us in an even trade.
2. Money shouldn't be an issue. ie.Everyone wants Beal. Teams would gladly combine contracts to make it happen.
3. Most teams? Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.
Never heard of that Jokic guy? Maybe if you watched some western conference finals last year you would. you were probably too busy watching Elfrid Payton mixtapes.
pepe1991 wrote:Skin wrote:Knightro wrote:
1. He's not the kind of player a non-contender would look to acquire. He's a win-now piece. That eliminates a good 10 teams right off the bat.
2. He makes a lot of money and most contenders who would be interested in acquiring him (a few exceptions like Boston with their TPE) would almost certainly have to give up at least one and maybe two rotation pieces to acquire Vucevic.
3. Fair or unfair most teams who are based around star guards or star wings prefer their big men to be strong defenders, which Vucevic is not.
1. Win now teams should have enough talent to flip back to us in an even trade.
2. Money shouldn't be an issue. ie.Everyone wants Beal. Teams would gladly combine contracts to make it happen.
3. Most teams? Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.
Never heard of that Jokic guy? Maybe if you watched some western conference finals last year you would. you were probably too busy watching Elfrid Payton mixtapes.
Skin wrote:RookieStar wrote:Anyhoo.. latest WT says Vuc is happy where he is. Smokescreen or we keeping him longterm? lol
His agent has been relaying info to him that the Magic are shopping him.
Magic_Johnny12 wrote:Vucevic isn't going anywhere, let's end the talk now before a lot of people in hear end up severely disappointed.
I just hope we do something with Fournier/Birch. I love the different iterations of Fournier to Denver (coincidentally that's where we originally nabbed him) in a similar scenario where we sent our vet (Affalo) for a younger prospect (hopefully this time its Hampton).
I expect Gordon to be moved in the off-season (no real reason to move him now).
Terrence is a culture guy so dont expect him to be moved so easily.
Skin wrote:pepe1991 wrote:Skin wrote:1. Win now teams should have enough talent to flip back to us in an even trade.
2. Money shouldn't be an issue. ie.Everyone wants Beal. Teams would gladly combine contracts to make it happen.
3. Most teams? Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.
Never heard of that Jokic guy? Maybe if you watched some western conference finals last year you would. you were probably too busy watching Elfrid Payton mixtapes.
I wanted Lavine and was a huge Elf hater here so I don't know if you're confusing me with someone else.
I stuck for AG for a good while until he reached his limit and showed he had no more growth in him. He taught me that no matter how much god given talent you have that you still need to have an aggressive mindset to be an attacker and in his case he's just too soft.
MagicMatic wrote:pepe1991 wrote:Skin wrote:1. Win now teams should have enough talent to flip back to us in an even trade.
2. Money shouldn't be an issue. ie.Everyone wants Beal. Teams would gladly combine contracts to make it happen.
3. Most teams? Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.
Never heard of that Jokic guy? Maybe if you watched some western conference finals last year you would. you were probably too busy watching Elfrid Payton mixtapes.
Jokic is the only example people have to defend this viewpoint. Even then, he couldn’t be in a better situation surrounded by guys that can shoot the basketball and also create for themselves. Jokic is a great Center in an ideal situation with his skill set. He’s also a complete anomaly compared to his counterparts, so it’s not really a valid example to refute his claim.
Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool.
Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool
pepe1991 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:pepe1991 wrote:
Never heard of that Jokic guy? Maybe if you watched some western conference finals last year you would. you were probably too busy watching Elfrid Payton mixtapes.
Jokic is the only example people have to defend this viewpoint. Even then, he couldn’t be in a better situation surrounded by guys that can shoot the basketball and also create for themselves. Jokic is a great Center in an ideal situation with his skill set. He’s also a complete anomaly compared to his counterparts, so it’s not really a valid example to refute his claim.
Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool.
Jokić also sucks on defense but nobody will ever bring that up because it devalues and debunks their own bias, right?
Joel Embiid is according to some media, front runner to win MVP, Jokic is in top 5.
Gobert is front runner for DPOY.
And you are backtracking claims you had in previous years where you claimed centers are thing of a past to now "teams are not built around offensive minded center"... except Jokic, witch you need extra 20 words to backtrack your point and mumble around because you can't explain your own claim without sounding silly.
ofc you won't mention Sabonis, Randle or how whole league is looking at T wolves to snatch Towns for them.
NBA is and always will be TALENT driven league, regardless is that talent PG, SG, SF, PF or C or whoever you wanna define positions. There are positions that are flat out more valuable, if everything is equal best SF has more value than C, but you are not taking 8th best PG over THE best center just because "centers don't matter" , you are not taking Mike Conley over Embiid, you are not taking Sexston over Jokic. That's just silly talk.
Most of the time you don't have chance to cherrypick what position your star player you want to be, you are happy to have at least one.Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool
It makes it flat out false. Minessota, Indiana, Orlando Magic, Denver Nuggets, 76ers , NY Knicks are actually running offense THROUGH their bigs. So, 20% league. But in reality, 100% of teams are running offense through best offensive player they have, not through position they deem to be" important" if they don't have player that can qualify for do what elite players at his position are asked.
I can tell you how easy it is to pick apart your reverse logic and attemp to manipulate statments.
How many nba teams run offense through playmaker?,Grizzlies, Warriors, Mavs, Blazers, Nets,Hawks, Cavs.
7. That is ONE team more than that teams that run through big. Does that make argument that you tried to insert true " Doesn't make your statment less true cosidering it's exception ...." since 23 of 30 don't actually run offense through playmaker?
Or i could go even further, yelling how 76,67% of nba is NOT runned through playmaker and how it's most unimportant nba position since there has been ZEROOOO finals MVPs that were PG since 2007. Or i can take another step and make claim how in last 22 years Tim Duncan at CENTER position won more Finals MVP than all PLAYMAKERS TOGETHER?
Or how Dirk, being PF, won more finals MVPs than all playmakers together in last 10 years?
.
MagicMatic wrote:pepe1991 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
Jokic is the only example people have to defend this viewpoint. Even then, he couldn’t be in a better situation surrounded by guys that can shoot the basketball and also create for themselves. Jokic is a great Center in an ideal situation with his skill set. He’s also a complete anomaly compared to his counterparts, so it’s not really a valid example to refute his claim.
Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool.
Jokić also sucks on defense but nobody will ever bring that up because it devalues and debunks their own bias, right?
Joel Embiid is according to some media, front runner to win MVP, Jokic is in top 5.
Gobert is front runner for DPOY.
And you are backtracking claims you had in previous years where you claimed centers are thing of a past to now "teams are not built around offensive minded center"... except Jokic, witch you need extra 20 words to backtrack your point and mumble around because you can't explain your own claim without sounding silly.
ofc you won't mention Sabonis, Randle or how whole league is looking at T wolves to snatch Towns for them.
NBA is and always will be TALENT driven league, regardless is that talent PG, SG, SF, PF or C or whoever you wanna define positions. There are positions that are flat out more valuable, if everything is equal best SF has more value than C, but you are not taking 8th best PG over THE best center just because "centers don't matter" , you are not taking Mike Conley over Embiid, you are not taking Sexston over Jokic. That's just silly talk.
Most of the time you don't have chance to cherrypick what position your star player you want to be, you are happy to have at least one.Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool
It makes it flat out false. Minessota, Indiana, Orlando Magic, Denver Nuggets, 76ers , NY Knicks are actually running offense THROUGH their bigs. So, 20% league. But in reality, 100% of teams are running offense through best offensive player they have, not through position they deem to be" important" if they don't have player that can qualify for do what elite players at his position are asked.
I can tell you how easy it is to pick apart your reverse logic and attemp to manipulate statments.
How many nba teams run offense through playmaker?,Grizzlies, Warriors, Mavs, Blazers, Nets,Hawks, Cavs.
7. That is ONE team more than that teams that run through big. Does that make argument that you tried to insert true " Doesn't make your statment less true cosidering it's exception ...." since 23 of 30 don't actually run offense through playmaker?
Or i could go even further, yelling how 76,67% of nba is NOT runned through playmaker and how it's most unimportant nba position since there has been ZEROOOO finals MVPs that were PG since 2007. Or i can take another step and make claim how in last 22 years Tim Duncan at CENTER position won more Finals MVP than all PLAYMAKERS TOGETHER?
Or how Dirk, being PF, won more finals MVPs than all playmakers together in last 10 years?
.
Pepe you move goalposts so often it’s almost pointless to reply to you.
“ [b]Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.”
This is hilarious part. You leave Denver on purpose because Jokić makes you look dumb as bricks for saying tihs. But i won't let it go. Pepe <3
[/b]That statement doesn’t include Embiid or Gobert because it doesn’t apply to them.
Why do you always claim I’m backtracking? I’ve been 100% consistent with my views on this over YEARS. True Centers are a thing of the past and you don’t need to spend big money, or high draft picks, on them to build a capable team to compete. Period. No essay that you write about Vucevic will change my mind on that.
Funny how you keep continually using Embiid and Jokic as your examples for “Centers being highly valued on offense”.. that’s where the list ends. Good call out on Sabonis and Randle. Two great examples of productive bigs on teams that are going nowhere fast.
And to your last statement... yes that’s why I said PAST, i.e. things that happened in the past. You yourself always bitch about the game being played with scores ending in 130-140, so it’s just reality. Are you saying that it’s not the case? Which is it? Do you even know what you are arguing about anymore? Lol.
By the way you never answered my question. Where did you live in the greater Orlando area?
Two great examples of productive bigs on teams that are going nowhere fast.
Why do you always claim I’m backtracking? I’ve been 100% consistent with my views on this over YEARS. True Centers are a thing of the past and you don’t need to spend big money, or high draft picks, on them to build a capable team to compete. Period.
MagicMatic wrote:pepe1991 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
Jokic is the only example people have to defend this viewpoint. Even then, he couldn’t be in a better situation surrounded by guys that can shoot the basketball and also create for themselves. Jokic is a great Center in an ideal situation with his skill set. He’s also a complete anomaly compared to his counterparts, so it’s not really a valid example to refute his claim.
Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool.
Jokić also sucks on defense but nobody will ever bring that up because it devalues and debunks their own bias, right?
Joel Embiid is according to some media, front runner to win MVP, Jokic is in top 5.
Gobert is front runner for DPOY.
And you are backtracking claims you had in previous years where you claimed centers are thing of a past to now "teams are not built around offensive minded center"... except Jokic, witch you need extra 20 words to backtrack your point and mumble around because you can't explain your own claim without sounding silly.
ofc you won't mention Sabonis, Randle or how whole league is looking at T wolves to snatch Towns for them.
NBA is and always will be TALENT driven league, regardless is that talent PG, SG, SF, PF or C or whoever you wanna define positions. There are positions that are flat out more valuable, if everything is equal best SF has more value than C, but you are not taking 8th best PG over THE best center just because "centers don't matter" , you are not taking Mike Conley over Embiid, you are not taking Sexston over Jokic. That's just silly talk.
Most of the time you don't have chance to cherrypick what position your star player you want to be, you are happy to have at least one.Doesn’t make his statement less true considering it’s the exception and not the rule. So 29/30 teams? Cool
It makes it flat out false. Minessota, Indiana, Orlando Magic, Denver Nuggets, 76ers , NY Knicks are actually running offense THROUGH their bigs. So, 20% league. But in reality, 100% of teams are running offense through best offensive player they have, not through position they deem to be" important" if they don't have player that can qualify for do what elite players at his position are asked.
I can tell you how easy it is to pick apart your reverse logic and attemp to manipulate statments.
How many nba teams run offense through playmaker?,Grizzlies, Warriors, Mavs, Blazers, Nets,Hawks, Cavs.
7. That is ONE team more than that teams that run through big. Does that make argument that you tried to insert true " Doesn't make your statment less true cosidering it's exception ...." since 23 of 30 don't actually run offense through playmaker?
Or i could go even further, yelling how 76,67% of nba is NOT runned through playmaker and how it's most unimportant nba position since there has been ZEROOOO finals MVPs that were PG since 2007. Or i can take another step and make claim how in last 22 years Tim Duncan at CENTER position won more Finals MVP than all PLAYMAKERS TOGETHER?
Or how Dirk, being PF, won more finals MVPs than all playmakers together in last 10 years?
.
Pepe you move goalposts so often it’s almost pointless to reply to you.
“ Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.”
That statement doesn’t include Embiid or Gobert because it doesn’t apply to them.
Why do you always claim I’m backtracking? I’ve been 100% consistent with my views on this over YEARS. True Centers are a thing of the past and you don’t need to spend big money, or high draft picks, on them to build a capable team to compete. Period. No essay that you write about Vucevic will change my mind on that.
Funny how you keep continually using Embiid and Jokic as your examples for “Centers being highly valued on offense”.. that’s where the list ends. Good call out on Sabonis and Randle. Two great examples of productive bigs on teams that are going nowhere fast.
And to your last statement... yes that’s why I said PAST, i.e. things that happened in the past. You yourself always bitch about the game being played with scores ending in 130-140, so it’s just reality. Are you saying that it’s not the case? Which is it? Do you even know what you are arguing about anymore? Lol.
By the way you never answered my question. Where did you live in the greater Orlando area?
MasterGMer wrote:MagicMatic wrote:pepe1991 wrote:
Jokić also sucks on defense but nobody will ever bring that up because it devalues and debunks their own bias, right?
Joel Embiid is according to some media, front runner to win MVP, Jokic is in top 5.
Gobert is front runner for DPOY.
And you are backtracking claims you had in previous years where you claimed centers are thing of a past to now "teams are not built around offensive minded center"... except Jokic, witch you need extra 20 words to backtrack your point and mumble around because you can't explain your own claim without sounding silly.
ofc you won't mention Sabonis, Randle or how whole league is looking at T wolves to snatch Towns for them.
NBA is and always will be TALENT driven league, regardless is that talent PG, SG, SF, PF or C or whoever you wanna define positions. There are positions that are flat out more valuable, if everything is equal best SF has more value than C, but you are not taking 8th best PG over THE best center just because "centers don't matter" , you are not taking Mike Conley over Embiid, you are not taking Sexston over Jokic. That's just silly talk.
Most of the time you don't have chance to cherrypick what position your star player you want to be, you are happy to have at least one.
It makes it flat out false. Minessota, Indiana, Orlando Magic, Denver Nuggets, 76ers , NY Knicks are actually running offense THROUGH their bigs. So, 20% league. But in reality, 100% of teams are running offense through best offensive player they have, not through position they deem to be" important" if they don't have player that can qualify for do what elite players at his position are asked.
I can tell you how easy it is to pick apart your reverse logic and attemp to manipulate statments.
How many nba teams run offense through playmaker?,Grizzlies, Warriors, Mavs, Blazers, Nets,Hawks, Cavs.
7. That is ONE team more than that teams that run through big. Does that make argument that you tried to insert true " Doesn't make your statment less true cosidering it's exception ...." since 23 of 30 don't actually run offense through playmaker?
Or i could go even further, yelling how 76,67% of nba is NOT runned through playmaker and how it's most unimportant nba position since there has been ZEROOOO finals MVPs that were PG since 2007. Or i can take another step and make claim how in last 22 years Tim Duncan at CENTER position won more Finals MVP than all PLAYMAKERS TOGETHER?
Or how Dirk, being PF, won more finals MVPs than all playmakers together in last 10 years?
.
Pepe you move goalposts so often it’s almost pointless to reply to you.
“ Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.”
That statement doesn’t include Embiid or Gobert because it doesn’t apply to them.
Why do you always claim I’m backtracking? I’ve been 100% consistent with my views on this over YEARS. True Centers are a thing of the past and you don’t need to spend big money, or high draft picks, on them to build a capable team to compete. Period. No essay that you write about Vucevic will change my mind on that.
Funny how you keep continually using Embiid and Jokic as your examples for “Centers being highly valued on offense”.. that’s where the list ends. Good call out on Sabonis and Randle. Two great examples of productive bigs on teams that are going nowhere fast.
And to your last statement... yes that’s why I said PAST, i.e. things that happened in the past. You yourself always bitch about the game being played with scores ending in 130-140, so it’s just reality. Are you saying that it’s not the case? Which is it? Do you even know what you are arguing about anymore? Lol.
By the way you never answered my question. Where did you live in the greater Orlando area?
I agree with Pepe. It is a talent driven league. I do not care if you are a center or SG. Position is mostly matchup nowadays. And Matchups are merely size.
That is the exact reason we see players like Jokic and others flourishing in the league. Because they have talent. Not position
pepe1991 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:pepe1991 wrote:
Jokić also sucks on defense but nobody will ever bring that up because it devalues and debunks their own bias, right?
Joel Embiid is according to some media, front runner to win MVP, Jokic is in top 5.
Gobert is front runner for DPOY.
And you are backtracking claims you had in previous years where you claimed centers are thing of a past to now "teams are not built around offensive minded center"... except Jokic, witch you need extra 20 words to backtrack your point and mumble around because you can't explain your own claim without sounding silly.
ofc you won't mention Sabonis, Randle or how whole league is looking at T wolves to snatch Towns for them.
NBA is and always will be TALENT driven league, regardless is that talent PG, SG, SF, PF or C or whoever you wanna define positions. There are positions that are flat out more valuable, if everything is equal best SF has more value than C, but you are not taking 8th best PG over THE best center just because "centers don't matter" , you are not taking Mike Conley over Embiid, you are not taking Sexston over Jokic. That's just silly talk.
Most of the time you don't have chance to cherrypick what position your star player you want to be, you are happy to have at least one.
It makes it flat out false. Minessota, Indiana, Orlando Magic, Denver Nuggets, 76ers , NY Knicks are actually running offense THROUGH their bigs. So, 20% league. But in reality, 100% of teams are running offense through best offensive player they have, not through position they deem to be" important" if they don't have player that can qualify for do what elite players at his position are asked.
I can tell you how easy it is to pick apart your reverse logic and attemp to manipulate statments.
How many nba teams run offense through playmaker?,Grizzlies, Warriors, Mavs, Blazers, Nets,Hawks, Cavs.
7. That is ONE team more than that teams that run through big. Does that make argument that you tried to insert true " Doesn't make your statment less true cosidering it's exception ...." since 23 of 30 don't actually run offense through playmaker?
Or i could go even further, yelling how 76,67% of nba is NOT runned through playmaker and how it's most unimportant nba position since there has been ZEROOOO finals MVPs that were PG since 2007. Or i can take another step and make claim how in last 22 years Tim Duncan at CENTER position won more Finals MVP than all PLAYMAKERS TOGETHER?
Or how Dirk, being PF, won more finals MVPs than all playmakers together in last 10 years?
.
Pepe you move goalposts so often it’s almost pointless to reply to you.
“ [b]Only the Magic and the Wolves are trying to build a team around an offensive Center who doesn't possess strong defensive skills. It simply doesn't work. It's beyond proven. But you're right about that being a reason on why Vuc has low trade value.”
This is hilarious part. You leave Denver on purpose because Jokić makes you look dumb as bricks for saying tihs. But i won't let it go. Pepe <3
[/b]That statement doesn’t include Embiid or Gobert because it doesn’t apply to them.
Why do you always claim I’m backtracking? I’ve been 100% consistent with my views on this over YEARS. True Centers are a thing of the past and you don’t need to spend big money, or high draft picks, on them to build a capable team to compete. Period. No essay that you write about Vucevic will change my mind on that.
Funny how you keep continually using Embiid and Jokic as your examples for “Centers being highly valued on offense”.. that’s where the list ends. Good call out on Sabonis and Randle. Two great examples of productive bigs on teams that are going nowhere fast.
And to your last statement... yes that’s why I said PAST, i.e. things that happened in the past. You yourself always bitch about the game being played with scores ending in 130-140, so it’s just reality. Are you saying that it’s not the case? Which is it? Do you even know what you are arguing about anymore? Lol.
By the way you never answered my question. Where did you live in the greater Orlando area?Two great examples of productive bigs on teams that are going nowhere fast.
Pacers going nowhere by being 4th seed last year, just having injuries of their key players like Warren and literally Levert has kidney cancer?
Knicks going nowhere? After years of sucking they are currently 5th in standings
Well, that was sad, even for you.
"Other than Jokić and Embiid"
Embiid- liteally the best player on THE BEST RANKED TEAM ON EAST
Jokic- literally the best player on the team that went to WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS FEW MONTHS AGO.Why do you always claim I’m backtracking? I’ve been 100% consistent with my views on this over YEARS. True Centers are a thing of the past and you don’t need to spend big money, or high draft picks, on them to build a capable team to compete. Period.
It's all fine, we all know you are wrong for years. Period. Now be good boy and pad yourself on a back one more time
Btw do you know why Lakers suck without Davis ? Defense, nah, the best defense in nba. They miss his offense. Sheesh. They miss OFFENSE OF A big. Impossible, according to you, right? SInce you well established centers on offense = no good.
Hilarious. just hilarious. It's amazing how blinded you are when it comes to reality. Jokić plays no defense, he is better than vast majority of point guards and more valuable than most SFs because he is more talented than them. Tlanet> everything else. But you can't let your bias go.
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:RookieStar wrote:Anyhoo.. latest WT says Vuc is happy where he is. Smokescreen or we keeping him longterm? lol
if anything it's interesting timing which would mean Magic are taking calls on him. also somewhat of an open ended question of " Do you wish you played for a contender" What's he going to say I hate playing with these G League players this FO has put me with outside of Fultz Isaac AG and TRoss
Blue_and_Whte wrote:MartinsIzAfraud wrote:RookieStar wrote:Anyhoo.. latest WT says Vuc is happy where he is. Smokescreen or we keeping him longterm? lol
if anything it's interesting timing which would mean Magic are taking calls on him. also somewhat of an open ended question of " Do you wish you played for a contender" What's he going to say I hate playing with these G League players this FO has put me with outside of Fultz Isaac AG and TRoss
They should be
