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Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer)

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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#201 » by pepe1991 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:46 pm

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
Because we were the only team in the league that was going to give him such a big role for an extended period of time and that big of a contract. It's easy to be loyal to that when you know you have no chance of having these opportunities on any other team. Comparing him to our other past stars is laughable. He was merely an average player until Clifford came here and expanded his game.


He would still get payed, regardless of team he went. He decided to stay with Magic, making im only allstar that did stay. He become Allstar BEFORE free agency.
During same free agency, Kemba signed max contract, Tobias Harris signed max contract, Middelton signed max contract, D'angelo Russsell and Horford both got huge contrats. Barnes also got ugly overpayed, Bojan got huge contract, Valenchunas and Rozier both got payed.

It's very easy to compare them, their money, their production and figure Vuc contract was bargin for Orlando.

But most people refuse to argue facts.

If you look at retrospective of 2019 free agency, Vuc was one of bets constructed contracts for value. Easly.


This is nonsense. He isn't a bargain. He is overpaid and overutilized. Even though he worked out his extension before free agency, he knew his market value. It's his agent's job to know it. It was the same situation with Gordon, but that hasn't stopped people from arguing that nobody made him an offer.

He isn't trying to force his way out because he has another contract to worry about and he stands to lose a lot of money if he changes teams or if this team decides to go in another direction.



aah here we go again.
45 th highest payed player in league that has around 400 players and around 120 of them can't even be payed more due rookie scale contracts. It's such an utter bulls*** to even reply to such an biased nonsense.

Overulitized, 25 ppg on 57% TS. On team that didn't have 20 ppg + 55% TS since 2011-12 Dwight, who, btw had worst TS% and average less points. Go figure :lol:


So let' me go through your line of thinking. Vuc refuses to be traded ( despite having no no-trade clause or anything like that, and has no control over menagment decisions, witch already busts your whole moronic logic) so he can angle a re-sign that can't happen for next 27 months? Jesus Chris this might be biggest reach to find "logic" in argument i have ever seen.


Why even bring Gordon? We try to trade him for years and only offers we get are -angry chivava Oubre and non-lottery pick from bad draft, lottery protected Blazers pick that won't land anywhere near top 20 and dead body of Ariza .
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#202 » by Skin » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:09 pm

The proof is in the pudding. Vuc is a fantastic offensive player and has been our #1 guy for the last 9 years. In that time we have completely stunk as a team. What more proof does anyone need to see in order to realize something about the way this team is constructed is fundamentally flawed?

Not only can we not trade him for an All-Star caliber wing, we can't even trade him for a good one. His value simply doesn't command it. What does the rest of the NBA tell you about that? Teams are willing to give up a ton for Beal, but in Vuc's case... nada.
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#203 » by yoyojw17 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:34 pm

Skin wrote:The proof is in the pudding. Vuc is a fantastic offensive player and has been our #1 guy for the last 9 years. In that time we have completely stunk as a team. What more proof does anyone need to see in order to realize something about the way this team is constructed is fundamentally flawed?

Not only can we not trade him for an All-Star caliber wing, we can't even trade him for a good one. His value simply doesn't command it. What does the rest of the NBA tell you about that? Teams are willing to give up a ton for Beal, but in Vuc's case... nada.


As you said TEAM... this is a team sport. A team is a sum of all the parts. Not everyone can throw everything on their shoulders and carry them to the promise land. Anthony davis was a great player on a **** TEAM. Now look at him. Immediate champion. Can't just simplify it to such a level. Health has played a huge part in the last few year as well. We've made it to the playoff and busted ass in each of them... but sadly 1st seed vs. injured/maturing 8th seed doesn't help the outcome. If you can honestly say that both the Toronto and Milwakee Series would have not even changed a little if AG ... JI.... etc... were healthy... then you might... have had a point. Instead we were starting 3rd stringers in many cases... but then we wanna close the book on the notion that things couldn't be better.

and who says we "Cannot trade him"...? Just because there are rumors and that magic haven't pulled the trigger.... ?
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#204 » by pepe1991 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:52 pm

Skin wrote:The proof is in the pudding. Vuc is a fantastic offensive player and has been our #1 guy for the last 9 years. In that time we have completely stunk as a team. What more proof does anyone need to see in order to realize something about the way this team is constructed is fundamentally flawed?

Not only can we not trade him for an All-Star caliber wing, we can't even trade him for a good one. His value simply doesn't command it. What does the rest of the NBA tell you about that? Teams are willing to give up a ton for Beal, but in Vuc's case... nada.


Anthony Davis with Pelicans missed playoffs 5 times in 7 years, passed first round once, lost 4-1 in second round. That's one of best players in nba that can't uplift terrible team .

Lebron James, left with injuries, and sustaining injury himself, missed playoffs.

Point you are making, despite not knowing that you are making great point for Vuc is very clear one, i'll just help you get to the bottom of it.

Nikola Vučević is great nba player that, like any other nba star, can't uplift terrible team or save menagment from bad decisions. Much like it's case with Pelicans, who wasted their best player in franchise history due poor roster decisions, Orlando Magic did the same by constantly drafting, trading or signing bad players that don't provide additional value. It's not first time Magic wasted their best player, did the same with T mac ,Shaq and lesser exstend Dwight.


Not only can we not trade him for an All-Star caliber wing, we can't even trade him for a good one.


this is another great point, that you made, by trying to prove something else. Vučević is actually only Orlando Magic player that gained any interest from great organisations such are Celtics or Spurs. Most nba teams don't even pick a phone for rest of Orlando Magic players. Rumors about Gordon were from Blazers (first round sweep last year ) and Suns ( deep tankers last year ) and Minessota TImberwolves, who didn't make playoffs since days when Nokia 33 10 was hottest mobile phone in the world.

Contratulations. it took you some uplift from me ( because , remember, basketball is team sport) but with me at helm , you made first smart post since your writup about Isaac 4 years ago. :clap:
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#205 » by MagicMatic » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:56 pm

What I find interesting in these debates is that the majority of people that view Vuc as essential in moving forward are a lot of the same people that are apologists for the front office.

So which is it? Vuc hasn’t lead a successful Magic team due primarily to the FO’s decisions, or is it because he isn't a real primary option?
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#206 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:12 pm

MagicMatic wrote:What I find interesting in these debates is that the majority of people that view Vuc as essential in moving forward are a lot of the same people that are apologists for the front office.

So which is it? Vuc hasn’t lead a successful Magic team due primarily to the FO’s decisions, or is it because he isn't a real primary option?


Worst part is this FO could've made 3-4 different decisions and this team w/Vuc is 10x different.
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#207 » by Def Swami » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:17 pm

MagicMatic wrote:What I find interesting in these debates is that the majority of people that view Vuc as essential in moving forward are a lot of the same people that are apologists for the front office.

So which is it? Vuc hasn’t lead a successful Magic team due primarily to the FO’s decisions, or is it because he isn't a real primary option?

I think it's both.

I don't blame Vucevic for not being a primary option. It was never his destiny. He still probably maximized whatever his ceiling is as a player and made two all-star games.

But, I think it speaks more to the failures of two front offices that could never find any talent equal to what Vucevic provides in 8 years. The whole point of rebuilding is to find an all-NBA guy, and in 8 years, the best they could do was Vucevic and a lot of okay to good role players. He is probably best served as a 3rd option on a championship team, and 2nd on an okay playoff team.

He's certainly not essential. The Magic can miss the playoffs without him. It seems obvious that the Magic have chosen their path forward, which means getting back to a playoff pursuit next season with Fultz and Isaac returning. And I think that's a noble goal. This front office will never "tear it down." I've given up on that idea. It's never going to be in the cards. They value playoff appearances, fan interest, TV ratings, attendance too much.

This season is a godsend IMHO. A get out of jail free card for the front office. Trying to find talent in the mid-first round of the draft year after year to find the next Giannis doesn't seem like a sound plan. But, picking top 5 this year could yield someone that could raise the ceiling of the team. The draft is always a crapshoot and requires all the luck. Prayers up. Fingers crossed.

The play should be to be the '17-'18 Jazz next year. Draft a Donovan Mitchell level talent and add him to a veteran team. Land a 5 seed. And build from there. And again, a lot of that involves luck and trust in a front office that hasn't garnered much.
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#208 » by D12VCMagic » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:34 pm

Skin wrote:The proof is in the pudding. Vuc is a fantastic offensive player and has been our #1 guy for the last 9 years. In that time we have completely stunk as a team. What more proof does anyone need to see in order to realize something about the way this team is constructed is fundamentally flawed?

Not only can we not trade him for an All-Star caliber wing, we can't even trade him for a good one. His value simply doesn't command it. What does the rest of the NBA tell you about that? Teams are willing to give up a ton for Beal, but in Vuc's case... nada.


We’ve only had one winning season with Vooch so far and it was the worst possible winning season you can get away with. It’s not Vooch’s fault the organization sucks and couldn’t find anyone better, but I worry him having a career year in an injury riddled season will lead the front office into doubling down on him as our focal point player again when they should be trying their hardest to get the guy some help.
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#209 » by basketballRob » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:40 pm

tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Jokic is 10x as good as Vuc on defense and nearly 3x better on offense.




https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=jokicni01&player_id1=vucevni01&sum=0&request=1
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yeah, no. Joker is better on offense, better passer and better ball handling. Vuc better rebounder, they are very close as defenders (not 10x difference)
Based on advanced stats he is way better than Vuc. Of course Vuc gets more rebounds, he stands under the basket on defense. Vuc is in the same city, but not in his neighborhood.

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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#210 » by tiderulz » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:53 pm

basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Jokic is 10x as good as Vuc on defense and nearly 3x better on offense.




https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=jokicni01&player_id1=vucevni01&sum=0&request=1
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yeah, no. Joker is better on offense, better passer and better ball handling. Vuc better rebounder, they are very close as defenders (not 10x difference)
Based on advanced stats he is way better than Vuc. Of course Vuc gets more rebounds, he stands under the basket on defense. Vuc is in the same city, but not in his neighborhood.

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which advanced stats show he is 10x the defender?
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#211 » by basketballRob » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:57 pm

tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:yeah, no. Joker is better on offense, better passer and better ball handling. Vuc better rebounder, they are very close as defenders (not 10x difference)
Based on advanced stats he is way better than Vuc. Of course Vuc gets more rebounds, he stands under the basket on defense. Vuc is in the same city, but not in his neighborhood.

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which advanced stats show he is 10x the defender?
DBPM

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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#212 » by basketballRob » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:00 pm

Actually I was wrong, Jokic is 25× better defender than Vuc this year. It's not because Jokic is on a better defensive team either. Vuc had bad defensive stats when we were a top 10 defensive team.

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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#213 » by tiderulz » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:05 pm

basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Based on advanced stats he is way better than Vuc. Of course Vuc gets more rebounds, he stands under the basket on defense. Vuc is in the same city, but not in his neighborhood.

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which advanced stats show he is 10x the defender?
DBPM

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DRTG? DWS? both favor Vuc. you are pointing to one stat. are there others? or just that one
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#214 » by basketballRob » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:20 pm

tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:which advanced stats show he is 10x the defender?
DBPM

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DRTG? DWS? both favor Vuc. you are pointing to one stat. are there others? or just that one
Like you said if Vuc gets more rebounds, blocks, and steals, then he has more ws. If you look at who's more effective at allowing the other team to score less, it's Jokic.

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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#215 » by tiderulz » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:21 pm

basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:DBPM

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DRTG? DWS? both favor Vuc. you are pointing to one stat. are there others? or just that one
Like you said if Vuc gets more rebounds, blocks, and steals, then he has more ws. If you look at who's more effective at allowing the other team to score less, it's Jokic.

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well, 10x the defender to me would point to multiple stats. any plux/minus heavily relies on whoever else is on the court with them.
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#216 » by basketballRob » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:36 pm

tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:DRTG? DWS? both favor Vuc. you are pointing to one stat. are there others? or just that one
Like you said if Vuc gets more rebounds, blocks, and steals, then he has more ws. If you look at who's more effective at allowing the other team to score less, it's Jokic.

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well, 10x the defender to me would point to multiple stats. any plux/minus heavily relies on whoever else is on the court with them.
Pepe says we shouldn't use basketball reference and should use the NBA.com's net rating. He told me that after Mo had a bad net rating his rookie year. If we go by that, Vuc is -8.6 and Jokic is +8.3. I believe Jokic's defensive rating is 111.2 and Vuc is 113.6.

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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#217 » by Skybox » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:37 pm

Is there a way to block nonsense posters...Seriously, I enjoy a good debate with some basis in fact but I'm convinced there's a middle school kid here who gets home from school, has a PBJ with milk and then starts posting s**t
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#218 » by Skybox » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:46 pm

MagicMatic wrote:What I find interesting in these debates is that the majority of people that view Vuc as essential in moving forward are a lot of the same people that are apologists for the front office.


I don't recall ANYONE endorsing the FO...I don't think every move they've made are utter garbage but I honestly didn't think anyone here could be satisfied with their "patience". I value Vuc more than some here but let me be on the record as dissatisfied with WeHam.
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#219 » by Blue_and_Whte » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:55 pm

Skybox wrote:
Blue_and_Whte wrote:The Vooch debates are so damn tiring. People are creating posts that are forty **** two paragraphs long that say absolutely nothing.



guilty...IDK why I care to defend him from haters. Not saying I'm wrong - just tired of wasting energy. But some of these statistical BS attacks are laughable...I defer to the NBA COACHES that AGAIN voted him into the ASG.

I mean if he’s causing people this much misery then maybe stop watching like a few people say they’re going to.
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Re: Latest Magic Trade Rumors (Kevin O'Connor/The Ringer) 

Post#220 » by RookieStar » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:06 pm

Blue_and_Whte wrote:
Skybox wrote:
Blue_and_Whte wrote:The Vooch debates are so damn tiring. People are creating posts that are forty **** two paragraphs long that say absolutely nothing.



guilty...IDK why I care to defend him from haters. Not saying I'm wrong - just tired of wasting energy. But some of these statistical BS attacks are laughable...I defer to the NBA COACHES that AGAIN voted him into the ASG.

I mean if he’s causing people this much misery then maybe stop watching like a few people say they’re going to.


Not only that, but this thread is/was about the impending trade deadline and our expected moves but instead it became almost all about Vuc. Why is he living rent-free in other posters heads?

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