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Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks

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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#361 » by thelead » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:51 pm

Skybox wrote:
thelead wrote:I didn't want anything to do with WCJ before the draft and I still don't. I can't believe this is the best they could get for Vuc. We now have to hope for a Lavine or Vuc injury for those picks to be of any value. For all the talk about picks, is another Chuma or Cole (mid round picks) really going to move the needle much?


I can’t believe YOU are already complaining about a Vuc trade


I'm just so bummed because I feel like we got nothing but a shot a the tank back. I'm just not a WCJ fan at all. And then the picks will likely be mid round picks. I wasn't a Vuc fan but damn... we couldn't have gotten back a better return than an underwhelming WCJ and future Chuma/Cole level players?
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#362 » by Skybox » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:53 pm

2 fun facts I was wrong in my assumptions about...

1. WCJ has been making 3’s this year (low volume but...)
2. OPJ is actually playing

Let’s see what we have. Perhaps OPJ does stick. Perhaps Harris regains his trade value for draft night as more than just an expiring $20m
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#363 » by SOUL » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:59 pm

thelead wrote:I'm just so bummed because I feel like we got nothing but a shot a the tank back. I'm just not a WCJ fan at all. And then the picks will likely be mid round picks. I wasn't a Vuc fan but damn... we couldn't have gotten back a better return than an underwhelming WCJ and future Chuma/Cole level players?


What is a Chuma/Cole level player? They're in their first years and we have no idea how they will turn out. And different drafts have different levels of players available at any range, it's about picking correctly (which is another challenge), but I don't think anybody would scoff at another late lottery or 1st rounder because I know at draft time people will complain about not having another 1st round pick or early 2nd to take an interesting player.

Cole was a 15th pick but so was Giannis and Kawhi. Chuma was the 16th pick but so was Vucevic. There is talent to be had even if it is really hard to predict.

Also we don't even know where the pick is gonna land, anything can happen. WCJ, sure, obviously some people are higher on him than others (I want to see him vs Bamba compete to start) but I'm not sure what sort of picks you're expecting for Vuc because most teams who would want Vuc are teams that are already contending, and the Bulls are not that.

In fact, the picks are looking better than what Houston got from Harden currently since the Bulls are still a young team and the Bulls are currently in the 10th spot. It may end up being 15-20 but still..
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#364 » by RookieStar » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:01 pm

Def Swami wrote:This is my biggest concern with this trade. Bottoming out is a risky game. I always thought the Magic landing a top 4 pick and bringing Fultz, Isaac, and Vucevic back next year would have been a nice blend of veterans and young players and allowed for a bridge to the next iteration of the Orlando Magic. This is a full blow rebuild that will probably take at least 3 years to crawl out of. And oftentimes, it will take longer.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#365 » by thelead » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:04 pm

SOUL wrote:
thelead wrote:I'm just so bummed because I feel like we got nothing but a shot a the tank back. I'm just not a WCJ fan at all. And then the picks will likely be mid round picks. I wasn't a Vuc fan but damn... we couldn't have gotten back a better return than an underwhelming WCJ and future Chuma/Cole level players?


What is a Chuma/Cole level player? They're in their first years and we have no idea how they will turn out. And different drafts have different levels of players available at any range, it's about picking correctly (which is another challenge), but I don't think anybody would scoff at another late lottery or 1st rounder because I know at draft time people will complain about not having another 1st round pick or early 2nd to take an interesting player.

Cole was a 15th pick but so was Giannis and Kawhi. Chuma was the 16th pick but so was Vucevic. There is talent to be had even if it is really hard to predict.

Also we don't even know where the pick is gonna land, anything can happen. WCJ, sure, obviously some people are higher on him than others (I want to see him vs Bamba compete to start) but I'm not sure what sort of picks you're expecting for Vuc because most teams who would want Vuc are teams that are already contending, and the Bulls are not that.

In fact, the picks are looking better than what Houston got from Harden currently since the Bulls are still a young team and the Bulls are currently in the 10th spot. It may end up being 15-20 but still..

To me, Cole and Chuma are role players. That is what you can hope for in the 15-20 range. A lot of my hate for this deal is that I was VERY anti WCJ pre-draft and I still feel that way. He barely plays, and when he does, he sulks. Clifford is going to kill him or quit :lol:
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#366 » by SOUL » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:06 pm

thelead wrote:To me, Cole and Chuma are role players. That is what you can hope for in the 15-20 range. A lot of my hate for this deal is that I was VERY anti WCJ pre-draft and I still feel that way. He barely plays, and when he does, he sulks. Clifford is going to kill him or quit :lol:


Yeah but the thing is you can draft busts or stars at any draft spot and those are two MVPs/MVP caliber players and a 2x all-star that were drafted at those same spots. I will gladly take another pick there on top of ours, WITH the chance of the Bulls pick being even lower if things go our way.

I just don't think there is any for sure asset that was on the market. Yeah, it would've been amazing to get an SGA level prospect like the Paul George trade on top of picks, but that doesn't happen often.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#367 » by Skybox » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:10 pm

I’m not crazy about trading Vuc for prayers but these are about the best picks we could have hoped for....minimal protections and a leaderless, perhaps overly optimistic team. General consensus has always been that neither Vuc or Lavine are #1 options on great teams. I would argue that at full health ORL roster (yesterday) was better than CHI today. If everything clicks with Donovan, Lauri, and their mediocre guards (other than Zach), they’ll be really good but that could take time (THIS years pick :D ) and it might not work at all...to paraphrase what many here believe “Vuc needs the offense to run through him” and “Vuc gets empty stats on a bad team”...I’ve also heard analysts say that “nobody in the league does less to make others better than Lavine”...we’re going to find out
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#368 » by nymets1 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:13 pm

All 3 players had to go (Vuc, Gordon, Fournier). They all been here at least several years or more and we don't win playoff games/series with them. Actually we have 1 playoff win over Toronto to avoid getting swept and that's it and that's not acceptable. We basically only win regular season games with them. We haven't had a team since we had (Dwight, Jameer, Rafer Alston, Hedo, Rashard Lewis) on the team.

We got quite a bit of picks from the 3 trades and a lot of young guys with potential in RJ hampton and Wendell Carter. Who's the best player we got from in the trades today? Wendell Carter? It's got to be between him and Hampton.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#369 » by thelead » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:15 pm

SOUL wrote:
thelead wrote:To me, Cole and Chuma are role players. That is what you can hope for in the 15-20 range. A lot of my hate for this deal is that I was VERY anti WCJ pre-draft and I still feel that way. He barely plays, and when he does, he sulks. Clifford is going to kill him or quit :lol:


Yeah but the thing is you can draft busts or stars at any draft spot and those are two MVPs/MVP caliber players and a 2x all-star that were drafted at those same spots. I will gladly take another pick there on top of ours, WITH the chance of the Bulls pick being even lower if things go our way.

I just don't think there is any for sure asset that was on the market. Yeah, it would've been amazing to get an SGA level prospect like the Paul George trade on top of picks, but that doesn't happen often.

That's kinda my point though. I would have rather them dump Evan/AG, and keep Vuc until they could at least get an SGA level prospect. I don't even need the extra picks then (and wouldn't expect it for Vuc). Hell, Langford and Nesmith (which we hoping we could get for AG) sounds better to me than two 15-20 picks and WCJ. But, hey, it is what it is. My frustration is compounded with the AG trade as well by bringing back another athlete that can't shoot in RJ. We traded for quantity of assets instead of quality IMO.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#370 » by Skybox » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:17 pm

thelead wrote:
SOUL wrote:
thelead wrote:I'm just so bummed because I feel like we got nothing but a shot a the tank back. I'm just not a WCJ fan at all. And then the picks will likely be mid round picks. I wasn't a Vuc fan but damn... we couldn't have gotten back a better return than an underwhelming WCJ and future Chuma/Cole level players?


What is a Chuma/Cole level player? They're in their first years and we have no idea how they will turn out. And different drafts have different levels of players available at any range, it's about picking correctly (which is another challenge), but I don't think anybody would scoff at another late lottery or 1st rounder because I know at draft time people will complain about not having another 1st round pick or early 2nd to take an interesting player.

Cole was a 15th pick but so was Giannis and Kawhi. Chuma was the 16th pick but so was Vucevic. There is talent to be had even if it is really hard to predict.

Also we don't even know where the pick is gonna land, anything can happen. WCJ, sure, obviously some people are higher on him than others (I want to see him vs Bamba compete to start) but I'm not sure what sort of picks you're expecting for Vuc because most teams who would want Vuc are teams that are already contending, and the Bulls are not that.

In fact, the picks are looking better than what Houston got from Harden currently since the Bulls are still a young team and the Bulls are currently in the 10th spot. It may end up being 15-20 but still..

To me, Cole and Chuma are role players. That is what you can hope for in the 15-20 range. A lot of my hate for this deal is that I was VERY anti WCJ pre-draft and I still feel that way. He barely plays, and when he does, he sulks. Clifford is going to kill him or quit :lol:


This was as good a return as you could hope for with Vuc. Alternatively, maybe dream scenario was squeezing 3 frp’s from a contender...but then they’re crap picks. The decision for me was “are we better without him- knowing there are limits on what you get for a 30 yr old”. Our tank was just fine without AG and Evan. We could have rested Vuc a bit to be sure... Nobody who pushed for a Vuc trade should be whining. This is everything the “buddy ball” “addition by subtraction” “centers are outdated” “WeHam plays golf all day and don’t have cell phones” crybabies wanted. Let’s just see how it shakes out. I’m looking forward now, I suggest we all do the same.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#371 » by fklt » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:33 pm

can't argue with the return tbh, this is what you'd get if you trade a player on vuc's level. brooklyn gave 1 more pick for MVP-level harden, and those picks probably will be worse as well. but that is exactly why you don't give away star players unless you're forced to.

when was the last time a blockbuster trade actually benefitted the team that's cashing out? just think. only rare examples you can find are the cases when the "star" in question was just about to fall off a cliff. vuc's in his prime; he's gonna stay there for at least half a decade, considering his playing style. you give a dollar; you'll get pennies back. that's always the game, and that's why nobody's stupid enough to do this kinda **** unforced.

more I think about it, more I get angry tbh. after preaching one thing for 4 years, refusing to retool in any shape or form, refusing to take advantage of countless opportunities in the name of continuity, culture, competitiveness, they basically turned around and said "lol just kidding!". which means the bastards had no idea what they were doing in the first place, they were just bull****ting their way all throughout. btw, don't ever buy into the absurd notion that they were just maximizing value before cashing out. if they did the exact same thing 3 years ago, the results were going to be more or less the same. maybe 1 less late pick here for vuc, maybe 1 more pick there for fournier. this was just them wasting half a decade of all of our times before they get fired, nothing more. they're just that pathetically, miserably incompetent.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#372 » by neuraldarwinism » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:38 pm

i dont know.

i'm semi-surprised we got as much as we did for vuc. all those swap vuc for a top 5 pick trades this offseason seemed wildly unrealistic. would a team picking in the top 10 trade their pick(s) for him this year? idk, doubt it. 3 late lottery-early non-lottery picks or 2, salary dump, and a prospect seems close enough.

plus we get to move off a team designed around a lower priority position whose play style blocks alternative and frankly more enjoyable style of play.

really i have no expectations for this franchise though so anything short of catastrophe while moving our 8th seed core is a minor miracle to me.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#373 » by 3ddman23 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:06 am

Let's say Chicago stays at that 10 spot to close out the season and they jump to the top 4 and keep there pick, what do the protection look like in 2022? Or do we just not get a pick at all if it falls into the top 4 for Chicago?
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#374 » by basketballRob » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:13 am

3ddman23 wrote:Let's say Chicago stays at that 10 spot to close out the season can they jump to the top 4 and keep there pick, what do the protection look like in 2022? Or do we just not get a pick at all if it falls into the top 4 for Chicago?
edit: That's a good question. If they fall into the bottom 8, they'd have like a 30% chance of a top 4. Not sure if we just lose it then.

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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#375 » by D12VCMagic » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:16 am

thelead wrote:
SOUL wrote:
thelead wrote:To me, Cole and Chuma are role players. That is what you can hope for in the 15-20 range. A lot of my hate for this deal is that I was VERY anti WCJ pre-draft and I still feel that way. He barely plays, and when he does, he sulks. Clifford is going to kill him or quit :lol:


Yeah but the thing is you can draft busts or stars at any draft spot and those are two MVPs/MVP caliber players and a 2x all-star that were drafted at those same spots. I will gladly take another pick there on top of ours, WITH the chance of the Bulls pick being even lower if things go our way.

I just don't think there is any for sure asset that was on the market. Yeah, it would've been amazing to get an SGA level prospect like the Paul George trade on top of picks, but that doesn't happen often.

That's kinda my point though. I would have rather them dump Evan/AG, and keep Vuc until they could at least get an SGA level prospect. I don't even need the extra picks then (and wouldn't expect it for Vuc). Hell, Langford and Nesmith (which we hoping we could get for AG) sounds better to me than two 15-20 picks and WCJ. But, hey, it is what it is. My frustration is compounded with the AG trade as well by bringing back another athlete that can't shoot in RJ. We traded for quantity of assets instead of quality IMO.


Nobody was ever going to give up an SGA level prospect for Vooch, especially as he gets older. Just because he is an All Star doesn’t mean he is an actual star and valued as one. Teams are only willing to give up top prospects for elite star players. Paul George was closer to that and he also nearly led Indiana to the Finals against the Heatles.

We were never going to get the combination of cap space, picks and youth you truly want to give up someone like Vooch but I’m actually glad the front office is going for the rebuild here.
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Re: Vucevic traded to Chicago 

Post#376 » by MagicMatic » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:37 am

Skybox wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:So those mad at the deal think Vuc wasn’t worth as much as people actually thought, or that this FO is incompetent? Pick one.




Agreed....this is what you wanted. Own it now- don’t second-guess the return.

I was against this, but two lightly protected firsts from a generally dysfunctional organization is pretty strong for our 30 year old All Star center. I also like that the picks are NOW and soon. Carter has sucked but he may find a groove...he hasn’t even been the low ceiling high floor guy he was projected to be...we’ll see. Far from a sure thing, but could be a fantastic summer if the Bulls fold up.

I don’t like it, but now I’m going to be hopeful.

PS...now Clifford HAS to go, least developmental coach in the league.


I think we won the trade simply because Chicago isn’t going to be a world beater and they won’t be terrible enough for the protections to matter. Getting rid of Aminu, landing a rookie contract C, and Otto Porter as a throw in to match salary is just icing.

The idea of this trade wasn’t to return production 1:1, anyone believing that was the goal isn’t paying attention. Orlando should be able to be bad enough, and with a youth movement, that “finding” players as they develop will at least be watchable. Orlando will end up with one of the decent players toward the top of the draft of Weltman doesn’t **** it up per usual.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#377 » by Gomagic44 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:09 am

We can HOPE again!
Skybox wrote:2 fun facts I was wrong in my assumptions about...

1. WCJ has been making 3’s this year (low volume but...)
2. OPJ is actually playing

Let’s see what we have. Perhaps OPJ does stick. Perhaps Harris regains his trade value for draft night as more than just an expiring $20m


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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#378 » by aussie_pride » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:54 am

I'm not a Magic fan but I really feel sorry for all those of you who like Vucevic. I thought he was one of those guys who you could build your franchise around due to the fact the he was unselfish, loyal and had many good years ahead of him. In my view teams worry too much about the future and not enough about the present. Remember, with draft picks you have no guarantee that they are going to better than Vucevic's current all-star calibre skillset. The other thing to take into account is that people get too presumptuous with the whole age thing. I get that Vucevic is 30 and the Magic want to cash in on him while his value as its highest but that is based on the assumption that Vucevic is not going to be playing at high level in his mid 30s. Do not get me wrong - advanced age is detrimental but only really for those players who rely on speed and athleticism. Vucevic's game does not really embody those two attributes as his game is more about proper shot selection, posting up and making correct basketball plays. Therefore, I could honestly see him playing at high level until his mid to late 30s. My view therefore is that this was a bad trade!
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#379 » by Xatticus » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:25 am

I'm ecstatic. This is a haul for Vucevic. More importantly, however, is that we can finally move on from our organizational malaise. You can't address your alcoholism until you admit that you are an alcoholic. We've finally admitted that what we were doing wasn't working and so I feel like the dark cloud hovering over this organization is gone.

WCJ is worth having a look at. He's had a rough season, but I'd have been happy to get him before the year started. He is pretty good at a lot of the things you have to get from your bigs. The issue is that his development seems to have stagnated and that he isn't showing much promise on acquiring some of the skills that you hoped he'd develop. He came out firing threes in the preseason, but they weren't falling and he switched that off. I think it's an aspect of his game that could still come along. I'm also not buying any notion that he is a four. He isn't mobile enough to play alongside another conventional five. He just isn't versatile enough defensively. Clifford will have him playing drop coverage and he should be fine in that role. He will rebound. He will set good screens. He has decent vision for a big. I look forward to watching him play.

The picks should hold decent value. I'm wondering if there is any compensation for either pick should they not convey. The Bulls are in the lottery at present. I think there is a decent chance they end there. There is only around a 12% chance at present that their pick will move into the top four, but it would be soul crushing if it did. LaVine's contract expires after next season and Vucevic isn't young. It would be rather easy for the Bulls to change course again and tank to the top of the draft in 2023. I'd like some protection against that incentive should things not work out for the Bulls, which seems like a real possibility. Their bench has really carried them this year. I don't know how long they can count on guys like Thad Young and Garrett Temple to carry them.

All things considered, I think we made out well. Was it worth signing that huge deal to parlay it into some value a couple years later? I don't know. It felt to me like we wasted a lot of time, but at least we got some value in return. If the goal is to tank, then we still have some work to do. We still have plenty of guys on this roster that are going to give us some quality minutes. I think dealing Ennis or rerouting Porter would've gone a long way towards ensuring that we weren't competitive for the remainder of the year.
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Re: Nikola Vučević and Al-Farouq Aminu traded to Chicago for Wendell Carter Jr and 2021/2023 1st Round Picks 

Post#380 » by D12VCMagic » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:29 am

aussie_pride wrote:I'm not a Magic fan but I really feel sorry for all those of you who like Vucevic. I thought he was one of those guys who you could build your franchise around due to the fact the he was unselfish, loyal and had many good years ahead of him. In my view teams worry too much about the future and not enough about the present. Remember, with draft picks you have no guarantee that they are going to better than Vucevic's current all-star calibre skillset. The other thing to take into account is that people get too presumptuous with the whole age thing. I get that Vucevic is 30 and the Magic want to cash in on him while his value as its highest but that is based on the assumption that Vucevic is not going to be playing at high level in his mid 30s. Do not get me wrong - advanced age is detrimental but only really for those players who rely on speed and athleticism. Vucevic's game does not really embody those two attributes as his game is more about proper shot selection, posting up and making correct basketball plays. Therefore, I could honestly see him playing at high level until his mid to late 30s. My view therefore is that this was a bad trade!


His All Star caliber skillset has brought the team zero success over the course of nine seasons. He is a good player no doubt, but he isn’t a franchise center piece. We’ve tried building around him for nearly a decade and it didn’t work. I think too many people are overvaluing him because he’s made the All Star team. I’m happy to get cap space, picks and start over instead of convincing ourselves we are close because Vooch can make the All Star team at a position that lacks elite talent in the league.

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