ImageImageImageImage

New Mock Draft

Moderators: Knightro, SOUL, Def Swami, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, UCF, ChosenSavior

User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 31,066
And1: 11,537
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#41 » by tiderulz » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:17 pm

Rainwater wrote:Isn't LBJ a wing player?

notice he didnt answer you
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 29,791
And1: 5,287
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#42 » by drsd » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:25 pm

tiderulz wrote:this. you can win with avg player at center, you cant with avg players at your guard/wing positions


Last starting Cs:
2020 - McGee
2019 - Ibaka
2018 - Pachulia
2017 - Pachulia
2016 - Thompson
2015 - Bogut
2014 - Splitter (or Duncan depending on perspective)
2013 - Bosh
2012 - Bosh


One thing looking at these lists is that many NBA champions haven't had a "real" Center starting major minutes.


..
Rainwater
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,900
And1: 2,303
Joined: Apr 02, 2017

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#43 » by Rainwater » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:33 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Alex Caruso
Talen Horton-Tucker
Pope
Rondo
JR Smith

2019- 20 Lakers guard rotation on championship roster.

You can win with every position being average or even below average as long as your superstars are good enough to carry.
It's easier to build roster around superstar wing like Durant or Kawhi or Lebron, but it doesn't change fact that likes of Lavine, Beal, star SGs or Chris Paul , Westbrook, Lillard, Wall ( in past) never achived anything as best players despite playing " more impacful" positions than bigs.

In context or Orlando, Mobley isn't best pick, but in terms of highest upside, it's no secret he is better than anybody you can draft if Green & Cade are gone.


Isn't LBJ a wing player?


Me and him went into heated debate about importance of role players. I called them disposable, he said they are very important.
My orginal point, during our fight was that superstars are only thing that matters when it comes to building team.

Lebron and Davis matter, others , imo, were movable peaces ,hence, they removed basically whole bench from one year to another.


I see. You are right, I concede that point. As long as you have 2 to 3 superstars, regardless of position, and you complement those superstars well with role players you should contend. I just feel like it's easier to do that wing players with how the game is played today.

But I would argue how often have you seen a team with big men as their only star or stars with no star wing win a championship? You could say Dirk and Dream or Duncan's first chip with Robinson. But it is just far easier to do it with wings.
Rainwater
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,900
And1: 2,303
Joined: Apr 02, 2017

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#44 » by Rainwater » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:49 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Rainwater wrote:Isn't LBJ a wing player?

notice he didnt answer you


I think you are both right though. I think he is saying if you surround multiple superstars, regardless of position, with good roles you should be able to contend. But I do agree with your point that it's easier with wing players/guards.
User avatar
MagicMatic
Head Coach
Posts: 7,441
And1: 7,435
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#45 » by MagicMatic » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:49 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Alex Caruso
Talen Horton-Tucker
Pope
Rondo
JR Smith

2019- 20 Lakers guard rotation on championship roster.

You can win with every position being average or even below average as long as your superstars are good enough to carry.
It's easier to build roster around superstar wing like Durant or Kawhi or Lebron, but it doesn't change fact that likes of Lavine, Beal, star SGs or Chris Paul , Westbrook, Lillard, Wall ( in past) never achived anything as best players despite playing " more impacful" positions than bigs.

In context or Orlando, Mobley isn't best pick, but in terms of highest upside, it's no secret he is better than anybody you can draft if Green & Cade are gone.


Isn't LBJ a wing player?


Me and him went into heated debate about importance of role players. I called them disposable, he said they are very important.
My orginal point, during our fight was that superstars are only thing that matters when it comes to building team.

Lebron and Davis matter, others , imo, were movable peaces ,hence, they removed basically whole bench from one year to another.


Lebron could win with a half decent team in his prime. AD couldn’t.

Even Jokic, who is easily the best skilled big in the game, has the perfect complimentary roster. He’s still completely reliant on MPJ’s growth as a wing and Murray’s production. I also view him as completely one-off kind of player that nobody should expect to generate the same level of playmaking ability as a big.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that the rest of those rosters aren’t disposable. However, if you had to choose between a “superstar” that was a big and one that was a playmaker, it wouldn’t be a contest if you didn’t have the latter. Orlando doesn’t, so I’m not really sure why this is even a question.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 31,066
And1: 11,537
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#46 » by tiderulz » Mon Jun 7, 2021 6:01 pm

Rainwater wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Rainwater wrote:Isn't LBJ a wing player?

notice he didnt answer you


I think you are both right though. I think he is saying if you surround multiple superstars, regardless of position, with good roles you should be able to contend. But I do agree with your point that it's easier with wing players/guards.

just look at the past 20 years of champions and who won with avg centers
Rainwater
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,900
And1: 2,303
Joined: Apr 02, 2017

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#47 » by Rainwater » Mon Jun 7, 2021 6:09 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
tiderulz wrote:notice he didnt answer you


I think you are both right though. I think he is saying if you surround multiple superstars, regardless of position, with good roles you should be able to contend. But I do agree with your point that it's easier with wing players/guards.

just look at the past 20 years of champions and who won with avg centers


I agree with you it's far easier to win with superstars as your guards.
GelbeWand09
Senior
Posts: 712
And1: 959
Joined: Apr 17, 2018
       

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#48 » by GelbeWand09 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 6:20 pm

drsd wrote:
tiderulz wrote:this. you can win with avg player at center, you cant with avg players at your guard/wing positions


Last starting Cs:
2020 - McGee
2019 - Ibaka
2018 - Pachulia
2017 - Pachulia
2016 - Thompson
2015 - Bogut
2014 - Splitter (or Duncan depending on perspective)
2013 - Bosh
2012 - Bosh


One thing looking at these lists is that many NBA champions haven't had a "real" Center starting major minutes.


..


Yea for sure but you can argue that in in AD's case it makes not much difference. A bit like Duncan in the past.

For me not guards/wings dominate the leaque. 2 way players & playmaking / pick n roll 3 level scorer do. Guys like Beal or Lavine are as much of a waste as many star bigs in todays game. Reason i have Suggs over Green. I would still draft Green over Mobley & hope he develops his playmaking like Booker did but i woudnt be surprised at all if Mobley becomes the more impactful player in the end.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 31,066
And1: 11,537
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#49 » by tiderulz » Mon Jun 7, 2021 6:41 pm

Rainwater wrote:I see. You are right, I concede that point. As long as you have 2 to 3 superstars, regardless of position, and you complement those superstars well with role players you should contend. I just feel like it's easier to do that wing players with how the game is played today.

But I would argue how often have you seen a team with big men as their only star or stars with no star wing win a championship? You could say Dirk and Dream or Duncan's first chip with Robinson. But it is just far easier to do it with wings.

but not just any role player. you replace Marcus Morris with someone else, Clips dont win yesterday.

LA has 2 of the supposed best wing defenders in the league. but they needed Morris, Rondo, Kennard, Mann to be there. Meanwhile Luka, arguably top 5-7 player in the league, his role players didnt give him much.

LA Lakers still had LBJ and Davis, but the team didnt seem or feel as dominant as they did last year. Yes, they had injuries, but you could tell they werent as good. Maybe they missed Danny Green and Rondo? we will never know.

yes, you need super players to win, no one is saying that you dont. But you also need the "right" role players that fit with the team, not just any warm body. you dont just swap out key role players for just anyone and think you will do just as good.
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 29,791
And1: 5,287
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#50 » by drsd » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:06 pm

tiderulz wrote:...
but not just any role player. you replace Marcus Morris with someone else, Clips dont win yesterday. ....

LA Lakers still had LBJ and Davis, but the team didnt seem or feel as dominant as they did last year. Yes, they had injuries, but you could tell they werent as good. Maybe they missed Danny Green and Rondo? we will never know.

yes, you need super players to win, no one is saying that you dont. But you also need the "right" role players that fit with the team, not just any warm body. you dont just swap out key role players for just anyone and think you will do just as good.


Green is this generation's Steve Kerr / Robert Horry. Perhaps Morris is "next" in this critical supporting role.

Add Joe Harris and Joe Ingles, there is a lot to be exited about with in these non-star players.


..
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 14,337
And1: 11,742
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#51 » by pepe1991 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:22 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Rainwater wrote:I see. You are right, I concede that point. As long as you have 2 to 3 superstars, regardless of position, and you complement those superstars well with role players you should contend. I just feel like it's easier to do that wing players with how the game is played today.

But I would argue how often have you seen a team with big men as their only star or stars with no star wing win a championship? You could say Dirk and Dream or Duncan's first chip with Robinson. But it is just far easier to do it with wings.

but not just any role player. you replace Marcus Morris with someone else, Clips dont win yesterday.

LA has 2 of the supposed best wing defenders in the league. but they needed Morris, Rondo, Kennard, Mann to be there. Meanwhile Luka, arguably top 5-7 player in the league, his role players didnt give him much.

LA Lakers still had LBJ and Davis, but the team didnt seem or feel as dominant as they did last year. Yes, they had injuries, but you could tell they werent as good. Maybe they missed Danny Green and Rondo? we will never know.

yes, you need super players to win, no one is saying that you dont. But you also need the "right" role players that fit with the team, not just any warm body. you dont just swap out key role players for just anyone and think you will do just as good.


Those guys are disposable and easly replacable supporting cast. Hence, that's why they are being refered to as "supporting cast".

Swing between Lakers championship roster and Lakers first round exit are not McGee and Rondo. I don't even know where McGee play now , Rondo shoots like 32% FG in playoffs this year. Swing is fact that Athony Davis got hurt this year, and last year he was feasting .

If you have stars in place, finding supporting around them is very easy. For start, most of vets will be attracted to play for championship, second, after tankers dump off vets , you can clear them from vaiwers.

On other side of a spectrum, you see many role players getting overpyed by less talented team just to instantly regret decisions. From Harrison Barnes post Warriors to Lue Williams , Harrell, Ezili , Norris Cole , Mario Chalmers and countless others.

Easly the worst decision that always cripples nba contenders is tying crazy money into role players. Cavs pretty much ruined their championship dreams with contract exstension of Tristan Thompson and JR Smith.
In one moment, TT, JR and George Hill were making like $50M. Needless to say, it was impossible to keep building contender around Lebron with such an awful contract situation.

Who is nets supporting cast?
Griffin- cleared from vaiwers
Mike James- castoff from terrible Suns roster in past
Tyler Johnson- guy who nobody in nba wanted
Nicolas Claxston -second round pick
Bowen- second round pick
TLC ( career depth guy)

and sure they have Joe Harris but rest of their team is made of castoffs and nobodies. But doesn't matter. Harden, Durant, Irving are there. Deandre JOrdan has name value,but his playing value is zero. For few years.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
The Effect
Magic Forum Mock Draft Co-Champ
Posts: 3,561
And1: 1,403
Joined: Jul 09, 2004

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#52 » by The Effect » Mon Jun 7, 2021 8:55 pm

nicnac215 wrote:
The Effect wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
This league is run by playmakers. Get a playmaker with a top 5 pick.


WHile true, its not that simple

Lets say that you have a time machine and go forward and see that these guys reach their top potential and they end up mimicking the 2012 Draft
Mobley = AD
Green = Beal
Suggs = Dame

Who do you take?
The cold blooded leader
The elite 3 level scorer
the best PF in the NBA

In this scenario I’m asking myself firstly why is Suggs who is an avg at best 3pt shooter compared to Dame. Secondly if those comparisons were to come true who would I want paired most with Isaac.... To me that is Green, then Mobley, then Suggs. Mobley is growing on me a lot, and I am convinced it is worth it to trade a lot of future assets to get Mobley if our pick goes 1 or 2, and Chi goes to us. #8-10+2023 Chi 1st, 2025 Den 1st, 2022 Orl 1st top 5 protected, 2024 Orlando 1st top 3 protected, and one of Bamba or WCJ.


Its more about his size, playing style, leadership and being clutch, not just 3pt shooting
Plus it was more of a hypothetical.
Skin
RealGM
Posts: 16,214
And1: 7,696
Joined: Jul 03, 2009
   

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#53 » by Skin » Mon Jun 7, 2021 10:02 pm

Whoever thinks Mobley is a superstar, tell me your NBA comp for him.
Markelle Fultz, Jalen Green, Chuma Okeke, Jonathan Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr.
Cole Anthony, RJ Hampton, Corey Kispert, Mo Bamba. LET'S GO!
User avatar
RookieStar
RealGM
Posts: 11,637
And1: 2,571
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#54 » by RookieStar » Mon Jun 7, 2021 10:43 pm

Rainwater wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
I think the the majority of people would say take the BPA and that should always be the case. If Mobley is that guy you better take him. However, in today's league you need somebody who is a creator and could score on the perimeter and the magic have struggled finding since T-Mac. And even if you you have that big you still will need that guy on perimeter. Be it Joker with Murray and MPJ or Embiid with Simmons and Harris (to a lesser extent). Yes, draft Mobley he definitely the second best player in the draft but for the sake of me please pair him up with a good perimeter player.


I agree we have struggled because we didnt havr a playmaker but I disagree that Tmac was our last playmaker. Are the new generation of magic fans forgetting Turkey-glue? Sure he might have been overshadowed by the stardom of D12 or the scoring prowess of Ra$$$hard but the guy could create moresp than our pg at that time.

So yeah, we were more succesful when we had a very good to elite playmaker and whatever position may that be.. we take that guy.


Lol, I have been around since the Shaq and Penny days. I always thought guys like Nelson and Hedo over played their actual abilities and were kinda a fluke hence why that team didn't enjoy more success. They only played at that level for a season or two. The team never had a consistent scoring threat since T-Mac.


Naaah. Turk was the real "point-forward" A 6'10 dude that has ball-handling abilities, can make the perimeter/3 pt shot as well as drive and post you up if you were smaller than him. Also, with him directing plays, it enabled Jameer to excel what he is good at...scoring rather than running the team. But yeah, he wasn't as prolific at scoring compared to Tmac ( who was???) lol
Rainwater
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,900
And1: 2,303
Joined: Apr 02, 2017

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#55 » by Rainwater » Mon Jun 7, 2021 11:41 pm

RookieStar wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
I agree we have struggled because we didnt havr a playmaker but I disagree that Tmac was our last playmaker. Are the new generation of magic fans forgetting Turkey-glue? Sure he might have been overshadowed by the stardom of D12 or the scoring prowess of Ra$$$hard but the guy could create moresp than our pg at that time.

So yeah, we were more succesful when we had a very good to elite playmaker and whatever position may that be.. we take that guy.


Lol, I have been around since the Shaq and Penny days. I always thought guys like Nelson and Hedo over played their actual abilities and were kinda a fluke hence why that team didn't enjoy more success. They only played at that level for a season or two. The team never had a consistent scoring threat since T-Mac.


Naaah. Turk was the real "point-forward" A 6'10 dude that has ball-handling abilities, can make the perimeter/3 pt shot as well as drive and post you up if you were smaller than him. Also, with him directing plays, it enabled Jameer to excel what he is good at...scoring rather than running the team. But yeah, he wasn't as prolific at scoring compared to Tmac ( who was???) lol


I'm not comparing talent wise but just comparing consistence. Obviously, T-Mac is better. But those 1 or 2 years from Hedo were such a fluke it is not even worth mentioning in my opinion. He had never done anything like that prior to those two years and he never did nothing like that after.

To me that whole championship run was a clearcut example of all the stars aligning in the right way because that was not going to happen again. Everybody played above their heads that season. You were never going to get the same consistent level of production going forward from anybody not named Dwight and maybe Lewis.
User avatar
RookieStar
RealGM
Posts: 11,637
And1: 2,571
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#56 » by RookieStar » Mon Jun 7, 2021 11:45 pm

Rainwater wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
Lol, I have been around since the Shaq and Penny days. I always thought guys like Nelson and Hedo over played their actual abilities and were kinda a fluke hence why that team didn't enjoy more success. They only played at that level for a season or two. The team never had a consistent scoring threat since T-Mac.


Naaah. Turk was the real "point-forward" A 6'10 dude that has ball-handling abilities, can make the perimeter/3 pt shot as well as drive and post you up if you were smaller than him. Also, with him directing plays, it enabled Jameer to excel what he is good at...scoring rather than running the team. But yeah, he wasn't as prolific at scoring compared to Tmac ( who was???) lol


I'm not comparing talent wise but just comparing consistence. Obviously, T-Mac is better. But those 1 or 2 years from Hedo were such a fluke it is not even worth mentioning in my opinion. He had never done anything like that prior to those two years and he never did nothing like that after.


He was already showng shades of that talent in SAC. I think thats why we threw the MLE at him? But I think we got peak Hedo. When he went to TOR and the 2nd stinit with us, his level was already going down. Plus he really got out of shape. IT happens. Not all players are like MJ LBJ or Kobe that has a longer peak.
Rainwater
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,900
And1: 2,303
Joined: Apr 02, 2017

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#57 » by Rainwater » Mon Jun 7, 2021 11:54 pm

RookieStar wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
Naaah. Turk was the real "point-forward" A 6'10 dude that has ball-handling abilities, can make the perimeter/3 pt shot as well as drive and post you up if you were smaller than him. Also, with him directing plays, it enabled Jameer to excel what he is good at...scoring rather than running the team. But yeah, he wasn't as prolific at scoring compared to Tmac ( who was???) lol


I'm not comparing talent wise but just comparing consistence. Obviously, T-Mac is better. But those 1 or 2 years from Hedo were such a fluke it is not even worth mentioning in my opinion. He had never done anything like that prior to those two years and he never did nothing like that after.


He was already showng shades of that talent in SAC. I think thats why we threw the MLE at him? But I think we got peak Hedo. When he went to TOR and the 2nd stinit with us, his level was already going down. Plus he really got out of shape. IT happens. Not all players are like MJ LBJ or Kobe that has a longer peak.


It literally was one or two seasons then he went back to normal Hedo. He was a always a good player, a great 6th man, but what happened those two seasons was an anomaly.
BlueBlazer
Sophomore
Posts: 104
And1: 34
Joined: Feb 07, 2019
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#58 » by BlueBlazer » Tue Jun 8, 2021 12:54 am

The Effect wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
The Effect wrote:
Ignore the current roster, no one on the team currently is a superstar and can be replaced.

If we were basing it on whats currently on the roster (which isnt anything we should be doing with current roster), id say we're more set in the backcourt than at PF

those 2 position are more "set" than PF


This league is run by playmakers. Get a playmaker with a top 5 pick.


WHile true, its not that simple

Lets say that you have a time machine and go forward and see that these guys reach their top potential and they end up mimicking the 2012 Draft
Mobley = AD
Green = Beal
Suggs = Dame

Who do you take?
The cold blooded leader
The elite 3 level scorer
the best PF in the NBA

I think Dame is the clear choice there imo
“I thought our Director of Scouting was just another name for a tape measure.” - StanVanGandhi
User avatar
RookieStar
RealGM
Posts: 11,637
And1: 2,571
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#59 » by RookieStar » Tue Jun 8, 2021 3:35 am

So... who is the new flavor of the week for us?
User avatar
thelead
RealGM
Posts: 27,258
And1: 15,090
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
 

Re: New Mock Draft 

Post#60 » by thelead » Tue Jun 8, 2021 3:52 am

Giannis vs KD is proving, yet again, that elite off the dribble shooting/scoring is king. Mobley cannot be the pick. Mobley is who you draft when you already have Luka or Booker (and the future Luka and Booker are off the table).
Image

Return to Orlando Magic