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Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0

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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#481 » by pepe1991 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:20 am

SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:Isaac actually played great defense on SIakam. I remember doing a post about it where Siakam did a lot of damage on whoever he was switched on but struggled against Isaac. Kawhi, well, he's a star.. takes an entire team to shut down stars and even then you just want them to shoot a lot to get a lot of points usually.


Image

Takes whole team, but individual defense of Gordon and Isaac did nothing to prevent Siakam and Kawhi from averaging 50 ppg from wing spots on some sky high 65% TS.
In mean time, Isaac flat out was usless on offense. 6,6 ppg on 27,5% FG.
Gordon did, by stats better, but he was always left open by scheme of Raptors defense.


Yeah but this stat isn't showing 1 on 1 defense. I went play by play of the games with Siakam vs Isaac and where he scored.. and like I said he didn't fare that well against Isaac if we're talking about straight up individual defense. But that's rare throughout a game now that it's just a straight up defensive matchup with 2 players with no switching or anything else. Siakam either would score after working really hard vs Isaac or just miss, compared to him getting switched on by anybody else.

So in theory, if we had more great defenders throughout the lineup it would've been harder for those guys to have big series, but yes, even having 1 or 2 great defenders doesn't mean much in the long run if the team defense isn't good.

Offense has nothing to do with what we're talking about either. I'm just saying if you're framing it as bad individual defense as in Isaac should have and could have done more, he really disrupted Siakam. As far as slowing him down on a whole as a team, we did a bad job. Personally I don't care how someone is slowed down (bad shooting night, bad defense, good defense, etc) as long as we get the win.


I'm not framing post to paint Isaac or Gordon as bad defenders. I'm pointing out how it looks when elite offensive wings meet elite defensive wings especially when "elite defense" also offers little to nothing on offense .
It's one way road.

My orginal point was that Okeke/Isaac /Wagner combination of two, at wings, simply does not provide enough high quality offense to be taken in considirations as serious future pairing if team's goal is to be anything more than glorified 42 wins team.
NBA wings are some of most elite nba players and most elite nba teams provide their offense from that positions. There is no scenario where Okeke, Wagner or Isaac are guys who are your 20+ ppg scorers on above average efficiency. it's not their game. Not to mention all 3 are probably PFs in nba and only good at PF spot. But hey, as long as Hammond is there i don't expect any logical roster structure. There is 14 years of trackrecord to prove it.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#482 » by yoyojw17 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:18 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Image

Takes whole team, but individual defense of Gordon and Isaac did nothing to prevent Siakam and Kawhi from averaging 50 ppg from wing spots on some sky high 65% TS.
In mean time, Isaac flat out was usless on offense. 6,6 ppg on 27,5% FG.
Gordon did, by stats better, but he was always left open by scheme of Raptors defense.


Yeah but this stat isn't showing 1 on 1 defense. I went play by play of the games with Siakam vs Isaac and where he scored.. and like I said he didn't fare that well against Isaac if we're talking about straight up individual defense. But that's rare throughout a game now that it's just a straight up defensive matchup with 2 players with no switching or anything else. Siakam either would score after working really hard vs Isaac or just miss, compared to him getting switched on by anybody else.

So in theory, if we had more great defenders throughout the lineup it would've been harder for those guys to have big series, but yes, even having 1 or 2 great defenders doesn't mean much in the long run if the team defense isn't good.

Offense has nothing to do with what we're talking about either. I'm just saying if you're framing it as bad individual defense as in Isaac should have and could have done more, he really disrupted Siakam. As far as slowing him down on a whole as a team, we did a bad job. Personally I don't care how someone is slowed down (bad shooting night, bad defense, good defense, etc) as long as we get the win.


I'm not framing post to paint Isaac or Gordon as bad defenders. I'm pointing out how it looks when elite offensive wings meet elite defensive wings especially when "elite defense" also offers little to nothing on offense .
It's one way road.

My orginal point was that Okeke/Isaac /Wagner combination of two, at wings, simply does not provide enough high quality offense to be taken in considirations as serious future pairing if team's goal is to be anything more than glorified 42 wins team.
NBA wings are some of most elite nba players and most elite nba teams provide their offense from that positions. There is no scenario where Okeke, Wagner or Isaac are guys who are your 20+ ppg scorers on above average efficiency. it's not their game. Not to mention all 3 are probably PFs in nba and only good at PF spot. But hey, as long as Hammond is there i don't expect any logical roster structure. There is 14 years of trackrecord to prove it.


So do we ignore the 3-6 year age and experience disparity, team make up, did i mention Experience between the pairs....

Yes... there were many flaws in our team especially that year and there were many pegs that were being shoved in the wrong holes.... but i'm not gonna put a nail in the coffin for okeke and isaac combination because of 2 year old stats from 5 game series against a team that ended up the NBA champions.

The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory. But his worst nemesis ... the injury bug came on in to ruin the party again... and again. When he returned in the bubble...he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more. And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before. He was aggressive and poised. We'll see which Isaac comes back... and the mere fact that he was given the contract and a cornerstone position, i will believe that WeHam believes in him and what is still yet to come, same goes for Fultz.

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery. Chuma did his best to step in on a team depleted by injuries and trades.... and at times many of us saw once again the flashes of what he brings to the table. Coming into a season with a better knowledge of what your role will be and a year under your belt will make a world of a difference.

needless to say... downplaying the potential of these two based on inconsequential factors is just not fair to them. let the season start at least and evaluate the time they show on the court together before making such definitive remarks.

do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season. I personally don't believe any given player will be given keys more than the others. I think things will be spread more evenly... with different players highlighting on different nights. And maybe someone will emerge as an Alpha. :-)
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#483 » by Sammyzc+1 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:47 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Yeah but this stat isn't showing 1 on 1 defense. I went play by play of the games with Siakam vs Isaac and where he scored.. and like I said he didn't fare that well against Isaac if we're talking about straight up individual defense. But that's rare throughout a game now that it's just a straight up defensive matchup with 2 players with no switching or anything else. Siakam either would score after working really hard vs Isaac or just miss, compared to him getting switched on by anybody else.

So in theory, if we had more great defenders throughout the lineup it would've been harder for those guys to have big series, but yes, even having 1 or 2 great defenders doesn't mean much in the long run if the team defense isn't good.

Offense has nothing to do with what we're talking about either. I'm just saying if you're framing it as bad individual defense as in Isaac should have and could have done more, he really disrupted Siakam. As far as slowing him down on a whole as a team, we did a bad job. Personally I don't care how someone is slowed down (bad shooting night, bad defense, good defense, etc) as long as we get the win.


I'm not framing post to paint Isaac or Gordon as bad defenders. I'm pointing out how it looks when elite offensive wings meet elite defensive wings especially when "elite defense" also offers little to nothing on offense .
It's one way road.

My orginal point was that Okeke/Isaac /Wagner combination of two, at wings, simply does not provide enough high quality offense to be taken in considirations as serious future pairing if team's goal is to be anything more than glorified 42 wins team.
NBA wings are some of most elite nba players and most elite nba teams provide their offense from that positions. There is no scenario where Okeke, Wagner or Isaac are guys who are your 20+ ppg scorers on above average efficiency. it's not their game. Not to mention all 3 are probably PFs in nba and only good at PF spot. But hey, as long as Hammond is there i don't expect any logical roster structure. There is 14 years of trackrecord to prove it.


So do we ignore the 3-6 year age and experience disparity, team make up, did i mention Experience between the pairs....

Yes... there were many flaws in our team especially that year and there were many pegs that were being shoved in the wrong holes.... but i'm not gonna put a nail in the coffin for okeke and isaac combination because of 2 year old stats from 5 game series against a team that ended up the NBA champions.

The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory. But his worst nemesis ... the injury bug came on in to ruin the party again... and again. When he returned in the bubble...he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more. And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before. He was aggressive and poised. We'll see which Isaac comes back... and the mere fact that he was given the contract and a cornerstone position, i will believe that WeHam believes in him and what is still yet to come, same goes for Fultz.

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery. Chuma did his best to step in on a team depleted by injuries and trades.... and at times many of us saw once again the flashes of what he brings to the table. Coming into a season with a better knowledge of what your role will be and a year under your belt will make a world of a difference.

needless to say... downplaying the potential of these two based on inconsequential factors is just not fair to them. let the season start at least and evaluate the time they show on the court together before making such definitive remarks.

do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season. I personally don't believe any given player will be given keys more than the others. I think things will be spread more evenly... with different players highlighting on different nights. And maybe someone will emerge as an Alpha. :-)

Well put. If the bodies hold up IF, these are two guys who have demonstrated on and off court maturity as well as basketball skillsets. It's idiotic to write them off individually, or from a team standpoint.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#484 » by bigdogdylan5 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:38 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Image

Takes whole team, but individual defense of Gordon and Isaac did nothing to prevent Siakam and Kawhi from averaging 50 ppg from wing spots on some sky high 65% TS.
In mean time, Isaac flat out was usless on offense. 6,6 ppg on 27,5% FG.
Gordon did, by stats better, but he was always left open by scheme of Raptors defense.


Yeah but this stat isn't showing 1 on 1 defense. I went play by play of the games with Siakam vs Isaac and where he scored.. and like I said he didn't fare that well against Isaac if we're talking about straight up individual defense. But that's rare throughout a game now that it's just a straight up defensive matchup with 2 players with no switching or anything else. Siakam either would score after working really hard vs Isaac or just miss, compared to him getting switched on by anybody else.

So in theory, if we had more great defenders throughout the lineup it would've been harder for those guys to have big series, but yes, even having 1 or 2 great defenders doesn't mean much in the long run if the team defense isn't good.

Offense has nothing to do with what we're talking about either. I'm just saying if you're framing it as bad individual defense as in Isaac should have and could have done more, he really disrupted Siakam. As far as slowing him down on a whole as a team, we did a bad job. Personally I don't care how someone is slowed down (bad shooting night, bad defense, good defense, etc) as long as we get the win.


I'm not framing post to paint Isaac or Gordon as bad defenders. I'm pointing out how it looks when elite offensive wings meet elite defensive wings especially when "elite defense" also offers little to nothing on offense .
It's one way road.

My orginal point was that Okeke/Isaac /Wagner combination of two, at wings, simply does not provide enough high quality offense to be taken in considirations as serious future pairing if team's goal is to be anything more than glorified 42 wins team.
NBA wings are some of most elite nba players and most elite nba teams provide their offense from that positions. There is no scenario where Okeke, Wagner or Isaac are guys who are your 20+ ppg scorers on above average efficiency. it's not their game. Not to mention all 3 are probably PFs in nba and only good at PF spot. But hey, as long as Hammond is there i don't expect any logical roster structure. There is 14 years of trackrecord to prove it.

I mean no reason we have to make the decision on future pairings now. They all are still so young and we don’t know what directions their careers are going to take. I know you don’t have any hope for Isaac but before his knee blew out he was starting to trend upwards offensively. This year will be critical because to me it’s going to be the best data point we will get to see the future structure of this team. Obviously Suggs is a part of it but does Fultz shooting start to get better or is it constant? To me that would tell me the shoulder is what it is and that will be his career. Does Isaac come back and stay healthy and does that offensive side continue to improve? Okeke I mean he looked really timid last year and when everyone was traded he really took advantage and looked good. Does he continue to improve? With regard to Wagner I really don’t know how you can make a sweeping conclusion. Who knows what he will be. Can we at least wait to see him in real NBA games lol? The other guards and centers are also in there to with extremely franchise critical data points we will get out of this season. The roster construction problem will be more of a factor next season when you can see the player trends and know what you have on the roster. I think that this teams top ceiling is higher than people think but the most likely result is we are right back in the top 5 and we could get that scoring wing you feel we need.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#485 » by bigdogdylan5 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:47 pm

I am glad the players are spending time together and doing some team building now because when the season starts I envision this year as the scene in dark knight when the joker breaks the stick and says only room for one person and they have to fight for it. That is the case with every position it’s is going to be put up or shut up if you want playing time. It might be an absolute disaster but hopefully at the end we can draw better conclusions
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#486 » by pepe1991 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:36 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Yeah but this stat isn't showing 1 on 1 defense. I went play by play of the games with Siakam vs Isaac and where he scored.. and like I said he didn't fare that well against Isaac if we're talking about straight up individual defense. But that's rare throughout a game now that it's just a straight up defensive matchup with 2 players with no switching or anything else. Siakam either would score after working really hard vs Isaac or just miss, compared to him getting switched on by anybody else.

So in theory, if we had more great defenders throughout the lineup it would've been harder for those guys to have big series, but yes, even having 1 or 2 great defenders doesn't mean much in the long run if the team defense isn't good.

Offense has nothing to do with what we're talking about either. I'm just saying if you're framing it as bad individual defense as in Isaac should have and could have done more, he really disrupted Siakam. As far as slowing him down on a whole as a team, we did a bad job. Personally I don't care how someone is slowed down (bad shooting night, bad defense, good defense, etc) as long as we get the win.


I'm not framing post to paint Isaac or Gordon as bad defenders. I'm pointing out how it looks when elite offensive wings meet elite defensive wings especially when "elite defense" also offers little to nothing on offense .
It's one way road.

My orginal point was that Okeke/Isaac /Wagner combination of two, at wings, simply does not provide enough high quality offense to be taken in considirations as serious future pairing if team's goal is to be anything more than glorified 42 wins team.
NBA wings are some of most elite nba players and most elite nba teams provide their offense from that positions. There is no scenario where Okeke, Wagner or Isaac are guys who are your 20+ ppg scorers on above average efficiency. it's not their game. Not to mention all 3 are probably PFs in nba and only good at PF spot. But hey, as long as Hammond is there i don't expect any logical roster structure. There is 14 years of trackrecord to prove it.


So do we ignore the 3-6 year age and experience disparity, team make up, did i mention Experience between the pairs....

Yes... there were many flaws in our team especially that year and there were many pegs that were being shoved in the wrong holes.... but i'm not gonna put a nail in the coffin for okeke and isaac combination because of 2 year old stats from 5 game series against a team that ended up the NBA champions.

The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory. But his worst nemesis ... the injury bug came on in to ruin the party again... and again. When he returned in the bubble...he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more. And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before. He was aggressive and poised. We'll see which Isaac comes back... and the mere fact that he was given the contract and a cornerstone position, i will believe that WeHam believes in him and what is still yet to come, same goes for Fultz.

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery. Chuma did his best to step in on a team depleted by injuries and trades.... and at times many of us saw once again the flashes of what he brings to the table. Coming into a season with a better knowledge of what your role will be and a year under your belt will make a world of a difference.

needless to say... downplaying the potential of these two based on inconsequential factors is just not fair to them. let the season start at least and evaluate the time they show on the court together before making such definitive remarks.

do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season. I personally don't believe any given player will be given keys more than the others. I think things will be spread more evenly... with different players highlighting on different nights. And maybe someone will emerge as an Alpha. :-)


The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory.

Before he blew up his knee for first time. That amazing streak lasted for 32 games.

he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more

He scored 16 points vs Nets and in second game he already torn his ACL after 14 min. Maybe some of you should start watching some actual high quality basketball to not drool over 16 points or sample size of one game?


And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before.

Again, you paint picture of him dominating bubble and after 20 games having unlucky injury. Reality: he played 1 game, where he scored 16 points, and torn ACL in second ( where he had 4 points ).

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery.

Rookie year, because he torn ACL and didn't recover on time to play actual rookie year and because he played 2 years at college. Guy is 23 years old sophmore. Luka Doncic for exaple, will be playing his 4th season this year, being 6 months younger than Chuma.
Jayson Tatum will be playing 5th year, being 5 months older than Chuma.
Okeke looked like playable rotation peace for 10 games, everything before and after was hot garbage, but when you are on pace to lose 20 games in a row, i understand why people were getting exited about 16 points scored by rookie during 46 points blowout ( literallly happend last year vs Utah)


do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season.

Dort and Bazley averaged 28 ppg combined, that does not make them good couple of great fits. It's nba, and especially on garbage team that Orlando will 100% be, somebody will put up some stats. That does not change fact that Orlando's wing positions are stuffed (again) with esencially incapable shooters, poor ballhandlers who struggle to put ball on the floor probably because they are too tall and simply poor fits next to each other.

There is very good reason why Orlando is projected to lose between 50 and 60 out of 82 games. Poor roster construction and lack of talent it's always most logical answer. Rookie coach won't help.

People who expect Isaac to come back and play like nothing happend really need grassp some reality of being out of basketball for esencially 2 years. For start, they could watch some post injury Porzingis,his struggles to look like same player ever since he torn his ACL will probably mirror what Isaac will look like.
Fultz only had one thing going for himself in nba, quick first step. Assuming injury took 15% of it away, i really don't get what are you guys getting exited about ? 26% three point shooter who now mabybe won't be able to attack guys off dribble? What a hell he will do ? Shoot contested mid range jumpers ? Great
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#487 » by yoyojw17 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:27 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I'm not framing post to paint Isaac or Gordon as bad defenders. I'm pointing out how it looks when elite offensive wings meet elite defensive wings especially when "elite defense" also offers little to nothing on offense .
It's one way road.

My orginal point was that Okeke/Isaac /Wagner combination of two, at wings, simply does not provide enough high quality offense to be taken in considirations as serious future pairing if team's goal is to be anything more than glorified 42 wins team.
NBA wings are some of most elite nba players and most elite nba teams provide their offense from that positions. There is no scenario where Okeke, Wagner or Isaac are guys who are your 20+ ppg scorers on above average efficiency. it's not their game. Not to mention all 3 are probably PFs in nba and only good at PF spot. But hey, as long as Hammond is there i don't expect any logical roster structure. There is 14 years of trackrecord to prove it.


So do we ignore the 3-6 year age and experience disparity, team make up, did i mention Experience between the pairs....

Yes... there were many flaws in our team especially that year and there were many pegs that were being shoved in the wrong holes.... but i'm not gonna put a nail in the coffin for okeke and isaac combination because of 2 year old stats from 5 game series against a team that ended up the NBA champions.

The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory. But his worst nemesis ... the injury bug came on in to ruin the party again... and again. When he returned in the bubble...he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more. And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before. He was aggressive and poised. We'll see which Isaac comes back... and the mere fact that he was given the contract and a cornerstone position, i will believe that WeHam believes in him and what is still yet to come, same goes for Fultz.

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery. Chuma did his best to step in on a team depleted by injuries and trades.... and at times many of us saw once again the flashes of what he brings to the table. Coming into a season with a better knowledge of what your role will be and a year under your belt will make a world of a difference.

needless to say... downplaying the potential of these two based on inconsequential factors is just not fair to them. let the season start at least and evaluate the time they show on the court together before making such definitive remarks.

do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season. I personally don't believe any given player will be given keys more than the others. I think things will be spread more evenly... with different players highlighting on different nights. And maybe someone will emerge as an Alpha. :-)


The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory.

Before he blew up his knee for first time. That amazing streak lasted for 32 games.

he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more

He scored 16 points vs Nets and in second game he already torn his ACL after 14 min. Maybe some of you should start watching some actual high quality basketball to not drool over 16 points or sample size of one game?


And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before.

Again, you paint picture of him dominating bubble and after 20 games having unlucky injury. Reality: he played 1 game, where he scored 16 points, and torn ACL in second ( where he had 4 points ).

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery.

Rookie year, because he torn ACL and didn't recover on time to play actual rookie year and because he played 2 years at college. Guy is 23 years old sophmore. Luka Doncic for exaple, will be playing his 4th season this year, being 6 months younger than Chuma.
Jayson Tatum will be playing 5th year, being 5 months older than Chuma.
Okeke looked like playable rotation peace for 10 games, everything before and after was hot garbage, but when you are on pace to lose 20 games in a row, i understand why people were getting exited about 16 points scored by rookie during 46 points blowout ( literallly happend last year vs Utah)


do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season.

Dort and Bazley averaged 28 ppg combined, that does not make them good couple of great fits. It's nba, and especially on garbage team that Orlando will 100% be, somebody will put up some stats. That does not change fact that Orlando's wing positions are stuffed (again) with esencially incapable shooters, poor ballhandlers who struggle to put ball on the floor probably because they are too tall and simply poor fits next to each other.

There is very good reason why Orlando is projected to lose between 50 and 60 out of 82 games. Poor roster construction and lack of talent it's always most logical answer. Rookie coach won't help.

People who expect Isaac to come back and play like nothing happend really need grassp some reality of being out of basketball for esencially 2 years. For start, they could watch some post injury Porzingis,his struggles to look like same player ever since he torn his ACL will probably mirror what Isaac will look like.
Fultz only had one thing going for himself in nba, quick first step. Assuming injury took 15% of it away, i really don't get what are you guys getting exited about ? 26% three point shooter who now mabybe won't be able to attack guys off dribble? What a hell he will do ? Shoot contested mid range jumpers ? Great

Got it... so..... Klay Thompson and Kahwi Leonard are all gonna be shells of themselves and they should be cut immediately

YES.... anyone with two eyes could have looked at Isaac and seen something different... a spark of confidence and assertiveness we NEVER really saw out of him. He was playing against NBA talent and his run got cut short because of said injury. I guess... "we didnt' get to see it... therefore he is still trash... because i say so"

I don't care about Okeke's age.... it was still his FIRST experience as an NBA player.... therefore... YES.... he is a rookie... and he showed positive signs and built confidence in many around here.

I said 30+ as in.... 30 is a possible minimum. Oh... and I also said that we weren't probably going to be a team with a set number 1 option and many players will have a chance to shine. That's what I would love .... All I care about are wins. one day one or two players would excel and others fit in and fill in the gaps.

The point of all of this is.... Why are you so harsh on the players without giving them a fair chance. I'm not over here professing that anyone is going to be the goat.... but they have the potential to be something special.... and that is what I'm going to hope for. If they attain it... great... if they don't ... on to the next one. But we won't know until they try.

But you and your so call depth of knowledge apparently can see the future? I'm hoping that you are a GM somewhere winning championships left and right with your knowledge. Just come on man.... why can't you give them a Chance before putting a nail in the coffin and coming on here s*** on everyone's joy. lol :-D

but for real doe... if you have a crystal ball... lemme know the next lotto numbers so I can retire early... and get season tickets to the Magic this season! :-D
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#488 » by pepe1991 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:03 am

Yes, Klay Thompson will be shell of former self. If you think 6'7 not so athletic wing who relied heavily on smart cuts and angles to cover guards won't have huge issues keeping up with guards now, where he was out of basketball for almost 3 years, i really don't know what to tell you.
Kawhi Leonard with Spurs and one with Clippers isn't even same person any more, injuries already slowed him down a lot and he has to be monitored and used for 50-60 games a season because his body can't hold up. Right before his first major injury, he only missed 18 out of 164 games , than, after injury, he is yet to play over 60 games a season.

You talk about Isaac's assertivness on offense based on one game.

I'm not harsh on players. I judge them based on what they show , given their usage, value of their skillset compared to rest of the league and age.
In Okeke's case, he wasn't even better than Iwundu for few months ( and right when i made thread about him, he menaged to looked like nba player for 10 games) than he reverted back to his old- delux Iwundu ways for rest of a season. Given he was 22 years old, had one whole calendar year off to work on his game, he was just rookie in thoery. History shows that "rookies" that skip actual rookie year normally play much better and closer to their ceiling than actual rookies, who skip from college to nba in matter of months.
Ben Simmons, Blake Griffin, David Robinson, Joel Embiid. You get memo and blueprint, they were all ROY winners or candidates because they had incredible amount of time to prepare for nba. Huge chunk of nba people think that rookies who didn't play rookie year due injury recovery, shouldn't even be in conversation for ROY (and i tend to agree )...


And no , i don't know future, but 6'11 Isaac can't put ball on the floor , can't attack people off dribble and has too slow of relise to play at full time SF.
Wagner can't drrible in traffic ( couldn't even at college) , struggles as spot up shooter, has slow relise and struggles to attack set defense. Everything points out he can't play SF.
We saw Okeke in rookie year, he can't attack off dribble nor he creates shots for himself. He drew no fouls whatsoever mostly because he couldn't even drive to paint. Only 15% of all his shots were inside 3 feet.
Hell, we even played him at PF because he was more comfortable there.

It's not hard to figure having overlapping skills, not having anybody who offers more versitality, better scoring, better shooting, draws more fouls, can split defense by attacking assigments off dribble would be more logical fit next to one of those guys. It's not rocket science, all best teams in nba have their best players and top 2 scoring options at wing. Davis, Giannis, Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, George , you name it . Most elite offense are generated from wing positions (especially playoffs, when guards lack of size comes to play ).

As for winning tickets numbers, i don't have that, but betting Magic to win less than 30 games is easiest win possible.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#489 » by Sammyzc+1 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:14 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
So do we ignore the 3-6 year age and experience disparity, team make up, did i mention Experience between the pairs....

Yes... there were many flaws in our team especially that year and there were many pegs that were being shoved in the wrong holes.... but i'm not gonna put a nail in the coffin for okeke and isaac combination because of 2 year old stats from 5 game series against a team that ended up the NBA champions.

The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory. But his worst nemesis ... the injury bug came on in to ruin the party again... and again. When he returned in the bubble...he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more. And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before. He was aggressive and poised. We'll see which Isaac comes back... and the mere fact that he was given the contract and a cornerstone position, i will believe that WeHam believes in him and what is still yet to come, same goes for Fultz.

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery. Chuma did his best to step in on a team depleted by injuries and trades.... and at times many of us saw once again the flashes of what he brings to the table. Coming into a season with a better knowledge of what your role will be and a year under your belt will make a world of a difference.

needless to say... downplaying the potential of these two based on inconsequential factors is just not fair to them. let the season start at least and evaluate the time they show on the court together before making such definitive remarks.

do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season. I personally don't believe any given player will be given keys more than the others. I think things will be spread more evenly... with different players highlighting on different nights. And maybe someone will emerge as an Alpha. :-)


The following season Isaac came back and started the season looking like a resurrected defender and a player that was on the right trajectory.

Before he blew up his knee for first time. That amazing streak lasted for 32 games.

he showed flashes in the bubble that left many of us salivating for more

He scored 16 points vs Nets and in second game he already torn his ACL after 14 min. Maybe some of you should start watching some actual high quality basketball to not drool over 16 points or sample size of one game?


And where did that come from.... a development of skill AND mainly confidence in himself.... the confidence he probably did not have playing 7th fiddle on the team before.

Again, you paint picture of him dominating bubble and after 20 games having unlucky injury. Reality: he played 1 game, where he scored 16 points, and torn ACL in second ( where he had 4 points ).

Okeke looked great at times in his ROOKIE season after a year of recovery.

Rookie year, because he torn ACL and didn't recover on time to play actual rookie year and because he played 2 years at college. Guy is 23 years old sophmore. Luka Doncic for exaple, will be playing his 4th season this year, being 6 months younger than Chuma.
Jayson Tatum will be playing 5th year, being 5 months older than Chuma.
Okeke looked like playable rotation peace for 10 games, everything before and after was hot garbage, but when you are on pace to lose 20 games in a row, i understand why people were getting exited about 16 points scored by rookie during 46 points blowout ( literallly happend last year vs Utah)


do i expect 20+ point average scoring from them .... nah. ... but i can see them averaging 30+ total this season with the TEAM game plan that i think will be implemented this season.

Dort and Bazley averaged 28 ppg combined, that does not make them good couple of great fits. It's nba, and especially on garbage team that Orlando will 100% be, somebody will put up some stats. That does not change fact that Orlando's wing positions are stuffed (again) with esencially incapable shooters, poor ballhandlers who struggle to put ball on the floor probably because they are too tall and simply poor fits next to each other.

There is very good reason why Orlando is projected to lose between 50 and 60 out of 82 games. Poor roster construction and lack of talent it's always most logical answer. Rookie coach won't help.

People who expect Isaac to come back and play like nothing happend really need grassp some reality of being out of basketball for esencially 2 years. For start, they could watch some post injury Porzingis,his struggles to look like same player ever since he torn his ACL will probably mirror what Isaac will look like.
Fultz only had one thing going for himself in nba, quick first step. Assuming injury took 15% of it away, i really don't get what are you guys getting exited about ? 26% three point shooter who now mabybe won't be able to attack guys off dribble? What a hell he will do ? Shoot contested mid range jumpers ? Great

Got it... so..... Klay Thompson and Kahwi Leonard are all gonna be shells of themselves and they should be cut immediately

YES.... anyone with two eyes could have looked at Isaac and seen something different... a spark of confidence and assertiveness we NEVER really saw out of him. He was playing against NBA talent and his run got cut short because of said injury. I guess... "we didnt' get to see it... therefore he is still trash... because i say so"

I don't care about Okeke's age.... it was still his FIRST experience as an NBA player.... therefore... YES.... he is a rookie... and he showed positive signs and built confidence in many around here.

I said 30+ as in.... 30 is a possible minimum. Oh... and I also said that we weren't probably going to be a team with a set number 1 option and many players will have a chance to shine. That's what I would love .... All I care about are wins. one day one or two players would excel and others fit in and fill in the gaps.

The point of all of this is.... Why are you so harsh on the players without giving them a fair chance. I'm not over here professing that anyone is going to be the goat.... but they have the potential to be something special.... and that is what I'm going to hope for. If they attain it... great... if they don't ... on to the next one. But we won't know until they try.

But you and your so call depth of knowledge apparently can see the future? I'm hoping that you are a GM somewhere winning championships left and right with your knowledge. Just come on man.... why can't you give them a Chance before putting a nail in the coffin and coming on here s*** on everyone's joy. lol :-D

but for real doe... if you have a crystal ball... lemme know the next lotto numbers so I can retire early... and get season tickets to the Magic this season! :-D
And as we all know, young players have 0 chance of developing and will be out of the league by their second year if their "numbers" do not meet whatever criteria, right?
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#490 » by pepe1991 » Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:41 pm

Sammyzc+1 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

Before he blew up his knee for first time. That amazing streak lasted for 32 games.


He scored 16 points vs Nets and in second game he already torn his ACL after 14 min. Maybe some of you should start watching some actual high quality basketball to not drool over 16 points or sample size of one game?



Again, you paint picture of him dominating bubble and after 20 games having unlucky injury. Reality: he played 1 game, where he scored 16 points, and torn ACL in second ( where he had 4 points ).


Rookie year, because he torn ACL and didn't recover on time to play actual rookie year and because he played 2 years at college. Guy is 23 years old sophmore. Luka Doncic for exaple, will be playing his 4th season this year, being 6 months younger than Chuma.
Jayson Tatum will be playing 5th year, being 5 months older than Chuma.
Okeke looked like playable rotation peace for 10 games, everything before and after was hot garbage, but when you are on pace to lose 20 games in a row, i understand why people were getting exited about 16 points scored by rookie during 46 points blowout ( literallly happend last year vs Utah)



Dort and Bazley averaged 28 ppg combined, that does not make them good couple of great fits. It's nba, and especially on garbage team that Orlando will 100% be, somebody will put up some stats. That does not change fact that Orlando's wing positions are stuffed (again) with esencially incapable shooters, poor ballhandlers who struggle to put ball on the floor probably because they are too tall and simply poor fits next to each other.

There is very good reason why Orlando is projected to lose between 50 and 60 out of 82 games. Poor roster construction and lack of talent it's always most logical answer. Rookie coach won't help.

People who expect Isaac to come back and play like nothing happend really need grassp some reality of being out of basketball for esencially 2 years. For start, they could watch some post injury Porzingis,his struggles to look like same player ever since he torn his ACL will probably mirror what Isaac will look like.
Fultz only had one thing going for himself in nba, quick first step. Assuming injury took 15% of it away, i really don't get what are you guys getting exited about ? 26% three point shooter who now mabybe won't be able to attack guys off dribble? What a hell he will do ? Shoot contested mid range jumpers ? Great

Got it... so..... Klay Thompson and Kahwi Leonard are all gonna be shells of themselves and they should be cut immediately

YES.... anyone with two eyes could have looked at Isaac and seen something different... a spark of confidence and assertiveness we NEVER really saw out of him. He was playing against NBA talent and his run got cut short because of said injury. I guess... "we didnt' get to see it... therefore he is still trash... because i say so"

I don't care about Okeke's age.... it was still his FIRST experience as an NBA player.... therefore... YES.... he is a rookie... and he showed positive signs and built confidence in many around here.

I said 30+ as in.... 30 is a possible minimum. Oh... and I also said that we weren't probably going to be a team with a set number 1 option and many players will have a chance to shine. That's what I would love .... All I care about are wins. one day one or two players would excel and others fit in and fill in the gaps.

The point of all of this is.... Why are you so harsh on the players without giving them a fair chance. I'm not over here professing that anyone is going to be the goat.... but they have the potential to be something special.... and that is what I'm going to hope for. If they attain it... great... if they don't ... on to the next one. But we won't know until they try.

But you and your so call depth of knowledge apparently can see the future? I'm hoping that you are a GM somewhere winning championships left and right with your knowledge. Just come on man.... why can't you give them a Chance before putting a nail in the coffin and coming on here s*** on everyone's joy. lol :-D

but for real doe... if you have a crystal ball... lemme know the next lotto numbers so I can retire early... and get season tickets to the Magic this season! :-D
And as we all know, young players have 0 chance of developing and will be out of the league by their second year if their "numbers" do not meet whatever criteria, right?


They do, within already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college and rookie year/rookie contract.
What young players never do, is wake up at age of 23, after playing same sport for 12-15 years and learn to shoot like Klay,dribble like Irving or post up like Hakeem over span of 2 months.

Case and point, every Elf Payton shooting debate 2014-2017 was people talking themselfs into notion he just needs to "work at jumpshot bit more" and everything will be fine. Here we are, 8 years later, guess who still didn't learn how to shoot? :D
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#491 » by drsd » Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:32 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Yes, Klay Thompson will be shell of former self. If you think 6'7 not so athletic wing who relied heavily on smart cuts and angles to cover guards won't have huge issues keeping up with guards now, where he was out of basketball for almost 3 years, i really don't know what to tell you.
Kawhi Leonard with Spurs and one with Clippers isn't ev
en same person any more, injuries already slowed him down a lot and he has to be monitored and used for 50-60 games a season because his body can't hold up. Right before his first major injury, he only missed 18 out of 164 games , than, after injury, he is yet to play over 60 games a season.

You talk about Isaac's assertivness on offense based on one game.

I'm not harsh on players. I judge them based on what they show , given their usage, value of their skillset compared to rest of the league and age.
In Okeke's case, he wasn't even better than Iwundu for few months ( and right when i made thread about him, he menaged to looked like nba player for 10 games) than he reverted back to his old- delux Iwundu ways for rest of a season. Given he was 22 years old, had one whole calendar year off to work on his game, he was just rookie in thoery. History shows that "rookies" that skip actual rookie year normally play much better and closer to their ceiling than actual rookies, who skip from college to nba in matter of months.
Ben Simmons, Blake Griffin, David Robinson, Joel Embiid. You get memo and blueprint, they were all ROY winners or candidates because they had incredible amount of time to prepare for nba. Huge chunk of nba people think that rookies who didn't play rookie year due injury recovery, shouldn't even be in conversation for ROY (and i tend to agree )...


And no , i don't know future, but 6'11 Isaac can't put ball on the floor , can't attack people off dribble and has too slow of relise to play at full time SF.
Wagner can't drrible in traffic ( couldn't even at college) , struggles as spot up shooter, has slow relise and struggles to attack set defense. Everything points out he can't play SF.
We saw Okeke in rookie year, he can't attack off dribble nor he creates shots for himself. He drew no fouls whatsoever mostly because he couldn't even drive to paint. Only 15% of all his shots were inside 3 feet.

Hell, we even played him at PF because he was more comfortable there.

It's not hard to figure having overlapping skills, not having anybody who offers more versitality, better scoring, better shooting, draws more fouls, can split defense by attacking assigments off dribble would be more logical fit next to one of those guys. It's not rocket science, all best teams in nba have their best players and top 2 scoring options at wing. Davis, Giannis, Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, George , you name it . Most elite offense are generated from wing positions (especially playoffs, when guards lack of size comes to play ).

As for winning tickets numbers, i don't have that, but betting Magic to win less than 30 games is easiest win possible.


And-1


When I look at the roster as constructed, I can only predict Two of the 2022/23 opening night starters: Suggs and Isaac. This team we will see on opening night will be unlike last season and next season will be unlike this season.

But it will be a fun season for scouting. Both individually and for assessing team fits.

As to your comment for 30 wins, I peg the team at 28 (too much "space and pace" to be a league-worst roster, if I have heard that somewhere). But in the end, there is still a lack of scoring that will damn the team in most games.

And the youth of this club must lead to huge amounts of TOs. Perhaps that is offset by good rebounding; I would not bet on that though.

I do look forward to the product that comes. And there is some small hope that 3-to-5 players are individually better than projected.
(( What will Hampton become is a major Q-mark for me )).

,..
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#492 » by yoyojw17 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:46 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Sammyzc+1 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:Got it... so..... Klay Thompson and Kahwi Leonard are all gonna be shells of themselves and they should be cut immediately

YES.... anyone with two eyes could have looked at Isaac and seen something different... a spark of confidence and assertiveness we NEVER really saw out of him. He was playing against NBA talent and his run got cut short because of said injury. I guess... "we didnt' get to see it... therefore he is still trash... because i say so"

I don't care about Okeke's age.... it was still his FIRST experience as an NBA player.... therefore... YES.... he is a rookie... and he showed positive signs and built confidence in many around here.

I said 30+ as in.... 30 is a possible minimum. Oh... and I also said that we weren't probably going to be a team with a set number 1 option and many players will have a chance to shine. That's what I would love .... All I care about are wins. one day one or two players would excel and others fit in and fill in the gaps.

The point of all of this is.... Why are you so harsh on the players without giving them a fair chance. I'm not over here professing that anyone is going to be the goat.... but they have the potential to be something special.... and that is what I'm going to hope for. If they attain it... great... if they don't ... on to the next one. But we won't know until they try.

But you and your so call depth of knowledge apparently can see the future? I'm hoping that you are a GM somewhere winning championships left and right with your knowledge. Just come on man.... why can't you give them a Chance before putting a nail in the coffin and coming on here s*** on everyone's joy. lol :-D

but for real doe... if you have a crystal ball... lemme know the next lotto numbers so I can retire early... and get season tickets to the Magic this season! :-D
And as we all know, young players have 0 chance of developing and will be out of the league by their second year if their "numbers" do not meet whatever criteria, right?


They do, within already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college and rookie year/rookie contract.
What young players never do, is wake up at age of 23, after playing same sport for 12-15 years and learn to shoot like Klay,dribble like Irving or post up like Hakeem over span of 2 months.

Case and point, every Elf Payton shooting debate 2014-2017 was people talking themselfs into notion he just needs to "work at jumpshot bit more" and everything will be fine. Here we are, 8 years later, guess who still didn't learn how to shoot? :D

LOL.... Elf is like your whipping boy. Come on man... we can't cherry-pick players that prove your point. Lol... players like Kawhi and Giannis evolved into superstars. Plus if it really was that easy "already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college" drafts should be pretty damn straightforward. but there are soooooo many variables and uncertainties. and that's also why we talk about potential and upside.

Yes... there is an exponential learning curve and natural affinity to things that we do in our youth.... but any of us can work on certain aspects of our crafts through experience, practice, and dedication. Whether it will translate to live games... we would have to wait and see... or it might only exist in empty gyms.

needless to say.... Okeke just finished his true rookie season. NBA game time is not the same as practicing for a year while recovering from an injury. but during the season... I saw many sparks of things I would love to see from him. And the same thing goes with Isaac. injuries have robbed him of EXPERIENCE time and have caused setbacks.

All i want is to give them a fair shake when they return. See how all of these young INDIVIDUALS add up to form a TEAM.

I still struggle to figure out/grasp what you really like about this team and why you are a fan.... hahaha
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#493 » by pepe1991 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:35 am

yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Sammyzc+1 wrote:And as we all know, young players have 0 chance of developing and will be out of the league by their second year if their "numbers" do not meet whatever criteria, right?


They do, within already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college and rookie year/rookie contract.
What young players never do, is wake up at age of 23, after playing same sport for 12-15 years and learn to shoot like Klay,dribble like Irving or post up like Hakeem over span of 2 months.

Case and point, every Elf Payton shooting debate 2014-2017 was people talking themselfs into notion he just needs to "work at jumpshot bit more" and everything will be fine. Here we are, 8 years later, guess who still didn't learn how to shoot? :D

LOL.... Elf is like your whipping boy. Come on man... we can't cherry-pick players that prove your point. Lol... players like Kawhi and Giannis evolved into superstars. Plus if it really was that easy "already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college" drafts should be pretty damn straightforward. but there are soooooo many variables and uncertainties. and that's also why we talk about potential and upside.

Yes... there is an exponential learning curve and natural affinity to things that we do in our youth.... but any of us can work on certain aspects of our crafts through experience, practice, and dedication. Whether it will translate to live games... we would have to wait and see... or it might only exist in empty gyms.

needless to say.... Okeke just finished his true rookie season. NBA game time is not the same as practicing for a year while recovering from an injury. but during the season... I saw many sparks of things I would love to see from him. And the same thing goes with Isaac. injuries have robbed him of EXPERIENCE time and have caused setbacks.

All i want is to give them a fair shake when they return. See how all of these young INDIVIDUALS add up to form a TEAM.

I still struggle to figure out/grasp what you really like about this team and why you are a fan.... hahaha


Elfrid Payton is definition of player who was drafted in lottery based on notion that he will develop skill he showed no signs of having. That's why i always use him as example of player who didn't learn basketball skill over times because , at least to me, it was clear he never will.
I mean, i can use MCW or MKG if that makes less personal to you? Point still stands.

.. players like Kawhi and Giannis evolved into superstars.

And how many Giannis and Kawhi type players exist in 550 players league? 2 ? Ok,, i'll give you benefit of a doubt and double that number to 4. So probability of that type of development is 0,73%.
Btw Kawhi Leonard, at second year at college averaged close to 16 ppg, 10 rpb ,2,5 apg, 1,4 steals. 76% FTs. Yes, he did not have elite 3 point range (29%), but contures of arhytype of player he will become were visiable.
Notion that "nobody knew about Giannis" is simply false narrative. He signed 4 years contract with A vision team of Spain, second strongest basketball league in the world, and in same time 2 other teams tried to sign him, non other than current Euroleague champion- Efes and one of strongest, well known Europien basketball teams - Barcelona.


NBA game time is not the same as practicing for a year while recovering from an injury.

And still it's unfair adventage. Recovery of no injury lasts from as late as March of previous year, to October of next year. There is year and half gap. NBA rookies, actual ones, jump from college, predraft workouts, summer league, to preseason. Their preparation time is basically August- October. Needless to say, ones who skip rookie year have 18 months to adjust to life as nba pro, focus on diet, conditioning, nba schedule and lifestyle and simply grow into body of nba player without grind of 82 games.
3 of 5 most dominant rookie seasons, in last 15 years, were all from players who skipped rookie season.Ben Simmons, Griffin and Embiid are by far strongest "rookie" showcases. Embiid and Griffins are only rookies since Lebron who averaged 21 ppg as rookies.
You can't tell me that there isn't strong indicator that them not playing actual rookie seasons had nothing do with it.

I still struggle to figure out/grasp what you really like about this team and why you are a fan

i'll watch season to see Suggs play. But i'm well aware that most of current Magic playres won't be in nba in 5 years. Pretty much 2013-14 season, where only Dipo, Vuc and Harris survived in nba for 5 years. And that roster had 10 guys under age of 25.

What i find irritating is how irrational people get with Isaac.
Brandon Roy in first 4 years played 274 games, Porzings 186, Oden 82, Isaac 113.

His knee issues won't just magiclly go away after he torn ACL and meniscus and had before all that another same knee injury. And expecting him to not actually return same but somehow improve and develop his game to me is just crazy talk. He did not play serious basketball for 2 calendar year. He lasted for 31 min in bubble.
And even if he somehow menages to not again huge injuries, goes without saying, it will require incredible amount of monitoring and scheaduled rest games for probably rest of his career. And pls don't give me Derick Rose as " good" example: Rose is 190 pounds guard (less stress on knees) who didn't play 70 games season since 2011.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#494 » by DWhiteMamba » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:14 am

Have you guys fired Alex Martins yet? It feels like he was a big problem with all your front office dysfunction in past years, under several regimes. Things are never going to be fixed until you lose that clown IMO.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#495 » by pepe1991 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:18 am

DWhiteMamba wrote:Have you guys fired Alex Martins yet? It feels like he was a big problem with all your front office dysfunction in past years, under several regimes. Things are never going to be fixed until you lose that clown IMO.


We promoted him in CEO :lol:
Him and Matt Lloyd are bulletproof within that team. Lloyd is just as incompetent. Just google how many lottery picks Orlando drafted since he joind team in 2012 and how many allstars that produced and how many sucessful second round picks he found ,being assistent GM and in charge of scouting department :rofl:

Image

just look at this face, if you line up LEbron, Davis, Durant and Ryan Kelly in same room, he would probably draft Ryan Kelly

Image
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#496 » by DWhiteMamba » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:56 am

Damn. Good luck. It seems like they undermine everyone who is there; Stan Van Gunday, Otis, Hennigan, etc. How can a GM have a chance fixing things when they have guys backstabbing them the whole way through.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#497 » by bigdogdylan5 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:11 pm

drsd wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Yes, Klay Thompson will be shell of former self. If you think 6'7 not so athletic wing who relied heavily on smart cuts and angles to cover guards won't have huge issues keeping up with guards now, where he was out of basketball for almost 3 years, i really don't know what to tell you.
Kawhi Leonard with Spurs and one with Clippers isn't ev
en same person any more, injuries already slowed him down a lot and he has to be monitored and used for 50-60 games a season because his body can't hold up. Right before his first major injury, he only missed 18 out of 164 games , than, after injury, he is yet to play over 60 games a season.

You talk about Isaac's assertivness on offense based on one game.

I'm not harsh on players. I judge them based on what they show , given their usage, value of their skillset compared to rest of the league and age.
In Okeke's case, he wasn't even better than Iwundu for few months ( and right when i made thread about him, he menaged to looked like nba player for 10 games) than he reverted back to his old- delux Iwundu ways for rest of a season. Given he was 22 years old, had one whole calendar year off to work on his game, he was just rookie in thoery. History shows that "rookies" that skip actual rookie year normally play much better and closer to their ceiling than actual rookies, who skip from college to nba in matter of months.
Ben Simmons, Blake Griffin, David Robinson, Joel Embiid. You get memo and blueprint, they were all ROY winners or candidates because they had incredible amount of time to prepare for nba. Huge chunk of nba people think that rookies who didn't play rookie year due injury recovery, shouldn't even be in conversation for ROY (and i tend to agree )...


And no , i don't know future, but 6'11 Isaac can't put ball on the floor , can't attack people off dribble and has too slow of relise to play at full time SF.
Wagner can't drrible in traffic ( couldn't even at college) , struggles as spot up shooter, has slow relise and struggles to attack set defense. Everything points out he can't play SF.
We saw Okeke in rookie year, he can't attack off dribble nor he creates shots for himself. He drew no fouls whatsoever mostly because he couldn't even drive to paint. Only 15% of all his shots were inside 3 feet.

Hell, we even played him at PF because he was more comfortable there.

It's not hard to figure having overlapping skills, not having anybody who offers more versitality, better scoring, better shooting, draws more fouls, can split defense by attacking assigments off dribble would be more logical fit next to one of those guys. It's not rocket science, all best teams in nba have their best players and top 2 scoring options at wing. Davis, Giannis, Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, George , you name it . Most elite offense are generated from wing positions (especially playoffs, when guards lack of size comes to play ).

As for winning tickets numbers, i don't have that, but betting Magic to win less than 30 games is easiest win possible.


And-1


When I look at the roster as constructed, I can only predict Two of the 2022/23 opening night starters: Suggs and Isaac. This team we will see on opening night will be unlike last season and next season will be unlike this season.

But it will be a fun season for scouting. Both individually and for assessing team fits.

As to your comment for 30 wins, I peg the team at 28 (too much "space and pace" to be a league-worst roster, if I have heard that somewhere). But in the end, there is still a lack of scoring that will damn the team in most games.

And the youth of this club must lead to huge amounts of TOs. Perhaps that is offset by good rebounding; I would not bet on that though.

I do look forward to the product that comes. And there is some small hope that 3-to-5 players are individually better than projected.
(( What will Hampton become is a major Q-mark for me )).

,..

Don’t listen to the bill simmons podcast released yesterday. His favorite over/under to bet is the magic under 23 wins. He made good points betting against Isaac health as he and fultz try to work back to full strength. I would be happy this year with some players showing more potential and getting better and going for another top pick to pair with Suggs and whoever else on the roster proves themselves
Magic BaT
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PG Rod Strickland
SG Jason Richardson
SF Doug Christie
PF Al Harrington
C Shawn Kemp
Sixth man: Kenny Smith
Coach: Rick Carlisle
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#498 » by yoyojw17 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:37 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
They do, within already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college and rookie year/rookie contract.
What young players never do, is wake up at age of 23, after playing same sport for 12-15 years and learn to shoot like Klay,dribble like Irving or post up like Hakeem over span of 2 months.

Case and point, every Elf Payton shooting debate 2014-2017 was people talking themselfs into notion he just needs to "work at jumpshot bit more" and everything will be fine. Here we are, 8 years later, guess who still didn't learn how to shoot? :D

LOL.... Elf is like your whipping boy. Come on man... we can't cherry-pick players that prove your point. Lol... players like Kawhi and Giannis evolved into superstars. Plus if it really was that easy "already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college" drafts should be pretty damn straightforward. but there are soooooo many variables and uncertainties. and that's also why we talk about potential and upside.

Yes... there is an exponential learning curve and natural affinity to things that we do in our youth.... but any of us can work on certain aspects of our crafts through experience, practice, and dedication. Whether it will translate to live games... we would have to wait and see... or it might only exist in empty gyms.

needless to say.... Okeke just finished his true rookie season. NBA game time is not the same as practicing for a year while recovering from an injury. but during the season... I saw many sparks of things I would love to see from him. And the same thing goes with Isaac. injuries have robbed him of EXPERIENCE time and have caused setbacks.

All i want is to give them a fair shake when they return. See how all of these young INDIVIDUALS add up to form a TEAM.

I still struggle to figure out/grasp what you really like about this team and why you are a fan.... hahaha


Elfrid Payton is definition of player who was drafted in lottery based on notion that he will develop skill he showed no signs of having. That's why i always use him as example of player who didn't learn basketball skill over times because , at least to me, it was clear he never will.
I mean, i can use MCW or MKG if that makes less personal to you? Point still stands.

.. players like Kawhi and Giannis evolved into superstars.

And how many Giannis and Kawhi type players exist in 550 players league? 2 ? Ok,, i'll give you benefit of a doubt and double that number to 4. So probability of that type of development is 0,73%.
Btw Kawhi Leonard, at second year at college averaged close to 16 ppg, 10 rpb ,2,5 apg, 1,4 steals. 76% FTs. Yes, he did not have elite 3 point range (29%), but contures of arhytype of player he will become were visiable.
Notion that "nobody knew about Giannis" is simply false narrative. He signed 4 years contract with A vision team of Spain, second strongest basketball league in the world, and in same time 2 other teams tried to sign him, non other than current Euroleague champion- Efes and one of strongest, well known Europien basketball teams - Barcelona.


NBA game time is not the same as practicing for a year while recovering from an injury.

And still it's unfair adventage. Recovery of no injury lasts from as late as March of previous year, to October of next year. There is year and half gap. NBA rookies, actual ones, jump from college, predraft workouts, summer league, to preseason. Their preparation time is basically August- October. Needless to say, ones who skip rookie year have 18 months to adjust to life as nba pro, focus on diet, conditioning, nba schedule and lifestyle and simply grow into body of nba player without grind of 82 games.
3 of 5 most dominant rookie seasons, in last 15 years, were all from players who skipped rookie season.Ben Simmons, Griffin and Embiid are by far strongest "rookie" showcases. Embiid and Griffins are only rookies since Lebron who averaged 21 ppg as rookies.
You can't tell me that there isn't strong indicator that them not playing actual rookie seasons had nothing do with it.

I still struggle to figure out/grasp what you really like about this team and why you are a fan

i'll watch season to see Suggs play. But i'm well aware that most of current Magic playres won't be in nba in 5 years. Pretty much 2013-14 season, where only Dipo, Vuc and Harris survived in nba for 5 years. And that roster had 10 guys under age of 25.

What i find irritating is how irrational people get with Isaac.
Brandon Roy in first 4 years played 274 games, Porzings 186, Oden 82, Isaac 113.

His knee issues won't just magiclly go away after he torn ACL and meniscus and had before all that another same knee injury. And expecting him to not actually return same but somehow improve and develop his game to me is just crazy talk. He did not play serious basketball for 2 calendar year. He lasted for 31 min in bubble.
And even if he somehow menages to not again huge injuries, goes without saying, it will require incredible amount of monitoring and scheaduled rest games for probably rest of his career. And pls don't give me Derick Rose as " good" example: Rose is 190 pounds guard (less stress on knees) who didn't play 70 games season since 2011.

Trust me bro... i'm not jaded at all.... i just choose to give them a chance till proven wrong. and when **** hits the fan... Eh.... so be it. Reality of life... "**** happens". lol... and it doesn't hurt to be hopeful of what could be... because i'm rooting for them and not against them. And yeah... they might not pan out... and when it's understood... you pivot and move on... the same way that you said that most won't be on the team in 5 years... cuz the cards will have to be shuffled... dealt in and pulled out. :-)

but i'm just speaking for myself. lol
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#499 » by Hoopslife » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:44 pm

pepe1991 wrote:just look at this face, if you line up LEbron, Davis, Durant and Ryan Kelly in same room, he would probably draft Ryan Kelly


Making fun of his looks is a real douche-bag move.
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Re: Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0 

Post#500 » by Just Plain Mark » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:04 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
They do, within already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college and rookie year/rookie contract.
What young players never do, is wake up at age of 23, after playing same sport for 12-15 years and learn to shoot like Klay,dribble like Irving or post up like Hakeem over span of 2 months.

Case and point, every Elf Payton shooting debate 2014-2017 was people talking themselfs into notion he just needs to "work at jumpshot bit more" and everything will be fine. Here we are, 8 years later, guess who still didn't learn how to shoot? :D

LOL.... Elf is like your whipping boy. Come on man... we can't cherry-pick players that prove your point. Lol... players like Kawhi and Giannis evolved into superstars. Plus if it really was that easy "already existing skills that they showcase at youth levels, college" drafts should be pretty damn straightforward. but there are soooooo many variables and uncertainties. and that's also why we talk about potential and upside.

Yes... there is an exponential learning curve and natural affinity to things that we do in our youth.... but any of us can work on certain aspects of our crafts through experience, practice, and dedication. Whether it will translate to live games... we would have to wait and see... or it might only exist in empty gyms.

needless to say.... Okeke just finished his true rookie season. NBA game time is not the same as practicing for a year while recovering from an injury. but during the season... I saw many sparks of things I would love to see from him. And the same thing goes with Isaac. injuries have robbed him of EXPERIENCE time and have caused setbacks.

All i want is to give them a fair shake when they return. See how all of these young INDIVIDUALS add up to form a TEAM.

I still struggle to figure out/grasp what you really like about this team and why you are a fan.... hahaha


Elfrid Payton is definition of player who was drafted in lottery based on notion that he will develop skill he showed no signs of having. That's why i always use him as example of player who didn't learn basketball skill over times because , at least to me, it was clear he never will.
I mean, i can use MCW or MKG if that makes less personal to you? Point still stands.

.. players like Kawhi and Giannis evolved into superstars.

And how many Giannis and Kawhi type players exist in 550 players league? 2 ? Ok,, i'll give you benefit of a doubt and double that number to 4. So probability of that type of development is 0,73%.
Btw Kawhi Leonard, at second year at college averaged close to 16 ppg, 10 rpb ,2,5 apg, 1,4 steals. 76% FTs. Yes, he did not have elite 3 point range (29%), but contures of arhytype of player he will become were visiable.
Notion that "nobody knew about Giannis" is simply false narrative. He signed 4 years contract with A vision team of Spain, second strongest basketball league in the world, and in same time 2 other teams tried to sign him, non other than current Euroleague champion- Efes and one of strongest, well known Europien basketball teams - Barcelona.


NBA game time is not the same as practicing for a year while recovering from an injury.

And still it's unfair adventage. Recovery of no injury lasts from as late as March of previous year, to October of next year. There is year and half gap. NBA rookies, actual ones, jump from college, predraft workouts, summer league, to preseason. Their preparation time is basically August- October. Needless to say, ones who skip rookie year have 18 months to adjust to life as nba pro, focus on diet, conditioning, nba schedule and lifestyle and simply grow into body of nba player without grind of 82 games.
3 of 5 most dominant rookie seasons, in last 15 years, were all from players who skipped rookie season.Ben Simmons, Griffin and Embiid are by far strongest "rookie" showcases. Embiid and Griffins are only rookies since Lebron who averaged 21 ppg as rookies.
You can't tell me that there isn't strong indicator that them not playing actual rookie seasons had nothing do with it.

I still struggle to figure out/grasp what you really like about this team and why you are a fan

i'll watch season to see Suggs play. But i'm well aware that most of current Magic playres won't be in nba in 5 years. Pretty much 2013-14 season, where only Dipo, Vuc and Harris survived in nba for 5 years. And that roster had 10 guys under age of 25.

What i find irritating is how irrational people get with Isaac.
Brandon Roy in first 4 years played 274 games, Porzings 186, Oden 82, Isaac 113.

His knee issues won't just magiclly go away after he torn ACL and meniscus and had before all that another same knee injury. And expecting him to not actually return same but somehow improve and develop his game to me is just crazy talk. He did not play serious basketball for 2 calendar year. He lasted for 31 min in bubble.
And even if he somehow menages to not again huge injuries, goes without saying, it will require incredible amount of monitoring and scheaduled rest games for probably rest of his career. And pls don't give me Derick Rose as " good" example: Rose is 190 pounds guard (less stress on knees) who didn't play 70 games season since 2011.


I don't expect this team to win many games this year, but this team doesn't seem to compare well to the 2013-2014 team. The 13-14 team had one lottery pick and a bunch of undrafted, late first round and second rounders.

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