What do we give to get Ben Simmons?

[basketballRob]

TMac wasn't a star when we signed him. He was basically at the same stage MPJ is now.

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[yoyojw17]

Someone gave me ish for this trade... think i suggested gary harris and anthony. not sure y either. they complain about 3 pnt shooting and scoff at the thought of picking up a volume 3 point shooter.... and by volume we're talking bout 2/3rds of shots at a near 40% clip. lol. Talk about spacing ... that's all the guy does is provide spacing. lol. and he's gotten better at moving the ball around. and the the 3 years left on his contract would give us a defined role at a defined quantity. sounds like a win to me. He's still pretty young and in his prime. I would be totally down with this.

Harris and Anthony for Hield is reasonable for Orlando. Whether the Kings would get more from another team, perhaps they would.

Still, the Magic need a long-term player at the SG slot, and Harris-expiring contract with the addition of a probably multi-year backup combo-guard, I think this is a clear roster upgrade.

It does lead to a MAJOR question for the outcome of Fultz' role on this team though. And for that reason, I would not expect any trade for a SG until next off-season.


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when i initally said it... it was actually before the draft. So before we got suggs and them getting mitchell. lol.... might make things more complicated now. but yeah.... not sure what would happen if it happened now. At the time... he would have given us what we needed next to fultz and everyone gets more space.

[nicnac215]

I'd rather just throw a big contract at MPJ or Mikal Bridges and see what happens. Both Phoenix and Denver would have to go into the luxury tax to keep those guys.

Bridges probably makes more sense, because he can play some two. Also Phoenix would have to go deep into the luxury tax to keep him.

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MPJ makes way more sense to me. He fits with Suggs and Isaac better and has more star potential. I’d offer him the max and make Denver match. He would be our best FA signing since Tmac.

[drsd]

just so we are clear just turned 25 year old Simmons makes $33M and soon to be 29 year old Hield makes $23M. Simmons in all likelihood would be the SF should he was acquired by Orlando.

And to expand, Simmons is on an escalating contract that goes up to $40,338,144 in 2024/25, with $146,684,160 committed over the next 4-years (averaging $36,671,040 per year). Hield is on a (very attractive) declining contract that goes down to $19,321,857 in 2023/24 with $63,614,149 committed over the next 3-years (averaging $21,204,716 per year).

I am not saying we should do this, or if we even have the assets to make it happen, but it's hard to get acquire an all NBA player these days. I'd think our FO office should be at least figuring out if they could make it work with Simmons.

I assume you mean assets for Simmons. Acquiring Hield should be a simple as Harris and Anthony, as an expiring and a backup-PG must be pretty close to the max deal any team would offer for him.

Personally, I am fine with the trajectory of the rebuild, but we are going to have a lot of things break our way if any of our guys have as much on court production as Simmons has had so far in his young career.

What trajectory? Orlando has 2 known starters going forward (Suggs and Isaac), and has a big question mark on another 2 (maybe Fultz and maybe Carter or Bamba). And loads of high quality bench players.

For me what I really, really like about this roster is that its bench is already developed. And that leave the Magic with the same problem it has had since 2013; scoring on the wing. That won't be Hield, but trading for him for only two guards allows the Magic to seriously consider how Fultz could be flipped in to a high-quality SF for the 2022/23 season. Otherwise, this is the 2022/23 roster:

Suggs/Anthony
Fultz/Hampton
Isaac/Ross
Okeke/F-Wagner
Carter/Bamba
(plus a rookie probably selected in the 5-8 range)

A lot of good players and nothing more than a 41-41 win potential. I don't like that trajectory. A change needs to be made and the Magic nicely has the assets to make such a change.


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[drsd]

when i initally said it... it was actually before the draft. So before we got suggs and them getting mitchell. lol.... might make things more complicated now. but yeah.... not sure what would happen if it happened now. At the time... he would have given us what we needed next to fultz and everyone gets more space.

If the Magic had landed the GSW draft (Kuminga and Moody), I would have been very happy if the Magic had flipped Harris, Fultz, the 2023 FRP, the Denver, and the Chicago pick for Simmons. But that was then.

Now it is all about asset management around Suggs.


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[T-Cat]

when i initally said it... it was actually before the draft. So before we got suggs and them getting mitchell. lol.... might make things more complicated now. but yeah.... not sure what would happen if it happened now. At the time... he would have given us what we needed next to fultz and everyone gets more space.

If the Magic had landed the GSW draft (Kuminga and Moody), I would have been very happy if the Magic had flipped Harris, Fultz, the 2023 FRP, the Denver, and the Chicago pick for Simmons. But that was then.

Now it is all about asset management around Suggs.


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His value is definitely taking a hit!

Read on Twitter

[jonbob17]

And to expand, Simmons is on an escalating contract that goes up to $40,338,144 in 2024/25, with $146,684,160 committed over the next 4-years (averaging $36,671,040 per year). Hield is on a (very attractive) declining contract that goes down to $19,321,857 in 2023/24 with $63,614,149 committed over the next 3-years (averaging $21,204,716 per year).


I assume you mean assets for Simmons. Acquiring Hield should be a simple as Harris and Anthony, as an expiring and a backup-PG must be pretty close to the max deal any team would offer for him.


What trajectory? Orlando has 2 known starters going forward (Suggs and Isaac), and has a big question mark on another 2 (maybe Fultz and maybe Carter or Bamba). And loads of high quality bench players.

For me what I really, really like about this roster is that its bench is already developed. And that leave the Magic with the same problem it has had since 2013; scoring on the wing. That won't be Hield, but trading for him for only two guards allows the Magic to seriously consider how Fultz could be flipped in to a high-quality SF for the 2022/23 season. Otherwise, this is the 2022/23 roster:

Suggs/Anthony
Fultz/Hampton
Isaac/Ross
Okeke/F-Wagner
Carter/Bamba
(plus a rookie probably selected in the 5-8 range)

A lot of good players and nothing more than a 41-41 win potential. I don't like that trajectory. A change needs to be made and the Magic nicely has the assets to make such a change.


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In reality declining contracts are not as valuable as fans like to think (or get fed from management) The only clubs that do declining contracts are bad teams that have money to spend now. Sure if you keep a guy deep into the contract their salary is less, and theoretically easier to trade. It actually makes it harder to move guys earlier in the contracts if you need to (Buddy Hield is a good example). When you are trading for a deal the number that matters is the current year. That is what the acquiring team has to make work. The reason the overwhelming majority of contracts are escalating, in particular the big contracts, is that the ever expanding salary cap. Think of it as salary inflation. It's how the nba works, and is why contracts signed today shouldn't be as bad tomorrow. Players will be earning more on average.

Tractory: We are in a rebuild. We are acquiring and developing young players. We have 8 guys 23 or younger that were fairly touted prospects. We're probably going to struggle to win 20 games this year, we will be getting another top 5 pick in all likelihood, in a relatively strong draft.

The Magic need two players out of the 8 to really break out, a couple more to become very good rotation guys, and hit on the 2022 draft pick. Then things get interesting. The Magic will have plenty of salary cap, young guys to trade and draft capital, 2 extra firsts.

Hield does nothing for us now, and he will be in his thirties by the time we are ready to compete (that's as early as 22-23). Harris and Cole is an overpay in my book, and I don't even mind if the Magic buy Harris out. You don't give a second year, 15th pick for a guy who isn't a top 100 nba guy getting paid $21M a year, unless one year was all you needed to see that the player won't live up to expectations.

Not all 8 of our young guys will be with the team 3 years from now, but we shouldn't be trading them for back end NBA starters to chase a few wins now.

You want to change the trajectory, use assetsto get a star, and hope Suggs develops into a star himself, or move him for a second star. Two stars and then build the rest of the team out, and move the guys that don't fit on to greener pastures. Simmons is a star. Period.

I think we should play the long game through the next lottery and see where we end up, and then find the right pieces. I like the young guys and think some of them have a real chance to be good basketball players. To me Hampton's upside is significantly higher than Hield's (excellent 3 point shooting and nothing else). Hampton should end up as a fine shooter, and be athletic enough to get his own shot while playing good defense.
At the same time if we were able to make a move for Simmons , I could understand why, BECAUSE IT IS SO HARD to acquire stars through free agency and the draft. You get a chance sometimes you have to take it.

[yoyojw17]

And to expand, Simmons is on an escalating contract that goes up to $40,338,144 in 2024/25, with $146,684,160 committed over the next 4-years (averaging $36,671,040 per year). Hield is on a (very attractive) declining contract that goes down to $19,321,857 in 2023/24 with $63,614,149 committed over the next 3-years (averaging $21,204,716 per year).


I assume you mean assets for Simmons. Acquiring Hield should be a simple as Harris and Anthony, as an expiring and a backup-PG must be pretty close to the max deal any team would offer for him.


What trajectory? Orlando has 2 known starters going forward (Suggs and Isaac), and has a big question mark on another 2 (maybe Fultz and maybe Carter or Bamba). And loads of high quality bench players.

For me what I really, really like about this roster is that its bench is already developed. And that leave the Magic with the same problem it has had since 2013; scoring on the wing. That won't be Hield, but trading for him for only two guards allows the Magic to seriously consider how Fultz could be flipped in to a high-quality SF for the 2022/23 season. Otherwise, this is the 2022/23 roster:

Suggs/Anthony
Fultz/Hampton
Isaac/Ross
Okeke/F-Wagner
Carter/Bamba
(plus a rookie probably selected in the 5-8 range)

A lot of good players and nothing more than a 41-41 win potential. I don't like that trajectory. A change needs to be made and the Magic nicely has the assets to make such a change.


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In reality declining contracts are not as valuable as fans like to think (or get fed from management) The only clubs that do declining contracts are bad teams that have money to spend now. Sure if you keep a guy deep into the contract their salary is less, and theoretically easier to trade. It actually makes it harder to move guys earlier in the contracts if you need to (Buddy Hield is a good example). When you are trading for a deal the number that matters is the current year. That is what the acquiring team has to make work. The reason the overwhelming majority of contracts are escalating, in particular the big contracts, is that the ever expanding salary cap. Think of it as salary inflation. It's how the nba works, and is why contracts signed today shouldn't be as bad tomorrow. Players will be earning more on average.

Tractory: We are in a rebuild. We are acquiring and developing young players. We have 8 guys 23 or younger that were fairly touted prospects. We're probably going to struggle to win 20 games this year, we will be getting another top 5 pick in all likelihood, in a relatively strong draft.

The Magic need two players out of the 8 to really break out, a couple more to become very good rotation guys, and hit on the 2022 draft pick. Then things get interesting. The Magic will have plenty of salary cap, young guys to trade and draft capital, 2 extra firsts.

Hield does nothing for us now, and he will be in his thirties by the time we are ready to compete (that's as early as 22-23). Harris and Cole is an overpay in my book, and I don't even mind if the Magic buy Harris out. You don't give a second year, 15th pick for a guy who isn't a top 100 nba guy getting paid $21M a year, unless one year was all you needed to see that the player won't live up to expectations.

Not all 8 of our young guys will be with the team 3 years from now, but we shouldn't be trading them for back end NBA starters to chase a few wins now.

You want to change the trajectory, use assetsto get a star, and hope Suggs develops into a star himself, or move him for a second star. Two stars and then build the rest of the team out, and move the guys that don't fit on to greener pastures. Simmons is a star. Period.

I think we should play the long game through the next lottery and see where we end up, and then find the right pieces. I like the young guys and think some of them have a real chance to be good basketball players. To me Hampton's upside is significantly higher than Hield's (excellent 3 point shooting and nothing else). Hampton should end up as a fine shooter, and be athletic enough to get his own shot while playing good defense.
At the same time if we were able to make a move for Simmons , I could understand why, BECAUSE IT IS SO HARD to acquire stars through free agency and the draft. You get a chance sometimes you have to take it.

I won't say he does nothing..... He is probably one of the better shooters in the league.... shooting nearly 40% on 10 shots per game. :-O .... that's not nothing. Plus his game is not going to take away from others... he has other talents but his primary skill is a shooter. He's not the player that will take the ball out of others hands on a nightly basis.... he'll just make the game easier for other players as a release outlet... and gravity to the three point line... allowing them to succeed more. BUT if you do believe that he'll put us over a hump... then i can get the path and the desire for another tank season.... otherwise I think he'll be a great addition for the team and the player development of our youth.

[jonbob17]

I won't say he does nothing..... He is probably one of the better shooters in the league.... shooting nearly 40% on 10 shots per game. :-O .... that's not nothing. Plus his game is not going to take away from others... he has other talents but his primary skill is a shooter. He's not the player that will take the ball out of others hands on a nightly basis.... he'll just make the game easier for other players as a release outlet... and gravity to the three point line... allowing them to succeed more. BUT if you do believe that he'll put us over a hump... then i can get the path and the desire for another tank season.... otherwise I think he'll be a great addition for the team and the player development of our youth.

I had said he shot 3s and nothing else. An excellent 3 point shooter 39% on 10 shots a game is good. He played 34 minutes a game and scored 4.6 points on not three point shots and part of those are almost certainly on free throws drawn on 3 point shots. He's ok moving the ball around. The defense is poor.
Shooting is absolutely important in this league, but it can be found, and can be cheap, you just gotta look for it. We need our guys that do have other skills and traits to learn to shoot. I am not sure putting a guy in front of them helps with that mission.

I wouldn't give up Cole for that player on this team. We will be tanking at some point this year. I don't really think Hield would add many wins to the standings. Every win does matter though, as we have found out time and time again. I want all our young guys getting as many minutes as possible.
Keep Cole, let us figure out exactly what he is, and move him when we know what we need.

[drsd]

I won't say he does nothing..... He is probably one of the better shooters in the league.... shooting nearly 40% on 10 shots per game. :-O .... that's not nothing. Plus his game is not going to take away from others... he has other talents but his primary skill is a shooter. He's not the player that will take the ball out of others hands on a nightly basis.... he'll just make the game easier for other players as a release outlet... and gravity to the three point line... allowing them to succeed more. BUT if you do believe that he'll put us over a hump... then i can get the path and the desire for another tank season.... otherwise I think he'll be a great addition for the team and the player development of our youth.

I had said he shot 3s and nothing else. An excellent 3 point shooter 39% on 10 shots a game is good. He played 34 minutes a game and scored 4.6 points on not three point shots and part of those are almost certainly on free throws drawn on 3 point shots. He's ok moving the ball around. The defense is poor.
Shooting is absolutely important in this league, but it can be found, and can be cheap, you just gotta look for it. We need our guys that do have other skills and traits to learn to shoot. I am not sure putting a guy in front of them helps with that mission.

I wouldn't give up Cole for that player on this team. We will be tanking at some point this year. I don't really think Hield would add many wins to the standings. Every win does matter though, as we have found out time and time again. I want all our young guys getting as many minutes as possible.
Keep Cole, let us figure out exactly what he is, and move him when we know what we need.

Orlando needs a committed SG moving forward. Its either Fultz, or the Magic need to trade for a player like Hield. That Hield is available is the only reason I started off on him as a narrative.

Look: The Magic is probable to aim to make the 2023 playoffs. Hield could be a key asset in that. It is less clear to me how Simmons is an asset in a 2023 playoff run. He conflicts with Suggs and, unless he was going to play SF, it puts Fultz on the bench.

In conclusion to my views on this narrative: I do not think the Magic will consider trading for Simmons. That is really my only point.


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[jonbob17]

Orlando needs a committed SG moving forward. Its either Fultz, or the Magic need to trade for a player like Hield. That Hield is available is the only reason I started off on him as a narrative.

Look: The Magic is probable to aim to make the 2023 playoffs. Hield could be a key asset in that. It is less clear to me how Simmons is an asset in a 2023 playoff run. He conflicts with Suggs and, unless he was going to play SF, it puts Fultz on the bench.

In conclusion to my views on this narrative: I do not think the Magic will consider trading for Simmons. That is really my only point.


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My point is the Magic aren't going to be moving young guys right now for a player who isn't moving the needle. Does Hield add to the win total? Probably helps them win a couple extra. We'd be replacing a young guards minutes with a veterans. Our guards are going to make a lot of mistakes, so reducing those mistakes would add to wins.

I don't think of us know what the front office's long term plans are. I think they would be trying to win in 22-23, but they very well could be taking the long view, and are more concerned just developing the young guys for a couple more years.

The only trade I can see the Magic making where the we are sending out young prospects is if a young star(ish) or undervalued young guy is coming back. Ben Simmons is absolutely a star, undervalued, and relatively young. Hield is certainly not anything close to a star. He may be undervalued since he is paid so much, but of course he is not young, same age as Fournier.

I like the idea of starting to sign free agents next offseason when we have a better idea of who the nucleus of this team will be. I believe Hampton will be the SG of the future. He has a long, long way to go, but he has the size and athleticism. Just needs to improve skills and continue to get acclimated to the speed and spacing of the NBA game.

[yoyojw17]

Orlando needs a committed SG moving forward. Its either Fultz, or the Magic need to trade for a player like Hield. That Hield is available is the only reason I started off on him as a narrative.

Look: The Magic is probable to aim to make the 2023 playoffs. Hield could be a key asset in that. It is less clear to me how Simmons is an asset in a 2023 playoff run. He conflicts with Suggs and, unless he was going to play SF, it puts Fultz on the bench.

In conclusion to my views on this narrative: I do not think the Magic will consider trading for Simmons. That is really my only point.


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My point is the Magic aren't going to be moving young guys right now for a player who isn't moving the needle. Does Hield add to the win total? Probably helps them win a couple extra. We'd be replacing a young guards minutes with a veterans. Our guards are going to make a lot of mistakes, so reducing those mistakes would add to wins.

I don't think of us know what the front office's long term plans are. I think they would be trying to win in 22-23, but they very well could be taking the long view, and are more concerned just developing the young guys for a couple more years.

The only trade I can see the Magic making where the we are sending out young prospects is if a young star(ish) or undervalued young guy is coming back. Ben Simmons is absolutely a star, undervalued, and relatively young. Hield is certainly not anything close to a star. He may be undervalued since he is paid so much, but of course he is not young, same age as Fournier.

I like the idea of starting to sign free agents next offseason when we have a better idea of who the nucleus of this team will be. I believe Hampton will be the SG of the future. He has a long, long way to go, but he has the size and athleticism. Just needs to improve skills and continue to get acclimated to the speed and spacing of the NBA game.

I just see it as... he fits a need that we definitely need filled. and because of that he helps with the balance of the team without the need for always having the ball in his hands all the time. And because he is a secondary player and ballhandler (maybe even tertiary) he will not stunt the growth of the other guys ... and instead compliment and ease them into a more comfortable point. ANd i agree.... i would love for hamilton to be our guard of the future... but this gives him a little leeway and opportunity to grow without the pressure. Shoot... him and hield can both average 28 minutes a night for the season. and by the time hield is coming into his last season.. we will be looking at giving hamilton that next contract. fits well.

Personally... I like gary harris as well.... and shoot... if he has a decent season returning to a reliable shooter and great defender... I think he would be perfect for this team... and I would love to retain him after this year. He's still a really good age... but then i would hope that RJ outplays him sooner than later and slides into the starting lineup.

needless to say... I was just looking at it from the standpoint of using assets wisely and also providing more room to grow by clearing up the PG situation a little more. But we will see how it all pans out.

[BadMofoPimp]

I doubt the Magic brass is even considering Ben so to me this is a moot point. There is absolutely no need.

[pepe1991]

It makes sense to add Simmons in sense adding young, pretty much now underrated talent that is top tear player and who's value can easly be rebuilt for potential future trade or simply keeping him and treating him as one of your own cornerstones.

There is pointless to even adress how Suggs - Simmons combo would be amazing thing for both guys, SImmons would be less forced into pick&roll as handler and Simmons would have add lot of value as pick&roll screener who also can make amazing passes off catch and one of best defenders in basketball.

Issue,however , is ,current Magic roster has s***t loud of players that can't coexist with Simmons. Isaac, Wagner , Okeke, almost non of them make any sense next to Simmons. Simply lack of offensive firepower and lack of outside shot to make it work. Now , in theory some well improved Bamba could make sense at C as he shoots 3, but Bamba never showed capability to be nba level starter nor his 3 ball is that reliable.

Trade itself, is troublesome. Magic don't have much to offer. Basically Ross, Harris, Cole or Hampton and Isaac or Wagner. In all trades it makes more sense to use third team to facilitate trade and move Hampton or Cole and Okeke or Isaac or Wagner ( not sure how valuable any of them are in nba, hardly any of them bring any positive on court value, Isaac does, but he costs a lot and never plays ).
Fultz is negative value so i highly doubt anybody will be rushing to take homless version of Simmons packed into 6 inches smaller frame after ACL tear.


But there is simply way too many better alternatives for 76ers for trade. I already once mentioned Brogdon & Warner ( and it seems that trade is now being proposed by lot of nba pages).
Spurs are packed at PG-SG-SF spot, another great trade partner . Murray & Vassell for example.
Blazers and McCullum are usual suspects in big time allstar trades. This one actually makes sense .
Beasley & Russell is another trade i mentioned in past and it's another trade that is now added to nba pages around the globe.

Pacers trade is clear homerun for 76ers tho. Brogdon is super underrated guard , elite defender but one who can shoot. Warren would add to firepower off bench or a starter and fits into that 76ers big lineup philosophy.
Pacers would have Levert, Sabonis and Simmons, not perfect match but they have Sabonis or Turner as trade assets to move for guard/wing upgrade so it's very good spot to be if you are Pacers GM.

[drsd]

Hopefully the Cavs end this thread soon.

[MasterGMer]

Could Magic get into the discussion also?

[pepe1991]

Watch on YouTube

very nice video going into details how lot of Simmons issues come from very poor drawn plays from Doc ( who keeps being most overrated nba coach ).

[Skybox]

Watch on YouTube

very nice video going into details how lot of Simmons issues come from very poor drawn plays from Doc ( who keeps being most overrated nba coach ).

"The narrative had taken hold"...that's the truth. Simmons is flawed but still a hell of a player and we'd be very lucky to get him. I wouldn't give up Morey's asking price but I'd give up a lot to pair him with Suggs, Isaac, and whoever's left...Imagine if he comes out of this trauma with a big "prove em wrong" chip on his shoulder? As I said, he's already a hell of a player- I'd love to see him get a little more angry/hungry.

[OrlMagic05]

I'd rather just throw a big contract at MPJ or Mikal Bridges and see what happens. Both Phoenix and Denver would have to go into the luxury tax to keep those guys.

Bridges probably makes more sense, because he can play some two. Also Phoenix would have to go deep into the luxury tax to keep him.

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MPJ makes way more sense to me. He fits with Suggs and Isaac better and has more star potential. I’d offer him the max and make Denver match. He would be our best FA signing since Tmac.

I think someone like MPJ would be the final piece to this team. Having a legit go to go that can put the ball in the hole with someone like Suggs, Fultz, Isaac and a potential top 5 pick this year.. That team could be very scary on defense and offense.

[jonbob17]

Watch on YouTube

very nice video going into details how lot of Simmons issues come from very poor drawn plays from Doc ( who keeps being most overrated nba coach ).

Rivers really should be taking heaps of heat on this Philly situation. Not saying he made this bed, but his comments seem to have broken the proverbial back.

Even if Rivers didn't think Simmons is part of the future, you can't put your team in this situation of having to try to deal with this hold out imminent, in this game of leverage.

Simmons clearly has plenty of blame here too, but Rivers seems to skate through everything without anything sticking like he's wearing one of Donald Trump's Teflon Suits. What's he really done since his Celtic days...even then. I mean he got Grant Hill and Mcgrady to Orlando, but possibly cost us Tim Duncan.

Player personnel is much more valuable than coaching....Vogel...and Rivers did nothing to help the personnel situation in Philadelphia, unless convincing Austin that signing with the Knicks was better than joining Philly counts.