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WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER

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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#401 » by zaymon » Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:09 am

Bensational wrote:
Knightro wrote:The only discouraging thing for me so far is the lack of assertiveness.

Every time he's actually had the confidence to put the ball on the floor and drive, which in 2.5 games has only been a handful of times unfortunately, something good has typically happened.

Even if he gets cut off, he's still really tall and can see over most defenders and he's a good passer. It's not like he can't still make something positive happen.


I feel like I’m watching early Isaac again in many ways on the offensive end. Bit too much inclination to put the team first, causing hesitation on his I ndividual moves.


I think its little too much to expect Wagner to be assertive with hungry Anthony, Hampton and Suggs. He is only 19 he will have his time i see no reason for him to fight for the ball right now.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#402 » by Bensational » Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:21 am

zaymon wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Knightro wrote:The only discouraging thing for me so far is the lack of assertiveness.

Every time he's actually had the confidence to put the ball on the floor and drive, which in 2.5 games has only been a handful of times unfortunately, something good has typically happened.

Even if he gets cut off, he's still really tall and can see over most defenders and he's a good passer. It's not like he can't still make something positive happen.


I feel like I’m watching early Isaac again in many ways on the offensive end. Bit too much inclination to put the team first, causing hesitation on his I ndividual moves.


I think its little too much to expect Wagner to be assertive with hungry Anthony, Hampton and Suggs. He is only 19 he will have his time i see no reason for him to fight for the ball right now.


I’m not judging or criticising, just drawing the comparison. I like the guy. But yeah, similar to Isaac, I think there are louder mouths demanding to be fed first and he’s just trying to make it work.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#403 » by pepe1991 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:21 am

zaymon wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Knightro wrote:The only discouraging thing for me so far is the lack of assertiveness.

Every time he's actually had the confidence to put the ball on the floor and drive, which in 2.5 games has only been a handful of times unfortunately, something good has typically happened.

Even if he gets cut off, he's still really tall and can see over most defenders and he's a good passer. It's not like he can't still make something positive happen.


I feel like I’m watching early Isaac again in many ways on the offensive end. Bit too much inclination to put the team first, causing hesitation on his I ndividual moves.


I think its little too much to expect Wagner to be assertive with hungry Anthony, Hampton and Suggs. He is only 19 he will have his time i see no reason for him to fight for the ball right now.


I think that will be ongoing issue whole season, where Ross, Hampton, Cole will just hoist up shots to "make name for themselfs".

Cole alraedy took at least 14 shots in 15 out of 47 games as pro in nba. It's just part of his MO. Shotjacking.

That's why i don't think Wendell nor Bamba will have some great seasons, they simply won't get enough balls.

it will be interesting to see how coach handles this. Watson for Suns was, imo, worst nba coach in years, because when Booker was in his worst shotjacking mode, he went in public and said he want Booker to shoot even more... Neeldess to say, Watson won't be coaching any nba team again.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#404 » by CarraT » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:41 am

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
Bensational wrote:
I feel like I’m watching early Isaac again in many ways on the offensive end. Bit too much inclination to put the team first, causing hesitation on his I ndividual moves.


I think its little too much to expect Wagner to be assertive with hungry Anthony, Hampton and Suggs. He is only 19 he will have his time i see no reason for him to fight for the ball right now.


I think that will be ongoing issue whole season, where Ross, Hampton, Cole will just hoist up shots to "make name for themselfs".

Cole alraedy took at least 14 shots in 15 out of 47 games as pro in nba. It's just part of his MO. Shotjacking.

That's why i don't think Wendell nor Bamba will have some great seasons, they simply won't get enough balls.

it will be interesting to see how coach handles this. Watson for Suns was, imo, worst nba coach in years, because when Booker was in his worst shotjacking mode, he went in public and said he want Booker to shoot even more... Neeldess to say, Watson won't be coaching any nba team again.


Well, Booker shot even more every season after Watson. So Watson was either not worse at keeping booker in check than his replacements or he was right to say shoot more, because suns are on a good way.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#405 » by pepe1991 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:52 am

CarraT wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
I think its little too much to expect Wagner to be assertive with hungry Anthony, Hampton and Suggs. He is only 19 he will have his time i see no reason for him to fight for the ball right now.


I think that will be ongoing issue whole season, where Ross, Hampton, Cole will just hoist up shots to "make name for themselfs".

Cole alraedy took at least 14 shots in 15 out of 47 games as pro in nba. It's just part of his MO. Shotjacking.

That's why i don't think Wendell nor Bamba will have some great seasons, they simply won't get enough balls.

it will be interesting to see how coach handles this. Watson for Suns was, imo, worst nba coach in years, because when Booker was in his worst shotjacking mode, he went in public and said he want Booker to shoot even more... Neeldess to say, Watson won't be coaching any nba team again.


Well, Booker shot even more every season after Watson. So Watson was either not worse at keeping booker in check than his replacements or he was right to say shoot more, because suns are on a good way.


His shot amount stayed fairly the same, but he improved as passer and his efficiency went up.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#406 » by CarraT » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:38 am

pepe1991 wrote:
CarraT wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I think that will be ongoing issue whole season, where Ross, Hampton, Cole will just hoist up shots to "make name for themselfs".

Cole alraedy took at least 14 shots in 15 out of 47 games as pro in nba. It's just part of his MO. Shotjacking.

That's why i don't think Wendell nor Bamba will have some great seasons, they simply won't get enough balls.

it will be interesting to see how coach handles this. Watson for Suns was, imo, worst nba coach in years, because when Booker was in his worst shotjacking mode, he went in public and said he want Booker to shoot even more... Neeldess to say, Watson won't be coaching any nba team again.


Well, Booker shot even more every season after Watson. So Watson was either not worse at keeping booker in check than his replacements or he was right to say shoot more, because suns are on a good way.


His shot amount stayed fairly the same, but he improved as passer and his efficiency went up.


Of course he improved. Thats what Happens when you let young good players play through their mistakes and let them learn from it
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#407 » by pepe1991 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:35 am

CarraT wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
CarraT wrote:
Well, Booker shot even more every season after Watson. So Watson was either not worse at keeping booker in check than his replacements or he was right to say shoot more, because suns are on a good way.


His shot amount stayed fairly the same, but he improved as passer and his efficiency went up.


Of course he improved. Thats what Happens when you let young good players play through their mistakes and let them learn from it



not necessary. There are plenty of "good young players" who never really learned through their mistakes, developed terrible habbits and aged poorly.
OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans , Ellise , Jennings to name a few.
Booker's profiling into winning player is probably product of him maturing but also adding veterans to a team, mainly Chris Paul, and lesser exstend Crowder.

You can't tell me stupdity like this has no business in modern basketball

“I said, ‘Devin Booker, you’re going to be getting 16 to 22 shots a game and averaging 20 points,'” Watson told Yahoo Sports.


Imagine Greg Popovich going to young Parker and telling him he will hoist 22 shots a game? Pop would rather quit basketball than say those words.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#408 » by CarraT » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:40 am

pepe1991 wrote:
CarraT wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
His shot amount stayed fairly the same, but he improved as passer and his efficiency went up.


Of course he improved. Thats what Happens when you let young good players play through their mistakes and let them learn from it



not necessary. There are plenty of "good young players" who never really learned through their mistakes, developed terrible habbits and aged poorly.
OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans , Ellise , Jennings to name a few.
Booker's profiling into winning player is probably product of him maturing but also adding veterans to a team, mainly Chris Paul, and lesser exstend Crowder.


Still it is necessary to give young players the room to improve. And that´s what the suns did.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#409 » by pepe1991 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:43 am

CarraT wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
CarraT wrote:
Of course he improved. Thats what Happens when you let young good players play through their mistakes and let them learn from it



not necessary. There are plenty of "good young players" who never really learned through their mistakes, developed terrible habbits and aged poorly.
OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans , Ellise , Jennings to name a few.
Booker's profiling into winning player is probably product of him maturing but also adding veterans to a team, mainly Chris Paul, and lesser exstend Crowder.


Still it is necessary to give young players the room to improve. And that´s what the suns did.


I added above direct qoute from Earl Watson above.

Room to grow, sure, telling 20 years old boy that he will take 15-20 shots a night no matter what is pure stupidity from coach.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#410 » by Blue_and_Whte » Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:10 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
CarraT wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

not necessary. There are plenty of "good young players" who never really learned through their mistakes, developed terrible habbits and aged poorly.
OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans , Ellise , Jennings to name a few.
Booker's profiling into winning player is probably product of him maturing but also adding veterans to a team, mainly Chris Paul, and lesser exstend Crowder.


Still it is necessary to give young players the room to improve. And that´s what the suns did.


I added above direct qoute from Earl Watson above.

Room to grow, sure, telling 20 years old boy that he will take 15-20 shots a night no matter what is pure stupidity from coach.

No matter how they appear they are the best players in the world and they all have ego’s. A coach needs to put them in their place and make them earn everything.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#411 » by KillMonger » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:08 am

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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#412 » by Magic_Kingdom » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:16 pm

I'm still not sure if Wagner was the right pick at #8, but one thing seems clear -- he knows how to play, as Zeke kept saying in that highlight package. He's very good without the ball and seems to be in the right place a lot. And he's still only 19 so I assume he'll keep getting better. He needs to be more aggressive but that will come. I was actually pleasantly surprised by what I saw out of him in SL.

Having said that, we might have been one pick away from a star once again. Kuminga looks like a beast. He's one of those players who can get to the basket when he wants to. He did the same in the G-League but that's the G-League, and yes this is just SL, but I don't know man. He's hard to guard. And his 3-point shot was not as bas as advertised, right?
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#413 » by Knightro » Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:16 pm

Magic_Kingdom wrote:Having said that, we might have been one pick away from a star once again. Kuminga looks like a beast. He's one of those players who can get to the basket when he wants to. He did the same in the G-League but that's the G-League, and yes this is just SL, but I don't know man. He's hard to guard. And his 3-point shot was not as bas as advertised, right?


He slashed .397/.273 /.657 in five summer league games with 17 turnovers to just 8 assists.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#414 » by MagicTownBaller » Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:17 pm

Apparently Franz is a 74 overall in 2K22, same as his brother.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#415 » by zaymon » Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:26 pm

Knightro wrote:
Magic_Kingdom wrote:Having said that, we might have been one pick away from a star once again. Kuminga looks like a beast. He's one of those players who can get to the basket when he wants to. He did the same in the G-League but that's the G-League, and yes this is just SL, but I don't know man. He's hard to guard. And his 3-point shot was not as bas as advertised, right?


He slashed .397/.273 /.657 in five summer league games with 17 turnovers to just 8 assists.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I just dont get it. Did GSW bribed all the media or we watched some other summer league ? He was widely inefficient, doesnt showed he can get to the bastket at all outside defense breakdowns and yet everybody say he is a future star ? Help me understand.....
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#416 » by Knightro » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:42 pm

zaymon wrote:I just dont get it. Did GSW bribed all the media or we watched some other summer league ? He was widely inefficient, doesnt showed he can get to the bastket at all outside defense breakdowns and yet everybody say he is a future star ? Help me understand.....


I thought Kuminga looked literally the exact same he did in the G-League bubble.

Every so often everything will come together and he flash an absolute spectacular play.

The problem is that those special plays happens like once every 10 times.

And the other nine times he's dribbling it off his foot, or driving into traffic with no plan, or bricking an open jumper.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#417 » by SOUL » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:05 pm

I thought Kuminga looked less wild than I thought he would. Still inefficient, but those spectacular plays definitely came more than 1 out of 10 times. He's active out there which is a good sign, still makes a lot of mistakes but a lot of rooks will/do.

I do think once the season starts he's going to be pulled very quickly if he tries a lot of crazy stuff and that Moody will get a lot more minutes early on, but he's in a good place to "settle in". I'd rather have a situation of calming someone down (Kuminga) than trying to hype them up (Wiseman).
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#418 » by basketballRob » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:44 pm

Franz shot the ball well in the short stint as a pro, when he was 17.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/players/franz-wagner-1.html
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#419 » by dc » Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:35 am

SOUL wrote:I thought Kuminga looked less wild than I thought he would. Still inefficient, but those spectacular plays definitely came more than 1 out of 10 times. He's active out there which is a good sign, still makes a lot of mistakes but a lot of rooks will/do.

I do think once the season starts he's going to be pulled very quickly if he tries a lot of crazy stuff and that Moody will get a lot more minutes early on, but he's in a good place to "settle in". I'd rather have a situation of calming someone down (Kuminga) than trying to hype them up (Wiseman).


(Warrior fan here).

Most people watching summer league thought Kuminga "looked" more impressive than Moody as an overall prospect.

Moody was obviously a lot more consistent and under control. He was a guy who obviously was letting the game come to him. But his upside isn't all that great IMO. He has potential as a 2 way player and excellent shooter, but he's not overly big (though he does have long arms) or athletic. He doesn't scream lockdown defender and he's not creative or explosive with the dribble. He's a guy with a high probability of being a rotation player in the league for 10+ years, but I don't envision all-star. Probably a Wes Matthews in his prime is around his peak.

What stood out about Kuminga was that he was aggressive and very physical. He was initiating and making things happen. He was the very opposite of passive. He was playing physically and finishing at the basket THROUGH CONTACT as an 18 year old vs. other pros. He wasn't efficient shooting the ball, but he also had a Steph Curry like usage rate, which he obviously isn't going to have in the regular season as a rookie on a team that actually has Curry. He also displayed much better passing ability than he was originally given credit for and also ability as a lockdown defender that I don't think Moody does.

He's rough around the edges and there are a lot of what ifs with him, just as there are with most all guys outside the top 5. Still displayed more than enough ability as an 18 year old to justify his selection in the middle of the lottery, IMO.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#420 » by zaymon » Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:34 am

dc wrote:
SOUL wrote:I thought Kuminga looked less wild than I thought he would. Still inefficient, but those spectacular plays definitely came more than 1 out of 10 times. He's active out there which is a good sign, still makes a lot of mistakes but a lot of rooks will/do.

I do think once the season starts he's going to be pulled very quickly if he tries a lot of crazy stuff and that Moody will get a lot more minutes early on, but he's in a good place to "settle in". I'd rather have a situation of calming someone down (Kuminga) than trying to hype them up (Wiseman).


(Warrior fan here).

Most people watching summer league thought Kuminga "looked" more impressive than Moody as an overall prospect.

Moody was obviously a lot more consistent and under control. He was a guy who obviously was letting the game come to him. But his upside isn't all that great IMO. He has potential as a 2 way player and excellent shooter, but he's not overly big (though he does have long arms) or athletic. He doesn't scream lockdown defender and he's not creative or explosive with the dribble. He's a guy with a high probability of being a rotation player in the league for 10+ years, but I don't envision all-star. Probably a Wes Matthews in his prime is around his peak.

What stood out about Kuminga was that he was aggressive and very physical. He was initiating and making things happen. He was the very opposite of passive. He was playing physically and finishing at the basket THROUGH CONTACT as an 18 year old vs. other pros. He wasn't efficient shooting the ball, but he also had a Steph Curry like usage rate, which he obviously isn't going to have in the regular season as a rookie on a team that actually has Curry. He also displayed much better passing ability than he was originally given credit for and also ability as a lockdown defender that I don't think Moody does.

He's rough around the edges and there are a lot of what ifs with him, just as there are with most all guys outside the top 5. Still displayed more than enough ability as an 18 year old to justify his selection in the middle of the lottery, IMO.


He had to finish tough looks through contact becouse he couldnt generate easy looks. I only watched highlights but how many open looks he created in half court offense ? 3 ? Most of his baskets were in transition. He was able to be physical becouse he has grown mans body unlike most of his competition.
It will be hard for him to carve a role in your rotation. He cant shoot, he loses the ball a lot. He will propably lose a lot of value when the season begins.
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