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WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER

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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#441 » by Def Swami » Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:22 pm

Kuminga looked exactly like he did in the G League. So if you were a fan of what he looked like in the G League, then you probably came away feeling good about him after summer league. If you weren't a fan to begin with, you're not going to walk away impressed.

I thought a lot of his warts were the same. He doesn't know how to play. He has little glimpses of brilliance compounded by several more mistakes, bad shots, bad passes, missed passes, missed defensive assignments. He's so Jeff Green right now.

I actually came away more impressed with Moody. Moody is going to play for them and contribute to winning sooner than Kuminga. I wasn't tripping off Kuminga at all. But Moody vs. Wagner was always in the back of my mind watching Summer League. I get why the Magic took Wagner. Moody and Wagner are both young, good defenders, and don't need the ball to make an impact, but I thought Moody had the more consistent, efficient shooting stroke between the two of them.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#442 » by PrimeThyme » Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:45 pm

I liked what I saw from Kuminga. More than I expected to. Part of it was he just had such a physicality advantage over the matchups he saw in SL versus the guys he faced in the G-league && was just bullying people.

I think if a team with alpha scorers like GS could get him to commit to a defined role as a PnR man and lob threat going towards the basket he could be very useful early on. Getting him to commit to that will be the challenge. GS is probably more equipped than most other teams to do it with their roster and reputation.

I'd still rather have Wagner, && I think it will become more evident why as the season starts and real basketball begins.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#443 » by dc » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:18 pm

Magic_Kingdom wrote:I don't think you can look at an 18-year-old's efficiency rating in his first summer league and use that as a tool to judge how good he will be. It will be a few years before he has the ball in his hands in a real NBA game as much as he did in SL where he was the best player on the team.


I agree. Summer League is an eye test. Wanna know the best example of that?

In 5 games at the 2009 Summer League, 21 year old Steph Curry shot a sizzling 25-73 FG (34%). He shot 34% vs. summer league scrubs. Worse than Jonathan Kuminga! And his game revolves around shooting the ball but he wasn't very efficient at it. If he can only shoot 34% in SL, how the hell is he ever going to be make it in the league?

Meanwhile, his SL teammate Anthony Randolph looked like a future MVP.

Regardless of all that, most observers watching the games felt that Curry looked pretty good in his SL action and that he had the makings of a very good player. Nobody was thinking future MVP or all time great, but they still thought he'd be pretty good. They liked what they saw, despite his dismal shooting %.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#444 » by dc » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:49 pm

Def Swami wrote:I actually came away more impressed with Moody. Moody is going to play for them and contribute to winning sooner than Kuminga. I wasn't tripping off Kuminga at all. But Moody vs. Wagner was always in the back of my mind watching Summer League. I get why the Magic took Wagner. Moody and Wagner are both young, good defenders, and don't need the ball to make an impact, but I thought Moody had the more consistent, efficient shooting stroke between the two of them.


I don't think Moody has enough upside to warrant a selection at #8 (unless maybe it was a weak draft like last year). At #14, he's good value in a deep draft. He's a safe choice who should be a long time rotation player in the league, but there isn't anything about him telling me he's going to be something special. In the back of my mind, I get the feeling the Warriors should've taken Trey Murphy.

Wagner needs to work on his shot, which was pretty much known about him, but he has the physical upsides that better qualify him as a Top 10 pick.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#445 » by basketballRob » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:02 pm

I like Franz way better than Moody. He's a better athlete, taking the ball to the hole, defender, has better size, and I think he'll end up shooting just as well.




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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#446 » by Skybox » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:35 pm

Summer League and G-League (to a slightly lesser extent) is basically AAU compared to the NBA. It will be a whole different world when Steve Kerr, Steph, Klay, and Draymond walk in the room. Unless Kuminga is a complete psychopath narcissist, he's going to have an amazing chance to develop his all-around game without being asked to go crazy offensively and develop (or continue with) bad, inefficient habits. GSW did amazing with 8 and 14...even though they still may ship them out for a vet.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#447 » by dc » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:44 pm

Skybox wrote: GSW did amazing with 8 and 14...even though they still may ship them out for a vet.


That was their primary intent, but it was a seller's market for established vet players and the asking prices were sky high. With the FA market looking limited next year, that'll probably continue being the case.

If the Warriors could've turned their 2 picks into Pascal Siakim, they'd have done it in a second, but Toronto was either not putting him up for sale or asking for a motherlode. Similar thing obviously with Ben Simmons. Morey was literally asking for 5 assets or more in return for Simmons.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#448 » by basketballRob » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:46 pm

dc wrote:
Skybox wrote: GSW did amazing with 8 and 14...even though they still may ship them out for a vet.


That was their primary intent, but it was a seller's market for established vet players and the asking prices were sky high. With the FA market looking limited next year, that'll probably continue being the case.

If the Warriors could've turned their 2 picks into Pascal Siakim, they'd have done it in a second, but Toronto was either not putting him up for sale or asking for a motherlode. Similar thing obviously with Ben Simmons. Morey was literally asking for 5 assets or more in return for Simmons.
They would've had to include Wiggins to make the contracts match.

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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#449 » by Skybox » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:50 pm

dc wrote:
Skybox wrote: GSW did amazing with 8 and 14...even though they still may ship them out for a vet.


That was their primary intent, but it was a seller's market for established vet players and the asking prices were sky high. With the FA market looking limited next year, that'll probably continue being the case.

If the Warriors could've turned their 2 picks into Pascal Siakim, they'd have done it in a second, but Toronto was either not putting him up for sale or asking for a motherlode. Similar thing obviously with Ben Simmons. Morey was literally asking for 5 assets or more in return for Simmons.


Understood. They can keep them and I think they'll both contribute this year, not in 3 years. GSW has the luxury of being able to limit their roles while they develop. IF they're both coachable and have that "Hungry but Humble" gene, GSW will be solid even if they don't nab another superstar. Same with Wiseman-he's been disappointing but that doesn't make him a bust (yet). The beauty of their roster is that those 3 young studs are battling to be the 4th best player on a great team. None will be asked to carry anything. At least one of them will show some star quality, likely Kuminga, IMO. I'm rooting for them to win the West and play ORL in the finals.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#450 » by drsd » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:24 am

basketballRob wrote:I like Franz way better than Moody. He's a better athlete, taking the ball to the hole, defender, has better size, and I think he'll end up shooting just as well.


A 3D combo wing vs. a 3D combo forward. What I liked about Moody is his ridiculous length on jump shot roles. As a SG, he has an unblock able jump-shot. hat I like about Wagner is that is is a more versatile prospect. And whereas both players project to be excellent team defenders, Wagner might emerge as a better man-defender.

In the end I was happy with Wagner over Moody simply because Orlando go Suggs at 5. Wagner is a better roster fit by a long margin (Orlando is already overloaded with guards).


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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#451 » by tiderulz » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:30 pm

drsd wrote:
basketballRob wrote:I like Franz way better than Moody. He's a better athlete, taking the ball to the hole, defender, has better size, and I think he'll end up shooting just as well.


A 3D combo wing vs. a 3D combo forward. What I liked about Moody is his ridiculous length on jump shot roles. As a SG, he has an unblock able jump-shot. hat I like about Wagner is that is is a more versatile prospect. And whereas both players project to be excellent team defenders, Wagner might emerge as a better man-defender.

In the end I was happy with Wagner over Moody simply because Orlando go Suggs at 5. Wagner is a better roster fit by a long margin (Orlando is already overloaded with guards).


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but are any of them really good? or project better than Moody?

2nd year players in the Summer League shouldnt have as many issues as Cole and RJ did.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#452 » by yoyojw17 » Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:36 pm

I think Franz was just easy to over look because when we look at potential ... we initially look at what players can do and what they can't do.... and say..."If they succeed in these can'ts they would be an X player".... for franz it was harder to play those scenarios cuz "sadly" he is at least good at pretty much every aspect of the game. NOW... we have to look at... "Which of those good can become ?" to figure out his trajectory!

I believe in his shooting, defense and playmaking in the future.... but only time will tell! :-)
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#453 » by basketballRob » Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:13 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:I think Franz was just easy to over look because when we look at potential ... we initially look at what players can do and what they can't do.... and say..."If they succeed in these can'ts they would be an X player".... for franz it was harder to play those scenarios cuz "sadly" he is at least good at pretty much every aspect of the game. NOW... we have to look at... "Which of those good can become ?" to figure out his trajectory!

I believe in his shooting, defense and playmaking in the future.... but only time will tell! :-)
Evan Mobley shot worse than Franz and he's a couple months older. I just don't think summer league was a good place for them.

I also believe that they will be playing Franz at the 3.

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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#454 » by drsd » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:42 am

tiderulz wrote:but are any of them really good? or project better than Moody?

2nd year players in the Summer League shouldnt have as many issues as Cole and RJ did.


Are you asking if I project Moody to be "better" than Wagner?

It could go either way with me, and I would lean towards Moody as having a better statistical career given his unblockable jumper, and Wagner being on better teams as a "glue guy" (meaning Wagner will be better in intangibles).


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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#455 » by drsd » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:45 am

basketballRob wrote:I also believe that they will be playing Franz at the 3.


In time, yes he should be the primary backup SF. But this year, there are so many guards that the primary SF minutes go too Ross. That only leaves PF minutes for F-Wagner.

I would think that the starting-night roster this year and next could have up to 7 different Magicians; change is coming.


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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#456 » by tiderulz » Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:45 pm

drsd wrote:
tiderulz wrote:but are any of them really good? or project better than Moody?

2nd year players in the Summer League shouldnt have as many issues as Cole and RJ did.


Are you asking if I project Moody to be "better" than Wagner?

It could go either way with me, and I would lean towards Moody as having a better statistical career given his unblockable jumper, and Wagner being on better teams as a "glue guy" (meaning Wagner will be better in intangibles).


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no, sorry. I underlined the statement that "Orlando is already overloaded with guards". I meant does Moody project better than any of the guards on the roster. and hence seeing Cole and RJ have issues as 2nd year players in SL.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#457 » by drsd » Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:01 pm

tiderulz wrote:no, sorry. I underlined the statement that "Orlando is already overloaded with guards". I meant does Moody project better than any of the guards on the roster. and hence seeing Cole and RJ have issues as 2nd year players in SL.




Hampton is a question mark for me. On several levels. What is his upside? What is his role? What offensive and defensive sets play to his strengths?

For Anthony, I have no questions: he will develop to be a competent 15 mpg back-up PG that, if healthy, will have a good 7-year career.

So: is Moody more than that? For Anthony: no. But they would never compete for roster time and it would be fine to have Moody alongside Anthony? For Hampton, I have no idea. Hampton is such an unknown, can we really evaluate him to Moody? But they certainly would compete for minutes.

I project Moody as a elite backup SG. i.e. Ross if Ross could play defense. Now back to Wagner: is Wagner a better or worse fit next to Anthony and Hampton compared to Moody? Yes. And thus, I love Wagner as the pick at 8. The moment the Magic selected Suggs, Moody slide WAY down my draft board. In a redraft, I like Wagner over Mr. trade-down. Probably the next players taken behind Wagner that I have interest in are Şengün, Murphy and Jones. I would not want to trade down for those guys and would rather see how Wagner develops.

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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#458 » by Skybox » Wed Sep 1, 2021 10:27 am

Just read an article questioning ORL drafting “another” 4 in Franz…I think he’ll primarily be a 3. He can move his feet on D and he can put the ball on the floor-he’s not a4 just because he’s tall. Positional length is what WeHam loves. Isaac did great at 3 because he defends the perimeter at an elite level, the two together will be a very tough defensive set…hopefully, at least one will score. TRoss will probably start the season there, Hampton is undersized, but I see Chuma, Franz, and Isaac as interchangeable at 3 & 4.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#459 » by Skybox » Wed Sep 1, 2021 10:33 am

Skybox wrote:Just read an article questioning ORL drafting “another” 4 in Franz…I think he’ll primarily be a 3. He can move his feet on D and he can put the ball on the floor-he’s not a4 just because he’s tall. Positional length is what WeHam loves. Isaac did great at 3 because he defends the perimeter at an elite level, the two together will be a very tough defensive set…hopefully, at least one will score. TRoss will probably start the season there, Hampton is undersized, but I see Chuma, Franz, and Isaac as interchangeable at 3 & 4.


Having said that, I don’t know why we didn’t take a flyer at 33 on a more traditional scoring SF…BJ Boston, for example. No risk tryout on a guy (like him) that either shows out in SL and/or training camp or goes to Lakeland (or China). Or some kind of true shooter like Weiskamp…again, 2rp is just a tryout.
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Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#460 » by pepe1991 » Wed Sep 1, 2021 11:02 am

Skybox wrote:Just read an article questioning ORL drafting “another” 4 in Franz…I think he’ll primarily be a 3. He can move his feet on D and he can put the ball on the floor-he’s not a4 just because he’s tall. Positional length is what WeHam loves. Isaac did great at 3 because he defends the perimeter at an elite level, the two together will be a very tough defensive set…hopefully, at least one will score. TRoss will probably start the season there, Hampton is undersized, but I see Chuma, Franz, and Isaac as interchangeable at 3 & 4.



Isaac did great at 3 because he defends the perimeter at an elite level, the two together will be a very tough defensive set


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That massive 11 min in 3 years that he played SF :lol:

No, Isaac never played SF especially not on defense.
Isaac was secundary, sometimes primary weak side shotblocker/rim protector.
Even in playoffs vs Raptors, he was more on Siakam than Leonard for same reasons.

Issue is offensive end with Wagner and 2 PFs.
Wagner won't take anybody off the dribble, he couldn't even do that at college, neither could Isaac and that lack of skill translated into nba. They are too tall, too clumsy with ball and way too poor of a shooters to dust somebody off with pump fake and beat them off the dribble, or shake them off with some crossover or use dribble pullups as realistic offensive option.


Okeke is most "SFish" among them because again, mostly due skills he does not have. He is very perimeter oriented, mostly because he can't get to rim, nor draw any fouls. He is also 6'8 with shoes at most and he is very poor rebounder to be primarly PF.
But he also adds to same existing offensive issue to Wagner & Isaac. Inability to generate any offense by himeslf,ballhandling that won't lead him anywhere.

For time being, it doesn't matter on 25 wins team who is PF or SF because at the end of a night goal is same- lose. But going forward it's no secret , in hope to make playoffs or win more than 1 game in first round adding versitale scoring wing is must have.

Wagner draft decision to me, made no sense whatsoever. Especially because simlar type of players fell out of lottery.


This roster, by construction on it's own (regardless of tanking aspirations) makes as little logical seanse as one with Aminu, Gordon, Isaac. Bunch of overlapping skills that don't compliment each other and hurt offense.
But again, it's John Hammond as GM, i don't expect any roster made by him to make any sense. 14 years and 14 failed seasons to make sense of team that he runs. At least he is consistent.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
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