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Skybox wrote:Just read an article questioning ORL drafting “another” 4 in Franz…I think he’ll primarily be a 3. He can move his feet on D and he can put the ball on the floor-he’s not a4 just because he’s tall. Positional length is what WeHam loves. Isaac did great at 3 because he defends the perimeter at an elite level, the two together will be a very tough defensive set…hopefully, at least one will score. TRoss will probably start the season there, Hampton is undersized, but I see Chuma, Franz, and Isaac as interchangeable at 3 & 4.

can he though? he didnt look good doing it in SL and he will face much tougher defense once the league starts.

Skybox wrote:

Skybox wrote:Just read an article questioning ORL drafting “another” 4 in Franz…I think he’ll primarily be a 3. He can move his feet on D and he can put the ball on the floor-he’s not a4 just because he’s tall. Positional length is what WeHam loves. Isaac did great at 3 because he defends the perimeter at an elite level, the two together will be a very tough defensive set…hopefully, at least one will score. TRoss will probably start the season there, Hampton is undersized, but I see Chuma, Franz, and Isaac as interchangeable at 3 & 4.

Having said that, I don’t know why we didn’t take a flyer at 33 on a more traditional scoring SF…BJ Boston, for example. No risk tryout on a guy (like him) that either shows out in SL and/or training camp or goes to Lakeland (or China). Or some kind of true shooter like Weiskamp…again, 2rp is just a tryout.

did you just quote yourself?

all fun. But yes, just another example of how our front office doesnt make the best use of our 2nd round picks. Boston or even Wieskamp would have been worth a flyer on.

That massive 11 min in 3 years that he played SF

No, Isaac never played SF especially not on defense.
Isaac was secundary, sometimes primary weak side shotblocker/rim protector.
Even in playoffs vs Raptors, he was more on Siakam than Leonard for same reasons.

Kind of bored with your horses**t laser-focused stats...how, exactly is "he was playing PF this minute" actually determined in an objective way? 2,3, and 4 have been so blurred in the last few years with the perimeter game becoming so prevalent. I think it must come down to who is taller...seriously, tell me how the robot decided who was the PF.

One REAL indicator that's often pointed at is "You position is determined by who you defend"...Isaac is the defensive unicorn of the league...he was leading the league in blocks, but for every block at the rim, he had a block at the 3pt line or a deflected pass on the perimeter. For all of his elite rim-protection, it's not like he camps out down there and dares bigs to come in.

One of the forwards (at least) has to spread the floor. One (at least) needs to initiate offense and/or put it on the floor. Labeling them is obsolete. I know we don't have one that has shown either of those abilities, but that doesn't change Isaac's title. He's whatever you need defensively. If Okeke (and/or Franz) can knock down 3's over 37% this year, make smart passes, and we have two guards that can get to the rim and finish or kick, we'll have something to build on. Having two bigger guards who can really handle also lessens the need for a traditional SF. Position-less is a real thing. You need some rim-defense, you need at least a couple of capable ball-handlers, everybody should be able to move the ball at least a bit, shooting from 3 or more spots, and ability to defend pick and roll (physical guards that can fight through picks is key). SG/SF is an issue because of size matchups on defense, but SF/PF is a much less-defined thing for probably 25 teams in 2021.

Skybox wrote:That massive 11 min in 3 years that he played SF

No, Isaac never played SF especially not on defense.
Isaac was secundary, sometimes primary weak side shotblocker/rim protector.
Even in playoffs vs Raptors, he was more on Siakam than Leonard for same reasons.

Kind of bored with your horses**t laser-focused stats...how, exactly is "he was playing PF this minute" actually determined in an objective way? 2,3, and 4 have been so blurred in the last few years with the perimeter game becoming so prevalent. I think it must come down to who is taller...seriously, tell me how the robot decided who was the PF.

One REAL indicator that's often pointed at is "You position is determined by who you defend"...Isaac is the defensive unicorn of the league...he was leading the league in blocks, but for every block at the rim, he had a block at the 3pt line or a deflected pass on the perimeter. For all of his elite rim-protection, it's not like he camps out down there and dares bigs to come in.

One of the forwards (at least) has to spread the floor. One (at least) needs to initiate offense and/or put it on the floor. Labeling them is obsolete. I know we don't have one that has shown either of those abilities, but that doesn't change Isaac's title. He's whatever you need defensively. If Okeke (and/or Franz) can knock down 3's over 37% this year, make smart passes, and we have two guards that can get to the rim and finish or kick, we'll have something to build on. Having two bigger guards who can really handle also lessens the need for a traditional SF. Position-less is a real thing. You need some rim-defense, you need at least a couple of capable ball-handlers, everybody should be able to move the ball at least a bit, shooting from 3 or more spots, and ability to defend pick and roll (physical guards that can fight through picks is key). SG/SF is an issue because of size matchups on defense, but SF/PF is a much less-defined thing for probably 25 teams in 2021.

people need to stop saying that. there are other players that do what he does. he is not some unicorn (and personally that phrase needs to go away, its overused)

tiderulz wrote:

Skybox wrote:That massive 11 min in 3 years that he played SF

No, Isaac never played SF especially not on defense.
Isaac was secundary, sometimes primary weak side shotblocker/rim protector.
Even in playoffs vs Raptors, he was more on Siakam than Leonard for same reasons.

Kind of bored with your horses**t laser-focused stats...how, exactly is "he was playing PF this minute" actually determined in an objective way? 2,3, and 4 have been so blurred in the last few years with the perimeter game becoming so prevalent. I think it must come down to who is taller...seriously, tell me how the robot decided who was the PF.

One REAL indicator that's often pointed at is "You position is determined by who you defend"...Isaac is the defensive unicorn of the league...he was leading the league in blocks, but for every block at the rim, he had a block at the 3pt line or a deflected pass on the perimeter. For all of his elite rim-protection, it's not like he camps out down there and dares bigs to come in.

One of the forwards (at least) has to spread the floor. One (at least) needs to initiate offense and/or put it on the floor. Labeling them is obsolete. I know we don't have one that has shown either of those abilities, but that doesn't change Isaac's title. He's whatever you need defensively. If Okeke (and/or Franz) can knock down 3's over 37% this year, make smart passes, and we have two guards that can get to the rim and finish or kick, we'll have something to build on. Having two bigger guards who can really handle also lessens the need for a traditional SF. Position-less is a real thing. You need some rim-defense, you need at least a couple of capable ball-handlers, everybody should be able to move the ball at least a bit, shooting from 3 or more spots, and ability to defend pick and roll (physical guards that can fight through picks is key). SG/SF is an issue because of size matchups on defense, but SF/PF is a much less-defined thing for probably 25 teams in 2021.

people need to stop saying that. there are other players that do what he does. he is not some unicorn (and personally that phrase needs to go away, its overused)

I think you might have a short memory. Who else (I only think of Giannis?) has his defensive tools? He (when he can walk) was among the very elite shot blockers but also among the steals leaders (with a bunch of PG's)...if you watch enough games, you see his defensive impact is even beyond the numbers because of his perimeter play. The dude is SO long and his hands are everywhere -in the passing lanes, deterring shots - I don't remember anyone having his kind of defensive versatility...watch some of his block highlights and he's actually swiping at the ball as soon as the other big picks up his dribble and then proceeds to block the shot- if the guy ever gets it off.

If he returns to 100% and adds even a tiny bit of offense, he's special.

Skybox wrote:

tiderulz wrote:

Skybox wrote:That massive 11 min in 3 years that he played SF

No, Isaac never played SF especially not on defense.
Isaac was secundary, sometimes primary weak side shotblocker/rim protector.
Even in playoffs vs Raptors, he was more on Siakam than Leonard for same reasons.

Kind of bored with your horses**t laser-focused stats...how, exactly is "he was playing PF this minute" actually determined in an objective way? 2,3, and 4 have been so blurred in the last few years with the perimeter game becoming so prevalent. I think it must come down to who is taller...seriously, tell me how the robot decided who was the PF.

One REAL indicator that's often pointed at is "You position is determined by who you defend"...Isaac is the defensive unicorn of the league...he was leading the league in blocks, but for every block at the rim, he had a block at the 3pt line or a deflected pass on the perimeter. For all of his elite rim-protection, it's not like he camps out down there and dares bigs to come in.

One of the forwards (at least) has to spread the floor. One (at least) needs to initiate offense and/or put it on the floor. Labeling them is obsolete. I know we don't have one that has shown either of those abilities, but that doesn't change Isaac's title. He's whatever you need defensively. If Okeke (and/or Franz) can knock down 3's over 37% this year, make smart passes, and we have two guards that can get to the rim and finish or kick, we'll have something to build on. Having two bigger guards who can really handle also lessens the need for a traditional SF. Position-less is a real thing. You need some rim-defense, you need at least a couple of capable ball-handlers, everybody should be able to move the ball at least a bit, shooting from 3 or more spots, and ability to defend pick and roll (physical guards that can fight through picks is key). SG/SF is an issue because of size matchups on defense, but SF/PF is a much less-defined thing for probably 25 teams in 2021.

people need to stop saying that. there are other players that do what he does. he is not some unicorn (and personally that phrase needs to go away, its overused)

I think you might have a short memory. Who else (I only think of Giannis?) has his defensive tools? He (when he can walk) was among the very elite shot blockers but also among the steals leaders (with a bunch of PG's)...if you watch enough games, you see his defensive impact is even beyond the numbers because of his perimeter play. The dude is SO long and his hands are everywhere -in the passing lanes, deterring shots - I don't remember anyone having his kind of defensive versatility...watch some of his block highlights and he's actually swiping at the ball as soon as the other big picks up his dribble and then proceeds to block the shot- if the guy ever gets it off.

If he returns to 100% and adds even a tiny bit of offense, he's special.

Giannis...Gobert...AD....Draymond (once upon a time)...Simmons...Bam...

all players that can block, can switch off onto wing players.

I don't think any but Giannis and maybe Simmons match him all over the court and Simmons isn't an equivalent rim protector. Gobert is a pure center and elite rim protector-he can switch out and stop a guy but not as disruptive overall, IMO. Gobert has immense impact on the game, just looks a little different than Isaac's...I don't consider the others at the same level as Isaac's overall defensive impact...to be fair, it's based on a very small sample size of him peaking between injuries. They're all very good, I just think he and Giannis are the most versatile and disruptive defenders from rim out to the 3pt line. He will be perennial DPOY contender if he's stays healthy.

Some of you are way too concerned with summer league results.

Blue_and_Whte wrote:Some of you are way too concerned with summer league results.

I'm just bored of waiting to the Pre-season camp.

Another month of nothing,


..

drsd wrote:

Blue_and_Whte wrote:Some of you are way too concerned with summer league results.

I'm just bored of waiting to the Pre-season camp.

Another month of nothing,


..

Me too. Circular conversations this point of the year.

Blue_and_Whte wrote:Me too. Circular conversations this point of the year.

What are you predicting for F-Wagner's rookie year?

For me, as the Magic lack forward depth, I think he will get a lot of minutes from game-1. I expect at least 20 mpg over the first 20 games. What I am hoping for is a clear 30%+ three-ball over those first 20 games, as it will bode well for his development over the season.

My prediction for his rookie season: F-Wagner will go 7/1/3 on an eFG% of 45%. He will log an average of 24 mpg and have 3 starts and be the only player to play in all 82 games.

..

drsd wrote:

Blue_and_Whte wrote:Me too. Circular conversations this point of the year.

What are you predicting for F-Wagner's rookie year?

For me, as the Magic lack forward depth, I think he will get a lot of minutes from game-1. I expect at least 20 mpg over the first 20 games. What I am hoping for is a clear 30%+ three-ball over those first 20 games, as it will bode well for his development over the season.

My prediction for his rookie season: F-Wagner will go 7/1/3 on an eFG% of 45%. He will log an average of 24 mpg and have 3 starts and be the only player to play in all 82 games.

..

Franz starts the year out slow averaging 5/2/1 thru the all star break but the 2nd half he gains confidence and goes 11/3/2 on improved efficiency

Franz prediction. He averages 2 steals per game.

Damn BMP! 2 Steals a game average! Isn't that somewhat of a lofty goal? I would understand if you said that about Suggs, but I'd probably STILL question it.

Wagner being picked 1 selection after Kuminga is gonna be one of those sad Magic stories.

I was praying so hard that Golden State wouldn't pick Kuminga. I do think Franz can have a long career tho and will probably be a much better defender.

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I'm trying to do my best to not dislike Franz but it's kinda difficult.
His brother seems to be much more confident and he actually understands his limitations.
Let's see. I know he's a rookie and I'm a positive guy but I do not like what I've seen so far from him

Horcy wrote:I'm trying to do my best to not dislike Franz but it's kinda difficult.
His brother seems to be much more confident and he actually understands his limitations.
Let's see. I know he's a rookie and I'm a positive guy but I do not like what I've seen so far from him

Wagner NBA game count:
Frantz - 1
Moe - 134 + preason games from the last 3 years

calm down.

Franz is a really good basketball player.

You hear the phrase “he knows how to play” a lot and in his case it’s really accurate.

Little things that young guys just don’t typically do, he already does. He understands when and where to rotate defensively. He knows where the extra pass is and makes it. He has timing and feel as a cutter.

What he lacks right now is a combination of experience, assertiveness and confidence offensively. He has a role player mentality on offense. He’s naturally more of a “let the game happen around me” type of player than he is “I’m going to make my impact felt” type of guy.

On one hand, he’s rarely going to get outside of himself with turnovers and bad shots.

On the other hand, you realistically probably want more than that out of a top 8 pick.

I very much expect the Magic to play better when he’s on the floor that off the floor this year because he’s a guy who doesn’t mess up a lot, but you wonder how much upside their really is if he doesn’t develop a more aggressive mentality.

Horcy wrote:I'm trying to do my best to not dislike Franz but it's kinda difficult.
His brother seems to be much more confident and he actually understands his limitations.
Let's see. I know he's a rookie and I'm a positive guy but I do not like what I've seen so far from him

how about this for a positive?

Franz was the only starter with a positive +/-, at +5.