ImageImageImageImage

WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER

Moderators: ChosenSavior, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, Knightro, SOUL, UCF, Def Swami

User avatar
RookieStar
RealGM
Posts: 13,738
And1: 3,235
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
 

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#701 » by RookieStar » Wed Nov 3, 2021 8:04 pm

zaymon wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
zaymon wrote:Franz would be so good for GSW. They became really awful at drafting it seems. Gone away from high iq players who brought them championships


You probably aren't one of us who thinks GSW drafted guys who they will trade later on or even next season just to extend their championship window with Klay Steph and Draymond. They need vets for that role not rookies. Thus they have no need to really develop Wiseman, Wagner, Kuminga, Moody.. just show flashes and sucker a team to trade for them with their capable vets.

GSW isn't ready to push the reset button. I think they feel they have 3 more years at championship aspirations. I mean look at the west this early on. Who is dominating? You can say its them as of now.

Thus, they aren't drafting high IQ players to develop and think future. They are drafting trade baits.


IIf you want to get value you trade picks not players. They will get penny on the dollar.


Normally that's true. That's why we heard a lot of rumors that Wiseman plus picks were on the table for a trade before the draft. Sadly, nothing came out of them. Thus they might have been forced to just get the "rawest most upside" players they can to maximize their trade value? who knows..

But my point and stand is that GSW isn't caring right now to develop players, they are going all in and trying to surround their stars with as much help as they can to maximize the amount of rings they can bring to the team before they fall off.
User avatar
zaymon
Analyst
Posts: 3,409
And1: 1,905
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#702 » by zaymon » Wed Nov 3, 2021 8:16 pm

RookieStar wrote:
zaymon wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
You probably aren't one of us who thinks GSW drafted guys who they will trade later on or even next season just to extend their championship window with Klay Steph and Draymond. They need vets for that role not rookies. Thus they have no need to really develop Wiseman, Wagner, Kuminga, Moody.. just show flashes and sucker a team to trade for them with their capable vets.

GSW isn't ready to push the reset button. I think they feel they have 3 more years at championship aspirations. I mean look at the west this early on. Who is dominating? You can say its them as of now.

Thus, they aren't drafting high IQ players to develop and think future. They are drafting trade baits.


IIf you want to get value you trade picks not players. They will get penny on the dollar.


Normally that's true. That's why we heard a lot of rumors that Wiseman plus picks were on the table for a trade before the draft. Sadly, nothing came out of them. Thus they might have been forced to just get the "rawest most upside" players they can to maximize their trade value? who knows..

But my point and stand is that GSW isn't caring right now to develop players, they are going all in and trying to surround their stars with as much help as they can to maximize the amount of rings they can bring to the team before they fall off.


I think they care about developing players becouse they changed whole of their development staff. Aside from that, if you believe they dont want to develop players while they draft the rawest prospects ?!?! Do you see the flaw in logic ? You either draft good players to trade or raw players to develop...
Goodbye Vucevic, welcome lotttery picks !!!
Happysad.
User avatar
RookieStar
RealGM
Posts: 13,738
And1: 3,235
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
 

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#703 » by RookieStar » Wed Nov 3, 2021 8:28 pm

zaymon wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
zaymon wrote:
IIf you want to get value you trade picks not players. They will get penny on the dollar.


Normally that's true. That's why we heard a lot of rumors that Wiseman plus picks were on the table for a trade before the draft. Sadly, nothing came out of them. Thus they might have been forced to just get the "rawest most upside" players they can to maximize their trade value? who knows..

But my point and stand is that GSW isn't caring right now to develop players, they are going all in and trying to surround their stars with as much help as they can to maximize the amount of rings they can bring to the team before they fall off.


I think they care about developing players becouse they changed whole of their development staff. Aside from that, if you believe they dont want to develop players while they draft the rawest prospects ?!?! Do you see the flaw in logic ? You either draft good players to trade or raw players to develop...


Don't get me wrong, no team would of course like to " put rust" on their young players. What Im talking about is right now, their goal is more about extending their championship window over developing their high pick rookies. And what is the best way to develop rookies? Isn't it giving them playing time, letting them play through mistakes and etc etc? Do you think GSW management would do that when Curry,Green and soon to be Klay is fighting for a championship season right now? And if they think their missing piece is say... Gobert, Ayton, Randle, etc ( not saying they are on the market )they will do their utmost to trade for them using their most valuable asset which are high picks that are raw and unproven. ( unless they still have draft picks from tanking teams )
User avatar
fendilim
RealGM
Posts: 28,299
And1: 4,034
Joined: Jun 11, 2002
Location: 孫悟空, 时间太?!

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#704 » by fendilim » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:10 am

Image
J the Drafter
Starter
Posts: 2,077
And1: 240
Joined: Sep 17, 2009

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#705 » by J the Drafter » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:09 pm

RookieStar wrote:
And what is the best way to develop rookies? Isn't it giving them playing time, letting them play through mistakes and etc etc?


:-? I thought the best way to develop players was to guide their practice to help them develop the skills they need. Game experience is great, but it’s not where players build muscle memory or physical strength and conditioning.
Remember when Kobe elbowed Jameer in the chin so hard Jameer was knocked down and sent skidding across the floor?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.*

*Futurama
basketballRob
RealGM
Posts: 15,802
And1: 6,306
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#706 » by basketballRob » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:18 pm

J the Drafter wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
And what is the best way to develop rookies? Isn't it giving them playing time, letting them play through mistakes and etc etc?


:-? I thought the best way to develop players was to guide their practice to help them develop the skills they need. Game experience is great, but it’s not where players build muscle memory or physical strength and conditioning.
I've heard Weltman say a couple of times that game experience was the best way to learn.

I've also seen this over the years. Players that get more game minutes appear to develop faster.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app
AaronB
Freshman
Posts: 82
And1: 42
Joined: Sep 28, 2021

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#707 » by AaronB » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:40 pm

basketballRob wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
And what is the best way to develop rookies? Isn't it giving them playing time, letting them play through mistakes and etc etc?


:-? I thought the best way to develop players was to guide their practice to help them develop the skills they need. Game experience is great, but it’s not where players build muscle memory or physical strength and conditioning.
I've heard Weltman say a couple of times that game experience was the best way to learn.

I've also seen this over the years. Players that get more game minutes appear to develop faster.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


It is not a game OR practice, but rather game AND practice.

Practice develops confidence which should show up in games. Games provide feedback on what to improve.

In tennis we say:

Practice is like homework
Informal matches are like practice tests
Official games are like actual tests

All are needed if one wants to learn a subject unless they are a polymath.
User avatar
RookieStar
RealGM
Posts: 13,738
And1: 3,235
Joined: Jul 01, 2009
 

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#708 » by RookieStar » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:15 pm

J the Drafter wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
And what is the best way to develop rookies? Isn't it giving them playing time, letting them play through mistakes and etc etc?


:-? I thought the best way to develop players was to guide their practice to help them develop the skills they need. Game experience is great, but it’s not where players build muscle memory or physical strength and conditioning.


Practice is needed of course but you want development? Throw the kids into the fire. I mean, look at new assembled teams whether in college or NBA. They can have all the practice they want, play s much scrimmage as they can handle, but at the end of the day, what makes them "gel" is playing in official games as a team against an opponent.
Optimus_Steel
RealGM
Posts: 33,087
And1: 8,874
Joined: Sep 16, 2003
Location: Winter Garden, FL
   

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#709 » by Optimus_Steel » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:26 pm

Did I read that right- 6 steals for Franz vs Bkn? Wow. He just keeps impressing.
aka: prorl
User avatar
fendilim
RealGM
Posts: 28,299
And1: 4,034
Joined: Jun 11, 2002
Location: 孫悟空, 时间太?!

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#710 » by fendilim » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:47 pm

Optimus_Steel wrote:Did I read that right- 6 steals for Franz vs Bkn? Wow. He just keeps impressing.

Yeah! What I like about last night was he didnt back down against KD. He enjoyed the challenge of guarding KD.
Image
basketballRob
RealGM
Posts: 15,802
And1: 6,306
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#711 » by basketballRob » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:25 pm

I wish they would've left him in the game to see if he could match the team record of 8 steals.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 30,948
And1: 5,789
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#712 » by drsd » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:19 pm

Optimus_Steel wrote:Did I read that right- 6 steals for Franz vs Bkn? Wow. He just keeps impressing.


I would rank F-Wagner as the current 3rd best rookie in the NBA !
(Behind Mobley and Barnes - in that order)

..
basketballRob
RealGM
Posts: 15,802
And1: 6,306
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#713 » by basketballRob » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:47 pm

I hope they try him out at SG a little.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 15,110
And1: 12,367
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#714 » by pepe1991 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:29 am

basketballRob wrote:I hope they try him out at SG a little.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Why?
Why Magic fans have most awkward desire to play all their players out of their position and comfort zone ?

Should we try Cole Anthony at center a bit? Should Lopez be our lead point guard?

Franz has been one of few bright spots, guy, standing at 6'10 is already taller than 99% other SFs, having him chasing 6'4 guards off screens will do nothing for him but drain him out of energy.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
basketballRob
RealGM
Posts: 15,802
And1: 6,306
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#715 » by basketballRob » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:35 am

pepe1991 wrote:
basketballRob wrote:I hope they try him out at SG a little.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Why?
Why Magic fans have most awkward desire to play all their players out of their position and comfort zone ?

Should we try Cole Anthony at center a bit? Should Lopez be our lead point guard?

Franz has been one of few bright spots, guy, standing at 6'10 is already taller than 99% other SFs, having him chasing 6'4 guards off screens will do nothing for him but drain him out of energy.
SG was his primary position before going to Michigan. I think having no length at the guard position is killing us.


https://mgoblue.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/franz-wagner/21114

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app
User avatar
zaymon
Analyst
Posts: 3,409
And1: 1,905
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#716 » by zaymon » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:19 am

basketballRob wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
basketballRob wrote:I hope they try him out at SG a little.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Why?
Why Magic fans have most awkward desire to play all their players out of their position and comfort zone ?

Should we try Cole Anthony at center a bit? Should Lopez be our lead point guard?

Franz has been one of few bright spots, guy, standing at 6'10 is already taller than 99% other SFs, having him chasing 6'4 guards off screens will do nothing for him but drain him out of energy.
SG was his primary position before going to Michigan. I think having no length at the guard position is killing us.


https://mgoblue.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/franz-wagner/21114

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Wagner thinks that he is more of a guard than forward. Right now we have propably too many guards to try this regularly, but in the future ? Franz showed he can guard even the smallest guards so i see no reason not to try. Switching potential is massive.
Goodbye Vucevic, welcome lotttery picks !!!
Happysad.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 15,110
And1: 12,367
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#717 » by pepe1991 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:03 am

zaymon wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Why?
Why Magic fans have most awkward desire to play all their players out of their position and comfort zone ?

Should we try Cole Anthony at center a bit? Should Lopez be our lead point guard?

Franz has been one of few bright spots, guy, standing at 6'10 is already taller than 99% other SFs, having him chasing 6'4 guards off screens will do nothing for him but drain him out of energy.
SG was his primary position before going to Michigan. I think having no length at the guard position is killing us.


https://mgoblue.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/franz-wagner/21114

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Wagner thinks that he is more of a guard than forward. Right now we have propably too many guards to try this regularly, but in the future ? Franz showed he can guard even the smallest guards so i see no reason not to try. Switching potential is massive.


emergancy switching to patch defensive mistake is one, playing position on purpose is different. Gobert can defend guard when he is forced

According to bb reference, he spent so far 70% PT at SF, 30% at pF.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
basketballRob
RealGM
Posts: 15,802
And1: 6,306
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#718 » by basketballRob » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:24 am

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
basketballRob wrote:SG was his primary position before going to Michigan. I think having no length at the guard position is killing us.


https://mgoblue.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/franz-wagner/21114

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Wagner thinks that he is more of a guard than forward. Right now we have propably too many guards to try this regularly, but in the future ? Franz showed he can guard even the smallest guards so i see no reason not to try. Switching potential is massive.


emergancy switching to patch defensive mistake is one, playing position on purpose is different. Gobert can defend guard when he is forced

According to bb reference, he spent so far 70% PT at SF, 30% at pF.
Unfortunately, half our roster can only play the guard position, so there are no minutes to try Franz.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app
User avatar
zaymon
Analyst
Posts: 3,409
And1: 1,905
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#719 » by zaymon » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:12 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
basketballRob wrote:SG was his primary position before going to Michigan. I think having no length at the guard position is killing us.


https://mgoblue.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/franz-wagner/21114

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM Forums mobile app


Wagner thinks that he is more of a guard than forward. Right now we have propably too many guards to try this regularly, but in the future ? Franz showed he can guard even the smallest guards so i see no reason not to try. Switching potential is massive.


emergancy switching to patch defensive mistake is one, playing position on purpose is different. Gobert can defend guard when he is forced

According to bb reference, he spent so far 70% PT at SF, 30% at pF.


He played guard in college. Teams are moving into positionless basketball with most platers being 6'6+. I am not sure i want Franz to run after guards but countering big lineups is nice option. (or even force other teams to take out their guards, Wagner will propably punish hard smaller players in time)
Goodbye Vucevic, welcome lotttery picks !!!
Happysad.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 15,110
And1: 12,367
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: WELCOME TO ORLANDO FRANZ WAGNER 

Post#720 » by pepe1991 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:56 pm

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
Wagner thinks that he is more of a guard than forward. Right now we have propably too many guards to try this regularly, but in the future ? Franz showed he can guard even the smallest guards so i see no reason not to try. Switching potential is massive.


emergancy switching to patch defensive mistake is one, playing position on purpose is different. Gobert can defend guard when he is forced

According to bb reference, he spent so far 70% PT at SF, 30% at pF.


He played guard in college. Teams are moving into positionless basketball with most platers being 6'6+. I am not sure i want Franz to run after guards but countering big lineups is nice option. (or even force other teams to take out their guards, Wagner will propably punish hard smaller players in time)


...and Dwayne Bacon used to be good college scorer and Justice Winslow was 6'4 PF to Jah Okafor's - Shaq level dominance of that level of competition. This isn't college and let's keep him at position he is big, strong and weights enough to play. So SF or PF.

Gordon Hayward is way better ballhandler, better passer, better shooter yet almost never was slotted as SG In nba mostly because there was no need for him to do so.
Bojan Bogdanovic, despite being knockdown shooter over years also slided away from SG to SF and PF.

NBA simply goes small, it's easier to play "one down " position opposite of "one up". And SG role in general in nba divides itself into two major role:

a)spot up shooter who runs around without ball
b) secundary playmaker

Wagner is neither nor any 6'10 player should be. Even if we use one of most skilled ballhandlers, passers and shooters ever, for that size, Durant, he hardly ever played any SG ( literally was SG during rookie year, and never since ).

There is hole bunch of Magic guards who can't even play guard position, we should keep things simple for sake of roster. Franz is doing fine, let's keep it that way without frankestain's monster experiments.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.

Return to Orlando Magic