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Gary Harris

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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#21 » by Skin » Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:33 pm

Harris is this year's Bacon/Porter. He'll be gone in a year and we'll be fine without out him. In fact, we'll be better without him because his cap space can be used more wisely. Barnes is a no go for me..
Markelle Fultz, Jalen Suggs, Chuma Okeke, Jonathan Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr.
Cole Anthony, RJ Hampton, Franz Wagner, Moritz Wagner, Mo Bamba. LESSSSGOOOOO!
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#22 » by MagicFan101 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:15 am

tiderulz wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
drsd wrote:
The only reason this might make sense is that Orlando decides the 2022 FA market is overly thin and want to defer the All-in move to 2023.

Harris and Barnes thus serve a place-holder role. I am not sure this should be dragged on too much longer. Just keep Harris, until the Magic assess if Fultz/Hampton can play SG, or if the Magic need to find the SG of the future.


..


Why are we assessing if Fultz can play SG?

Fultz would be the PG, Suggs would be SG.

But really it is a modern backcourt with two ball handlers.

why do you assume so? the ball in Suggs hands leads to good things happening. I agree its great to have more than 1 ball handler. But we havent seen what the Mosley wants to do yet.


:roll: I’ll let you think on that for a bit and get back to me.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#23 » by tiderulz » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:11 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Why are we assessing if Fultz can play SG?

Fultz would be the PG, Suggs would be SG.

But really it is a modern backcourt with two ball handlers.

why do you assume so? the ball in Suggs hands leads to good things happening. I agree its great to have more than 1 ball handler. But we havent seen what the Mosley wants to do yet.


:roll: I’ll let you think on that for a bit and get back to me.

doesnt really matter. If Fultz cant find his 3 pt shot, he will be moved anyways
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#24 » by drsd » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:41 am

tiderulz wrote:doesnt really matter. If Fultz cant find his 3 pt shot, he will be moved anyways


Fultz has about 20 games to prove Portland 2.0, or yes, and unless he shows this is very effective, I believe he would be shipped "no matter what".

As this is the Harris thread: for me the point is that Harris really, really needs to show a lot to get resigned and be the Magic SG of the future. I mean something like going for 20 ppg and taking the Magic to the 10-seed. That is so far fetched it stretches being a believable outcomes to Harris' 2021/22 campaign. BUT: if Harris does return to form of his best ever season - leading to wins and a new Magic contract, then Fultz would be traded without question.

..
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#25 » by drsd » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:49 am

MagicFan101 wrote:Why are we assessing if Fultz can play SG?

Fultz would be the PG, Suggs would be SG.

But really it is a modern backcourt with two ball handlers.


For me all roster scenarios moving forward have Suggs as the lead guard. Yes the Magic might start two PGs, and yes both will have the ball in their hands a lot. But Suggs will be the initiator of fast-breaks and the half-court sets. Fultz would be the player that would activate a PnR play that comes from those.

Both would need a 36% three-ball on 4+ attempts per game for their pairing to function.

..
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#26 » by Skybox » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:55 pm

drsd wrote:
tiderulz wrote:doesnt really matter. If Fultz cant find his 3 pt shot, he will be moved anyways


Fultz has about 20 games to prove Portland 2.0, or yes, and unless he shows this is very effective, I believe he would be shipped "no matter what".

As this is the Harris thread: for me the point is that Harris really, really needs to show a lot to get resigned and be the Magic SG of the future. I mean something like going for 20 ppg and taking the Magic to the 10-seed. That is so far fetched it stretches being a believable outcomes to Harris' 2021/22 campaign. BUT: if Harris does return to form of his best ever season - leading to wins and a new Magic contract, then Fultz would be traded without question.

..


I hate the "Portland 2." take...I get the two ball handling PG thing but the big failing in POR is that both are small and don't defend despite both being great scorer/shooters. Nothing like our (potential) starting guards...Fultz and Suggs are both bigger, stronger, and more physical players. Both can handle and distribute. Suggs is, potentially, an all-around stud lead guard. Fultz is, unfortunately, a terrible three point shooter (but HAS been good years ago-so I hold out hope) but an amazingly powerful penetrator and finisher at the rim. Fultz is also very long and should be a really good defender. Fultz, at times, has a takeover mentality and a great penetrate and kick out game-despite having had no one to kick out to except Vuc to hit a shot.

Dame is an all-time dominant offensive beast. CJ is also a near All-Star level scorer. Every year POR ponders whether they can co-exist at the highest level with their shared deficiencies of size and defense. Our guys will never match their offensive output but could be more complete 2-way players. Both Fultz and Suggs have All-Star potential as incoming rookies...Obviously, Fultz' issues are well-documented but, like Bamba, I'm intrigued to see what he does with new coach, new role, new system, higher position in pecking order with vets gone, and hopefully full health :roll:
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#27 » by tiderulz » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:04 pm

Skybox wrote:
drsd wrote:
tiderulz wrote:doesnt really matter. If Fultz cant find his 3 pt shot, he will be moved anyways


Fultz has about 20 games to prove Portland 2.0, or yes, and unless he shows this is very effective, I believe he would be shipped "no matter what".

As this is the Harris thread: for me the point is that Harris really, really needs to show a lot to get resigned and be the Magic SG of the future. I mean something like going for 20 ppg and taking the Magic to the 10-seed. That is so far fetched it stretches being a believable outcomes to Harris' 2021/22 campaign. BUT: if Harris does return to form of his best ever season - leading to wins and a new Magic contract, then Fultz would be traded without question.

..


I hate the "Portland 2." take...I get the two ball handling PG thing but the big failing in POR is that both are small and don't defend despite both being great scorer/shooters. Nothing like our (potential) starting guards...Fultz and Suggs are both bigger, stronger, and more physical players. Both can handle and distribute. Suggs is, potentially, an all-around stud lead guard. Fultz is, unfortunately, a terrible three point shooter (but HAS been good years ago-so I hold out hope) but an amazingly powerful penetrator and finisher at the rim. Fultz is also very long and should be a really good defender. Fultz, at times, has a takeover mentality and a great penetrate and kick out game-despite having had no one to kick out to except Vuc to hit a shot.

Dame is an all-time dominant offensive beast. CJ is also a near All-Star level scorer. Every year POR ponders whether they can co-exist at the highest level with their shared deficiencies of size and defense. Our guys will never match their offensive output but could be more complete 2-way players. Both Fultz and Suggs have All-Star potential as incoming rookies...Obviously, Fultz' issues are well-documented but, like Bamba, I'm intrigued to see what he does with new coach, new role, new system, higher position in pecking order with vets gone, and hopefully full health :roll:

very much this. having 2 ball handlers in the back court isnt Portland 2.0 to me. having two 6'3 or less guards that you rely on to win is what Portland does.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#28 » by drsd » Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:59 pm

Skybox wrote:I hate the "Portland 2." take...I get the two ball handling PG thing but the big failing in POR is that both are small and don't defend despite both being great scorer/shooters. Nothing like our (potential) starting guards...Fultz and Suggs are both bigger, stronger, and more physical players. Both can handle and distribute. Suggs is, potentially, an all-around stud lead guard. Fultz is, unfortunately, a terrible three point shooter (but HAS been good years ago-so I hold out hope) but an amazingly powerful penetrator and finisher at the rim. Fultz is also very long and should be a really good defender. Fultz, at times, has a takeover mentality and a great penetrate and kick out game-despite having had no one to kick out to except Vuc to hit a shot.

Dame is an all-time dominant offensive beast. CJ is also a near All-Star level scorer. Every year POR ponders whether they can co-exist at the highest level with their shared deficiencies of size and defense. Our guys will never match their offensive output but could be more complete 2-way players. Both Fultz and Suggs have All-Star potential as incoming rookies...Obviously, Fultz' issues are well-documented but, like Bamba, I'm intrigued to see what he does with new coach, new role, new system, higher position in pecking order with vets gone, and hopefully full health :roll:


If Fultz and Suggs can carve out five years together, your post defines the reasons why.

..
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#29 » by Nyce_1 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:14 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
drsd wrote:
Nickim86 wrote:Thoughts on swapping him for Harrison Barnes?


The only reason this might make sense is that Orlando decides the 2022 FA market is overly thin and want to defer the All-in move to 2023.

Harris and Barnes thus serve a place-holder role. I am not sure this should be dragged on too much longer. Just keep Harris, until the Magic assess if Fultz/Hampton can play SG, or if the Magic need to find the SG of the future.


..


Why are we assessing if Fultz can play SG?

Fultz would be the PG, Suggs would be SG.

But really it is a modern backcourt with two ball handlers.

Fultz is a combo guard and the FO thinks he can play SG.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#30 » by Nyce_1 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:16 am

tiderulz wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:why do you assume so? the ball in Suggs hands leads to good things happening. I agree its great to have more than 1 ball handler. But we havent seen what the Mosley wants to do yet.


:roll: I’ll let you think on that for a bit and get back to me.

doesnt really matter. If Fultz cant find his 3 pt shot, he will be moved anyways

If everyone else in the starting lineup is hitting 3s, does Kelle have to find his 3pt shot?
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#31 » by Howard Mass » Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:23 am

You need veterans on the team during a rebuild to be a good influence on the younger talent.

I want Gary Harris to stay here although he could be a buyout candidate after The Trading Deadline.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#32 » by p0peye » Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:36 pm

Whatever we do going forward must be to enable Suggs to thrive. Playing him out of position and paired with offensively limited players is opposite.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#33 » by jonbob17 » Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:30 pm

Nyce_1 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
:roll: I’ll let you think on that for a bit and get back to me.

doesnt really matter. If Fultz cant find his 3 pt shot, he will be moved anyways

If everyone else in the starting lineup is hitting 3s, does Kelle have to find his 3pt shot?


For Fultz to thrive, he can't have guys completely ignore him on the perimeter, like some teams have. We can't have his defender camped out at the elbow, no matter how good the rest of the guys shoot it.

How good he shoots will determine how good he can be. He should have decent success if they guard him out to the line. If guys try and fight over top of screens to stick with him, he could be really dangerous.

He has to at least make the wide open ones at a decent clip (30-32%ish) to get guys out of the paint. Effectively 45-48%, which is better than a midranger. I think 35% should be enough to get guys to really guard him and open up his game. Sounds like such small percentages that it shouldn't even matter, the difference between 30% and 35% is just 1 more out of 20, but I guess it adds up in the context of a game.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#34 » by pepe1991 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:04 am

jonbob17 wrote:
Nyce_1 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:doesnt really matter. If Fultz cant find his 3 pt shot, he will be moved anyways

If everyone else in the starting lineup is hitting 3s, does Kelle have to find his 3pt shot?


For Fultz to thrive, he can't have guys completely ignore him on the perimeter, like some teams have. We can't have his defender camped out at the elbow, no matter how good the rest of the guys shoot it.

How good he shoots will determine how good he can be. He should have decent success if they guard him out to the line. If guys try and fight over top of screens to stick with him, he could be really dangerous.

He has to at least make the wide open ones at a decent clip (30-32%ish) to get guys out of the paint. Effectively 45-48%, which is better than a midranger. I think 35% should be enough to get guys to really guard him and open up his game. Sounds like such small percentages that it shouldn't even matter, the difference between 30% and 35% is just 1 more out of 20, but I guess it adds up in the context of a game.


It sounds like insignificant difference,between 30% and 35%, but it's huge one.
Starting point guards at average shoot between 350 and 400 threes a season.
Taking 350 as sample size, 105/350 makes 30%, 123/350 makes 35% . 18 three point shots swing is swing of 54 points.
Winning margin in nba games ( that's only sample i could find ) in 2016 showed that most games end up being 3-9 points range difference.

Now, there are guards who actually take way more threes. Lillard shoots almost 700 threes a game. His swing would be, from 210 made ( 30%) to 245 (35%) . Swing of potential 105 points .


Thing with Fultz is, he isn't willing 3 point shooter and he is beyond pathetic one. NExt time you play basketball or shoot hoops, try to see how many times you will shoot 2 -10 or 3-10. With any training you should make 3 out of 10 threes every time. And if you can, congrtulations, you are better shooter in emty arena/street hoop than $18M man is at his job , plaiyng guard.
Shooting 25% for 3 is so easy that Andre Roberson, historiclly one of worst FT shooters in history menaged to achive for career. You literally have to make 7 out of 25 outside shots to already be at 28% mark. It's such a joke that people still asking in 2021 ( almost 2022 ) why Fultz shooting is "big deal". While, in same time, league went in direction where teams shoot 40 threes a night, while playing 9 -10 men, and almost every team has center who does not shoot, so at average almost every non-center is shooting 5 threes each.

Image

"Fultz can be great without shot" , no he can't. Ben Simmons is 10 times more talented and there are some rumors that he might be traded to teams that won't even use him at PG any more.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#35 » by drsd » Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:54 am

pepe1991 wrote:It sounds like insignificant difference,between 30% and 35%, but it's huge one.
Starting point guards at average shoot between 350 and 400 threes a season.
Taking 350 as sample size, 105/350 makes 30%, 123/350 makes 35% . 18 three point shots swing is swing of 54 points.
Winning margin in nba games ( that's only sample i could find ) in 2016 showed that most games end up being 3-9 points range difference.

Now, there are guards who actually take way more threes. Lillard shoots almost 700 threes a game. His swing would be, from 210 made ( 30%) to 245 (35%) . Swing of potential 105 points .


As this is the Harris thread, it is worth considering his likely stats.

In 2018-19: 33.9% on 4.2 attempts per game.
In 2019-20: 33.3% on 3.8 attempts per game.
In 2020-21: 34.0% on 3.6 attempts per game.
In 2018-19: 33.9% on 4.2 attempts per game. (and his stats were actually better in Orlando than Denver).

Harris' shooting numbers over the last five years, eFG% and on, are not consistent with the needs of a modern starting SG.

It is a realistic expectation that Harris will shoot 33% on 4 attempts per game next season. And what fans need is his 2016-17 season when he went 42.0% with 4.5 three-ball attempts per game. (( As an aside the 2016-17 season was also Harris' best 2-point FG% season as well leading to a eFG% of 58.6% )).

In 20 games at Orlando, Harris went 36.4% on 3.3 attempts per game. Those are required, floor-level numbers for him here.

If Orlando is to win 26 or more games next season, it will be because Harris is reverting to his best ever season and not settled in to the player he has been for 5-years now. A 36% three-ball from Harris will lead to wins. A 40% three-ball might lead to the playoffs.
The later is not a realistic goal for the fans. But the former is. That 36% three-ball stat line is thus a key threshold for Fultz to take Harris starting role from the ASW and onward.

..
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#36 » by pepe1991 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:39 am

drsd wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:It sounds like insignificant difference,between 30% and 35%, but it's huge one.
Starting point guards at average shoot between 350 and 400 threes a season.
Taking 350 as sample size, 105/350 makes 30%, 123/350 makes 35% . 18 three point shots swing is swing of 54 points.
Winning margin in nba games ( that's only sample i could find ) in 2016 showed that most games end up being 3-9 points range difference.

Now, there are guards who actually take way more threes. Lillard shoots almost 700 threes a game. His swing would be, from 210 made ( 30%) to 245 (35%) . Swing of potential 105 points .


As this is the Harris thread, it is worth considering his likely stats.

In 2018-19: 33.9% on 4.2 attempts per game.
In 2019-20: 33.3% on 3.8 attempts per game.
In 2020-21: 34.0% on 3.6 attempts per game.
In 2018-19: 33.9% on 4.2 attempts per game. (and his stats were actually better in Orlando than Denver).

Harris' shooting numbers over the last five years, eFG% and on, are not consistent with the needs of a modern starting SG.

It is a realistic expectation that Harris will shoot 33% on 4 attempts per game next season. And what fans need is his 2016-17 season when he went 42.0% with 4.5 three-ball attempts per game. (( As an aside the 2016-17 season was also Harris' best 2-point FG% season as well leading to a eFG% of 58.6% )).

In 20 games at Orlando, Harris went 36.4% on 3.3 attempts per game. Those are required, floor-level numbers for him here.

If Orlando is to win 26 or more games next season, it will be because Harris is reverting to his best ever season and not settled in to the player he has been for 5-years now. A 36% three-ball from Harris will lead to wins. A 40% three-ball might lead to the playoffs.
The later is not a realistic goal for the fans. But the former is. That 36% three-ball stat line is thus a key threshold for Fultz to take Harris starting role from the ASW and onward.

..


Tbh if he can play 70 games and shoot 35% for 3 on some healthy 12-14ppg ( and not 36% FG overall like he did for us) that would be nice.
Over 20 games with us he actually attemped lot of shots (9,5 a game), in his second year he attemped 10,1 to average 12,3 ppg. Hopefully he can find some sustained health and rythm.
It's crazy to think that him and Otto Porter were averaging 15/17 ppg on sky high efficiency and two yeras later on Orlando ( and teams who traded them to Orlando ) they were esencially ruined by injuries. Porter just turned 28, Harris isn't yet 27. :noway:
Such a shame and waste.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#37 » by zaymon » Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:44 am

pepe1991 wrote:
drsd wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:It sounds like insignificant difference,between 30% and 35%, but it's huge one.
Starting point guards at average shoot between 350 and 400 threes a season.
Taking 350 as sample size, 105/350 makes 30%, 123/350 makes 35% . 18 three point shots swing is swing of 54 points.
Winning margin in nba games ( that's only sample i could find ) in 2016 showed that most games end up being 3-9 points range difference.

Now, there are guards who actually take way more threes. Lillard shoots almost 700 threes a game. His swing would be, from 210 made ( 30%) to 245 (35%) . Swing of potential 105 points .


As this is the Harris thread, it is worth considering his likely stats.

In 2018-19: 33.9% on 4.2 attempts per game.
In 2019-20: 33.3% on 3.8 attempts per game.
In 2020-21: 34.0% on 3.6 attempts per game.
In 2018-19: 33.9% on 4.2 attempts per game. (and his stats were actually better in Orlando than Denver).

Harris' shooting numbers over the last five years, eFG% and on, are not consistent with the needs of a modern starting SG.

It is a realistic expectation that Harris will shoot 33% on 4 attempts per game next season. And what fans need is his 2016-17 season when he went 42.0% with 4.5 three-ball attempts per game. (( As an aside the 2016-17 season was also Harris' best 2-point FG% season as well leading to a eFG% of 58.6% )).

In 20 games at Orlando, Harris went 36.4% on 3.3 attempts per game. Those are required, floor-level numbers for him here.

If Orlando is to win 26 or more games next season, it will be because Harris is reverting to his best ever season and not settled in to the player he has been for 5-years now. A 36% three-ball from Harris will lead to wins. A 40% three-ball might lead to the playoffs.
The later is not a realistic goal for the fans. But the former is. That 36% three-ball stat line is thus a key threshold for Fultz to take Harris starting role from the ASW and onward.

..


Tbh if he can play 70 games and shoot 35% for 3 on some healthy 12-14ppg ( and not 36% FG overall like he did for us) that would be nice.
Over 20 games with us he actually attemped lot of shots (9,5 a game), in his second year he attemped 10,1 to average 12,3 ppg. Hopefully he can find some sustained health and rythm.
It's crazy to think that him and Otto Porter were averaging 15/17 ppg on sky high efficiency and two yeras later on Orlando ( and teams who traded them to Orlando ) they were esencially ruined by injuries. Porter just turned 28, Harris isn't yet 27. :noway:
Such a shame and waste.


If Harris is better than Fultz in training camp i see no reason to start Markelle above him. Its a tough league i dont see any reason to babysit Fultz. Gary showed he impacts winning in the playoffs even with shaky jumper. I would be ok resigning him on a fair deal.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#38 » by Magic#1 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:13 pm

Keep Harris as the vet leader on a contract year. Barnes contract lasts only one year longer, but by next year we need Chuma and Franz eating up the minutes at the 3 spot. Right now, I'm thinking Harris is our starting sg. That may change based on Fultz's health or Hampton and Cole's development, but right now Harris is probably our starter. If we can get something decent for him at the deadline, sure, but we don't need a guy who will take the minutes away from our young guys.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#39 » by Horcy » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:25 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
jonbob17 wrote:
Nyce_1 wrote:If everyone else in the starting lineup is hitting 3s, does Kelle have to find his 3pt shot?


For Fultz to thrive, he can't have guys completely ignore him on the perimeter, like some teams have. We can't have his defender camped out at the elbow, no matter how good the rest of the guys shoot it.

How good he shoots will determine how good he can be. He should have decent success if they guard him out to the line. If guys try and fight over top of screens to stick with him, he could be really dangerous.

He has to at least make the wide open ones at a decent clip (30-32%ish) to get guys out of the paint. Effectively 45-48%, which is better than a midranger. I think 35% should be enough to get guys to really guard him and open up his game. Sounds like such small percentages that it shouldn't even matter, the difference between 30% and 35% is just 1 more out of 20, but I guess it adds up in the context of a game.


It sounds like insignificant difference,between 30% and 35%, but it's huge one.
Starting point guards at average shoot between 350 and 400 threes a season.
Taking 350 as sample size, 105/350 makes 30%, 123/350 makes 35% . 18 three point shots swing is swing of 54 points.
Winning margin in nba games ( that's only sample i could find ) in 2016 showed that most games end up being 3-9 points range difference.

Now, there are guards who actually take way more threes. Lillard shoots almost 700 threes a game. His swing would be, from 210 made ( 30%) to 245 (35%) . Swing of potential 105 points .


Thing with Fultz is, he isn't willing 3 point shooter and he is beyond pathetic one. NExt time you play basketball or shoot hoops, try to see how many times you will shoot 2 -10 or 3-10. With any training you should make 3 out of 10 threes every time. And if you can, congrtulations, you are better shooter in emty arena/street hoop than $18M man is at his job , plaiyng guard.
Shooting 25% for 3 is so easy that Andre Roberson, historiclly one of worst FT shooters in history menaged to achive for career. You literally have to make 7 out of 25 outside shots to already be at 28% mark. It's such a joke that people still asking in 2021 ( almost 2022 ) why Fultz shooting is "big deal". While, in same time, league went in direction where teams shoot 40 threes a night, while playing 9 -10 men, and almost every team has center who does not shoot, so at average almost every non-center is shooting 5 threes each.

Image

"Fultz can be great without shot" , no he can't. Ben Simmons is 10 times more talented and there are some rumors that he might be traded to teams that won't even use him at PG any more.


Hahahaa this guy should dream about Markelle. His hate for him is so big that he can't stand to have a discussion about another player.
Really interesting...whatever. Nobody cares. This is Harris post.
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Re: Gary Harris 

Post#40 » by MagicMatic » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:33 pm

Suggs/Fultz
Harris/RJ
Okeke/Ross
Isaac/Wagner
Carter/Bamba

This is until Harris is moved

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