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2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#141 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:07 am

JTG_92940618 wrote:
mhd wrote:
JTG_92940618 wrote:
We can develop Suggs with Cole on the team. We just have to split them up better. Part of the reason we haven't managed that is nobody has stepped up at SG so just kind of left Suggs there.

But yeah, there's also plenty of ball for Suggs. He's actually had a higher usage than Cole coming into this game.


From afar it seems as if Anthony is a big ball hog. He's a got a great stroke, but he's ideally suited as a spark plug off the bench. Let Suggs take the lumps of a rookie PG. Start the vet Ross next to him (he's struggled this year obviously, but he's still a threat), and go from there. Developing Suggs should be the top priority for Orlando. Wagner was a perfect pick. He's unselfish to a T, plays the right way, and is an excellent defender.


Kind of agree.

My preference is to move Suggs out of the starting line-up and let him run the second unit. He should do better against bench players and sooner or later he'll have either Isaac or Bamba to run the pick and roll with.



Nah then you’ll just put him with guys like Tross who’s checked out and Harris who isn’t even a player anymore. The roles just need to be switched. Cole has a scorers mentality. Fine. Develop that strength by letting him run around screens and other off the ball ways of scoring. Give Suggs the ball and let him work, finding plays to make for his receivers. See where I’m going with this?

It’s his natural ability. His DNA. Make plays for others. Build that to become elite. Stop pussyfooting around.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#142 » by JTG_92940618 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:14 am

89Magicfan wrote:
JTG_92940618 wrote:
mhd wrote:
From afar it seems as if Anthony is a big ball hog. He's a got a great stroke, but he's ideally suited as a spark plug off the bench. Let Suggs take the lumps of a rookie PG. Start the vet Ross next to him (he's struggled this year obviously, but he's still a threat), and go from there. Developing Suggs should be the top priority for Orlando. Wagner was a perfect pick. He's unselfish to a T, plays the right way, and is an excellent defender.


Kind of agree.

My preference is to move Suggs out of the starting line-up and let him run the second unit. He should do better against bench players and sooner or later he'll have either Isaac or Bamba to run the pick and roll with.



Nah then you’ll just put him with guys like Tross who’s checked out and Harris who isn’t even a player anymore. The roles just need to be switched. Cole has a scorers mentality. Fine. Develop that strength by letting him run around screens and other off the ball ways of scoring. Give Suggs the ball and let him work, finding plays to make for his receivers. See where I’m going with this?

It’s his natural ability. His DNA. Make plays for others. Build that to become elite. Stop pussyfooting around.


So, no matter who is next to Suggs at SG is going to be bad. T-Ross, GH, RJ - they've all had a tough season so far.

I understand what you're saying overall but I think Cole does his best work as a scoring PG. He's not a short two-guard, his best feature is that he can score off the dribble. I don't think we should be giving up on this by making him a 2.

Likewise, being totally frank, Suggs has been bad to start his career. I think it's way easier for him to play against bench PGs than starters.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#143 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:28 am

JTG_92940618 wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:
JTG_92940618 wrote:
Kind of agree.

My preference is to move Suggs out of the starting line-up and let him run the second unit. He should do better against bench players and sooner or later he'll have either Isaac or Bamba to run the pick and roll with.



Nah then you’ll just put him with guys like Tross who’s checked out and Harris who isn’t even a player anymore. The roles just need to be switched. Cole has a scorers mentality. Fine. Develop that strength by letting him run around screens and other off the ball ways of scoring. Give Suggs the ball and let him work, finding plays to make for his receivers. See where I’m going with this?

It’s his natural ability. His DNA. Make plays for others. Build that to become elite. Stop pussyfooting around.


So, no matter who is next to Suggs at SG is going to be bad. T-Ross, GH, RJ - they've all had a tough season so far.

I understand what you're saying overall but I think Cole does his best work as a scoring PG. He's not a short two-guard, his best feature is that he can score off the dribble. I don't think we should be giving up on this by making him a 2.

Likewise, being totally frank, Suggs has been bad to start his career. I think it's way easier for him to play against bench PGs than starters.



We are developing Cole too. You don’t go away from his ability to score off the dribble. You build upon it by further development his ability to score.

Suggs doesn’t need easy. He needs to play to his strengths.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#144 » by JTG_92940618 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:38 am

89Magicfan wrote:
JTG_92940618 wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:

Nah then you’ll just put him with guys like Tross who’s checked out and Harris who isn’t even a player anymore. The roles just need to be switched. Cole has a scorers mentality. Fine. Develop that strength by letting him run around screens and other off the ball ways of scoring. Give Suggs the ball and let him work, finding plays to make for his receivers. See where I’m going with this?

It’s his natural ability. His DNA. Make plays for others. Build that to become elite. Stop pussyfooting around.


So, no matter who is next to Suggs at SG is going to be bad. T-Ross, GH, RJ - they've all had a tough season so far.

I understand what you're saying overall but I think Cole does his best work as a scoring PG. He's not a short two-guard, his best feature is that he can score off the dribble. I don't think we should be giving up on this by making him a 2.

Likewise, being totally frank, Suggs has been bad to start his career. I think it's way easier for him to play against bench PGs than starters.



We are developing Cole too. You don’t go away from his ability to score off the dribble. You build upon it by further development his ability to score.

Suggs doesn’t need easy. He needs to play to his strengths.


I think we agree overall but we have a different philosophy about getting to our destination.

For example, I agree Cole needs to develop an off-ball game but I don't think we should do this yet. Currently, his hot games are all that is keeping us from deep embarrassment AND I don't think we can tick his shooting off the dribble as a confirmed skill until we see more of it. As a result, I think we leave him as-is for now.

Regarding Suggs, I agree we need to play to his strengths - that's on-ball as a PG, making plays for others - but I disagree we should do this as a starter. I think he needs it as easy as possible right now.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#145 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:41 am

JTG_92940618 wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:
JTG_92940618 wrote:
So, no matter who is next to Suggs at SG is going to be bad. T-Ross, GH, RJ - they've all had a tough season so far.

I understand what you're saying overall but I think Cole does his best work as a scoring PG. He's not a short two-guard, his best feature is that he can score off the dribble. I don't think we should be giving up on this by making him a 2.

Likewise, being totally frank, Suggs has been bad to start his career. I think it's way easier for him to play against bench PGs than starters.



We are developing Cole too. You don’t go away from his ability to score off the dribble. You build upon it by further development his ability to score.

Suggs doesn’t need easy. He needs to play to his strengths.


I think we agree overall but we have a different philosophy about getting to our destination.

For example, I agree Cole needs to develop an off-ball game but I don't think we should do this yet. Currently, his hot games are all that is keeping us from deep embarrassment AND I don't think we can tick his shooting off the dribble as a confirmed skill until we see more of it. As a result, I think we leave him as-is for now.

Regarding Suggs, I agree we need to play to his strengths - that's on-ball as a PG, making plays for others - but I disagree we should do this as a starter. I think he needs it as easy as possible right now.



Yeah but look at who Suggs making plays for in that second unit. It would be equally frustrating. At least in the first unit you have guys who can hit shots, who can run the floor.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#146 » by JTG_92940618 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:51 am

89Magicfan wrote:
JTG_92940618 wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:

We are developing Cole too. You don’t go away from his ability to score off the dribble. You build upon it by further development his ability to score.

Suggs doesn’t need easy. He needs to play to his strengths.


I think we agree overall but we have a different philosophy about getting to our destination.

For example, I agree Cole needs to develop an off-ball game but I don't think we should do this yet. Currently, his hot games are all that is keeping us from deep embarrassment AND I don't think we can tick his shooting off the dribble as a confirmed skill until we see more of it. As a result, I think we leave him as-is for now.

Regarding Suggs, I agree we need to play to his strengths - that's on-ball as a PG, making plays for others - but I disagree we should do this as a starter. I think he needs it as easy as possible right now.



Yeah but look at who Suggs making plays for in that second unit. It would be equally frustrating. At least in the first unit you have guys who can hit shots, who can run the floor.


Yeah fair enough, I think I've come around to your way of thinking. We could start Cole but stagger it in a way that allows Suggs time with Bamba, WCJ and Franz.

Basically start Cole and make the first sub Cole out for Suggs. Then Cole can come back in and cook against the oppo bench.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#147 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:59 am

JTG_92940618 wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:
JTG_92940618 wrote:
I think we agree overall but we have a different philosophy about getting to our destination.

For example, I agree Cole needs to develop an off-ball game but I don't think we should do this yet. Currently, his hot games are all that is keeping us from deep embarrassment AND I don't think we can tick his shooting off the dribble as a confirmed skill until we see more of it. As a result, I think we leave him as-is for now.

Regarding Suggs, I agree we need to play to his strengths - that's on-ball as a PG, making plays for others - but I disagree we should do this as a starter. I think he needs it as easy as possible right now.



Yeah but look at who Suggs making plays for in that second unit. It would be equally frustrating. At least in the first unit you have guys who can hit shots, who can run the floor.


Yeah fair enough, I think I've come around to your way of thinking. We could start Cole but stagger it in a way that allows Suggs time with Bamba, WCJ and Franz.

Basically start Cole and make the first sub Cole out for Suggs. Then Cole can come back in and cook against the oppo bench.



Take Cole out, sub in RJ. Harris is just finished. Take Suggs out, bring back Cole. Easy.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#148 » by ibraheim718 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:47 am

What we're seeing is if Dallas had tried to turn Jason Kidd into a shooting guard in his rookie year. It's insanity. Someone needs to step in and do something.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#149 » by ibraheim718 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:50 am

Also, Jason Kidd wasn't a maestro handling the ball either. He wasn't Kenny Anderson. He was a utilitarian ball handler.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#150 » by MagicMatic » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:53 am

ibraheim718 wrote:I warned of this exact situation before the season started. They're ruining Suggs forcing him to play off the ball. He is not a SG... he is not a 1 on 1 player right now. His confidence is shot because he's being forced to play out of position. If they don't feel they can absorb the growing pains i.e the turnovers and lack of shot creation they should send him to the G-league or bring him off the bench to rest Anthony for 15 minutes a game. I can tell you right now.. the coach is losing him and while he's losing confidence in himself it's going to turn into losing confidence in the organization. The coaching staff and front office have their priorities upside down right now and they're taking steps backwards not forwards.


This is kinda what I was worried about given the lineups and roster construction…and Fultz isn’t even back yet…

Jalen Suggs isn’t a shooting guard. He has to have the ball in his hands to run an offense with a starting unit. Cole and/or Fultz pounding the air out of the ball, and viewed as a “necessity” for lacks of other options, won’t be ideal for Suggs or team development.

Even if you stagger their minutes it won’t really make sense. Why? Because Cole Anthony and Fultz aren’t good pairings with Suggs in the backcourt and they all require the ball. None of them play exceptionally well off-ball. This is the part where people start throwing out smooth-brain lineups that will never work despite of how convenient and ultimately flawed they may be.

Then again, as it’s already been discussed.. it’s kind of difficult to give the keys to the #15 pick instead of a top 5 pick just because the box score looks nicer in the few non blowout losses we have. Suggs is the future despite the results not flying off the page for people that aren’t patient enough 12 games into his rookie season.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#151 » by KillMonger » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:43 am

Cole is like a upgraded DJ Augustin....i would say DJ is a better game manager but we're talking about a vet vs a kid 21 years old...Cole has to learn how to run a team, but he's been thrown into the fire as a starter with the ball in his hands and has yet to learn the vet moves. It's so much so that even with the turnovers, suggs seem to have more of a handle on finding people with the pass than Cole does....cole has to learn how to run a team and he has to step his defense up...kind of disappointed in how we're handling Franz as well, he can do more than he's doing right how but it seems like we don't really run any plays for the kid....he's a rookie yes....but he's still a top ten pick, why does it seem we're setting up Gary frickin Harris for shots but not Franz? we actually ran a set play to get harris a shot....i was like...huh?
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#152 » by Dub_Sax » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:45 am

Just watched the game and a few things I noticed:
1. The whole "nba is a game of runs" saying is hurting the teams mentally.. it's like they "accept" a team's run instead of trying to do something to stop it.
2. Seems like Suggs is starting to make better decisions on offense
3. Given #2, may be time to have Cole be the offense spark off the bench and start RJ until Fultz comes back

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#153 » by pepe1991 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:08 am

Harrell destroying us despite we play 2 centers and another 3 quaters game wraped...

Btw why Okeke changed his shooting motion? His hand now goes way further and almost all his shots look flat

I'm impressed how Wizards turned Kuzma into ok defender
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#154 » by drsd » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:31 am

With this loss, coupled with the Pistons win, the Magic is now currently the worst team in the Eastern conference.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#155 » by zaymon » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:40 am

I dont understand why some of you want Suggs to run our offense. Guy cant handle the ball right now, that seems like kind of important skill to play point guard.
On the other hand Anthony biggest strength is scoring off the dribble so we should play him off the ball ?
I think we are terrible enough without those changes.
Suggs needs to practice dribbling 24/7. Until he improves giving him keys to our offense seems crazy. I hope his injury is not serious becouse i like him a lot.
I agree about Wagner. He should be more involved. Today he missed a lot of easy looks but the way he created them was very encouraging.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#156 » by orthoman » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:08 am

Observations from last night: (and previous games this year)

1. The magic are absolutely pitiful

2. Bamba needs to be traded somehow. Just a general lack of motor/drive. Takes too many 3 pt. shots

3. Suggs has been a big disappointment.

4. Interesting how, again, David Steele and Jeff Turner never talk about Fultzs' and Isaacs' return. They avoid that subject
and rather focus on "Is that Anything" trivia.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#157 » by paperboymafia » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:11 am

Woke up this morning to check the game results and thought to myself "I wonder how badly Beal torched us last night?"

lol we're so awful.

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#158 » by IllMagic04 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:27 pm

We just cant shoot right now. Alot of the looks we got were good looks we just keep missing. We are a bad shooting team but not as bad as we've been the last couple games.

As for big picture I agree I want Cole developing to a off ball scoring punch cause ultimatley thats gonna be his role. Hes not a lead PG. We knew that when we drafted him. We just dont have any options right now. Suggs is awful right now. He does not have the handle to be a starting lead pg yet. Hes gets chances throughout the game and it looks bad. There are flashes here and there but its bad. We've tried RJ there and thats not good either. Untill Fultz or MCW come back the best we have is Cole. Which is bad for Coles devolopment cause thats not what his role is going to be.


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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#159 » by Skybox » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:12 pm

Knightro wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:I warned of this exact situation before the season started. They're ruining Suggs forcing him to play off the ball. He is not a SG... he is not a 1 on 1 player right now. His confidence is shot because he's being forced to play out of position. If they don't feel they can absorb the growing pains i.e the turnovers and lack of shot creation they should send him to the G-league or bring him off the bench to rest Anthony for 15 minutes a game. I can tell you right now.. the coach is losing him and while he's losing confidence in himself it's going to turn into losing confidence in the organization. The coaching staff and front office have their priorities upside down right now and they're taking steps backwards not forwards.




I'm disappointed in Suggs but not upset...Not sure how they're "ruining" a young guy with loose handles by limiting his exposure to having his pocket picked every time down the court. Not sure how putting all of the decisions on him right out of the gate would improve his confidence and minimize growing pains. I thought he'd be more NBA ready and take over from Day 1, but I understand now that he's not a pure PG, hasn't even been a pure basketball player until a year and a half ago. Relax. I agree they should give him more time on the ball but maybe with second unit...Fultz returning will be a logical time for that to occur.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#160 » by basketballRob » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:25 pm

ibraheim718 wrote:Dear Lord the shooting guard experiment needs to end please!!!!
The starting lineup has been the best in the league and the bench has been the worst. Meaning the players we have is the problem. The bench sucks.

That's not the coach.

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