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2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#161 » by basketballRob » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:31 pm

Statlanta wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:
It's insane to me that you think this offense would look the same under Carlisle or Kerr.


Steve Kerr ain't running a motion offense with this roster and Carlisle can't even take a playoff roster to .500 in this weaker conference.
Our PG can't make the simple pass so he just opts to shoot it. Then he runs under the basket to try and steal rebounds from our bigs and doesn't box out his man for the long rebound.

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#162 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:44 pm

zaymon wrote:I dont understand why some of you want Suggs to run our offense. Guy cant handle the ball right now, that seems like kind of important skill to play point guard.
On the other hand Anthony biggest strength is scoring off the dribble so we should play him off the ball ?
I think we are terrible enough without those changes.
Suggs needs to practice dribbling 24/7. Until he improves giving him keys to our offense seems crazy. I hope his injury is not serious becouse i like him a lot.
I agree about Wagner. He should be more involved. Today he missed a lot of easy looks but the way he created them was very encouraging.



Because you’re ignoring his key ability. Make plays for others. He can’t shoot so why continue have him as a SG? At least with the ball he can do something and that thing is his biggest strength.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#163 » by rcklsscognition » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:47 pm

Had a good time at the game, nice energy in the crowd and I was surprised it was pretty full in the arena actually. Team energy was not there, I think I remember a couple posters mentioning it a while back, but Ross looks like he's on death row out there. Get that guy outta here for his own sanity. Really looks like the only guys that cared were Wagner and RJ, Cole got it going a couple times but couldn't sustain any energy. Suggs does not look like he has any idea what is going on out there.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#164 » by p0peye » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:43 pm

89Magicfan wrote:
zaymon wrote:I dont understand why some of you want Suggs to run our offense. Guy cant handle the ball right now, that seems like kind of important skill to play point guard.
On the other hand Anthony biggest strength is scoring off the dribble so we should play him off the ball ?
I think we are terrible enough without those changes.
Suggs needs to practice dribbling 24/7. Until he improves giving him keys to our offense seems crazy. I hope his injury is not serious becouse i like him a lot.
I agree about Wagner. He should be more involved. Today he missed a lot of easy looks but the way he created them was very encouraging.



Because you’re ignoring his key ability. Make plays for others. He can’t shoot so why continue have him as a SG? At least with the ball he can do something and that thing is his biggest strength.


You mean turn it over to opposing team?
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#165 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:32 pm

p0peye wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:
zaymon wrote:I dont understand why some of you want Suggs to run our offense. Guy cant handle the ball right now, that seems like kind of important skill to play point guard.
On the other hand Anthony biggest strength is scoring off the dribble so we should play him off the ball ?
I think we are terrible enough without those changes.
Suggs needs to practice dribbling 24/7. Until he improves giving him keys to our offense seems crazy. I hope his injury is not serious becouse i like him a lot.
I agree about Wagner. He should be more involved. Today he missed a lot of easy looks but the way he created them was very encouraging.



Because you’re ignoring his key ability. Make plays for others. He can’t shoot so why continue have him as a SG? At least with the ball he can do something and that thing is his biggest strength.


You mean turn it over to opposing team?


Yes. I’m fine with that because him being forced to develop into a complete different player, ignoring his natural skills, going 4-10 every game, wasting crucial years to make his strengths elite for the NBA, is a lot more damaging than him working on/through TO’s (something all rookie PG’s go through) while doing what he does best. Not ignoring it.

He’s at his best running the show making plays. He needs to hone those skills with real game action. Not be separated from them.

He may have his struggles which all rooks do to some degree but to completely go away from what made a player who he is to become a 5th pick or what have you is doing a disservice to him and the team. You can always put him at the off guard spot, continue to work on his shot etc but to completely abandon a players strengths is counterproductive.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#166 » by p0peye » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:40 pm

I don't think anyone is suggesting he is SG and that we should groom him into one. So far his calling card has been defense, which is really good, but he simply struggles to function as PG in the NBA. He can't shoot and has problems handling the ball without getting stripped, but his instincts are not where they supposed to be IMO.

I was hoping that playing against bench guys would be a better environment where he can refine those skills, but from what I've seen so far, it is not the case. Admittedly. I've yet to watch a game in its entirety as I easily fall asleep - being in Ireland time zone is one challenge, but the way we play is bigger factor in me dosing off.

Still, too soon to tell, but early start has been a bumpy ride.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#167 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:47 pm

p0peye wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting he is SG and that we should groom him into one. So far his calling card has been defense, which is really good, but he simply struggles to function as PG in the NBA. He can't shoot and has problems handling the ball without getting stripped, but his instincts are not where they supposed to be IMO.

I was hoping that playing against bench guys would be a better environment where he can refine those skills, but from what I've seen so far, it is not the case. Admittedly. I've yet to watch a game in its entirety as I easily fall asleep - being in Ireland time zone is one challenge, but the way we play is bigger factor in me dosing off.

Still, too soon to tell, but early start has been a bumpy ride.


But that’s where he’s spending a lot of time at. Last night he spent a little more time running the show and I can tell you, that’s the most comfortable he’s looked since summer league.

He has to adapt to a new breed of athletes. They’re faster, stronger, smarter. His handles will improve. His shooting will improve. His strength of making plays for others should not be taken from him though.

I’m saying this because I know. As a pg, there’s just something about making plays for others. The same way scorers get into a rhythm by heating up, or rebounders like Drodman getting boards, it puts you into that zone. More plays you make for others, basket gets bigger, confidence goes up, defense gets higher level, handles get tighter. You’re no longer thinking. It’s all slowing down. You’re seeing things five steps before everyone else. It’s natural. That’s where he’s at right now. Thinking...forcing...In his head he’s probably saying to himself “Damn I would’ve made that play. Or that pass” Instead he’s sitting waiting to catch and shoot.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#168 » by J the Drafter » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:52 pm

89Magicfan wrote:
p0peye wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:

Because you’re ignoring his key ability. Make plays for others. He can’t shoot so why continue have him as a SG? At least with the ball he can do something and that thing is his biggest strength.


You mean turn it over to opposing team?


Yes. I’m fine with that because him being forced to develop into a complete different player, ignoring his natural skills, going 4-10 every game, wasting crucial years to make his strengths elite for the NBA, is a lot more damaging than him working on/through TO’s (something all rookie PG’s go through) while doing what he does best. Not ignoring it. He’s at his best running the show making plays. He needs to home those skills. Not be separated from them.

Suggs will hone his skills practice and in scrimmage, not in live play. The most that doing stuff in games will him is experience, but skill development doesn’t happen on-court.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#169 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:09 pm

J the Drafter wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:
p0peye wrote:
You mean turn it over to opposing team?


Yes. I’m fine with that because him being forced to develop into a complete different player, ignoring his natural skills, going 4-10 every game, wasting crucial years to make his strengths elite for the NBA, is a lot more damaging than him working on/through TO’s (something all rookie PG’s go through) while doing what he does best. Not ignoring it. He’s at his best running the show making plays. He needs to home those skills. Not be separated from them.

Suggs will hone his skills practice and in scrimmage, not in live play. The most that doing stuff in games will him is experience, but skill development doesn’t happen on-court.



That’s completely false. You don’t hone your strengths by just scrimmaging, using them, against the same players in a controlled environment in season where practices are at times hard to come by. That helps but you must use them in real time as well.

You’re missing the point though. We can not ignore what he’s good at. That’s been tried many times with no success. I can list, many just on the Magic, in previous years where that has not worked.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#170 » by JF5 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:36 pm

basketballRob wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:Dear Lord the shooting guard experiment needs to end please!!!!
The starting lineup has been the best in the league and the bench has been the worst. Meaning the players we have is the problem. The bench sucks.

That's not the coach.

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This observation/stat is VERY misleading... The Magic are a bad team... Teams who are better than them don't play with a full force to beat them and play at their level which is the bare minimum for a decent to mediocre team (like with Washington last night without Bradley Beal). Usually teams will go on another gear between 1, 2, or maybe even 3 stretches in a game to put themselves in a comfortable position/lead and then dial it back. What happens is that the Magic slightly come back in it (Maybe even come back completely) or the Magic (the majority of the time) just can't recover and lose by 20-30 points.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#171 » by pepe1991 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:42 pm

Even in games that don't end up in on surface blowouts, like this one, Magic were never in position to treat end restult. This game we lost by 12 but whole 4th quater was garbage time. Wizards were at one point up by 25 and there was like 10 min to play.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#172 » by JF5 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:56 pm

p0peye wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting he is SG and that we should groom him into one. So far his calling card has been defense, which is really good, but he simply struggles to function as PG in the NBA. He can't shoot and has problems handling the ball without getting stripped, but his instincts are not where they supposed to be IMO.

I was hoping that playing against bench guys would be a better environment where he can refine those skills, but from what I've seen so far, it is not the case. Admittedly. I've yet to watch a game in its entirety as I easily fall asleep - being in Ireland time zone is one challenge, but the way we play is bigger factor in me dosing off.

Still, too soon to tell, but early start has been a bumpy ride.


To me this is a unpopular opinion on this board, but I honestly think he should develop more into a SG (IMO). He'll eventually tighten his handle/and shoot better. but he has the strength to play with SG's who are his body size and he has very quick first step that gets him to rim he would take advantage of against those guys at that position. Also with him being able to move up a position you have the ability to develop/get another guy who can pass/move the ball just as well which make the offense easier for everyone else on the court.

To me seeing him play more he's a Dwyane Wade/Scottie Pippen/Tracy McGrady/Andre Iguodala/Brandon Roy branch of prospect than a Chauncey Billups/Chris Paul branch which I originally pegged him at.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#173 » by AaronB » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:08 pm

89Magicfan wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:
89Magicfan wrote:
Yes. I’m fine with that because him being forced to develop into a complete different player, ignoring his natural skills, going 4-10 every game, wasting crucial years to make his strengths elite for the NBA, is a lot more damaging than him working on/through TO’s (something all rookie PG’s go through) while doing what he does best. Not ignoring it. He’s at his best running the show making plays. He needs to home those skills. Not be separated from them.

Suggs will hone his skills practice and in scrimmage, not in live play. The most that doing stuff in games will him is experience, but skill development doesn’t happen on-court.



That’s completely false. You don’t hone your strengths by just scrimmaging, using them, against the same players in a controlled environment in season where practices are at times hard to come by. That helps but you must use them in real time as well.

You’re missing the point though. We can not ignore what he’s good at. That’s been tried many times with no success. I can list, many just on the Magic, in previous years where that has not worked.


it requires all 3: practice time, scrimmage time, and game time.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#174 » by zaymon » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:15 pm

JF5 wrote:
p0peye wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting he is SG and that we should groom him into one. So far his calling card has been defense, which is really good, but he simply struggles to function as PG in the NBA. He can't shoot and has problems handling the ball without getting stripped, but his instincts are not where they supposed to be IMO.

I was hoping that playing against bench guys would be a better environment where he can refine those skills, but from what I've seen so far, it is not the case. Admittedly. I've yet to watch a game in its entirety as I easily fall asleep - being in Ireland time zone is one challenge, but the way we play is bigger factor in me dosing off.

Still, too soon to tell, but early start has been a bumpy ride.


To me this is a unpopular opinion on this board, but I honestly think he should develop more into a SG (IMO). He'll eventually tighten his handle/and shoot better. but he has the strength to play with SG's who are his body size and he has very quick first step that gets him to rim he would take advantage of against those guys at that position. Also with him being able to move up a position you have the ability to develop/get another guy who can pass/move the ball just as well which make the offense easier for everyone else on the court.

To me seeing him play more he's a Dwyane Wade/Scottie Pippen/Tracy McGrady/Andre Iguodala/Brandon Roy branch of prospect than a Chauncey Billups/Chris Paul branch which I originally pegged him at.


Right now he looks like project Caruso. Temporary playmaker playing off bigger initiator. He cant initiate offense even with help right now, he needs drastic amount of work on his handle. No time during games will improve that. He will only lose confidence like he already did.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#175 » by 89Magicfan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:25 pm

JF5 wrote:
p0peye wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting he is SG and that we should groom him into one. So far his calling card has been defense, which is really good, but he simply struggles to function as PG in the NBA. He can't shoot and has problems handling the ball without getting stripped, but his instincts are not where they supposed to be IMO.

I was hoping that playing against bench guys would be a better environment where he can refine those skills, but from what I've seen so far, it is not the case. Admittedly. I've yet to watch a game in its entirety as I easily fall asleep - being in Ireland time zone is one challenge, but the way we play is bigger factor in me dosing off.

Still, too soon to tell, but early start has been a bumpy ride.


To me this is a unpopular opinion on this board, but I honestly think he should develop more into a SG (IMO). He'll eventually tighten his handle/and shoot better. but he has the strength to play with SG's who are his body size and he has very quick first step that gets him to rim he would take advantage of against those guys at that position. Also with him being able to move up a position you have the ability to develop/get another guy who can pass/move the ball just as well which make the offense easier for everyone else on the court.

To me seeing him play more he's a Dwyane Wade/Scottie Pippen/Tracy McGrady/Andre Iguodala/Brandon Roy branch of prospect than a Chauncey Billups/Chris Paul branch which I originally pegged him at.



That’s what I’m thinking they are doing. With Fultz coming back eventually, with Cole, it makes some sense but the guys you mentioned had one thing in common. They made plays with the ball. For others. They didn’t just sit out on the perimeter waiting for catch and shoot opportunities. Pencil him whatever position you want...Sg or pg...Just don’t ignore his strengths. Give him some reps as the lead ball handler. It does seem they are giving him more so we’ll see.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#176 » by JF5 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:41 pm

89Magicfan wrote:
JF5 wrote:
p0peye wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting he is SG and that we should groom him into one. So far his calling card has been defense, which is really good, but he simply struggles to function as PG in the NBA. He can't shoot and has problems handling the ball without getting stripped, but his instincts are not where they supposed to be IMO.

I was hoping that playing against bench guys would be a better environment where he can refine those skills, but from what I've seen so far, it is not the case. Admittedly. I've yet to watch a game in its entirety as I easily fall asleep - being in Ireland time zone is one challenge, but the way we play is bigger factor in me dosing off.

Still, too soon to tell, but early start has been a bumpy ride.


To me this is a unpopular opinion on this board, but I honestly think he should develop more into a SG (IMO). He'll eventually tighten his handle/and shoot better. but he has the strength to play with SG's who are his body size and he has very quick first step that gets him to rim he would take advantage of against those guys at that position. Also with him being able to move up a position you have the ability to develop/get another guy who can pass/move the ball just as well which make the offense easier for everyone else on the court.

To me seeing him play more he's a Dwyane Wade/Scottie Pippen/Tracy McGrady/Andre Iguodala/Brandon Roy branch of prospect than a Chauncey Billups/Chris Paul branch which I originally pegged him at.



That’s what I’m thinking they are doing. With Fultz coming back eventually, with Cole, it makes some sense but the guys you mentioned had one thing in common. They made plays with the ball. For others. They didn’t just sit out on the perimeter waiting for catch and shoot opportunities. Pencil him whatever position you want...Sg or pg...Just don’t ignore his strengths. Give him some reps as the lead ball handler. It does seem they are giving him more so we’ll see.


Well he can't really dribble the ball right now and he's still trying to get comfortable with even being on the court. I understand people want the ball in his hands but it makes no sense to keep feeding the ball to somebody who doesn't even have the basics of dribbling down pat. That can mentally hurt him and impede his development even more at this stage but people aren't hearing it or don't understand it. It's like throwing someone in the middle of the ocean who has no ability to swim and saying swim back to land. This kid needs a life vest and personalized training with professionals to gain that skill.

I've said this in other threads that he's always struggled with his dribble since HS, and he's been a 2 sport athlete until last year. He's just a freak athlete who is finally settling/focusing on a single sport. He doesn't really know how to really play basketball.

If he was just turning over the ball by just passing the ball then I'd be okay with it. But with him just making basic dribbles and moves he immediately gets stripped/turnover way too many times in that fashion to force feed him like we're doing with Cole Anthony or did before with Victor Oladipo when he was here.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#177 » by DSN1423 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:22 pm

Let’s be honest about Suggs

- he is 12 games into his career
- he is playing a position/role he never has and in the worlds best competition, will take half a season at least to get comfortable with
- He is a winner and this will be one if not his first losing season, always tough to adjust to (although the pay checks help)
- getting the ball stolen isn’t going to ruin his confidence (99% of NBA players have supreme levels of confidence)
- Suggs needs the ball in transition and in the first 8 seconds of the shot clock even if he is turning it over. Let’s be real how many bad shots has Cole taken so far, they are basically shot turnovers. Would rather see Suggs grow into the role than be force fed Cole FGAs
- we are in the position to go through the growing pains of Suggs to yield higher results in the future.

Cole hogging the ball and taking bad shots sets a very bad precedent and will be hard to scale back from later down the line when we have everyone healthy and are in more contests late in game.

Who here actually sees Cole as our starting PG of the future? Most seem to think he is our Eddie House, Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford type scoring 6th man.

I don’t know why we are letting Cole get this head of steam up as primary pg, as it will only be harder for him to swallow when he eventually gets moved to the bench behind Fultz or Suggs.

We are actively witnessing what putting a rookie in a suitable role that plays to his strengths does, Franz has exceeded all expectations but it has been made easier for him to play a role similar to that he had at Michigan.

Suggs has all the makings to be our primary distributor and basically QB of the offence as he was in Gonzaga for the next 10 years. Cole does not, simple as that. Delaying the inevitable will only cause angst amongst Cole or Suggs and my chips are in on Suggs.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#178 » by Skin » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:00 am

ibraheim718 wrote:Can't believe how most of you just casually give Mosley a pass when he's arguably the worst coach in the league. His offense is way too restrictive and unimaginative and he's still running the same rotations and line ups he's been running since game 1 even though they've been responsible for some of the worst offensive basketball so far this season. He's such a boring conservative coach.

You guys are 24th in fast break points And 25th in assists per game.

To be blunt... He sucks.

We knew we were not bringing in a "win now" coach. That's what Skiles, Vogel and Clifford were about. It's not about winning or style of system right now. It's about player development and we've been seeing that.

I can't believe a Knicks fan is coming in and spewing crap here that he knows nothing about.... oh wait, actually I can.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#179 » by fendilim » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:23 am

p0peye wrote:I don't think anyone is suggesting he is SG and that we should groom him into one. So far his calling card has been defense, which is really good, but he simply struggles to function as PG in the NBA. He can't shoot and has problems handling the ball without getting stripped, but his instincts are not where they supposed to be IMO.

I was hoping that playing against bench guys would be a better environment where he can refine those skills, but from what I've seen so far, it is not the case. Admittedly. I've yet to watch a game in its entirety as I easily fall asleep - being in Ireland time zone is one challenge, but the way we play is bigger factor in me dosing off.

Still, too soon to tell, but early start has been a bumpy ride.

I beg to disagree on this one.

I do believe part of Suggs struggles have been adjusting to bigger, longer and stronger players at the two. He has struggled finishing around the rim as well. His lack of explosiveness doesn't help either.

Moving him at the one, I think solves this.

In college, he was a 6'4" PG. as a star football player out of high school, Suggs is already built faster and stronger than most players inside the NCAA.

In the NBA, we're talking about top athletes in the world already.

It is obviously concerning that Suggs struggles to handle the ball in transition etc, but I think all of this can be solved if we moved him at the 1. Playing at the two only forced him to rush his shots or overthink which leads to missed shots. Not to mention, on a much faster pace.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 12: Washington Wizards (8-3) at Orlando Magic (3-9) - 11/13/21 at 7pm ET 

Post#180 » by Bergmaniac » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:14 pm

Our starting lineup has played a grand total of 9 minutes in the 4th quarters this season. I know a lot of our games have been blowouts, but this is still a pretty absurd stat given their really impressive net rating and that they have all been healthy.

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