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I know we are just starting this season. But this question has already on the minds of many Magic fans

What should be the outcome at the end of next April? Do we have a busy summer again with a top pick. Or we celebrate the growth of our young players because they have leveled up.

To be honest, I hate tanking. I want this Magic team to win as many games as they can. Because winning builds characters and helps the players grow.

Besides tanking, we are in a very good situation next summer. We have huge cap space while having two First Round Picks.

We have a lot of young players. Maybe we flip some of them for a developing star like SGA

What do you think should be the plan this season?

I think there is somewhere in the middle between the two options.

With Orlando's current roster, I think we should spread the minutes and roles around and see who can do what and who is worth keeping. We may win more games by finding through exploration, a really good rotation or that a certain player excels playing a different role/position.

How we do in terms of wins and losses isnt as important as how we are playing to me. Are we playing with effort and intent the majority of the time? Is the group cohesive and cheering each other on? I'd take a 25 win team that's playing hard and has good chemistry than a team playing to win at all costs and destroying trade value of some players to eventually finish 10th in the East.

There is this fallacy that development comes from trying to win. Players still develop even when losing, its the coach and orgs job to keep the teams culture positive and upbeat with an eye on what we are building towards. Players get better (or exposed) with game time and there's no way around that. Our problem is that there is too many players on the team that need minutes to see what we have.

We have already seen what an impact paolo has had on this team and its future, why wouldnt we another shot adding another team changing talent?

Add another lottery pick - I think there will be several high end scorers and impact players in this draft. It’s also better to have good players on cheap rookie scale contracts.

Then use our cap space to somehow add quality veteran players who can help make the young guys a competitive team.

Then just let the team develop and grow, and adjust when needed.

How many lottery pick do we need?
Were already young and inexperienced enough to probably be in the lottery anyway, plus we got another pick likely in the teens from the Bulls this year, plus a future pick from the Nuggets, can we even retain all these guys?


At this point this team needs to learn how to win, we also need to attract free agents which is a lot easier when you're not a bottom 5 team.

I think this team has enough talent to contend in a few years without even adding talent, just a few vets around a core of Paolo, Franz, Wendel, Fultz and Suggs.

Well we aren’t very good so we’re going to naturally lose a ton of games. I would like us to get another high draft pick and get a legit SG. Hopefully use the opportunity to cut bait with some pieces (Isaac, Fultz, Bamba, Ross, Harris?) and hopefully surround our young core with shooting. I do think we should maybe bring in a veteran PG too like someone like a Rubio wouldn’t be bad.

I don’t necessarily like tanking, but it’s how this team is set up. We can still evaluate the talent on the roster and see who should stick with the core we have.

Tanking does not work objectively. It is foolish to propose that that is an aspiration, in my opinion.

get paycheck after paycheck,finding excuses,that is the plan,always was,always will be.

j_n wrote:How many lottery pick do we need?
Were already young and inexperienced enough to probably be in the lottery anyway, plus we got another pick likely in the teens from the Bulls this year, plus a future pick from the Nuggets, can we even retain all these guys?


At this point this team needs to learn how to win, we also need to attract free agents which is a lot easier when you're not a bottom 5 team.

I think this team has enough talent to contend in a few years without even adding talent, just a few vets around a core of Paolo, Franz, Wendel, Fultz and Suggs.

People will come to play for Orlando now to play with Paolo, so our record doesnt matter as much in attracting FA's. We are on the rise and people can see that.

I dont think we will attract guys on their backend of their career (Conley etc..) who would be looking for 'chips but I feel we could get players around the 28-30yo mark or third contract players.

To upgrade talent or draft position you need to consolidate all your capital and invest in areas that your team needs. For us that being, shooting and playmaking on offense plus some post D/rim protection. You need guys like Bamba/Isaac and their contracts.

I just think in our position where there are 11 players we kinda want to see what they become we need to play them and take the bumps along the way knowing that we have a star and at least 2 other starters and a couple of role players moving forward. We can sort through the weeds come trade deadline and offseason and condense our team into a 9-11 man rotation geared towards competing

There's what the plan should be and what the plan will be.

Should be:
Take the next two months to evaluate two things: 1) what kind of team style and shape will suit our core guys of Franz and Paolo
2) decide who on the roster fits that shape, who has positive value that could be used in a trade and who is no longer needed. Screw the phantom injuries for tanking, just get everyone in the floor and build their value.

Then, execute the moves. Put all the assets on the table and build a team to fit those two guys.

During this time Orlando won't win an excessive amount of games. They mightn't be bottom of the league but they'll be comfortably in the lottery.

What will happen:
More excessive injury layoffs
More tanking
Another high draftee to be coached up, prolonging the rebuild.
Underwhelming FA/trade moves that bring us the next Aminu/Ennis/Augustin/López
Money in the retirement plan for WeltHam

to me, we have to upgrade our guard positions. and count me as not a believer in Fultz as a good PG. i think he can be the bench guard, but to be successful we need guard upgrades. Also think moving Suggs to the bench where he doesnt feel like he is under a lot of pressure to perform may help his confidence.

So for the pro-tank crowd, let's follow the logic:

1. Let's say you tank but only end up with the #6 pick -- highly possible.
2. The #6 pick is not an impact player -- highly possible.
3. Do you tank again next season?
4. If not, why not? What changed? The team wasn't good enough to start trying to compete this season, and next season you have the same roster plus a low-impact rookie.

It's a never-ending cycle of hoping for luck when the odds are stacked against you. And free agents don't join tankers. They will join a team that is starting to compete and make some noise, even if they're not quite there yet.

If fans and media allow Weltman to continue kicking the can down the road, believe me, he will.

tiderulz wrote:to me, we have to upgrade our guard positions. and count me as not a believer in Fultz as a good PG. i think he can be the bench guard, but to be successful we need guard upgrades. Also think moving Suggs to the bench where he doesnt feel like he is under a lot of pressure to perform may help his confidence.

And-1

Whereas the PG question is a maybe - and all of us have opinions there; the SG is easily Orlando's worst starting slot. This team is hopeless without distance shooting at the 2-guard slot, in my opinion.

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Magic_Kingdom wrote:So for the pro-tank crowd, let's follow the logic:

1. Let's say you tank but only end up with the #6 pick -- highly possible.
2. The #6 pick is not an impact player -- highly possible.
3. Do you tank again next season?
4. If not, why not? What changed? The team wasn't good enough to start trying to compete this season, and next season you have the same roster plus a low-impact rookie.

It's a never-ending cycle of hoping for luck when the odds are stacked against you. And free agents don't join tankers. They will join a team that is starting to compete and make some noise, even if they're not quite there yet.

If fans and media allow Weltman to continue kicking the can down the road, believe me, he will.

And-2

Tanking does not work. Objective evidence supports that a well managed team will win. All the great teams are great because of skill not luck in player acquisition.


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drsd wrote:Tanking does not work. Objective evidence supports that a well managed team will win. All the great teams are great because of skill not luck in player acquisition.

It's a combination of both man. It's never been an either or scenario.

You look at pretty much every single good team in the league, and outside of the biggest market/desirable location teams like Los Angeles, New York/Brooklyn and Miami who are always in the mix to sign the top free agents, they're powered by guys they drafted.

You need luck in acquiring high end talent in the draft (and most high end draft talent comes at the top of the draft and the easiest way to get to the top of the draft is by tanking) and then you need to follow that up with skill to acquire the complimentary pieces.

Cleveland: Drafted Garland 5 and Mobley 3. Supplemented them with trades for Mitchell, Allen and LeVert.

Atlanta: Drafted Young No. 3. Supplemented him with trades for Capela and Murray.

Philadelphia: Drafted Embiid No. 3. Supplemented him with trades for Harris and Harden (and Butler before that).

New Orleans: Drafted Zion No. 1. Supplemented him with trades for McCollum and Valanciunas (and had the Davis trade chip to cash in and kick off the rebuild in the first place via landing Ingram)

Phoenix: Drafted Booker, Ayton, Bridges and Johnson all in the lottery. Supplemented that core with a trade for Chris Paul.

Memphis: Drafted Morant No. 2 and Jackson No. 4 and supplemented that core with great non-lotto drafting.

Boston: Drafted Tatum and Brown No. 3 overall (and Smart No. 6 overall) and have supplemented that core with trades and signings for veterans like White, Brogdon, Horford.

Then you have teams like Milwaukee and Denver who got EXTREMELY lucky and landed MVP's outside of the lottery, but that's not a strategy. That's just plain dumb luck.

For a franchise like Orlando which is never going to be able to outright sign a LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard or Kevin Durant as a free agent like the Lakers, Clippers and Nets did, they HAVE to find stars in the draft. Then once they find those stars, then they have to use their skill to surround those players with talent that compliments them through free agency and through trades and through player development on non-lotto draft picks.

Tank now. Then compete next yr.

Dont stay in between

tiderulz wrote:to me, we have to upgrade our guard positions. and count me as not a believer in Fultz as a good PG. i think he can be the bench guard, but to be successful we need guard upgrades. Also think moving Suggs to the bench where he doesnt feel like he is under a lot of pressure to perform may help his confidence.

So do you think Cole is the solution? Who is out there that you think we may target, perhaps Conley because he and their other guys have obliterated their tank and somehow have the best record in the West.

I think Fultz has the potential to be a good starting guard but when he is always injured it is hard to buy in completely. I think Cole is best off the bench and I don't know where Suggs fits. Last night was not a good night for him.

Knightro wrote:

drsd wrote:Tanking does not work. Objective evidence supports that a well managed team will win. All the great teams are great because of skill not luck in player acquisition.

It's a combination of both man. It's never been an either or scenario.

You look at pretty much every single good team in the league, and outside of the biggest market/desirable location teams like Los Angeles, New York/Brooklyn and Miami who are always in the mix to sign the top free agents, they're powered by guys they drafted.

You need luck in acquiring high end talent in the draft (and most high end draft talent comes at the top of the draft and the easiest way to get to the top of the draft is by tanking) and then you need to follow that up with skill to acquire the complimentary pieces.

Cleveland: Drafted Garland 5 and Mobley 3. Supplemented them with trades for Mitchell, Allen and LeVert.

Atlanta: Drafted Young No. 3. Supplemented him with trades for Capela and Murray.

Philadelphia: Drafted Embiid No. 3. Supplemented him with trades for Harris and Harden (and Butler before that).

New Orleans: Drafted Zion No. 1. Supplemented him with trades for McCollum and Valanciunas (and had the Davis trade chip to cash in and kick off the rebuild in the first place via landing Ingram)

Phoenix: Drafted Booker, Ayton, Bridges and Johnson all in the lottery. Supplemented that core with a trade for Chris Paul.

Memphis: Drafted Morant No. 2 and Jackson No. 4 and supplemented that core with great non-lotto drafting.

Boston: Drafted Tatum and Brown No. 3 overall (and Smart No. 6 overall) and have supplemented that core with trades and signings for veterans like White, Brogdon, Horford.

Then you have teams like Milwaukee and Denver who got EXTREMELY lucky and landed MVP's outside of the lottery, but that's not a strategy. That's just plain dumb luck.

For a franchise like Orlando which is never going to be able to outright sign a LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard or Kevin Durant as a free agent like the Lakers, Clippers and Nets did, they HAVE to find stars in the draft. Then once they find those stars, then they have to use their skill to surround those players with talent that compliments them through free agency and through trades and through player development on non-lotto draft picks.

You can explain this 100 times, but one dimensional thinkers will never understand. Some of them don’t want to understand and some of them just can’t understand.

Keep fighting the good fight.

drsd wrote:Tanking does not work. Objective evidence supports that a well managed team will win. All the great teams are great because of skill not luck in player acquisition.


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What objective evidence?

I argued over the summer this team was going to be too good to win. What I didn't expect was to be missing 5 rotational players for the first month. I really thought Fultz would be back in October, followed closely by Harris, and I thought JI would be cleared to play for the begining of the the season.

It seems like they are playing games with some of these injuries, but at the same time Suggs comes back from injury in no time same with Ross. It is also possible these guys are still injured. Cole's sounds pretty serious and lengthy.

I have a feeling once we get the Paolo, Fultz and Harris back and if we get anything at all from JI, we are just going to be too good to tank, and may even challenge for the play in.

But if these are truly games the front office is already playing with the availability of players, were in for a long season, because guys like Houstan and Kevon are just not good enough players to getting 20 minutes a game in the NBA. Actually both players have shown glimpses. Houstan does seem like a nice long-term piece, and Kevon looks like a tenacious defender, if he can knock down 3s he could be a keeper too....but way too many rookie mistakes at the moment

jonbob17 wrote:

drsd wrote:Tanking does not work. Objective evidence supports that a well managed team will win. All the great teams are great because of skill not luck in player acquisition.


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What objective evidence?

Such as Miami being too smart to tank, finding good NBA players just in G league or wherever like like Strus, Whiteside, Tyler Johnson, that dunk champ guy who beat AG, etc. And just trading for stars/good vets or signing them outright like Butler and Dragic and gradually building on from that rather than just bombing out.

Now I'm not sure if the Orlando market can be managed the exact same way as Miami because I believe that Miami just has some unique advantages that Orlando doesn't but I think that smarter management would have done better than simply tanking for a decade.