Is our young core good enough to finish the rebuild?

[MasterGMer]

I have been reading the Forum everyday now and the consensus I've got is that Paolo and Franz are the center piece of our franchise and rebuild. Maybe plus Wendell and Suggs as our young core.

But the question I've got is that how we are so sure, just based on less than one season's play?

I agree, both Paolo and Franz have deficiencies. Paolo's game right now is not so efficient. Plus Franz has been struggling making shots on his own. Are they really our franchise players?

Many people think after this season with a high lotto pick or two, we may nail the playoff spot next season? But are we doing the same mistake by being a future mediocre team just like we had with Vuc, Evan and AG?

The rebuild itself is for us to win a championship or at least become a contender not a first round playoff exit. Can our young core lead our team beyond just playoff? Or this is the next Vuc's team?

That question leads to this year's draft and Free Agency? We potentially could have two high lotto picks. Is Amen Thompson or Brandon Miller good enough to end our fate? Or we get lucky and have a shot at Victor Wembenyama, that will definitely change things. But are we that lucky?

Which means we are going to have even more youth next season with two FRPs in the rotation.

Also Fred Vanfleet? Is he really deserving that 30M+ salary we will give to him? I'd rather spend it on Kyrie or Harden, not FVV. That is some serious commitment plus we have to find a place for Fultz or Cole if that is the case.

So back to my topic for the thread?

Many people said we are one star player away from becoming playoff contenders? But is that it? Can we go further? Can we win a championship?

[fendilim]

This current roster? No. Just wait next year.

Either we use our picks and/or consolidation move is the icing on the cake.

Fultz/Suggs/Cole/Gary Harris are ok but can be improved theough a consolidation move or draft this year.

No need to hurry. No need to force ripen a fruit. It doesnt taste good.

[drsd]

I have been reading the Forum everyday now and the consensus I've got is that Paolo and Franz are the center piece of our franchise and rebuild. Maybe plus Wendell and Suggs as our young core.

But the question I've got is that how we are so sure, just based on less than one season's play?

If one was a GM and committed to Suggs, this is the rotation to keep for opening night next year:

Suggs/Anthony
xxxx/xxxx
F-Wagner/Bol
Banchero/Isaac
Carter/M-Wagner

Clearly this means that the off-season would be about a SG rotation. I am under the believe that Fultz, Okeke, one of the FRPs, and all the cap-space (Ross, Bamba, G-Harris, etc.) could lead to an excellent vet SG being acquired via the trade or SnT market and he would start in a prime role, and the other FRP could draft for the bench SG.

That is, the rebuild is not done, but the end of the tunnel can be seen.


Let's say that VanVleet is the target. Then either the Magic luck out with Dick sliding a pick or two, or the Magic is looking to Amen Thompson.

Suggs/Anthony
VanVleet/Thompson
F-Wagner/Bol
Banchero/Isaac
Carter/M-Wagner

That 10-man rotation with another 5 deep-bench players probably wins 50 games. Is it a championship contender? I am not sure. I don't think VanVleet is the type of SG to play off of Suggs. Frankly I think Gary Trent Jr.
is a better optional fit to Suggs, and is more in line with a direction that completes the starting five, over VanVleet. Heck, a much as I hate to admit it, Zach LaVine is a better fit over VanVleet.


..

[pepe1991]

It depends how front office plays their cards.
With salary cap and assets and future salaries and exstensions.

[jezzerinho]

Jason Tatum is 25.

Our core guys have a good few years of potential improvement ahead of them before they reaching Tatum's age.

When i first proposed we sign FVV, it wasn't with a view to winning a championship. It was to help make sure those 3 or 4 years of Franz and Paolo's development are maximised.

Orlando needs to continue drafting well and signing good players. No reason why they can't push all their clips in on a star (not that i believe Weltham will do that).

But in parallel there's a need to surround our best guys with players who can help them thrive, help them win games and hopefully give them some playoff experience.

Then, in 3 or 4 years, we'll know if we have a championship contender.

[basketballRob]

The Memphis Grizzlies are who we should strive to be. They have a team full of draft picks. They traded for Jonas with Marc Gasol, whom they flipped for Adam's. The big free agent signing for them was Tyus Jones for 3 years, $27M.

We have Wendell that we got in the same way.

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[pepe1991]

The Memphis Grizzlies are who we should strive to be. They have a team full of draft picks. They traded for Jonas with Marc Gasol, whom they flipped for Adam's. The big free agent signing for them was Tyus Jones for 3 years, $27M.

We have Wendell that we got in the same way.

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They had two lottery picks.

Desmond Bane -30th pick
Brooks 45th pick
Aldama 30th pick
Konchar - undrafted
Clarke- 21st pick

They find talents where others can't.

[eyriq]

I consider Paolo and Franz to be the core. Looking at their box score stats relative to similar players at the same stage of their careers I consider them to be top 5 positional talents already. Which implies that they are both future all-stars. I also would wager that Paolo will be a likely first team all-nba player.

I have Franz as the 4th most productive second year small forward since 2010.

1. 2010 Andrew Wiggins
2. 2021 Michael Porter Jr.
3. 2018 Brandon Ingram
4. 2023 Franz Wagner
5. 2019 Jayson Tatum
6. 2013 Chandler Parsons
7. 2021 De'Andre Hunter
8. 2010 Danilo Gallinari
9. 2015 Robert Covington
10. 2022 Saddiq Bey

I have Paolo as the 3rd most productive rookie power forward since 2010.

1. 2011 Blake Griffin
2. 2020 Zion Williamson
3. 2023 Paolo Banchero
4. 2013 Anthony Davis
5. 2019 Marvin Bagley III
6. 2016 Kristaps Porzingis
7. 2022 Evan Mobley
8. 2022 Scottie Barnes
9. 2019 Jaren Jackson Jr.
10. 2012 Kenneth Faried

[VFX]

The answer to this question relies on player development.

Paolo in year two should be significantly better than rookie Paolo.

Franz looked amazing at the beginning of the season. If he can become more consistent for 82 games in his third year, then we have something special.

I consider Suggs as part of the core. He’s gotten better this year and more efficient (nowhere to go but up from his rookie season). His defense is missed whenever he’s not on the court.

If those 3 guys continue to get better, which is usually the case with young players, Orlando is in a good spot.

This off-season is going to tell us a lot about how this FO views this roster. Do they make both draft picks? Do they consolidate a trade? Do they overpay a guy in Free agency? All questions that determine where the Magic are going.

With potentially two top draft picks Orlando might not be done building their “core”.

[JBSouthpaw]

The current moves lead me to think that the leadership thinks this group are enough to build around, and I agree.
They've cleared contracts that would have been noise during the summer (do we keep/ re-sign Mo, TRoss, etc.)
We have 3 better than average spots on great contracts for the next few years (Franz, Paolo and WCJ).

F&P are mature players, I'd hate to kick the can and draft younger players and wait for development.

It's time for us to overpay and get the player we want.
We can send out 10-20M of expiring/non guaranteed(Okeke, Fultz, Harris, etc) contracts pretty easy & numerous 1st Rd picks over the summer, and take back a lot more.

Hopefully they have a target.

[JoshuaPotter]

We easily have a better core then the last rebuild attempt that can only manage playoff exit. P+F seems to be a formula even with their young issues that if you just get serviceable people around them we are near .500.

Outside of Wendell. Who is in my opinion great at nothing and just a jack of all trades as a center. The PG + SG spot is somewhere between 20-30 in terms of depth. However Cole Anthony and Suggs coming off the bench is a lot better then what other teams have in a similar position. So depth of talent has helped us even though its not incredibly deep. Suggs at PG I am sure is bottom 5. Regardless of his defense.

Even after our moves, our coach was still going with his "Hail Hydra" .....I mean "I will play the hot hand" or "Dance with those who came to dance" style of coaching going 10/11 players deep off the bench.

Unless that is just Mosby's season style. Which I wont be mad at if we end up with two more rookies. I see a move to shuffle our current guard rotation. Maybe either see if rebounding develops out of Franz + Paolo but also try and bring a re-bounder off the bench.

[Last Guardian]

It is definitely not a guarantee that they will lead us anywhere, but they are off to a good start and have a ton of time to get better. Magic just has to be patient, unlike the first go around.

[dsg2021]

What can I say that doesn’t already echo what a lot of people said here.

For the sake of something crazy then, I think something very specifically to finish the rebuild for a title is going to be a four 1sts and Suggs for a young star player like SGA, or two 1sts and Franz for SGA. Maybe with the clean cap sheet, you can fill in even better around Banchero + SGA than you would have imagined.

But the main goal is, can you send six 1sts and someone less vital like Okeke for a young star player like SGA. And have the insanity of that full roster off the bat, with the likes of Banchero, SGA, Franz, Suggs, Isaac, etc.

Another name I’d keep a close eye on is Luka Magic. I have the draft pick selection of players like Luka, SGA and Haliburton in my memory because I wanted to trade into them, and when DAL did exactly that with Doncic they got a massive star but they also started the rebuild at a disadvantage with outgoing picks. And they didn’t win big in the increasingly less reliable Free Agency. They are losing depth and might falter soon. There’s some really exciting young stars out there like SGA and Trae, but I don’t think any young star is as impactful as Luka imho. And Banchero is an amazing complimenting point forward who guarantees doubles in the mid and post to score into or pass out of. It’s an easy feature of the offense for Luka to abuse a lot. Or who am I kidding? A Banchero, Franz team with a star guard like Trae or SGA and enough of the depth pieces still intact like almost all of Suggs, Isaac, WCJ, and Bol will go the same distance too.

I’ve always preferred the clean, methodical strategy of Free Agency blockbuster signings though. Getting a star player for nickels or dimes (S&T). But can it happen?

[eyriq]

Thinking about the Vucevic, Gordon, and Fournier core is also interesting. In the 18-19 season Vucevic was in his 8th season, Gordon his 5th, and Fournier his 7th. Using a similar 13 year window (2006 - 2019) I'd rank them by box score productivity like this:

Vucevic ranked against others centers in their 8th season
1. 2018 DeMarcus Cousins
2. 2012 Dwight Howard
3. 2019 Nikola Vucevic
4. 2016 Brook Lopez
5. 2012 Al Jefferson
6. 2009 Pau Gasol
7. 2016 DeAndre Jordan
8. 2016 Marc Gasol
9. 2006 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
10. 2015 Al Horford

Gordon ranked against other 5th season power forwards... He isn't top 10, he comes in at 19

Fournier ranked against other 7th season shooting guards... He isn't top 10, he comes in at 25

Which is to say that even during our best season with this core 2 out of 3 were not elite even relative to their comp set (similar position and experience). Gordon and Fournier did not quality as core players. Franz and Paolo are miles ahead of any of these three.

[Bakomagic]

We have a great 2.5 core pillars with Paolo, Franz, and the .5 being Suggs and interesting pieces in Isaac, Cole, and others. What makes Suggs interesting is that he can play the PG or SG position as either guard position will share duties with Franz and Paolo regarding shot creation. This gives us flexibility in finding the right guard via draft or free agency.

Fortunately or unfortunately we will be in the lotto again this year as we will make an effort but the hill to the play-in is to tough to climb imo. We will have two picks to find another potential pillar. I'd say package those and other assets if need be to get what you want, sign or trade for a near max or max vet and let's get our young core some playoff experience Ala Brown/Tatum.

Also, we should aim to De-escalate or Team option the near-max vet contract to allow for a pivot around Paolo/Franz's extension time. That way we can move on if need be and chase another vet star or hand over the reins to a deserving ring star in-house (draft pick)

Hypothetically: Sign FVV (overpay with Team option after 3rd year), trade own and CHI 2023 picks to CHA for #2 overall. Sign and trade Cole/Harris for B. Lopez 15 mill a year 3rd year Team option.

FVV/Scoot
Suggs/Houstan
Franz/Isaac
Paolo/Bol
Wcjr/B.Lopez/MoW

[MasterGMer]

I know the perception is to wait and patient for the rebuild. But where this we are going to make the playoff next year thing appeared to us. You know what that means? That means we say goodbye to the top picks and very soon ending the rebuild.

Or in another way, we are still rebuilding just not getting the top picks but player development for 2 or 3 years. Is that it?

However, I think this upcoming summer is going to decide the trajectory of this franchise. Are we committing 30M+ on a borderline All Star in FVV? Or we package our FRPs and Star player, maybe Franz, for a star SG in SGA or even Trae Young? TBH, I don't like too much youth and if we want to compete soon, we need a star player

[MasterGMer]

We have a great 2.5 core pillars with Paolo, Franz, and the .5 being Suggs and interesting pieces in Isaac, Cole, and others. What makes Suggs interesting is that he can play the PG or SG position as either guard position will share duties with Franz and Paolo regarding shot creation. This gives us flexibility in finding the right guard via draft or free agency.

Fortunately or unfortunately we will be in the lotto again this year as we will make an effort but the hill to the play-in is to tough to climb imo. We will have two picks to find another potential pillar. I'd say package those and other assets if need be to get what you want, sign or trade for a near max or max vet and let's get our young core some playoff experience Ala Brown/Tatum.

Also, we should aim to De-escalate or Team option the near-max vet contract to allow for a pivot around Paolo/Franz's extension time. That way we can move on if need be and chase another vet star or hand over the reins to a deserving ring star in-house (draft pick)

Hypothetically: Sign FVV (overpay with Team option after 3rd year), trade own and CHI 2023 picks to CHA for #2 overall. Sign and trade Cole/Harris for B. Lopez 15 mill a year 3rd year Team option.

FVV/Scoot
Suggs/Houstan
Franz/Isaac
Paolo/Bol
Wcjr/B.Lopez/MoW

I like the idea of us trading up a lot.

I am wondering what if Victor Wembenyama doesn't want to play for Houston or Spurs, do we need to give out 4 FRPs to get him?

[eyriq]

I know the perception is to wait and patient for the rebuild. But where this we are going to make the playoff next year thing appeared to us. You know what that means? That means we say goodbye to the top picks and very soon ending the rebuild.

Or in another way, we are still rebuilding just not getting the top picks but player development for 2 or 3 years. Is that it?

However, I think this upcoming summer is going to decide the trajectory of this franchise. Are we committing 30M+ on a borderline All Star in FVV? Or we package our FRPs and Star player, maybe Franz, for a star SG in SGA or even Trae Young? TBH, I don't like too much youth and if we want to compete soon, we need a star player

1. We want Franz and Paolo to develop into stars (they are on this trajectory, no reach here).

2. We want to find a point guard that can facilitate the offense and get the ball to Paolo and Franz. Should also be able to play defense and knock down a shot when needed.

3. We want to find a shooting guard that is a reliable shooter, can defend well, and move without the ball to create space for Paolo and Franz. Needs to be comfortable playing off the ball and not to reliant on having the ball in his hands to create offense.

4. We want WCJ to stay healthy and improve. He's already a great compliment to Paolo and Franz. He provides a physical presence, sets screens, rebounds, and plays solid defense. He can finish around the basket and knock down mid-range and three point shots to provide spacing.

Edit: we don't need another star but if we can get one, fine. We should focus on building around Paolo and Franz.

[JoshuaPotter]

I know the perception is to wait and patient for the rebuild. But where this we are going to make the playoff next year thing appeared to us. You know what that means? That means we say goodbye to the top picks and very soon ending the rebuild.

Or in another way, we are still rebuilding just not getting the top picks but player development for 2 or 3 years. Is that it?

However, I think this upcoming summer is going to decide the trajectory of this franchise. Are we committing 30M+ on a borderline All Star in FVV? Or we package our FRPs and Star player, maybe Franz, for a star SG in SGA or even Trae Young? TBH, I don't like too much youth and if we want to compete soon, we need a star player

1. We want Franz and Paolo to develop into stars (they are on this trajectory, no reach here).

2. We want to find a point guard that can facilitate the offense and get the ball to Paolo and Franz. Should also be able to play defense and knock down a shot when needed.

3. We want to find a shooting guard that is a reliable shooter, can defend well, and move without the ball to create space for Paolo and Franz. Needs to be comfortable playing off the ball and not to reliant on having the ball in his hands to create offense.

4. We want WCJ to stay healthy and improve. He's already a great compliment to Paolo and Franz. He provides a physical presence, sets screens, rebounds, and plays solid defense. He can finish around the basket and knock down mid-range and three point shots to provide spacing.

Edit: we don't need another star but if we can get one, fine. We should focus on building around Paolo and Franz.

Really do love what WCJ brings. He does nothing fancy, but doesn't really do anything wrong. Just a great piece. Gets all his stats just from the flow of the game and doesn't need to take over. Simply amazing to have that as one of our pieces.

I'm hoping his future contract doesn't bankrupt us.

[Ralof]

No,we still lack star talent.
but you can not hope in (damn)ping pong balls forever,one more draft and then play-in has to be the goal next season.

hopefully those 2 mummies in FO try something to improve the team and they just not collect paychecks.

with a pair of changes(and they have the assets to move) we could be a team between 41-46 W in a pair of years.