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Waive Isaac?

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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#81 » by Skin » Sat May 6, 2023 5:51 am

Skybox wrote:
Skin wrote:
Magic_Kingdom wrote:Apparently only $7 million of his salary is guaranteed next season, so if you waive him you free up approximately $10 million in salary-cap space. If the front office believes they could use that extra $10 mil in free agency this summer to improve the team, then there would be a benefit to waiving him.

If the Magic waive Isaac and he miraculously becomes healthy and thrives on another team, that would be unfortunate. But no one could accuse the front office of not being patient. Quite the opposite, they never should have signed him to this extension to begin with. There was no evidence at the time that he could stay on the court, and now, more than 2 years later, there still isn't.

And who's to say that moving on from Isaac wouldn't have intangible effects in the locker room and front office? Do you think the other players don't know that JI is going into his third straight season as the highest-paid player on the team? Imagine an office where the highest-paid employee never showed up to work for 3 straight years. For every report, presentation, business call, he's not there and you're a man down. It's not his fault because he's always sick. But it's been 3 years -- why is management paying him so much more than the rest of the guys who grind it out every day?

For the front office, they would get to go into a season without wondering if JI will play, and making decisions based on the possibility that he will. If Welt really believes Isaac will play next year, how is that impacting his view of the draft, free agency and trades? If he's wrong -- again -- what did we miss out on? What could he have done with the roster spot and extra cap space?

If they have no use for the cap room and money is no object -- meaning, the extra $10 mil for zero production doesn't concern ownership from a bottom-line perspective -- then yes, they will probably keep him. But I'm surprised so many posters believe keeping him is a no-brainer, or that waiving him would be an "emotional" decision.

People ran out of patience with Markelle too. Those people chose the wrong opinion.


Actually, Markelle was a lot better when rehabbing…we could assume he could shoot back then.

Leading all NBA Guards in FG% during the entire regular season not good enough? :roll:
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#82 » by MasterGMer » Sat May 6, 2023 6:37 am

Skin wrote:
Skybox wrote:
Skin wrote:People ran out of patience with Markelle too. Those people chose the wrong opinion.


Actually, Markelle was a lot better when rehabbing…we could assume he could shoot back then.

Leading all NBA Guards in FG% during the entire regular season not good enough? :roll:


Is that Fultz? Who is leading the NBA in FG%?

Never heard of that. If so, it is great
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#83 » by Skin » Sat May 6, 2023 7:54 am

MasterGMer wrote:
Skin wrote:
Skybox wrote:
Actually, Markelle was a lot better when rehabbing…we could assume he could shoot back then.

Leading all NBA Guards in FG% during the entire regular season not good enough? :roll:


Is that Fultz? Who is leading the NBA in FG%?

Never heard of that. If so, it is great

This is just PG but ESPN doesn't show them by Guards. Highest SG is Beal and his is lower.

Image
Jett Howard, Franz Wagner, Paolo Banchero, Jonathan Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#84 » by MasterGMer » Sat May 6, 2023 8:20 am

Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
Skin wrote:Leading all NBA Guards in FG% during the entire regular season not good enough? :roll:


Is that Fultz? Who is leading the NBA in FG%?

Never heard of that. If so, it is great

This is just PG but ESPN doesn't show them by Guards. Highest SG is Beal and his is lower.

Image


The highest FG% in the NBA by position? WOW

Why didn't you remind that to Markelle haters sooner?

Also, I'd like to stress the biggest challenge to Markelle is his 3 point shooting. He changed his form in the last two games of the regular season. I hope it stays. He also has to increase his volume as a 3 point shooter, especially if he wants to start with Paolo and Franz.

I'd like to see how a full summer of practice will do to his game. I am excited!
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#85 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 6, 2023 8:28 am

Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
Skin wrote:Leading all NBA Guards in FG% during the entire regular season not good enough? :roll:


Is that Fultz? Who is leading the NBA in FG%?

Never heard of that. If so, it is great

This is just PG but ESPN doesn't show them by Guards. Highest SG is Beal and his is lower.

Image


Because he doesn't shoot 3s?

Ben Simmons career FG% is 56%. Before he was broken he had season where he shot 58% FG

To suprise of nobody

Image

highest FG% two years ago was achived by two players who combined for 58 three point shots together.


This is execlly why nobody uses FG% as reference point any more.

Two players take 10 shots.
One takes 10 -2 point shots.
other takes 10- 3 point shots.
One shoots 4-10 FG/ 8 points added.
Other shoots 3-10FG for 3 and adds 9 points.

Despite fact one will have 10% higher percentage of FG (since FG% counts any FGA, 2FGA and 3FGA) second player will actually add more points on a table and have better efficiency.
This is like 4th grade math , not rocket science.

Jericho Sims just finished season where he shot 78% FG for a season. Do you know why? well, because he didn't attemp shot outside 10 feet. Also Deandre Jordan historically is one of "best shooters" by FG because he doesn't take shot if he can't dunk it.


To add more to this "high FG% = good player nonsense" . Steph Curry, if he didn't took any 3 point shot this year, would finish season on 58% FG. Would that make him better player? Or fact he can score at all levels makes him probably the best PG in basketball history, only challenged by Magic Johnson?
But he is not only one, if Lillard never shot 3s, he would have 58% FG as well.
How about Doncic? Well, 59%


So yea... Those players tend to have worst FG% (and be supreme players) because 3 point shot is more rewarding than 2 point shot but it impacts their FG%. That doesn't mean they are not way more effective scorers, actually very opposite.
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#86 » by MasterGMer » Sat May 6, 2023 8:38 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
Is that Fultz? Who is leading the NBA in FG%?

Never heard of that. If so, it is great

This is just PG but ESPN doesn't show them by Guards. Highest SG is Beal and his is lower.

Image


Because he doesn't shoot 3s?

Ben Simmons career FG% is 56%. Before he was broken he had season where he shot 58% FG

To suprise of nobody

Image

highest FG% two years ago was achived by two players who combined for 58 three point shots together.


This is execlly why nobody uses FG% as reference point any more.

Two players take 10 shots.
One takes 10 -2 point shots.
other takes 10- 3 point shots.
One shoots 4-10 FG/ 8 points added.
Other shoots 3-10FG for 3 and adds 9 points.

Despite fact one will have 10% higher percentage of FG (since FG% counts any FGA, 2FGA and 3FGA) second player will actually add more points on a table and have better efficiency.
This is like 4th grade math , not rocket science.

Jericho Sims just finished season where he shot 78% FG for a season. Do you know why? well, because he didn't attemp shot outside 10 feet. Also Deandre Jordan historically is one of "best shooters" by FG because he doesn't take shot if he can't dunk it.


To add more to this "high FG% = good player nonsense" . Steph Curry, if he didn't took any 3 point shot this year, would finish season on 58% FG. Would that make him better player? Or fact he can score at all levels makes him probably the best PG in basketball history, only challenged by Magic Johnson?
But he is not only one, if Lillard never shot 3s, he would have 58% FG as well.
How about Doncic? Well, 59%


So yea... Those players tend to have worst FG% (and be supreme players) because 3 point shot is more rewarding than 2 point shot but it impacts their FG%. That doesn't mean they are not way more effective scorers, actually very opposite.


I disagree Pepe.

If you want to do Math, you have to know the volume of shots he takes. Markelle Fultz shot 679 shots including 87 3pt shots taken.

If it is a small number, the percentage I can understand. But for a guy shot that many shots averaging 14 ppg is a nice stat to have.

It is not like he only attempts shots close to the basket and the stat is among all PGs. So your Jericho Sims argument is not correct. Also Markelle shot mid to long range 2 point shots more than anywhere he shoot. That says distance and his ability.

I agree, he is not a high volume 3 point shooter thus the higher percentage. But Fultz is improving on that area and he has a whole summer to work on his 3s.

My argument? Give him another season before his contract is up and we will know if he is a quality starting PG
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#87 » by Skin » Sat May 6, 2023 9:04 am

MasterGMer wrote:
The highest FG% in the NBA by position? WOW

Why didn't you remind that to Markelle haters sooner?

Also, I'd like to stress the biggest challenge to Markelle is his 3 point shooting. He changed his form in the last two games of the regular season. I hope it stays. He also has to increase his volume as a 3 point shooter, especially if he wants to start with Paolo and Franz.

I'd like to see how a full summer of practice will do to his game. I am excited!

Haters are gonna continue to hate because that argument is more about them salvaging what's left of their hating opinion. I agree that he needs to be a better 3pt shooter, but he raised his game across the board and I think this season showed us that he's still an ascending player. So there is reason to be optimistic.
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#88 » by Skybox » Sat May 6, 2023 11:53 am

Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
The highest FG% in the NBA by position? WOW

Why didn't you remind that to Markelle haters sooner?

Also, I'd like to stress the biggest challenge to Markelle is his 3 point shooting. He changed his form in the last two games of the regular season. I hope it stays. He also has to increase his volume as a 3 point shooter, especially if he wants to start with Paolo and Franz.

I'd like to see how a full summer of practice will do to his game. I am excited!

Haters are gonna continue to hate because that argument is more about them salvaging what's left of their hating opinion. I agree that he needs to be a better 3pt shooter, but he raised his game across the board and I think this season showed us that he's still an ascending player. So there is reason to be optimistic.



Sure. Haters gonna also point out the ppg vs others on that list, 3pt attempts, ft attempts, assists too…let’s not hijack all the threads with this debate apparently stuck on “we are seeing two completely different things”. I keep asking what other teams will come running if we made him available?
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#89 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 6, 2023 3:26 pm

MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:This is just PG but ESPN doesn't show them by Guards. Highest SG is Beal and his is lower.

Image


Because he doesn't shoot 3s?

Ben Simmons career FG% is 56%. Before he was broken he had season where he shot 58% FG

To suprise of nobody

Image

highest FG% two years ago was achived by two players who combined for 58 three point shots together.


This is execlly why nobody uses FG% as reference point any more.

Two players take 10 shots.
One takes 10 -2 point shots.
other takes 10- 3 point shots.
One shoots 4-10 FG/ 8 points added.
Other shoots 3-10FG for 3 and adds 9 points.

Despite fact one will have 10% higher percentage of FG (since FG% counts any FGA, 2FGA and 3FGA) second player will actually add more points on a table and have better efficiency.
This is like 4th grade math , not rocket science.

Jericho Sims just finished season where he shot 78% FG for a season. Do you know why? well, because he didn't attemp shot outside 10 feet. Also Deandre Jordan historically is one of "best shooters" by FG because he doesn't take shot if he can't dunk it.


To add more to this "high FG% = good player nonsense" . Steph Curry, if he didn't took any 3 point shot this year, would finish season on 58% FG. Would that make him better player? Or fact he can score at all levels makes him probably the best PG in basketball history, only challenged by Magic Johnson?
But he is not only one, if Lillard never shot 3s, he would have 58% FG as well.
How about Doncic? Well, 59%


So yea... Those players tend to have worst FG% (and be supreme players) because 3 point shot is more rewarding than 2 point shot but it impacts their FG%. That doesn't mean they are not way more effective scorers, actually very opposite.


I disagree Pepe.

If you want to do Math, you have to know the volume of shots he takes. Markelle Fultz shot 679 shots including 87 3pt shots taken.

If it is a small number, the percentage I can understand. But for a guy shot that many shots averaging 14 ppg is a nice stat to have.

It is not like he only attempts shots close to the basket and the stat is among all PGs. So your Jericho Sims argument is not correct. Also Markelle shot mid to long range 2 point shots more than anywhere he shoot. That says distance and his ability.

I agree, he is not a high volume 3 point shooter thus the higher percentage. But Fultz is improving on that area and he has a whole summer to work on his 3s.

My argument? Give him another season before his contract is up and we will know if he is a quality starting PG


Fultz shoots 54,5% for 2 points shots.
I already stated above that elite players like Lillard, Curry, Doncic shoot actually better 2FGA, but their volumen of 3s, that are more rewarding but also harder to make shots makes their raw FG% lower than Fultz who hardly ever shoot 3s.

Fultz, Ben SImmons , McConnell & other non-3 point taking players have higher FG% than normal guards only and just only because they don't shoot 3s.
You can ignore current players and just look at past players who didn't shoot 3s and watch their FG%.
Tony Parker highest FG% was 55% in season where he averaged 0,5 three point attemps.
Magic Johnson had 56,5% in single season FG% in season where he averaged 0,4 three point attemps.
Steve Nash ( one of greatest PG shooters) shot 53% FG in season where he averaged only 2,3 three point attemps a game.
Kobe Bryant career highest FG% was in season with lowest 3 FGA attemps.
Ignoring rookie year, Lebron's 3 out of 4 highest FG% seasons happend with lowest amount of 3s.

it's simply logical and i don't understand what's there to argue.

Average nba player shoots:
around 60% around rim ( inside 5 feet)
around 42% between 5-9 feet
around 41% between 10-14 feet
around 38% between 14-20 feet

3 point league's average 35-37% is depending of a season.

So if you are one of few PGs in nba who doens't shoot most important shot in basketball, that is, by it's nature lowest percentage shot, but also most rewarding shot, you will skyrocket through ranks of "highest FG%" .

When you change FG% that is metric nobody serious uses any more because it's outdated ( or people will argue Deandre JOrdan is best shooter basketball has ever seen? ) and put Fultz through modern data like TS they will figure Fultz doesn't crack top 80 guards in nba in efficiency and his actual efficiency is similar to corpses of Kyle Lowry and identical to bum Cam Reddish, worst than Cam Thomas who people view as "low efficiency chucker".
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#90 » by basketballRob » Sun May 7, 2023 10:55 am

Markelle, Cole, and Suggs have all improved every season. This could continue for the next couple of seasons.

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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#91 » by yoyojw17 » Mon May 8, 2023 9:19 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
Is that Fultz? Who is leading the NBA in FG%?

Never heard of that. If so, it is great

This is just PG but ESPN doesn't show them by Guards. Highest SG is Beal and his is lower.

Image


Because he doesn't shoot 3s?

Ben Simmons career FG% is 56%. Before he was broken he had season where he shot 58% FG

To suprise of nobody

Image

highest FG% two years ago was achived by two players who combined for 58 three point shots together.


This is execlly why nobody uses FG% as reference point any more.

Two players take 10 shots.
One takes 10 -2 point shots.
other takes 10- 3 point shots.
One shoots 4-10 FG/ 8 points added.
Other shoots 3-10FG for 3 and adds 9 points.

Despite fact one will have 10% higher percentage of FG (since FG% counts any FGA, 2FGA and 3FGA) second player will actually add more points on a table and have better efficiency.
This is like 4th grade math , not rocket science.

Jericho Sims just finished season where he shot 78% FG for a season. Do you know why? well, because he didn't attemp shot outside 10 feet. Also Deandre Jordan historically is one of "best shooters" by FG because he doesn't take shot if he can't dunk it.


To add more to this "high FG% = good player nonsense" . Steph Curry, if he didn't took any 3 point shot this year, would finish season on 58% FG. Would that make him better player? Or fact he can score at all levels makes him probably the best PG in basketball history, only challenged by Magic Johnson?
But he is not only one, if Lillard never shot 3s, he would have 58% FG as well.
How about Doncic? Well, 59%


So yea... Those players tend to have worst FG% (and be supreme players) because 3 point shot is more rewarding than 2 point shot but it impacts their FG%. That doesn't mean they are not way more effective scorers, actually very opposite.


who is to say that he's not getting better either. The guy is coming back from an inconsistent stretch of injuries that have obviously impacted the trajectory of his career. The most recent being a freaking TOE stump injury. Missed training camp and the first 20 games of the season. IF he didn't miss that time and was healthy, this season could have been a lot different. Even within the end of the season... we saw an uptick in his play during the last 22 games. So YES... celebrate his positives and hope for growth in all other areas.

We will see what the FO thinks about him. If we see an early extension agreement... i'm guessing they truly believe in what he is and what he can still grow into. :-)
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#92 » by pepe1991 » Mon May 8, 2023 10:29 am

yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:This is just PG but ESPN doesn't show them by Guards. Highest SG is Beal and his is lower.

Image


Because he doesn't shoot 3s?

Ben Simmons career FG% is 56%. Before he was broken he had season where he shot 58% FG

To suprise of nobody

Image

highest FG% two years ago was achived by two players who combined for 58 three point shots together.


This is execlly why nobody uses FG% as reference point any more.

Two players take 10 shots.
One takes 10 -2 point shots.
other takes 10- 3 point shots.
One shoots 4-10 FG/ 8 points added.
Other shoots 3-10FG for 3 and adds 9 points.

Despite fact one will have 10% higher percentage of FG (since FG% counts any FGA, 2FGA and 3FGA) second player will actually add more points on a table and have better efficiency.
This is like 4th grade math , not rocket science.

Jericho Sims just finished season where he shot 78% FG for a season. Do you know why? well, because he didn't attemp shot outside 10 feet. Also Deandre Jordan historically is one of "best shooters" by FG because he doesn't take shot if he can't dunk it.


To add more to this "high FG% = good player nonsense" . Steph Curry, if he didn't took any 3 point shot this year, would finish season on 58% FG. Would that make him better player? Or fact he can score at all levels makes him probably the best PG in basketball history, only challenged by Magic Johnson?
But he is not only one, if Lillard never shot 3s, he would have 58% FG as well.
How about Doncic? Well, 59%


So yea... Those players tend to have worst FG% (and be supreme players) because 3 point shot is more rewarding than 2 point shot but it impacts their FG%. That doesn't mean they are not way more effective scorers, actually very opposite.


who is to say that he's not getting better either. The guy is coming back from an inconsistent stretch of injuries that have obviously impacted the trajectory of his career. The most recent being a freaking TOE stump injury. Missed training camp and the first 20 games of the season. IF he didn't miss that time and was healthy, this season could have been a lot different. Even within the end of the season... we saw an uptick in his play during the last 22 games. So YES... celebrate his positives and hope for growth in all other areas.

We will see what the FO thinks about him. If we see an early extension agreement... i'm guessing they truly believe in what he is and what he can still grow into. :-)


All those would be valid excuses , but excuses non less, if we talk about 3rd year player.

Instad we talk about player drafted 6 years ago, who is entering his 7th season. Much younger players than him are stars, superstars already.
if we talk about point guards, in context of career 0,4 threes made on 27,8% . Only serious conversation starts with " that bench player". Everything else is waste of time.
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#93 » by MasterGMer » Mon May 8, 2023 10:48 am

pepe1991 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Because he doesn't shoot 3s?

Ben Simmons career FG% is 56%. Before he was broken he had season where he shot 58% FG

To suprise of nobody

Image

highest FG% two years ago was achived by two players who combined for 58 three point shots together.


This is execlly why nobody uses FG% as reference point any more.

Two players take 10 shots.
One takes 10 -2 point shots.
other takes 10- 3 point shots.
One shoots 4-10 FG/ 8 points added.
Other shoots 3-10FG for 3 and adds 9 points.

Despite fact one will have 10% higher percentage of FG (since FG% counts any FGA, 2FGA and 3FGA) second player will actually add more points on a table and have better efficiency.
This is like 4th grade math , not rocket science.

Jericho Sims just finished season where he shot 78% FG for a season. Do you know why? well, because he didn't attemp shot outside 10 feet. Also Deandre Jordan historically is one of "best shooters" by FG because he doesn't take shot if he can't dunk it.


To add more to this "high FG% = good player nonsense" . Steph Curry, if he didn't took any 3 point shot this year, would finish season on 58% FG. Would that make him better player? Or fact he can score at all levels makes him probably the best PG in basketball history, only challenged by Magic Johnson?
But he is not only one, if Lillard never shot 3s, he would have 58% FG as well.
How about Doncic? Well, 59%


So yea... Those players tend to have worst FG% (and be supreme players) because 3 point shot is more rewarding than 2 point shot but it impacts their FG%. That doesn't mean they are not way more effective scorers, actually very opposite.


who is to say that he's not getting better either. The guy is coming back from an inconsistent stretch of injuries that have obviously impacted the trajectory of his career. The most recent being a freaking TOE stump injury. Missed training camp and the first 20 games of the season. IF he didn't miss that time and was healthy, this season could have been a lot different. Even within the end of the season... we saw an uptick in his play during the last 22 games. So YES... celebrate his positives and hope for growth in all other areas.

We will see what the FO thinks about him. If we see an early extension agreement... i'm guessing they truly believe in what he is and what he can still grow into. :-)


All those would be valid excuses , but excuses non less, if we talk about 3rd year player.

Instad we talk about player drafted 6 years ago, who is entering his 7th season. Much younger players than him are stars, superstars already.
if we talk about point guards, in context of career 0,4 threes made on 27,8% . Only serious conversation starts with " that bench player". Everything else is waste of time.


Comon, Pepe. What yoyojw17 wants to say is we need to add some bit of context in judging a player like Fultz. He is injured most of his career, including the start of the season with a toe injury.

Also, Fultz has elevated his game a ton since his return. I think him ranking Top 2 in FG% is no joke. It is a proof of his efficiency.

Yes, he was a low volume 3 pt shooter. But I also think this offseason is going to change a lot of that area and that is my hope

btw Fultz is easily a quality player for us this past year and the reason of us making the jump
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#94 » by pepe1991 » Mon May 8, 2023 11:33 am

MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
who is to say that he's not getting better either. The guy is coming back from an inconsistent stretch of injuries that have obviously impacted the trajectory of his career. The most recent being a freaking TOE stump injury. Missed training camp and the first 20 games of the season. IF he didn't miss that time and was healthy, this season could have been a lot different. Even within the end of the season... we saw an uptick in his play during the last 22 games. So YES... celebrate his positives and hope for growth in all other areas.

We will see what the FO thinks about him. If we see an early extension agreement... i'm guessing they truly believe in what he is and what he can still grow into. :-)


All those would be valid excuses , but excuses non less, if we talk about 3rd year player.

Instad we talk about player drafted 6 years ago, who is entering his 7th season. Much younger players than him are stars, superstars already.
if we talk about point guards, in context of career 0,4 threes made on 27,8% . Only serious conversation starts with " that bench player". Everything else is waste of time.


Comon, Pepe. What yoyojw17 wants to say is we need to add some bit of context in judging a player like Fultz. He is injured most of his career, including the start of the season with a toe injury.

Also, Fultz has elevated his game a ton since his return. I think him ranking Top 2 in FG% is no joke. It is a proof of his efficiency.

Yes, he was a low volume 3 pt shooter. But I also think this offseason is going to change a lot of that area and that is my hope

btw Fultz is easily a quality player for us this past year and the reason of us making the jump


Again, high FG% doesn't mean player is efficient.

His 56% TS didn't crack top 80 on gaurd's list.
His FG% is high because he doesn't shoot 3s. If other elite guards stopped shooting 3s they would surpass him even in that category as well, but there isn't elite guard without at least average 3 ball.

Fultz efficiency ( TS%) is still below league's average.

If fultz can improve his 3 point shot it would be great but it would also mean his "TOS" was nothing but cute excuse all those years.
I don't think TOS is excuse, i think he simply can't shoot 3s because his condition simply doesn't allow him to use force required to hit 3 point shot , that's why his 3 point shooting is so ugly looking.

I pray the god we make playoffs next year BEFORE Magic resign him so fans can see everything wrong with PG who can't shoot in live action ( because i assume watching Westbrook, Morant, Simmons in current and previous playoff seasons it soo much to ask i guess !? :dontknow: )

And fact he is often hurt isn't argument for him but against him. Yet somehow now it's been used as argument for him. Because not being able to play is good thing now?

Compared to other serious PGs in nba, Fultz is backup. As starter he puts clear ceiling on team that isn't high. Now, there has always been portion of people here who want to watch XY player player despite fact that player wracks team and makes team worst ( Elfrid Payton era). And it's fine. But on good team, Fultz isn't starter. Everything else about him is fluff. Like Payton's triple doubles.

And since i'm mentioning rotting turds, Payton was 5th in FG% IN 2017-18 season. Guess who was first ( Ben Simmons).
And guess who was 7th? Ish Smith. Who averaged just 1,2 three point attemps a game.

Sheesh, it's almost like... not shooting 3s boosts your FG%?
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#95 » by Skybox » Mon May 8, 2023 11:36 am

Fultz plays within himself. He recognizes his limitations and is efficient…the limitations are the problem.

Gary Harris shoots over 40% from 3 but on too low a volume because he’s very selective and doesn’t take bad shots…people here (correctly) consider Harris’ lack of volume a very limiting factor in his role with ORL.

We need more from both spots…it’s reminiscent of Weltman. If you don’t take any shots, nobody can criticize you for missing.
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#96 » by MasterGMer » Mon May 8, 2023 11:41 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
All those would be valid excuses , but excuses non less, if we talk about 3rd year player.

Instad we talk about player drafted 6 years ago, who is entering his 7th season. Much younger players than him are stars, superstars already.
if we talk about point guards, in context of career 0,4 threes made on 27,8% . Only serious conversation starts with " that bench player". Everything else is waste of time.


Comon, Pepe. What yoyojw17 wants to say is we need to add some bit of context in judging a player like Fultz. He is injured most of his career, including the start of the season with a toe injury.

Also, Fultz has elevated his game a ton since his return. I think him ranking Top 2 in FG% is no joke. It is a proof of his efficiency.

Yes, he was a low volume 3 pt shooter. But I also think this offseason is going to change a lot of that area and that is my hope

btw Fultz is easily a quality player for us this past year and the reason of us making the jump


Again, high FG% doesn't mean player is efficient.

His 56% TS didn't crack top 80 on gaurd's list.
His FG% is high because he doesn't shoot 3s. If other elite guards stopped shooting 3s they would surpass him even in that category as well, but there isn't elite guard without at least average 3 ball.

Fultz efficiency ( TS%) is still below league's average.

If fultz can improve his 3 point shot it would be great but it would also mean his "TOS" was nothing but cute excuse all those years.
I don't think TOS is excuse, i think he simply can't shoot 3s because his condition simply doesn't allow him to use force required to hit 3 point shot , that's why his 3 point shooting is so ugly looking.

I pray the god we make playoffs next year BEFORE Magic resign him so fans can see everything wrong with PG who can't shoot in live action ( because i assume watching Westbrook, Morant, Simmons in current and previous playoff seasons it soo much to ask i guess !? :dontknow: )

And fact he is often hurt isn't argument for him but against him. Yet somehow now it's been used as argument for him. Because not being able to play is good thing now?


So is Mason Plumlee ranking NO.1 in TS% and Devin Booker rank 39th in TS% mean anything to you? Sigh...
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#97 » by pepe1991 » Mon May 8, 2023 11:54 am

MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
Comon, Pepe. What yoyojw17 wants to say is we need to add some bit of context in judging a player like Fultz. He is injured most of his career, including the start of the season with a toe injury.

Also, Fultz has elevated his game a ton since his return. I think him ranking Top 2 in FG% is no joke. It is a proof of his efficiency.

Yes, he was a low volume 3 pt shooter. But I also think this offseason is going to change a lot of that area and that is my hope

btw Fultz is easily a quality player for us this past year and the reason of us making the jump


Again, high FG% doesn't mean player is efficient.

His 56% TS didn't crack top 80 on gaurd's list.
His FG% is high because he doesn't shoot 3s. If other elite guards stopped shooting 3s they would surpass him even in that category as well, but there isn't elite guard without at least average 3 ball.

Fultz efficiency ( TS%) is still below league's average.

If fultz can improve his 3 point shot it would be great but it would also mean his "TOS" was nothing but cute excuse all those years.
I don't think TOS is excuse, i think he simply can't shoot 3s because his condition simply doesn't allow him to use force required to hit 3 point shot , that's why his 3 point shooting is so ugly looking.

I pray the god we make playoffs next year BEFORE Magic resign him so fans can see everything wrong with PG who can't shoot in live action ( because i assume watching Westbrook, Morant, Simmons in current and previous playoff seasons it soo much to ask i guess !? :dontknow: )

And fact he is often hurt isn't argument for him but against him. Yet somehow now it's been used as argument for him. Because not being able to play is good thing now?


So is Mason Plumlee ranking NO.1 in TS% and Devin Booker rank 39th in TS% mean anything to you? Sigh...


Execlly. How many shots Mason Plumlee took that he couldn't dunk?
How many 3s he made?

How many points Plumlee scored?

Ben Simmons as PG had 58% FG, 60% TS 3rd season. He attemped 7 threes that year and took 466 out of 647 shots ( 73%) inside 3 feet. And lead PGs in FG%.

:lol:

You still don't see that you debunk yourself?

3 point shot is most rewarding AND most difficult shot. if you exclude 3s from your arsenal you are excluding shot with lowest probability to get in, so it effects your FG% in positive way to NOT shoot them.

You used 7 footer Plumlee to bring home "TS means jack s***, his efficiency is higher than Booker's who shoot 3s" and you can't see how it's oxymoron.
Plumlee shot 95,7% of all shots inside 10 feet. Matter of fact he had 115 dunks on 329 shots. He shoots 77% inside 3 and around 95% on dunk attemps.

All true shooting /FG/ eFG leaders are centers. Because level of difficultiy of their shots is by far lowest.

So in perfect world you want as many dunks as possible ( Duuh?!), but that's 100% not objective, realistic nor sain expetation for point guards who are by default some of the smallest players out there. They get most of their value - at 3 point shooting and drawing fouls.
That's why Steph Curry is the most influencal player after Jordan. He expended the game to where we are at today, 40% of all shots in basketball are 3s. If your starting PG can't shoot nor make 3s, you aren't going to have good time compeating.

There really isn't anything i can add to this debate. If you need more evidence of why PG needs jumpshot, i suggest watching 6'3 , non athletic, can't dunk but can shoot lights out PG vs 6'10, 45 inch vertical, jump out of building , built like a tank- but no jumpshot matchup. Curry vs Ben Simmons. I know who i would take, Do you?
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#98 » by MagicMatic » Mon May 8, 2023 2:57 pm

Lmfao

A) why is this thread 5 pages?

B) why are we talking about an overpaid role player in a thread asking if we should waive Isaac?
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#99 » by yoyojw17 » Mon May 8, 2023 3:32 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Again, high FG% doesn't mean player is efficient.

His 56% TS didn't crack top 80 on gaurd's list.
His FG% is high because he doesn't shoot 3s. If other elite guards stopped shooting 3s they would surpass him even in that category as well, but there isn't elite guard without at least average 3 ball.

Fultz efficiency ( TS%) is still below league's average.

If fultz can improve his 3 point shot it would be great but it would also mean his "TOS" was nothing but cute excuse all those years.
I don't think TOS is excuse, i think he simply can't shoot 3s because his condition simply doesn't allow him to use force required to hit 3 point shot , that's why his 3 point shooting is so ugly looking.

I pray the god we make playoffs next year BEFORE Magic resign him so fans can see everything wrong with PG who can't shoot in live action ( because i assume watching Westbrook, Morant, Simmons in current and previous playoff seasons it soo much to ask i guess !? :dontknow: )

And fact he is often hurt isn't argument for him but against him. Yet somehow now it's been used as argument for him. Because not being able to play is good thing now?


So is Mason Plumlee ranking NO.1 in TS% and Devin Booker rank 39th in TS% mean anything to you? Sigh...


Execlly. How many shots Mason Plumlee took that he couldn't dunk?
How many 3s he made?

How many points Plumlee scored?

Ben Simmons as PG had 58% FG, 60% TS 3rd season. He attemped 7 threes that year and took 466 out of 647 shots ( 73%) inside 3 feet. And lead PGs in FG%.

:lol:

You still don't see that you debunk yourself?

3 point shot is most rewarding AND most difficult shot. if you exclude 3s from your arsenal you are excluding shot with lowest probability to get in, so it effects your FG% in positive way to NOT shoot them.

You used 7 footer Plumlee to bring home "TS means jack s***, his efficiency is higher than Booker's who shoot 3s" and you can't see how it's oxymoron.
Plumlee shot 95,7% of all shots inside 10 feet. Matter of fact he had 115 dunks on 329 shots. He shoots 77% inside 3 and around 95% on dunk attemps.

All true shooting /FG/ eFG leaders are centers. Because level of difficultiy of their shots is by far lowest.

So in perfect world you want as many dunks as possible ( Duuh?!), but that's 100% not objective, realistic nor sain expetation for point guards who are by default some of the smallest players out there. They get most of their value - at 3 point shooting and drawing fouls.
That's why Steph Curry is the most influencal player after Jordan. He expended the game to where we are at today, 40% of all shots in basketball are 3s. If your starting PG can't shoot nor make 3s, you aren't going to have good time compeating.

There really isn't anything i can add to this debate. If you need more evidence of why PG needs jumpshot, i suggest watching 6'3 , non athletic, can't dunk but can shoot lights out PG vs 6'10, 45 inch vertical, jump out of building , built like a tank- but no jumpshot matchup. Curry vs Ben Simmons. I know who i would take, Do you?


And back to the point..... Let's see what the hell he can do when given a healthy chance. No puns intended. Is that too hard to thinks about instead of solely just focusing on one point. There are other ways to win. He played on a young flourishing team of guys that are still getting to know one another and have shown successes. Let's see how they mature before making quick decisions.

And no matter how many stats or complaining you might have.... Your vision and mine are NOT going to align with the FO. And if I had to guess... After all this time ... I think that they might lean towards seeing how deep this will go ... Instead of judging a returning PG to a losing team on just a 60 game stretch. Shoot. Even as the season goes on he looked better and.... MORE COMFORTABLE. That goes a long way and helps project the future.

And shoot ... We might be an off season away from a 6'4" PG that gets to the rim at will... Gets to his kill spot at will ... Shoots from 3.... Facilitates to his teammate.... Rebounds the ball ... And defends at a good rate.


#i'llwait
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Re: Waive Isaac? 

Post#100 » by yoyojw17 » Mon May 8, 2023 3:38 pm

MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
who is to say that he's not getting better either. The guy is coming back from an inconsistent stretch of injuries that have obviously impacted the trajectory of his career. The most recent being a freaking TOE stump injury. Missed training camp and the first 20 games of the season. IF he didn't miss that time and was healthy, this season could have been a lot different. Even within the end of the season... we saw an uptick in his play during the last 22 games. So YES... celebrate his positives and hope for growth in all other areas.

We will see what the FO thinks about him. If we see an early extension agreement... i'm guessing they truly believe in what he is and what he can still grow into. :-)


All those would be valid excuses , but excuses non less, if we talk about 3rd year player.

Instad we talk about player drafted 6 years ago, who is entering his 7th season. Much younger players than him are stars, superstars already.
if we talk about point guards, in context of career 0,4 threes made on 27,8% . Only serious conversation starts with " that bench player". Everything else is waste of time.


Comon, Pepe. What yoyojw17 wants to say is we need to add some bit of context in judging a player like Fultz. He is injured most of his career, including the start of the season with a toe injury.

Also, Fultz has elevated his game a ton since his return. I think him ranking Top 2 in FG% is no joke. It is a proof of his efficiency.

Yes, he was a low volume 3 pt shooter. But I also think this offseason is going to change a lot of that area and that is my hope

btw Fultz is easily a quality player for us this past year and the reason of us making the jump


Thanks... Exactly. You can't just look at stats and ignore the circumstances of the situation. Extreme situation...If I told you that prime Jordan lost to Dillon brooks in 1 on 1 .... 4 to 11.... I guess Dillon is better than him. BUT I forgot to include that he had 1 arm tied behind his back and missing a shoe.... I guess ... Context matters.

So simply staring at stats and ignoring particulars is not going to yield accurate results. But... The guy looked great for having played only so many game in 6 years... Most of which he was hampered with an unidentified ailment.... One knee injury and a stubbed toe. Give the guy a fair chance.

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