2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III

[drsd]

New CBA limits championship window for teams that are building from ground up.
For first few years your team is too young to win, and once they hit 6,7,8th year in nba, they become too expensive.

What's the right approach to team building under the new CBA?

1 mega star
+ 1 above average fringe allstar
+ bunch of role players

sounds like finanicially stable team


Almost no teams with 2 massive contracts can sustain ability to contend

ANd-1

The new CBA will look to Denver and Milwaukee as to what sustainable will look like. Teams like the Lakers, Golden St. and Boston are at their ends. I also think Philly cannot contend with the financial realities that come.

[Magic_Kingdom]

I’m hopeful but not optimistic that the Magic will consolidate this summer. Use the draft capital to trade for a gunner, sign a big in free agency, or Vice versa. No more projects. Free up the log jam at guard and install a legitimate starting backcourt.

[cedric76]

Just over on GSW board and financial realities hitting hard, will new GM be directed to take some action, while still trying to contend for a few years? Let's help


GSW sends Wiggins and #19
ORL sends #6 , Gary Harris (and simply absorbs Wiggins' deal)

Fultz/Cole/Cason Wallace(#11)
Wiggins/Suggs
Franz/Houstan/Okeke
Paolo/Isaac/M. Wagner
WCJ/Lively (#19)/Goga

...depending on Cole's extension talks, Isaac's health, Wallace's likelihood of being a long-term starter, etc...I'd be looking at further trades, perhaps in-season. More cap space next summer, particularly if we have to waive Isaac.

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

Zero interest in overrated Poole, WCJ isn't going anywhere

I like moody though

[tiderulz]

Just over on GSW board and financial realities hitting hard, will new GM be directed to take some action, while still trying to contend for a few years? Let's help


GSW sends Wiggins and #19
ORL sends #6 , Gary Harris (and simply absorbs Wiggins' deal)

Fultz/Cole/Cason Wallace(#11)
Wiggins/Suggs
Franz/Houstan/Okeke
Paolo/Isaac/M. Wagner
WCJ/Lively (#19)/Goga

...depending on Cole's extension talks, Isaac's health, Wallace's likelihood of being a long-term starter, etc...I'd be looking at further trades, perhaps in-season. More cap space next summer, particularly if we have to waive Isaac.

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

zero interest in Poole. he was signed to too big a contract. and i dont know him personally, but he seems to think he has Curry shooting and range and takes Curryesque shots that he cant make as frequently.

[MagicMatic]

The way the CBA is set up makes it so drafting well is a bit of a gift and a curse. Could be in a Boston scenario where you're not sure you want to pay Jaylen Brown so much money with Tatum so that you can't fill out your team because of two people taking up so much of your cap.

You get some cost-controlled years at very cheap but you have to start paying guys if they hit. This also isn't like the NFL where you can cheaply replace vets because NFL rookies and primes start pretty young and then flame out before 30. In the NBA, usually your guys' primes aren't until after their first contracts.

I think people are getting too caught up in the idea that players need super max deals. Tatum is deserving, Brown isn’t. There are like 6-7 guys that actually deserve “max”. Third and fourth options shouldn’t be making anywhere near that amount. Reality is going to hit these guys sooner than later.

To use the OKC example: all 5 of their starters shouldn’t be putting up numbers to look like first or second options. The only way that happens is if each guy is injured for a season at a time.

[MagicMatic]

Just over on GSW board and financial realities hitting hard, will new GM be directed to take some action, while still trying to contend for a few years? Let's help


GSW sends Wiggins and #19
ORL sends #6 , Gary Harris (and simply absorbs Wiggins' deal)

Fultz/Cole/Cason Wallace(#11)
Wiggins/Suggs
Franz/Houstan/Okeke
Paolo/Isaac/M. Wagner
WCJ/Lively (#19)/Goga

...depending on Cole's extension talks, Isaac's health, Wallace's likelihood of being a long-term starter, etc...I'd be looking at further trades, perhaps in-season. More cap space next summer, particularly if we have to waive Isaac.

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

Orlando would need to find another Center on as good of a deal as Carter for the proposal to make sense. Maybe that’s Lively(?)

On the other hand, I’d rather some other team stupid enough to take on Pooles contract be the ones to do it.

I also secretly hope nobody takes the Warriors up on any offer involving Poole because it would be funny and they deserve to keep him after years of dipping far beyond the luxury tax.

[eyriq]

I saw an interesting 5 stage model for team development.

Forming
Storming
Norming
Performing
Adjourning

This season would qualify as another year in the forming phase. I'd say the cutoff is 35 wins.

The storming phase is coming, probably as soon as next season, where we'll start seeing conflict and tension as we iron our roles and transition from a by committee offense to a star oriented offense.

[drsd]

I saw an interesting 5 stage model for team development.

Forming
Storming
Norming
Performing
Adjourning

This season would qualify as another year in the forming phase. I'd say the cutoff is 35 wins.

The storming phase is coming, probably as soon as next season, where we'll start seeing conflict and tension as we iron our roles and transition from a by committee offense to a star oriented offense.

I rank the Magic as "storming". In particular, if Orlando fails to win 40 games, I will deem the season unsuccessful.

Play-ins/offs of bust!

..

[The Effect]

Just over on GSW board and financial realities hitting hard, will new GM be directed to take some action, while still trying to contend for a few years? Let's help


GSW sends Wiggins and #19
ORL sends #6 , Gary Harris (and simply absorbs Wiggins' deal)

Fultz/Cole/Cason Wallace(#11)
Wiggins/Suggs
Franz/Houstan/Okeke
Paolo/Isaac/M. Wagner
WCJ/Lively (#19)/Goga

...depending on Cole's extension talks, Isaac's health, Wallace's likelihood of being a long-term starter, etc...I'd be looking at further trades, perhaps in-season. More cap space next summer, particularly if we have to waive Isaac.

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

For me, thats a definite no

I like pool and had high hopes for Kuminga and think he could still be good, but the fact that the warriors didnt even play him in 2 of the games vs the lakers and only played him at all in blowouts tells me that they dont view him very highly and that should say something
and 19 would be worthless to us, we already have 6 and 11 and theres no way our GM brings in 3 rookies and they prove it every year when they sell off our 2nd rounders before the draft even starts.

I wouldnt mind trading WC but im not trading fultz unless we are getting back a star (which we wouldnt, i understand that and know i overvalue him) and i dont see a star in either of those guys

[whatisacenter]

Spoiler:

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

Orlando would need to find another Center on as good of a deal as Carter for the proposal to make sense. Maybe that’s Lively(?)

On the other hand, I’d rather some other team stupid enough to take on Pooles contract be the ones to do it.

I also secretly hope nobody takes the Warriors up on any offer involving Poole because it would be funny and they deserve to keep him after years of dipping far beyond the luxury tax.

Spoiler:

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

zero interest in Poole. he was signed to too big a contract. and i dont know him personally, but he seems to think he has Curry shooting and range and takes Curryesque shots that he cant make as frequently.

Spoiler:

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

Zero interest in overrated Poole, WCJ isn't going anywhere

I like moody though

I appreciate the feedback.

For what it's worth I think Poole's off year had a lot to do with Draymond and believe he would flourish in a starting role on a younger team. He is durable, played all 82 games last season and 76 the year before, and has had his role constantly change from starting in place of Steph or Klay to coming off the bench. His numbers improved when he has consistent minutes in a defined roll.

I personally would prefer the Warriors let Draymond walk, trade expiring Klay and keep Poole but that seems unlikely with the messaging that has come out since the end of the season.

good luck next season.

[whatisacenter]

Spoiler:

I'm not against providing GSW some tax relief by taking on Wiggins (or potentially Poole), but I'm certainly not giving them the 6th overall pick to do it.

Dubs fan here, I can't see the Warriors salary dumping Wiggins at all. He is the second best player on the roster on the best value contract. Curry is untouchable and Wiggins is second on my list of Warriors to keep. Everyone else and the 19th pick should be available IMO but I think they want to keep the core together plus Wiggins/Looney.

Is WCJ in your long-term plans?

Would a Poole/Kuminga 19 get the Dubs close to WCJ/Fultz?

For me, thats a definite no

I like pool and had high hopes for Kuminga and think he could still be good, but the fact that the warriors didnt even play him in 2 of the games vs the lakers and only played him at all in blowouts tells me that they dont view him very highly and that should say something
and 19 would be worthless to us, we already have 6 and 11 and theres no way our GM brings in 3 rookies and they prove it every year when they sell off our 2nd rounders before the draft even starts.

I wouldnt mind trading WC but im not trading fultz unless we are getting back a star (which we wouldnt, i understand that and know i overvalue him) and i dont see a star in either of those guys

I respect Kerr but found his handling of Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody disappointing. The vets are allowed to make mistakes, bonehead turnovers and take shots out of the flow of the offense, granted they have earned it. But the young players were never allowed to play through their mistakes last season and I think it cost the Warriors in the playoffs.

For the record, I would prefer the Warriors keep Kuminga and Poole and let Draymond walk and trade Klay's expiring.

[Redwood]

What's the right approach to team building under the new CBA?

1 mega star
+ 1 above average fringe allstar
+ bunch of role players

sounds like finanicially stable team


Almost no teams with 2 massive contracts can sustain ability to contend

ANd-1

The new CBA will look to Denver and Milwaukee as to what sustainable will look like. Teams like the Lakers, Golden St. and Boston are at their ends. I also think Philly cannot contend with the financial realities that come.

Good. This era of the "super team" has been awful. Extremely boring and gave cowardly players like Lebron a cheap way to pad their legacy.

[neuraldarwinism]

welcome to the orlando magic, bruce brown

[cedric76]

I think OG is perfect fit to this team

Can allow Franz to play SG on offense and SF on defense

I would do 6+11 + Denver FRP for OG+13

Fultz
OG
Franz
Paolo
WCJ

With suggs, Cole, Chuma, suggs, Moe,goga, JI and 13 from the bench

[jonbob17]

What's the right approach to team building under the new CBA?

1 mega star
+ 1 above average fringe allstar
+ bunch of role players

sounds like finanicially stable team


Almost no teams with 2 massive contracts can sustain ability to contend

ANd-1

The new CBA will look to Denver and Milwaukee as to what sustainable will look like. Teams like the Lakers, Golden St. and Boston are at their ends. I also think Philly cannot contend with the financial realities that come.

So what you are saying with Denver and Milwaukee, you need a top 2 player in the league, probably top 10 of all time.

Look at Denver they, have the best player in the world on on a Super Max, two max rookie extensions in Murray and MPJ, and then Gordon at 4/87, and then the role players Caldwell Pope $15M per, and Bruce Brown $7M per.
Starters As a percentage of cap
Jokic 35%
Murray 25%
MPJ 25%
Gordon 15%
KCP 12%
Total 112% on starters

The cap next year is $134M (100%)
Tax Apron $162M (121%)
First Penalty $169M (126%)
2nd Penalty 179.5M (134%)

I'd say even Denver is going to have to rethink it's payroll. Of course they have the best player in the world, so yah they are going to be able to figure it out, but next year they only have 9% to spend on 10 players for just the tax apron.

Looking ahead to the Magic
Franz 25%
Paolo 25%
Suggs 20%
PG 20%
WCJ 9%
Total 99%

We are just going to need for Paolo and Franz to be playing near all star level early in their extension. Suggs, I am hoping comes in at a discount, but he really starts livingup to his potential. With Franz and Paolo playmaking, i think we get a more middle of the road PG, preferably one that can shoot, and WCJ, he'll be past his current deal, but 10% of cap on the center position should be about right regardless of who it is, unless they go by Nikola or Embiid.

The thing we aren't considering here is what happens to player contracts. Teams aren't going to give every fringe player a max deal, because half the league isn't going to have a blank check. Teams are going to have to get smart, and that is going to impact contracts.

The Magic are in excellent position. Franz and Paolo, and hopefully Suggs should be able to out perform their rookie extension deals. Hopefully our picks from this year turn into good basketball players with 8-9 years of team control.

Yes the teams with the biggest advantages will be those with the absolute best players in the world. Even at 35% of the cap deals they provide value.

Paolo is going into his extension in 2026-27, then we have likely 5 years of 25%. That's a pretty big runway.

[tiderulz]

I think OG is perfect fit to this team

Can allow Franz to play SG on offense and SF on defense

I would do 6+11 + Denver FRP for OG+13

Fultz
OG
Franz
Paolo
WCJ

With suggs, Cole, Chuma, suggs, Moe,goga, JI and 13 from the bench

people keep saying this. I dont think Franz can play SG. and i would be hesitant to trade 3 firsts for OG and #13, when OG can walk after 1 year.

[pepe1991]

1 mega star
+ 1 above average fringe allstar
+ bunch of role players

sounds like finanicially stable team


Almost no teams with 2 massive contracts can sustain ability to contend

ANd-1

The new CBA will look to Denver and Milwaukee as to what sustainable will look like. Teams like the Lakers, Golden St. and Boston are at their ends. I also think Philly cannot contend with the financial realities that come.

So what you are saying with Denver and Milwaukee, you need a top 2 player in the league, probably top 10 of all time.

Look at Denver they, have the best player in the world on on a Super Max, two max rookie extensions in Murray and MPJ, and then Gordon at 4/87, and then the role players Caldwell Pope $15M per, and Bruce Brown $7M per.
Starters As a percentage of cap
Jokic 35%
Murray 25%
MPJ 25%
Gordon 15%
KCP 12%
Total 112% on starters

The cap next year is $134M (100%)
Tax Apron $162M (121%)
First Penalty $169M (126%)
2nd Penalty 179.5M (134%)

I'd say even Denver is going to have to rethink it's payroll. Of course they have the best player in the world, so yah they are going to be able to figure it out, but next year they only have 9% to spend on 10 players for just the tax apron.

Looking ahead to the Magic
Franz 25%
Paolo 25%
Suggs 20%
PG 20%
WCJ 9%
Total 99%

We are just going to need for Paolo and Franz to be playing near all star level early in their extension. Suggs, I am hoping comes in at a discount, but he really starts livingup to his potential. With Franz and Paolo playmaking, i think we get a more middle of the road PG, preferably one that can shoot, and WCJ, he'll be past his current deal, but 10% of cap on the center position should be about right regardless of who it is, unless they go by Nikola or Embiid.

The thing we aren't considering here is what happens to player contracts. Teams aren't going to give every fringe player a max deal, because half the league isn't going to have a blank check. Teams are going to have to get smart, and that is going to impact contracts.

The Magic are in excellent position. Franz and Paolo, and hopefully Suggs should be able to out perform their rookie extension deals. Hopefully our picks from this year turn into good basketball players with 8-9 years of team control.

Yes the teams with the biggest advantages will be those with the absolute best players in the world. Even at 35% of the cap deals they provide value.

Paolo is going into his extension in 2026-27, then we have likely 5 years of 25%. That's a pretty big runway.

Nuggets menaged to sign Jokic on not designed max exstension, that allowed them to resign Jamal and MPjr on designed maxes.

I expect them to move MPjr or Gordon at some point as salary reliefs, but they will probably by that point win at least 1 championship ( pretty much situation where Bucks are now, but doesn't really matter since they won chip ).

If Paolo makes allstar or all nba team that would skyrocket his designed max into Derrick Rose rule and he would be eligiable for +200M exstension in 5th year. That early sucess didn't do any good for Atlanta ( Trae ) and Dallas ( Luka).

[Skybox]

I think OG is perfect fit to this team

Can allow Franz to play SG on offense and SF on defense

I would do 6+11 + Denver FRP for OG+13

Fultz
OG
Franz
Paolo
WCJ

With suggs, Cole, Chuma, suggs, Moe,goga, JI and 13 from the bench

I like the reasoning and the fit. My concerns are that OG (allegedly) grumbled about his role in the offensive hierarchy in TOR and is also coming up on FA in one season (Player Option). But I love the type of player...could be a bit of a flight risk, but maybe not if it's a mutual love-fest as he can defend anyone, in a physical, overwhelming manner and shoot 3's all day. If we "knew" we could extend him for less than 25m/yr and he was ok with conceding offensively to Paolo and Franz, the fit is great.

I like the "Franz as SG on offense..." thing - personally, I think he's the best PG on the team right now. I'd happily start the possession with the ball in Franz' hands. 3 all-defense candidates if Suggs continues his growth and Isaac can play 15m game.

[cedric76]

I think OG is perfect fit to this team

Can allow Franz to play SG on offense and SF on defense

I would do 6+11 + Denver FRP for OG+13

Fultz
OG
Franz
Paolo
WCJ

With suggs, Cole, Chuma, suggs, Moe,goga, JI and 13 from the bench

I like the reasoning and the fit. My concerns are that OG (allegedly) grumbled about his role in the offensive hierarchy in TOR and is also coming up on FA in one season (Player Option). But I love the type of player...could be a bit of a flight risk, but maybe not if it's a mutual love-fest as he can defend anyone, in a physical, overwhelming manner and shoot 3's all day. If we "knew" we could extend him for less than 25m/yr and he was ok with conceding offensively to Paolo and Franz, the fit is great.

I like the "Franz as SG on offense..." thing - personally, I think he's the best PG on the team right now. I'd happily start the possession with the ball in Franz' hands. 3 all-defense candidates if Suggs continues his growth and Isaac can play 15m game.

Just imagine the pressure on the ball when we have the following line up

Suggs, OG, Franz, PB and WCJ (or JI if healthy)

[cedric76]

I think OG is perfect fit to this team

Can allow Franz to play SG on offense and SF on defense

I would do 6+11 + Denver FRP for OG+13

Fultz
OG
Franz
Paolo
WCJ

With suggs, Cole, Chuma, suggs, Moe,goga, JI and 13 from the bench

people keep saying this. I dont think Franz can play SG. and i would be hesitant to trade 3 firsts for OG and #13, when OG can walk after 1 year.

He already plays SG (SG and SF is a wash nowadays), but now OG would guard the opposing guard