The Boston blue print, what we have already & what we need

[three3d]

Paolo Banchero is our Jason Tatum, but year 2 Paolo was better than year 2 Tatum. Tatum’s second season stat line was15.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.1 apg compared to Banchero’s 22.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.4 apg kinda crazy Paolo is already on that path. Paolo’s game is so similar to Tatum’s we can copy Boston and build around that blue print.
Jalen Suggs = Derrick White ?
Jonathan Issac = Porzingis ?
We’re missing some savvy veterans like Jrue and Horford but those guys come later, I also don’t have a comparison for Franz yet. We need a guy with a chip on his shoulder to be our Jaylen Brown. We need a guy that’s a #2 but is capable of being the Finals MVP. I can’t say Franz is that guy nor can I say he can’t be that guy. We need at least three sharp shooters that can hit three’s in their sleep. Using Boston’s blue print are we really that far away? One of the hardest pieces to copy we already have in Paolo, we just need that second guy, how hard will he be to find? Do we already have him?

[three3d]

Terrence Shannon Jr. !! Hear me out, what if this could be our “chip on his shoulder “ guy? You talk about a kid that had the weight of the world on his shoulder, had serious legal matters going on BUT still played well and carried his team. It would have been understandable for him to buckle under that level of stress. Now his name is cleared and honestly it’s still probably going to cost him in the draft. He’s got that chip on his shoulder and he probably wants to prove himself and all the non believers out there. Could that be our Jaylen Brown??

[Knightro]

Paolo Banchero is our Jason Tatum, but year 2 Paolo was better than year 2 Tatum. Tatum’s second season stat line was15.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.1 apg compared to Banchero’s 22.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.4 apg kinda crazy Paolo is already on that path. Paolo’s game is so similar to Tatum’s we can copy Boston and build around that blue print.
Jalen Suggs = Derrick White ?
Jonathan Issac = Porzingis ?
We’re missing some savvy veterans like Jrue and Horford but those guys come later, I also don’t have a comparison for Franz yet. We need a guy with a chip on his shoulder to be our Jaylen Brown. We need a guy that’s a #2 but is capable of being the Finals MVP. I can’t say Franz is that guy nor can I say he can’t be that guy. We need at least three sharp shooters that can hit three’s in their sleep. Using Boston’s blue print are we really that far away? One of the hardest pieces to copy we already have in Paolo, we just need that second guy, how hard will he be to find? Do we already have him?

I am always weary about the "Player X in Year 2 is so much further along than Player Y in Year 2" stuff.

In 2018-2019, the league average PPG was 111.2. Now it's 114.2. Scoring is up. Defense is down. Offensive numbers are inflated across the board.

Tatum's USG% in Year 2 was also only 22.2% as well. He played his first two seasons with Kyrie who was a massively high usage player.

And of course the most glaring and painfully obvious difference is that Tatum and Brown were both high volume, high accuracy 3PT shooters by year 2 and beyond. Something that neither Paolo or Franz have really shown yet.

[three3d]

Paolo Banchero is our Jason Tatum, but year 2 Paolo was better than year 2 Tatum. Tatum’s second season stat line was15.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.1 apg compared to Banchero’s 22.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.4 apg kinda crazy Paolo is already on that path. Paolo’s game is so similar to Tatum’s we can copy Boston and build around that blue print.
Jalen Suggs = Derrick White ?
Jonathan Issac = Porzingis ?
We’re missing some savvy veterans like Jrue and Horford but those guys come later, I also don’t have a comparison for Franz yet. We need a guy with a chip on his shoulder to be our Jaylen Brown. We need a guy that’s a #2 but is capable of being the Finals MVP. I can’t say Franz is that guy nor can I say he can’t be that guy. We need at least three sharp shooters that can hit three’s in their sleep. Using Boston’s blue print are we really that far away? One of the hardest pieces to copy we already have in Paolo, we just need that second guy, how hard will he be to find? Do we already have him?

I am always weary about the "Player X in Year 2 is so much further along than Player Y in Year 2" stuff.

In 2018-2019, the league average PPG was 111.2. Now it's 114.2. Scoring is up. Defense is down. Offensive numbers are inflated across the board.

Tatum's USG% in Year 2 was also only 22.2% as well. He played his first two seasons with Kyrie who was a massively high usage player.

And of course the most glaring and painfully obvious difference is that Tatum and Brown were both high volume, high accuracy 3PT shooters by year 2 and beyond. Something that neither Paolo or Franz have really shown yet.

All fair and valid points, but how about the eyeball test? They are so similar in shot selection, passing ( Paolo probably better though) passes leading to buckets, and even the missing of easy shots around the rim. Watching both of them play I find myself screaming ,” no that’s a horrible bad shot” but they make these ridiculous shots look easy. Not to mention they in the past had worked out together, one could see why their game would mirror one another’s. At worst with the inflated numbers across the league we are saying they are at least equal to each other in their perspective second seasons. Thats a damn good thing to be able to say .

[The Effect]

Terrence Shannon Jr. !! Hear me out, what if this could be our “chip on his shoulder “ guy? You talk about a kid that had the weight of the world on his shoulder, had serious legal matters going on BUT still played well and carried his team. It would have been understandable for him to buckle under that level of stress. Now his name is cleared and honestly it’s still probably going to cost him in the draft. He’s got that chip on his shoulder and he probably wants to prove himself and all the non believers out there. Could that be our Jaylen Brown??

If that case does in fact cause him to fall, hed be a great pick at 18

[VFX]

I hate this comparison for so many reasons. Its starting to get tiring.

Paolo and Franz are forwards and Suggs is a great defensive guard like D.White. Thats where the comparisons end.

Tatum and Brown have entirely different games than Paolo and Franz.

Tatum averages 8 3pa per game over his career sitting at .375%.
Paolo averages 4 3pa per game so far sitting at .320%.

Tatum simply plays outside-in, while Paolo plays inside-out.
History tells us which of those approaches are more successful in modern basketball.

Brown and Franz are not remotely comparable.

If you want to make this comparison, and hope Orlando follows a similar blueprint, then you should be praying for a high(er) usage point guard that can actually move the basketball and hit outside shots. Al Horford is in a different stratosphere than Wendell Carter. Carter's best case scenario would be Horford now because there is no way he will ever be close to how good he was when he was in Atlanta 2009-2018.

[tiderulz]

Paolo Banchero is our Jason Tatum, but year 2 Paolo was better than year 2 Tatum. Tatum’s second season stat line was15.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.1 apg compared to Banchero’s 22.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.4 apg kinda crazy Paolo is already on that path. Paolo’s game is so similar to Tatum’s we can copy Boston and build around that blue print.
Jalen Suggs = Derrick White ?
Jonathan Issac = Porzingis ?
We’re missing some savvy veterans like Jrue and Horford but those guys come later, I also don’t have a comparison for Franz yet. We need a guy with a chip on his shoulder to be our Jaylen Brown. We need a guy that’s a #2 but is capable of being the Finals MVP. I can’t say Franz is that guy nor can I say he can’t be that guy. We need at least three sharp shooters that can hit three’s in their sleep. Using Boston’s blue print are we really that far away? One of the hardest pieces to copy we already have in Paolo, we just need that second guy, how hard will he be to find? Do we already have him?

is this what it is? every year people strive to copy what just won?
no effort to copy what Denver did? or Milwaukee, Golden State, LA?

just need to work to consistently improve

[fendilim]

Well, the first step is really to fill the team with 3 point shooters… and make sure they catch heat in the playoffs.

[three3d]

I hate this comparison for so many reasons. Its starting to get tiring.

Paolo and Franz are forwards and Suggs is a great defensive guard like D.White. Thats where the comparisons end.

Tatum and Brown have entirely different games than Paolo and Franz.

Tatum averages 8 3pa per game over his career sitting at .375%.
Paolo averages 4 3pa per game so far sitting at .320%.

Tatum simply plays outside-in, while Paolo plays inside-out.
History tells us which of those approaches are more successful in modern basketball.

Brown and Franz are not remotely comparable.

If you want to make this comparison, and hope Orlando follows a similar blueprint, then you should be praying for a high(er) usage point guard that can actually move the basketball and hit outside shots. Al Horford is in a different stratosphere than Wendell Carter. Carter's best case scenario would be Horford now because there is no way he will ever be close to how good he was when he was in Atlanta 2009-2018.

Umm I think we are on the same page , I never said Suggs was D. White but he’s got similarities with the defensive capabilities. Most of what you said I totally agree with in fact except for Paolo. I don’t feel like Paolo plays inside out at all, in fact I think he plays to much outside as it is. Paolo is 6’10” while Tatum is 6’8”, Paolo should be driving and cutting more to the hoop but he takes some really tough shots. Probably because of the way defenses play him right now because we have no perimeter threats.

[three3d]

Paolo Banchero is our Jason Tatum, but year 2 Paolo was better than year 2 Tatum. Tatum’s second season stat line was15.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.1 apg compared to Banchero’s 22.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.4 apg kinda crazy Paolo is already on that path. Paolo’s game is so similar to Tatum’s we can copy Boston and build around that blue print.
Jalen Suggs = Derrick White ?
Jonathan Issac = Porzingis ?
We’re missing some savvy veterans like Jrue and Horford but those guys come later, I also don’t have a comparison for Franz yet. We need a guy with a chip on his shoulder to be our Jaylen Brown. We need a guy that’s a #2 but is capable of being the Finals MVP. I can’t say Franz is that guy nor can I say he can’t be that guy. We need at least three sharp shooters that can hit three’s in their sleep. Using Boston’s blue print are we really that far away? One of the hardest pieces to copy we already have in Paolo, we just need that second guy, how hard will he be to find? Do we already have him?

is this what it is? every year people strive to copy what just won?
no effort to copy what Denver did? or Milwaukee, Golden State, LA?

just need to work to consistently improve

What all does Denver, Milwaukee, Golden State, and LA all have in common? A rare generational talent. If you don’t have one of those freaks for lack off better terms you have to try copying what has won the best you can.

[eyriq]

The beauty of using Boston as the Orlando aspirational archetype is that most of their playmaking is generated through big wings, and their defense is focused on the point of attack through terrific defenders at the guard positions.

I think their success definitely validates our build, and we as fans should file it away in our good vibes.

[JoshuaPotter]

No. Stop it. We don't need to copy another teams success. We need to beat them at our own game. Whatever that ends up being.

I'm adding "Team x won the championship how do we mimic their success" posts to the drinking game.

[Bensational]

I am always weary about the "Player X in Year 2 is so much further along than Player Y in Year 2" stuff.

In 2018-2019, the league average PPG was 111.2. Now it's 114.2. Scoring is up. Defense is down. Offensive numbers are inflated across the board.

Tatum's USG% in Year 2 was also only 22.2% as well. He played his first two seasons with Kyrie who was a massively high usage player.

And of course the most glaring and painfully obvious difference is that Tatum and Brown were both high volume, high accuracy 3PT shooters by year 2 and beyond. Something that neither Paolo or Franz have really shown yet.

You can always compare Paolo year 2 to Tatum year 3? Much more similar roles and USG. Paolo more of a playmaker who’s advantage comes from drawing FTs, and Tatum as more of a scorer who’s advantage comes from 3pt shooting. Tatum has had a USG of 30+ for the last 4 seasons and still hasn’t cracked 5apg. Tatum only started getting to Paolo’s FTr last season.

Our advantage is on the inside, with improvements needed on the perimeter. Their advantage was on the perimeter, with improvements needed on the inside. I think it’s reasonable to believe that what Tatum has done to improve his playmaking and FTr, Paolo could match with improvements to his 3pt shooting.

[purpleswordfish]

If Franz Wagner was as good as Jaylen Brown, it'd probably be a better comp. Just to play along, let's assume Wagner and Banchero are the two best players on this team for the foreseeable future like Tatum and Brown. Then the formula is surrounding them with younger players that perform their role well (think Derrick White for Boston or Suggs for Orlando). Those players have to get incrementally better while on affordable deals. The best place for the Magic to get those players is through the draft. I know people on this board are wanting to limit drafting more players and bringing younger players onto the roster. But, that's where you're going to get affordable rotation players.

Then, you would have to do like Boston and bring in a few veterans via free agent/trade like Holiday and Porzingis. What Boston did well with that is they got those players without giving up pieces that ruined the rest of the rotation. Plus, both Holiday and Porzingis are on attractive deals related to their production.

Retain your stars.
Develop your young rotation players and clearly define roles.
Bring in the right veterans without detrimentally affecting the above two.

It's easier said than done.

[VFX]

If Franz Wagner was as good as Jaylen Brown, it'd probably be a better comp. Just to play along, let's assume Wagner and Banchero are the two best players on this team for the foreseeable future like Tatum and Brown. Then the formula is surrounding them with younger players that perform their role well (think Derrick White for Boston or Suggs for Orlando). Those players have to get incrementally better while on affordable deals. The best place for the Magic to get those players is through the draft. I know people on this board are wanting to limit drafting more players and bringing younger players onto the roster. But, that's where you're going to get affordable rotation players.

Then, you would have to do like Boston and bring in a few veterans via free agent/trade like Holiday and Porzingis. What Boston did well with that is they got those players without giving up pieces that ruined the rest of the rotation. Plus, both Holiday and Porzingis are on attractive deals related to their production.

Retain your stars.
Develop your young rotation players and clearly define roles.
Bring in the right veterans without detrimentally affecting the above two.

It's easier said than done.

This is correct.

The biggest difference is that Orlando is not Boston.

Boston is a franchise that takes risks.. like...

-Trading Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford, and a late first for Derrick White

-Trading Malcolm Brogdon, Robert Williams, and 2 future frps for Jrue Holiday.

-Trading Kemba Walker and a 2021 #16 pick for Al Horford.

-Trading Marcus Smart and trash for Porzingis.

This front office doesnt make those moves. They dont take risks.
This fan base cant decide whether Fultz should get another contract to be a 4th string point guard in season 6.

Orlando has to be built through the draft.

[Residual-Heat]

Paolo Banchero is our Jason Tatum, but year 2 Paolo was better than year 2 Tatum. Tatum’s second season stat line was15.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.1 apg compared to Banchero’s 22.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 5.4 apg kinda crazy Paolo is already on that path. Paolo’s game is so similar to Tatum’s we can copy Boston and build around that blue print.
Jalen Suggs = Derrick White ?
Jonathan Issac = Porzingis ?
We’re missing some savvy veterans like Jrue and Horford but those guys come later, I also don’t have a comparison for Franz yet. We need a guy with a chip on his shoulder to be our Jaylen Brown. We need a guy that’s a #2 but is capable of being the Finals MVP. I can’t say Franz is that guy nor can I say he can’t be that guy. We need at least three sharp shooters that can hit three’s in their sleep. Using Boston’s blue print are we really that far away? One of the hardest pieces to copy we already have in Paolo, we just need that second guy, how hard will he be to find? Do we already have him?

I am always weary about the "Player X in Year 2 is so much further along than Player Y in Year 2" stuff.

In 2018-2019, the league average PPG was 111.2. Now it's 114.2. Scoring is up. Defense is down. Offensive numbers are inflated across the board.

Tatum's USG% in Year 2 was also only 22.2% as well. He played his first two seasons with Kyrie who was a massively high usage player.

And of course the most glaring and painfully obvious difference is that Tatum and Brown were both high volume, high accuracy 3PT shooters by year 2 and beyond. Something that neither Paolo or Franz have really shown yet.

I agree with most of what you said, but wanted to add an important stat. They won 49 games with prime Kyrie and Smart in his 5th year. Paolo and Franz didnt have a Kyrie, Suggs is in his 3rd year and the team still won 47 games. Lets give our guys some credit. They had a great year. No they havent shot the 3 as well as Tatum and Brown, but I would say they were better almost everywhere else.

[eyriq]

I'm going to rank Franz, Paolo, Tatum, and Brown at each age they had in common. I'll use a score I cooked up to rank them as well. Zero is average.

20
Paolo 2.5
Tatum 2.2
Franz 1.8
Brown -2.4

21
Tatum 5.0
Paolo 4.7
Franz 2.9
Brown 1.2

I'd have 22 year old Franz (3.7) a mile ahead of 22 year old Brown (-0.1) as well btw.

Moral to this story? We are in a great position. Tatum also has the extra year of experience in the NBA on Paolo.

[CarraT]

I'm going to rank Franz, Paolo, Tatum, and Brown at each age they had in common. I'll use a score I cooked up to rank them as well. Zero is average.

20
Paolo 2.5
Tatum 2.2
Franz 1.8
Brown -2.4

21
Tatum 5.0
Paolo 4.7
Franz 2.9
Brown 1.2

I'd have 22 year old Franz (3.7) a mile ahead of 22 year old Brown (-0.1) as well btw.

Moral to this story? We are in a great position. Tatum also has the extra year of experience in the NBA on Paolo.

Oh nice. So we can sit back and relax, running it all back

[pepe1991]

Several false informations here.

Rookie Tatum didn't have Kyrie ( in playoffs).

Kyrie went on season ending surgery in late March. Tatum led Celtics in scoring, as a rookie. To Eastern Conference Finals.

That year, 2017-18 "prime Smart" wasn't that prime. He was very no 3 and all D- bench guy.
He averaged 10 ppg on 37% FG & 30 % for 3.
He was in fact even worst in playoffs- 9,8 ppg on 33,6% FG.


Aside from that, Boston has fundamentally different approach to sport , compared to Magic.
They are driven by common sense & logic. At times it looks cold blooded and calculated.

How they got Brown & Tatum? By trading one of their most monumental players in their history - Pierce (and KG), who also won them first ring in what, 25-30 years at that point?.

When they felt it hurts their team and future, Isaiah Thomas was removed without "fairwell contract". NBA media hated them for that.
When they found better player than "heart & soul of a team" - Smart, Smart was goner.



Magic ride their Fast & Furious #Family crap for better or worst. Since we are in building stage, that #family thing works in their favor, aside from few hickups ( Resign of Bamba for no reason, resing of injuried Isaac 3 months post ACL tear, overpaying Fultz based on one mediocre season etc). But i hope their #Family won't become issue when they make trades ( or don't make trades) based on feelings instad of baskeball common sense & logic.

[drsd]

The Boston blue print

Two combo guards, two elite wings, and a stable Center core. Yep: this is Orlando's path.