RealGM

eyriq wrote:AB is 4th in sweater vest points. Suggs is 7th.

You are out of touch on ABs value.

Since it's clear that ESPN's Net Points metric is the new thing eyriq is really into, I decided to do a little experiment...

I went back and looked at all 31 Magic victories this year and re-graded the Sweater Vest points purely based on that and compared it to the fan voting...

Win 1 Miami
Net Points: Paolo, Franz, Carter
Fan Voting: Paolo, Harris, Franz

Win 2 Brooklyn
Net Points: Carter, Franz, Moritz
Fan Voting: Franz, Moritz, Black

Win 3 Indiana
Net Points: Paolo, Suggs, Franz
Fan Voting: Paolo, Suggs, Black

Win 4 New Orleans
Net Points: Franz, Goga, Moritz
Fan Voting: Franz, Black, Goga

Win 5 Washington
Net Points: Franz, Black, Goga
Fan Voting: Franz, Goga, Black

Win 6 Charlotte
Net Points: Moritz, Franz, Suggs
Fan Voting: Franz, Suggs, Moritz

Win 7 Indiana
Net Points: Goga, Franz, Isaac
Fan Voting: Franz, Isaac, Black

Win 8 Philadelphia
Net Points: Franz, Moritz, Isaac
Fan Voting: Franz, Isaac, Moritz

Win 9 Phoenix
Net Points: Black, Franz, Goga
Fan Voting: Franz, Black, Goga

Win 10 LA Lakers
Net Points: Franz, Moritz, Suggs
Fan Voting: Franz, Suggs, Moritz

Win 11 Detroit
Net Points: Moritz, Franz, Harris
Fan Voting: Franz, Moritz, Isaac

Win 12 Charlotte
Net Points: Franz, Moritz, Cole
Fan Voting: Franz, Cole, Isaac

Win 13 Chicago
Net Points: KCP, Suggs, Moritz
Fan Voting: Suggs, KCP, Goga

Win 14 Brooklyn
Net Points: KCP, Franz, Goga
Fan Voting: Franz, KCP, Goga

Win 15 Brooklyn
Net Points: Goga, KCP, Carter
Fan Voting: KCP, Goga, Franz

Win 16 Philadelphia
Net Points: Isaac, Moritz, Da Silva
Fan Voting: Franz, Isaac, Suggs

Win 17 Phoenix
Net Points: Goga, Carter, Jett (!!)
Fan Voting: Goga, Suggs, Cole

Win 18 Miami - FIRST GAME WHERE FAN VOTING MATCHED NET POINTS EXACTLY
Net Points: Cole, KCP, Queen
Fan Voting: Cole, KCP, Queen

Win 19 Boston
Net Points: Carter, Da Silva, Black
Fan Voting: Queen, Da Silva, Carter

Win 20 Brooklyn
Net Points: Goga, Da Silva, Houstan (!!)
Fan Voting: Da Silva, Goga, Cole

Win 21 Toronto
Net Points: Da Silva, KCP, Isaac
Fan Voting: Da Silva, Cole, KCP

Win 22 New York
Net Points: Carter, KCP, Isaac
Fan Voting: Cole, Carter, Isaac

Win 23 Philadelphia
Net Points: Isaac, Paolo, Queen
Fan Voting: Isaac, Paolo, Cole

Win 24 Detroit
Net Points: Franz, Isaac, Suggs
Fan Voting: Franz, Paolo, Isaac

Win 25 Sacramento
Net Points: Franz, Goga, Paolo
Fan Voting: Franz, Paolo, Black

Win 26 San Antonio
Net Points: Black, Isaac, Franz
Fan Voting: Franz, Black, Isaac

Win 27 Charlotte
Net Points: Paolo, Carter, Black
Fan Voting: Black, Paolo, Carter

Win 28 Atlanta
Net Points: Carter, Paolo, Goga
Fan Voting: Paolo, Franz, Cole

Win 29 Washington
Net Points: Goga, Black, Paolo
Fan Voting: Franz, Black, Goga

Win 30 Milwaukee
Net Points: Paolo, Cole, TDS
Fan Voting: Cole, Paolo, Franz

Win 31 New Orleans - SECOND GAME WHERE FAN VOTING MATCHED NET POINTS EXACTLY
Net Points: Paolo, Franz, CoJo
Fan Voting: Paolo, Franz, CoJo


VESTS VIA FAN VOTE
Franz 16
Paolo 4
Cole 3
TDS 2
Suggs 1
KCP 1
Goga 1
Queen 1
Isaac 1
Black 1

VESTS VIA NET POINTS
Franz 7 (-9)
Paolo 5 (+1)
Goga 5 (+4)
Carter 4 (+4)
Black 2 (+1)
Isaac 2 (+1)
KCP 2 (+1)
Moritz 2 (+2)
TDS 1 (-1)
Cole 1 (-2)
Suggs 0 (-1)
Queen 0 (-1)

CUMMERBUNDS VIA FAN VOTE
Paolo 5
Suggs 4
Black 4
Isaac 3
KCP 3
Goga 3
Moritz 2
Cole 2
Franz 2
Harris 1
TDS 1
Carter 1

CUMMERBUNDS VIA NET POINTS
Franz 8 (+6)
Moritz 4 (+2)
KCP 4 (+1)
Carter 2 (+1)
TDS 2 (+1)
Goga 2 (-1)
Isaac 2 (-1)
Suggs 2 (-2)
Black 2 (-2)
Paolo 2 (-3)
Cole 1 (-1)
Harris 0 (-1)

MITTENS VIA FAN VOTE
Black 5
Isaac 5
Goga 5
Cole 4
Moritz 3
Franz 3
Carter Jr. 2
Suggs 1
Queen 1
KCP 1
Joseph 1

MITTENS VIA NET POINTS
Goga 4 (-1)
Isaac 4 (-1)
Suggs 3 (+2)
Moritz 3 (even)
Paolo 2 (+2)
TDS 2 (+2)
Carter 2 (even)
Queen 2 (+1)
Franz 2 (-1)
Black 2 (-3)
Harris 1 (+1)
Jett 1 (+1)
Houstan 1 (+1)
Joseph 1 (even)
Cole 1 (-3)
KCP 0 (-1)

Season Standings Via Fan Voting (3-2-1 scale)
Franz - 52
Paolo - 22
Cole - 17
Black - 16
Goga - 14
Isaac - 12
Suggs - 11
KCP - 10
TDS - 8
Moritz - 7
Queen - 4
Carter - 4
Harris - 2
Joseph - 1

Season Standings Via Net Points (3-2-1 scale)
Franz - 39 (-13)
Goga - 23 (+9)
Paolo - 21 (-1)
Carter - 18 (+14)
Moritz - 17 (+10)
Isaac - 14 (+2)
KCP - 14 (+4)
Black - 12 (-4)
TDS - 9 (+1)
Suggs - 7 (-4)
Cole - 6 (-11)
Queen - 2 (-2)
Harris - 1 (-1)
Jett - 1 (+1)
Houstan - 1 (+1)
Joseph - 1 (even)


Most Overrated According to Net Points
1. Franz -13
2. Cole -11
T-3. Black -4
T-3. Suggs -4

Most Underrated According to Net Points
1. Carter (+14)
2. Moritz (+10)
3. Goga (+9)
4. KCP (+4)

One thing I will say is that the fan voting almost always skews towards the highest point scorers in the game, hence why Franz and Cole are seeing the biggest drop offs.

Moritz was having a really good season before he got hurt.

Carter wildly underrated?!

You da goat for this

eyriq wrote:You da goat for this

You know I love ya pal.

Fan votes do a good job of not being biased towards bigs. AB clears Suggs regardless.

This confirms that Suggs IJAG

eyriq wrote:This confirms that Suggs IJAG

7 points in 35 games played = 0.2 vest points per game.

12 points in 64 games played = 0.1875 vest points per game.

Knightro wrote:

eyriq wrote:This confirms that Suggs IJAG

7 points in 35 games played = 0.2 vest points per game.

12 points in 64 games played = 0.1875 vest points per game.

Round that **** up!

Net Points today

AB
Harris
KCP

eyriq wrote:Net Points today

AB
Harris
KCP

Harris takes one FGA and is the second best player; hmm.

Thanks guys for getting a room…so all the other threads can remain pure

Bigs last game, oNet, dNet, tNet

WCJ, +1.1, +0.2, +1.3
Goga, +0.6, +0.5, +1.1
JI, -0.4, +0.9, +0.6
Allen, +3.7, +4.0, +7.7
Thompson, -0.6, -0.2, -0.8


I'm curious about accounting for within position plus minus. Allen gets a ton of credit for our layup challenges, which he should, and he was 6-6 on layups himself, so most of Orlando's defensive credit goes to guards while our bigs combined get +1.3 dNet, a small fraction of the team dNet.

I love this new metric

Embarrassing

drsd wrote:

eyriq wrote:Net Points today

AB
Harris
KCP

Harris takes one FGA and is the second best player; hmm.

I'm not a big advanced all-for-one stats guy in basketball, but defense is so freakin undervalued that it is at least interesting to look at. Do I think Harris was the 2nd best player? No, but his defense was so good that there is merit to realizing his contribution could have been worth more than someone scoring points but on mediocre efficiency.

VFX wrote:Embarrassing

I just think the vest vote is always going to be A. a popularity contest above all else and B. something that skews towards points scored above all else.

Certain guys get to be board whipping boys (Carter, KCP) - often times for good reasons - and their lack of success in the fan popularity contests becomes quite evident.

And bigs are clearly undervalued by the general public. Or overvalued by the advanced metrics. Or both!

Knightro wrote:

VFX wrote:Embarrassing

I just think the vest vote is always going to be A. a popularity contest above all else and B. something that skews towards point scored above all else.

Certain guys get to be board whipping boys (Carter, KCP) - often times for good reasons - and their lack of success in the fan popularity contests becomes quite evident.

And bigs are clearly undervalued by the general public. Or overvalued by the advanced metrics. Or both!

Yeah, the vote is always going to sway toward players you WANT to do well even if they are more marginal in the specific game.

Its just a THIS board thing. Nobody is ever really weighing the overall impact a player has on the entirety of games when we are looking at stat lines and misleading numbers that don't really explain the whole story.

VFX wrote:Yeah, the vote is always going to sway toward players you WANT to do well even if they are more marginal in the specific game.

Its just a THIS board thing. Nobody is ever really weighing the overall impact a player has on the entirety of games when we are looking at stat lines and misleading numbers that don't really explain the whole story.

I agree.

Naturally you're going to see more votes for the players this board wants to be part of the future - Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black primarily.

And less votes for guys the board deems expendable - Carter, KCP, Jett, Cole (unless he has one of his patented once every three weeks monster scoring games), Harris

The only guy who isn't a big scorer who seemingly cut through the scoring bias is Isaac and even that feels a little more like residual from last year (although he's been more impactful defensively recently).

Knightro wrote:

VFX wrote:Yeah, the vote is always going to sway toward players you WANT to do well even if they are more marginal in the specific game.

Its just a THIS board thing. Nobody is ever really weighing the overall impact a player has on the entirety of games when we are looking at stat lines and misleading numbers that don't really explain the whole story.

I agree.

Naturally you're going to see more votes for the players this board wants to be part of the future - Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black primarily.

And less votes for guys the board deems expendable - Carter, KCP, Jett, Cole (unless he has one of his patented once every three weeks monster scoring games), Harris

The only guy who isn't a big scorer who seemingly cut through the scoring bias is Isaac and even that feels a little more like residual from last year (although he's been more impactful defensively recently).

I think the fan vote does a better job at capturing "impact", which stats will always miss until computers start watching games. WCJ is one of the lowest BBIQ players in the league and a mental midget when it counts. Sweater Vest points captures that nicely. Paolo is one of the highest impact players on this team and Sweater Vest points captures that. Glad to see that Net Points is capturing that too.

eyriq wrote:I think the fan vote does a better job at capturing "impact", which stats will always miss until computers start watching games. WCJ is one of the lowest BBIQ players in the league and a mental midget when it counts. Sweater Vest points captures that nicely. Paolo is one of the highest impact players on this team and Sweater Vest points captures that. Glad to see that Net Points is capturing that too.

You're embarrassing yourself with this

It's a popularity contest and only certain people vote.

eyriq wrote:I think the fan vote does a better job at capturing "impact", which stats will always miss until computers start watching games. WCJ is one of the lowest BBIQ players in the league and a mental midget when it counts. Sweater Vest points captures that nicely. Paolo is one of the highest impact players on this team and Sweater Vest points captures that. Glad to see that Net Points is capturing that too.

"I love Net Points when it talks good about people I like."

"I don't love Net Points - and prefer fan voting - when it talks bad about people I like."

Is basically what this is.

Your boy Anthony Black is 518th out of 555 NBA players in Net Points btw.

Fultz would get 2-3 votes whenever he was actually listed even if he played like 10 minutes.

Its not a real metric to measure anything off.

I've voted in like 5 game threads this year I think