OT: Does Everyone Have the Same Opportunities?

[UCFJayBird]

Really off-topic and out of left field, but today at work four of us got into a pretty heated debate. Normally we're always just joking around and a serious topic is rare. But someone we went from talking about taxes, to health care, and than to education and equal opportunities.

So here's the debate: Does everyone have the same opportunities? Strangely enough it was the guys vs the girls in this debate at work (2 vs 2).

The guys were arguing that though everyone can achieve what anyone else can, some have better/more opportunities to achieve it. For some reason it centered around education, which is a very complicated subject. Basically, we were saying that the rich kid that lives in the suburbs that goes to a good school would have a better opportunity to go to Harvard than the kid from the slums that is poor and has to work a job to afford food for himself.

The girls were arguing that it doesn't matter, and that if the person worked hard, regardless of their situation or where they were from they could do it and they had the same opportunities to go to a good school, ala Harvard. If we brought up cost, they'd say scholarships and loans. If we brought up that they wouldn't be able to get scholarships and loans, they'd argue that they must not have good enough grades than or some crap like that.

We acknowledged that no matter where you're from, that it's possible for that kid from the slums to go to Harvard. If he works hard and finds the right connections and everything it's possible, just not probable. They feel that since it's possible, that the opportunities must be the same.

Just wondering the opinions of others on this issue. Does everyone have the same opportunities? I find it extremely ignorant that they would feel this way. There was much more of a debate and more issues brought up, but it's too much to remember and write down.

Interestingly enough though, the two girls that were arguing against us come from families that are at least well off. I wouldn't say either of them are rich, but they're upper middle class families. Meanwhile the two of us come from poor areas and poor schools. I mean I wouldn't say we were lower class, but lower middle class at least. Meanwhile these girls were described by my friend as having a silver spoon, so you get the idea.

[N4U|Redux]

Short answer: nobody has the same opportunities at anything.

We're human, we're ****, and as a society we tend to favor some for a particular reason and we tend to hate others for a particular reason.

Rich people perceive everyone as having an equal opportunity because they are ignorant to how the world works. It is also akin to how some American's think the rest of the world is like what we have (i.e. watering our grass with cleaner drinking water than hundreds of millions of people drink) or that we merely are doing the world a favor in policing it. Meanwhile, we use insane amounts of resources in proportion to our population % of the world.

Now, I'm not trying to preach equal opportunity for everything, and I don't donate my money to nations more in need. But, at least I recognize that some people get certain things not because they deserve them but because they have some sort of advantage over another that has nothing to do with getting the commodity they want whether it be an education, a job, a lifestyle, etc.

Being a Caucasian male, I have a much better shot at being president someday than ivDT does for instance .

[theTHIEF]

as long as the NAACP is around, there will never be a such thing as "equal opportunity" it will be "minority opportunity" and for that I am sorry...

but on the same token there is no denial that the government could give a crap about my young black brothers and sisters in the hood...even though in most instances those people dont care enough about themselves to seize chances in life just like nearly my entire family did, and never once did we scream racism or unfair...

bottom line is no...i dont think so...but thats what separates the warrior from the passerby...

[CourtsideTV]

yes and no

yes in that if someone is determined...they can achieve almost anything

and no in that there is a slight factor which wealth plays in to this discussion.

the more well off person will have a more easy life style compared to a less well of person who has to work or do other stuff (when it comes to schooling etc.)

in the end..how successful you are is determined on how skilled you are, how hard you work for your goal, and LUCK

[Potterman]

I actually laugh when I read this. My answer is nowhere near as long as you guys but to think that there is such a possibility doesn't mean anything.

A true story to prove the point of opportunity vs chances 3 generations ago my great grandmother barely escaped the Spanish revolution with her life. Last generation we barely escaped communism before Castro took over. 3 countries and 4 generations later we may be poor but God be thanked were at least free to do what we can. That is the pure meaning of opportunity (being free in this generation) Vs chance (we had the chance but things happen).

[Bigmagicfan82]

With out getting to deep into this, everybody does not have same opportunity. It is not just due to economics, race, and quality of the school. Though those do play a major role, their are other factors that play just as a big of a role in what kind of opportunities a person has. Factors such as home life, enviroment, peer pressure, and politics all play a role in what opportunities people have.

Also the issue not just an issue that is seen in the urban neighborhoods. The problem is also in suburban neighborhoods. Just look at the issue of tracking .

[PimpORL]

Those chicks are (Please Use More Appropriate Word). It's true that America, like most countries, has social mobility, but the rich still have more opportunity either way. Let's say there are 2 people with about equal intelligence and equal skills. The person that's already rich will succeed, because he/she will be able to afford the college degree and sustain the wealth or just carry on the family business (basically what you said). Same opportunity? No. If you have to work harder for it, you don't have the same opportunities, do you? lol

[UCFJayBird]

With out getting to deep into this, everybody does not have same opportunity. It is not just due to economics, race, and quality of the school. Though those do play a major role, their are other factors that play just as a big of a role in what kind of opportunities a person has. Factors such as home life, enviroment, peer pressure, and politics all play a role in what opportunities people have.

Also the issue not just an issue that is seen in the urban neighborhoods. The problem is also in suburban neighborhoods. Just look at the issue of tracking .

very true. My friend who was on my side was constantly bringing up the effects of your environment when growing up. Bringing up the fact that the kid that grew up in a neighborhood filled with drugs and guns would have less opportunities and it'd be harder to make it. But the girls would just say something like "he doesn't have to let that environment effect him, he can just stay focused and work hard at school". Not sure they realize how much their environment growing up effected them.

edit: and PimpORL, they argued that no matter how hard it is, the opportunity is still there and still the same as the person that doesn't have to work as hard. They'd say "we're not arguing who's privledged".

[Max Power]

On paper, we are of course supposed to have the same opps regardless of sex, race etc. But the sad thing is, that doesn't happen. Those high powered execs that have hard liquor in their work cabinets have even more power than we think. Job opportunities should be on qualifications alone, but we all know that people get jobs based on attractiveness levels too, for example, if a hot chick with huge knockers and I are going for the same job, and we have the same qualifications, I'm screwed royally. It's a double edged sword.

[PimpORL]

Wtf. Being privileged means having more opportunities.

[N4U|Redux]

if a hot chick with huge knockers and I are going for the same job, and we have the same qualifications, I'm screwed royally. It's a double edged sword.

Depends if she's applying for a job where the girl is the interviewer and/or makes hiring decisions. Being good looking definitely helps though, I've known so many good looking women that I'm like "how the hell did you get this job?" including friends.

Wtf. Being privileged means having more opportunity.

Depends what they interpret as opportunity.

They seem to be perceiving opportunity as 'not being disqualified from something' as having an equal opportunity. From there, it depends how hard one works.

No, I'm not condoning what they're saying btw. At least, not as Jason has noted it.

[Bigmagicfan82]

Wtf. Being privileged means having more opportunities.

Hell yeah. Being rich does give you more opportunities. Look at Donald Trumps children. Look at Paris Hilton. They are handed the keys to billion dollar empire. They can go and do whatever they want and still know that they have a safety net to fall into. Do you think Mike from Baltimore, DC, Newark, or Compton has that same opportunity? I'm not mad at them for it. That is how it should be. Each generation so pass on wealth to the next generation so that they can can do better.

[theTHIEF]

but you cant hate on rich people, or children of the wealthy...

[Duradero]

Classism is more crippling at this point than racism, i.e. you go to a crappy school that cant affort extracurricular activities that the students could use to bolster their portfolio to get into a college of choice. Hell yeah, opportunities matter and could mean everything.

[Bigmagicfan82]

but you cant hate on rich people, or children of the wealthy...

By no means am I hating on the wealthy or their kids. Just making a point. IMO trying to paint a subject like this into a corner as an issue of race, or an issue of economics; or an issue of the school system; or an issue of enviroment; just trivializes the situation. The problem involves all of those issues and then some more issues.

[jamlando]

Unfortunately these girls represent a segment of society that probably knows nothing outside of their own little worlds. When you have the world handed to you, you really don't know what it takes to have to work hard for what you want or get and you definitely don't have to figure out how to fight through the many obstacles placed in front of you just because you may not come from a certain social circle or because of your skin color or size.

These girls will never understand until they're forced to make it under less than ideal situations.

[N4U|Redux]

but you cant hate on rich people, or children of the wealthy...

I suppose you cannot hate on the children of the wealthy, but you can hate on those wealthy parents that do not instill a sense of decency in their children (i.e. the Hilton sisters).

At some point I suppose you "forget" what it was like to be normal.

I know if I make it relatively big that I won't be spoiling my children rotten. Shows like "sweet 16" on MTV make me literally want to go on a shooting spree for those 30 minutes.

[theTHIEF]

yea...i understand...and i feel you on that for real...but at the same time, we're talking opportunity here, and the decency thing wont effect Jamal's ability to get an education, or a job at best buy...

[UCFJayBird]

Ok I now feel much better that most people think the same way we do.

And I don't hate on rich kids, but I hate on rich kids that act like they have it difficult and don't realize how great they have it. Today one of the girls was like "i wish my mom would go buy a new car already so i can have hers. I mean I have a Civic and it runs ok, but i just want something nice ya know?" WTF? This girl on her first day had her dad drive from his job just to put gas in her car cause she didn't want to get lost trying to find a gas station (even though we told her it was two turns). Talk about spoiled right?

And I didn't even think about the poor schools not having enough money for extra curiculars that they could put on their portfolios. I'll have to bring that up! I couldn't seem to get across the fact that they had lesser opportunities cause they went to a bad school, they seemed to think as long as they had As that was enough.

[Bigmagicfan82]

A good show that talks about this subject is The Wire. They have talked about this for the last five seasons. Especially season 4 and now season 5.