295 (RealGM Article - TheGlyde)

[N4U|Redux]

What

[UCFJayBird]

interesting, nicely done

[MagicMadness]

Agreed, interesting read.

On a side note, I would consider Hardaway a legitimate franchise player as well considering he made three All-NBA teams. In fact, he was a 1st Team selection twice, while Shaq made three teams as well but was never a 1st Team selection as a member of the Magic.

[N4U|Redux]

Wow, the Dwight love is incredible here.

Dwight until this year hasn't even been in a league with Shaq or Tmac, one season as THE guy sure has created quite an aura for him.

I'll take Tmac or Shaq in the 4th quarter rather than Dwight and his mechanical post offense and turnovers any day of the week. I'm not trying to hate on Dwight, but he's just not as good as either of those two yet. Period.

Dwight clearly possesses the most weaknesses of the 3 (while they were here). He's still pretty mechanical on offense and is less than desirable when not dunking it, he plays great weakside defense but is still learning against great post players, he's not as good of a passer as either of the others (out of double teams or in general), he's very turnover prone, his own team doesn't give him the ball (perhaps there's a reason besides everyone being selfish?), and he is enormously non-clutch.

Dwight is my favorite player on the team and maybe my criticisms are because I expect more of him based on what we've seen (i.e. he's progressing somewhat slower than expected, especially on offense).

Simply put, he's not on the level of Shaq/Tmac yet.

[lovehoops01]

Well, we got Dwight at a more raw level than either Shaq or T-Mac. Shaq had three years of college in a quality program when he got here and T-Mac had three years in the league. Plus, Dwight is a big man coming straight out of high school -- and a small high school at that. And Shaq wasn't as polished when he first got here as he was by the time he left four seasons later. I do expect more from Dwight in the long run, but I'm not disappointed at all with what he has given us so far, and I think he'll meet my expectations. I am seeing growth in his game every season, and he continues to work hard on his game. Like SVG said after Saturday's game, "The difference is: We have Dwight, and they don't.''

[TheGlyde]

Agreed, interesting read.

On a side note, I would consider Hardaway a legitimate franchise player as well considering he made three All-NBA teams. In fact, he was a 1st Team selection twice, while Shaq made three teams as well but was never a 1st Team selection as a member of the Magic.

I did consider that, but Penny only really had 3 seasons before his body started to give out, all 3 were with Shaq as the franchise player and once Shaq left and Penny was the man, the injuries began.

He was a great player no doubt, but the All-NBA 1st teams were more because a) the all nba teams have 2 guards, only one center, and b) Shaq was up against 3 of the top 50 players of all time, in their primes, in Hakeem, Robinson and Ewing, while the guard crop was weaker at the time.

Wow, the Dwight love is incredible here.

Dwight until this year hasn't even been in a league with Shaq or Tmac, one season as THE guy sure has created quite an aura for him.

I think we have different ideas on what makes him THE guy, I think he has has his pulse on the sucess of this team for longer than this season, I'd say maybe the past 2 and a half seasons...

Obviously theres going to be some personal preference in something like this, and my preference is for Dwight to be unique. I would much rather see him be a career 20/15 guy than another run-of-the-mill 25/10 guy.

So, I would argue that he has indeed been in the same league with Shaq and Tmac in some areas such as rebounding, defence, and the other factors (attendance, performance at a younger age etc) without being a player who needs to score to take over a game.

I'll take Tmac or Shaq in the 4th quarter rather than Dwight and his mechanical post offense and turnovers any day of the week. I'm not trying to hate on Dwight, but he's just not as good as either of those two yet. Period.

I've seen games where Dwight has taken over 4th quarters with rebounding and shot blocking alone, his 28/26 game vs Philly for one, and that is a very rare feat. Yes he isn't as good a scorer as either of those two, and I pointed that out, there is more to the game than scoring.

Dwight clearly possesses the most weaknesses of the 3 (while they were here). He's still pretty mechanical on offense and is less than desirable when not dunking it, he plays great weakside defense but is still learning against great post players, he's not as good of a passer as either of the others (out of double teams or in general), he's very turnover prone, his own team doesn't give him the ball (perhaps there's a reason besides everyone being selfish?), and he is enormously non-clutch.

I think maybe we just are using the work 'weakness' differently.

You call his scoring and defense weaknesses, wheras I would say they aren't weak, but maybe just not as strong as the other guys. I pointed out he's a worse passer than Shaq but he's a better foul shooter, and Shaq was also turnover prone.

[drsd]

What is beautiful to note is that the Magic have Howard inked for the next five years. This was something past GMs could not get from their aces.

Nine years of Dwight Howard as a minimum!

[realfung]

interesting article....good job..

I think the order is about right...

[KingRobb02]

Glyde, I think you are grossly underestimating what the great guards did for this team. One could argue that Penny Hardaway was the best player in the league for a breif stint while Jordan was retired, and you think he only made the all NBA team because there were weak guards? Gary payton and John Stockton are both top 5 all time point guards, and they were both in their prime. Sprewell was still murder, Tim Hardaway still needed attention, Drexler was around, Mitch Richmond was the best shooting guard in the west, and Jordan only missed a year and a half. There were good players, Penny was just better. He was the only player during the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons to average 20+ points 5+ assists and shoot above 50% on field goals.

Also don't make it seem like Penny was dependant on Shaq for his glory. In case you forgot the Magic had the best record in the east during 1999 season when Penny played every game. Even if you look at the season after Shaq left, Penny led the team to the playoffs with Richie as the coach and then proceeded to average 40 PPG in the playoffs. There was a reason that Nike hitched their wagon to him, and it wasn't his personality. 4 time All Star and twice all NBA and you don't even mention him? Come on. Watch ESPN Classic when the 1995 finals come on. The player that keeps it close for us is Penny, not Shaq, and definitely not anyone in the supporting cast.

Moving back to the article, I also think that you are a bit hard on McGrady. Sure he shut it down early in our worst yuear, but that was at the pleading of management who wanted to pack it in and get a high draft pick, which worked. McGrady played great that year just like the other years he was here, the problem is that we gave him Giracek, Burke, Howard, Gooden, and Lue and told him to win games. Lebron would be lucky to win 20 games with that lineup. It was not his decision to sit out the end of the season at all, but you seem to use that against him. We all know tankig ahppens in this league, so why are we blaming Tracy in this case? The Magic knew that games like that 60 point outburst would hurt their chances, so they put a stop to it. I am not mad at anyone involved since it landed us Dwight. I just wish that we were as smart as the Lakers, and would have ignored the trade demands and dared McGrady to opt out. Imagine McGrady, Dwight, Juwan, and Turk on the same floor as opposed to Francis, the remnants of Doug Christie, kelvin Cato, and Dwight. No wonder the GM was fired.

I think when it's all said and done our greatest players so far are Penny, Shaq, McGrady, then Dwight. This is based on the categories you used.

Winning: Penny, Shaq, McGrady, Dwight
In Shaq's year without Penny we didn

[N4U|Redux]

Penny could possibly be my favorite all time Magic player, but he's certainly not the best, he certainly deserves mention in the article though.

While Glyde seems to be overcritical of Mac, overzealous with Howard, and actually fair with Shaq you seem to be making Hardaway into a God here.

Shaq is the greatest Magician of all time, it's difficult to question that. Mac in my mind is clearly better than Howard to this point of his career (highly doubt it'll stay like that for long), and I'm not sure where Penny falls since it's unclear what his success and downfall are related to: would he have been great if not for the injuries, or did he start sucking because Shaq left? Or, was it both...(probably).

Winning and playoffs: 1. Shaq, 2. Penny, 3. Mac, 4. Howard
Let's see if we actualy keep up this win % we have hmm Glyde? Clearly Shaq and Penny are the biggest winners the franchise has seen, while I don't particularly feel Howard is a "winner" yet. He's made the playoffs and we've performed terribly, at least the Magic did decently aganist the Pistons and Hornets with Mac.

Scoring: 1. Tmac, 2. Shaq, 3. Penny, 4. Howard
Tmac and Shaq are neck and neck here, Howard is easily the most offensively inept of the bunch

Rebounding: 1. Howard, 2. Shaq, 3. Tmac, 4. Penny

I don't think this needs explanation

Passing: 1. Penny, 2. Tmac, 3. Shaq, 4. Howard

Penny was a great passer, there's a reason he was compared to Magic. Tmac also has great floor vision which he exhibits in Houston. Shaq has alsways been a good passing big man, and HOward is just terrible at passing.

Defense: None were particularly great, but for the sake of rankings - 1. Shaq, 2. Tmac, 3. Howard, 4. Penny

As stated, none are all-league defenders or even close. Tmac probably has the most potential but never realized it, Penny also should've been much better than he was.

Weaknesses: 1. Tmac, 2. Penny, 3. Shaq, 4. Howard

Tmac has athe best all-around game, but the weakest mind sadly. Howard's weakness stems from his youth and will eventually dissipate (hopefully).

Others: 1. Dwight, 2. Shaq, 3. Penny and Tmac (tie)

Penny and Tmac both had roles in tearing the team apart, they deserve to be last here. Dwight is a class act, as was Shaq here, I give Dwight the edge since Shaq bolted like a douche.

Unlike the stupid rating system used throughout the thread though, I'll make it subjective how you rank things above. Using absolute ratings is (Please Use More Appropriate Word), especially when you talk about things like offense where Howard is exponentially worse than everyone else involved but gets the same points off as being the worst winner which isn't nearly as clear cut. Drop the dumbass absolute system it doesn't work.

My subjective ranking: 1. Shaq, 2. Tmac, <--big gap--> 3. Howard & Penny (tie)

[Just Plain Mark]

Very interesting take and pretty good read for a "numbers" article.

I suspect Dwight will pass both Shaq and Penny if he continues to exhibit such a persistent and focused work ethic. Shaq and Tmac both initially exhibited such a work ethic, but eased off after significant success (Shaq) and obstacles (T-Mac).

[KingRobb02]

Penny could possibly be my favorite all time Magic player, but he's certainly not the best, he certainly deserves mention in the article though.

While Glyde seems to be overcritical of Mac, overzealous with Howard, and actually fair with Shaq you seem to be making Hardaway into a God here.

Shaq is the greatest Magician of all time, it's difficult to question that. Mac in my mind is clearly better than Howard to this point of his career (highly doubt it'll stay like that for long), and I'm not sure where Penny falls since it's unclear what his success and downfall are related to: would he have been great if not for the injuries, or did he start sucking because Shaq left? Or, was it both...(probably).

Winning and playoffs: 1. Shaq, 2. Penny, 3. Mac, 4. Howard
Let's see if we actualy keep up this win % we have hmm Glyde? Clearly Shaq and Penny are the biggest winners the franchise has seen, while I don't particularly feel Howard is a "winner" yet. He's made the playoffs and we've performed terribly, at least the Magic did decently aganist the Pistons and Hornets with Mac.

Scoring: 1. Tmac, 2. Shaq, 3. Penny, 4. Howard
Tmac and Shaq are neck and neck here, Howard is easily the most offensively inept of the bunch

Rebounding: 1. Howard, 2. Shaq, 3. Tmac, 4. Penny

I don't think this needs explanation

Passing: 1. Penny, 2. Tmac, 3. Shaq, 4. Howard

Penny was a great passer, there's a reason he was compared to Magic. Tmac also has great floor vision which he exhibits in Houston. Shaq has alsways been a good passing big man, and HOward is just terrible at passing.

Defense: None were particularly great, but for the sake of rankings - 1. Shaq, 2. Tmac, 3. Howard, 4. Penny

As stated, none are all-league defenders or even close. Tmac probably has the most potential but never realized it, Penny also should've been much better than he was.

Weaknesses: 1. Tmac, 2. Penny, 3. Shaq, 4. Howard

Tmac has athe best all-around game, but the weakest mind sadly. Howard's weakness stems from his youth and will eventually dissipate (hopefully).

Others: 1. Dwight, 2. Shaq, 3. Penny and Tmac (tie)

Penny and Tmac both had roles in tearing the team apart, they deserve to be last here. Dwight is a class act, as was Shaq here, I give Dwight the edge since Shaq bolted like a douche.

Unlike the stupid rating system used throughout the thread though, I'll make it subjective how you rank things above. Using absolute ratings is (Please Use More Appropriate Word), especially when you talk about things like offense where Howard is exponentially worse than everyone else involved but gets the same points off as being the worst winner which isn't nearly as clear cut. Drop the dumbass absolute system it doesn't work.

My subjective ranking: 1. Shaq, 2. Tmac, <--big gap--> 3. Howard & Penny (tie)

I may have been extremely favorable to Haraway's contributions to this team, but from a numbers standpoint you can't deny him his due. I don't see how anyone can rate Shaq over Penny in the winning department since Penny had a higher win% in his first 4 years than Shaq in his, and Penny also performed a lot better in the playoffs every year. I also think that you are forgettign how good he was on defense. Sure he didnt get gaudy numbers, but he did a great job locking down the best wing player on every teams we played. Go check youtube if you need a reminder. There is no way that I can see anyone rating him after Dwight in terms of contribution to the organization after 4 years.

[craig01]

1. Shaq
2. McGrady
3. Howard

Big gap between 1 and 2 IMO. That Shaq had a better supporting cast is kind of arguable. How well did any of that cast perform without Shaq?

Only Grant in Chicago prior to coming here had had any success.

I'm not sure that Howard has surpassed Hardaway at this juncture yet. I'm sure he will though, and soon.

Interesting read Glyde.

[KingRobb02]

1. Shaq
2. McGrady
3. Howard

Big gap between 1 and 2 IMO. That Shaq had a better supporting cast is kind of arguable. How well did any of that cast perform without Shaq?

Only Grant in Chicago prior to coming here had had any success.

I'm not sure that Howard has surpassed Hardaway at this juncture yet. I'm sure he will though, and soon.

Interesting read Glyde.

How well did they perform without him? Shaq's all-NBA point guard led teh team to the playoffs the next year and proceeded to average 40. There is no doubt that Shaq had a superb supporting cast.

[Nemesis21]

good article

[TooNice00]

dwight will be the best magic player of all time.

tracy mcgrady and penny hardaway = both whiners

and shaq was never really here. shaq will be remembered for his LA and Miami days.

[TheGlyde]

Glyde, I think you are grossly underestimating what the great guards did for this team. One could argue that Penny Hardaway was the best player in the league for a breif stint while Jordan was retired, and you think he only made the all NBA team because there were weak guards? Gary payton and John Stockton are both top 5 all time point guards, and they were both in their prime. Sprewell was still murder, Tim Hardaway still needed attention, Drexler was around, Mitch Richmond was the best shooting guard in the west, and Jordan only missed a year and a half. There were good players, Penny was just better. He was the only player during the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons to average 20+ points 5+ assists and shoot above 50% on field goals.

Also don't make it seem like Penny was dependant on Shaq for his glory. In case you forgot the Magic had the best record in the east during 1999 season when Penny played every game. Even if you look at the season after Shaq left, Penny led the team to the playoffs with Richie as the coach and then proceeded to average 40 PPG in the playoffs. There was a reason that Nike hitched their wagon to him, and it wasn't his personality. 4 time All Star and twice all NBA and you don't even mention him? Come on. Watch ESPN Classic when the 1995 finals come on. The player that keeps it close for us is Penny, not Shaq, and definitely not anyone in the supporting cast.

Ok, time to address the Penny issue...

Firstly, KingRobbo let's just hang on a minute here... can you really argue with a straight face that Penny Hardaway may have been the best player in the league the year Jordan retired?

Yes, he made the All-NBA first team that year and Shaq only made the 2nd team (MVP David Robinson made 1st team), but lets look at the MVP voting for that season, Shaq: 2nd, Penny: a distant 10th place, there is no argument over who's team it was that season.

I say again, theres only 1 center on the All-NBA teams, while there are two guards, if there were two centers, Shaq and Robinson, the two best players in the league based off MVP voting, would have both made it.

If they only selected one point guard and one shooting guard on the All-NBA teams, Penny may not have even made it in 1994-95. He likely would have been bumped to the 2nd team by fellow 1st teamer Stockton (Stockton beat Penny in MVP voting that season 47 to 23).

The claim of Gary Payton being a top 5 all time point guard again is going a bit far. You do remember the likes of Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Bob Cousy, Jerry West and Isiah Thomas right? Stockton you can push into that 5 at the expense of maybe Thomas... but Payton? he's in a battle with Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Nate Archibald and Walf Frazier to stay in the top ten, but yeah, I would squeeze him into the top ten.

Even with them both there, they weren't in their prime in 1994-95, Payton's prime was 1998-2002. Stockton's was 1987-1992, though of course they were still very good players, as was Penny, for a short time.

You can't honestly tell me Penny was a better winner and more integral to the teams success than Shaq on the basis of Shaq's rookie season not making the playoffs and Penny's 4th season he made them... Shaq improved the Magic by 20 games in his rookie season. Penny made the playoffs without Shaq but it was his 4th season by then, do you honestly think a 1993-94 team of Penny (in his rookie year), Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Jeff Turner and Tree Rollins at center goes to the playoffs?

By Shaq's last season here, you could argue they were equals, but before that Shaq was much more responsible for the teams success it isn't even close.

The lockout season, where Penny did indeed lead us to the best record in the east, was well past his 295th game, which is what I'm comparing here, their first 295 games, or at a push, their first 4 seasons. That season was Penny's 6th, we can compare it later on to Dwight's 6th.

I don't need to go youtube Penny highlights or catch him on ESPN classic because I was around at the time watching, I still have plenty of games in my Magic game library where Penny starred and he was my favourite player in the mid nineties... I think your memory at times may be a little hazy, I mean 40ppg in the playoffs in 1996-97? he averaged 31ppg... thats kind of extreme rounding up...

Penny, in my opinion could have been an all time great if he didnt get injured, but he did. He was an extremely talented player who had some great seasons, but at the end of the day, I just don't see Penny as a legit franchise player. He's close though, I admit that and maybe if he never played with Shaq he would have been, I just can't stop seeing him as the Robin to Shaq's Batman... Tmac and Dwight, they aren't Robin to anyone.

[N4U|Redux]

Penny isn't better than Shaq or Tmac, it's pretty crazy to believe otherwise.

However, I believe there are some issues here:

1. We have the benefit of hindsight for Shaq. Point being, Shaq went on to dominate at every team he went to, including ours. So, naturally we think of Penny as the 'robin' to Shaq's 'batman.' I also think of Kobe and Wade in the same fashion -- though, all 3 are some of the best wings of our lives...they're still 'robins.' I think it's unfair to lump Hardaway into the 2nd man type of role -- that's what Lewis is to Howard, what Odom or Gasol is to Kobe, etc. Shaq and Penny were near equals while here, and since we have hindsight that shows us that it was probably Shaq making Penny much better, we write off Penny's first four years a bit.

2. If Howard goes out next game and sustains a Grant Hill type of injury (I better not have jinxed him) effectively ending his tenure with the Magic at 4 years -- do we honestly consider him as good as Tmac and Shaq? No way. In the same way that the benefit of hindsight screwed over Penny, our ambitions for Howard are ruining his current accomplishments and inflating his current abilities (not just in this thread -- everyone makes Dwight much better then he really is).

Looking at the facts of the first 4 years with us, not looking forward into how they performed, or developing bias based on what we expect it's pretty clear that Shaq and Tmac are in a league of their own -- and maybe Shaq is in a league of his own ahead of Tmac. Howard just isn't up to snuff yet. I'd like to hear it justified how he is without introducing bias or using a dumbass absolute scale concludes he's where he is (there needs to be some sort of dynamic scale).

[KingRobb02]

Glyde, I think you are grossly underestimating what the great guards did for this team. One could argue that Penny Hardaway was the best player in the league for a breif stint while Jordan was retired, and you think he only made the all NBA team because there were weak guards? Gary payton and John Stockton are both top 5 all time point guards, and they were both in their prime. Sprewell was still murder, Tim Hardaway still needed attention, Drexler was around, Mitch Richmond was the best shooting guard in the west, and Jordan only missed a year and a half. There were good players, Penny was just better. He was the only player during the 1994-95 and 1995-96 seasons to average 20+ points 5+ assists and shoot above 50% on field goals.

Also don't make it seem like Penny was dependant on Shaq for his glory. In case you forgot the Magic had the best record in the east during 1999 season when Penny played every game. Even if you look at the season after Shaq left, Penny led the team to the playoffs with Richie as the coach and then proceeded to average 40 PPG in the playoffs. There was a reason that Nike hitched their wagon to him, and it wasn't his personality. 4 time All Star and twice all NBA and you don't even mention him? Come on. Watch ESPN Classic when the 1995 finals come on. The player that keeps it close for us is Penny, not Shaq, and definitely not anyone in the supporting cast.

Ok, time to address the Penny issue...

Firstly, KingRobbo let's just hang on a minute here... can you really argue with a straight face that Penny Hardaway may have been the best player in the league the year Jordan retired?

Yes, he made the All-NBA first team that year and Shaq only made the 2nd team (MVP David Robinson made 1st team), but lets look at the MVP voting for that season, Shaq: 2nd, Penny: a distant 10th place, there is no argument over who's team it was that season.

I say again, theres only 1 center on the All-NBA teams, while there are two guards, if there were two centers, Shaq and Robinson, the two best players in the league based off MVP voting, would have both made it.

If they only selected one point guard and one shooting guard on the All-NBA teams, Penny may not have even made it in 1994-95. He likely would have been bumped to the 2nd team by fellow 1st teamer Stockton (Stockton beat Penny in MVP voting that season 47 to 23).

The claim of Gary Payton being a top 5 all time point guard again is going a bit far. You do remember the likes of Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Bob Cousy, Jerry West and Isiah Thomas right? Stockton you can push into that 5 at the expense of maybe Thomas... but Payton? he's in a battle with Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Nate Archibald and Walf Frazier to stay in the top ten, but yeah, I would squeeze him into the top ten.

Even with them both there, they weren't in their prime in 1994-95, Payton's prime was 1998-2002. Stockton's was 1987-1992, though of course they were still very good players, as was Penny, for a short time.

You can't honestly tell me Penny was a better winner and more integral to the teams success than Shaq on the basis of Shaq's rookie season not making the playoffs and Penny's 4th season he made them... Shaq improved the Magic by 20 games in his rookie season. Penny made the playoffs without Shaq but it was his 4th season by then, do you honestly think a 1993-94 team of Penny (in his rookie year), Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Jeff Turner and Tree Rollins at center goes to the playoffs?

By Shaq's last season here, you could argue they were equals, but before that Shaq was much more responsible for the teams success it isn't even close.

The lockout season, where Penny did indeed lead us to the best record in the east, was well past his 295th game, which is what I'm comparing here, their first 295 games, or at a push, their first 4 seasons. That season was Penny's 6th, we can compare it later on to Dwight's 6th.

I don't need to go youtube Penny highlights or catch him on ESPN classic because I was around at the time watching, I still have plenty of games in my Magic game library where Penny starred and he was my favourite player in the mid nineties... I think your memory at times may be a little hazy, I mean 40ppg in the playoffs in 1996-97? he averaged 31ppg... thats kind of extreme rounding up...

Penny, in my opinion could have been an all time great if he didnt get injured, but he did. He was an extremely talented player who had some great seasons, but at the end of the day, I just don't see Penny as a legit franchise player. He's close though, I admit that and maybe if he never played with Shaq he would have been, I just can't stop seeing him as the Robin to Shaq's Batman... Tmac and Dwight, they aren't Robin to anyone.

First off, no animosity here, I just wanted to remind everyone how good Penny was. To start, you can't use MVP voting to decide who the best players are. If that were the case, jordan would have won every year and Lebron, TD, and Kobe would be the favorites this year in stead of Garnett. For an extreme case look at the year Peja was 3rd in MVP voting and only made the All-NBA 3rd team. Sport's writers aren'te really up to the task of deciding who is best. Just last year Shaq got more MVP votes than Amare, even though Amare is clearly better and made the All NBA first team. Which one would you take in a head to head matchup? The All NBA teams actually mean more since it's the coaches who decide those. I'm not trying to arge whose team it was, but rather who had more of an impact. Just like the Wizards were Gil's team last year, I would still take Caron Butler over him in terms of all around talent and impact.

Secondly, your all-time point guard ratings are out of whack. I have Payton 4th behind Magic, Oscar, and Thomas. Cousy didnt have many assists, and he shot a terrible percentage while being an average defender at best. West was a shooting guard, and Stockton, Kidd, Nash and the rest just weren't as good as Payton was in his prime. Payton (and Stockton) gets unfairly docked for not winning the ring in Seattle, when the fact is that during the Bulls' reign, nobody else won a ring. people like to have a bias against scoring point guards (which is why you never hear Gilbert's name mentioned among the best young point guards), which is totally unfair.

Kidd is undoubtedly a better passer than Payton, but he can't shoot, his team has never ranked in the league's top 10 in offensive efficiency and he's also never won more than 56 games in a season. Payton, on the other hand, averaged better than 20 points and eight assists a game for six straight years (something only Oscar Robertson can claim). His Sonics were in the top six in offensive efficiency every season from 1992-93 to 1997-98 (I consider this his prime), finishing first once, second once and third twice. In that six-year span his club averaged 61 wins a season. Which one would you want?

He made first team All-Defense nine straight seasons from 1994 to 2002, and was the league's Defensive Player of the Year in 1995-96. he is hands down the best defensive point ever (maybe Frazier, but that's pushing it), so why are you so reluctant to put him in your top 5?

Back to Penny, you're right not to include the lockout season, but my main argument centers around the fact that even in year 4 he was better than Dwight and Shaq in any of their first 4 years. Sure Shaq improved his team by 20 games in his first season, but the team was still not a contender until Penny grew into his role as the playmaker. I am not trying to short change what O'Neal did for us, I just think that if we are looking at the first 4 years, and the only difference between Shaq's first 4 and Penny's first 4 was that Shaq had a good rookie year that came up short, and Penny went to the playoffs and put up 40 in back to back games (sorry for saying averaged earlier).

Secondly, you can't take points away from Penny for being oft injured later in his career when he player more games in his first 4 seasons than Shaq did in his first 4. Are we going to take Shaq down below Howard because Geiger broke his hand? I just don't see how you can definitively say that Shaq was definitely the only franchise guy, simply because he was the center. Was hakeem less of a franchise guy because Sampson was around? Did magic have to wait for kareem to retire to be a franchise guy? Just face it, the Magic had two franchise guys, but one was more charismatic than the other so we always think of him. If you don't believe me, think about what would happen if we replaced one player with a second teir replacement. Replace Penny with Scott Skiles, and the magic don't get out of the first round, even in 1995. Replace Shaq with Rony Seikley, and the Magic at least have a fighting chance.

[KingRobb02]

Penny isn't better than Shaq or Tmac, it's pretty crazy to believe otherwise.

However, I believe there are some issues here:

1. We have the benefit of hindsight for Shaq. Point being, Shaq went on to dominate at every team he went to, including ours. So, naturally we think of Penny as the 'robin' to Shaq's 'batman.' I also think of Kobe and Wade in the same fashion -- though, all 3 are some of the best wings of our lives...they're still 'robins.' I think it's unfair to lump Hardaway into the 2nd man type of role -- that's what Lewis is to Howard, what Odom or Gasol is to Kobe, etc. Shaq and Penny were near equals while here, and since we have hindsight that shows us that it was probably Shaq making Penny much better, we write off Penny's first four years a bit.

2. If Howard goes out next game and sustains a Grant Hill type of injury (I better not have jinxed him) effectively ending his tenure with the Magic at 4 years -- do we honestly consider him as good as Tmac and Shaq? No way. In the same way that the benefit of hindsight screwed over Penny, our ambitions for Howard are ruining his current accomplishments and inflating his current abilities (not just in this thread -- everyone makes Dwight much better then he really is).

Looking at the facts of the first 4 years with us, not looking forward into how they performed, or developing bias based on what we expect it's pretty clear that Shaq and Tmac are in a league of their own -- and maybe Shaq is in a league of his own ahead of Tmac. Howard just isn't up to snuff yet. I'd like to hear it justified how he is without introducing bias or using a dumbass absolute scale concludes he's where he is (there needs to be some sort of dynamic scale).

This is the reason, Greg Oden went #1 this year. People seem to be more amazed by big men. You can call Kobe and Wade Robin all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are great players who define thir teams. To imply that Shaq made either of the great is insane. If that were the case, why aren't we discussing Nick Anderson in the same way? Simple, he just wasn't on the same level. I don't really think that Penny is better than Mcgrady or Shaq, in terms of overall impact, but when you break things down Jack Ramsey style like Glyde did and assign points by categories, Penny has to rate highly since he had no real weaknesses. Yes we do have the benefit of hindsight, but even watching him now, I think that if you took a time machine and took that Penny and put him on the Clippers today and they are a 4 seed in the west. he was that good. If there was ever a doubt, just look at Deisel's last year in pinstripes. He missed 30 games and no one cared, because Penny was firmly in control. if Penny had missed 30 games and SHaq had to lead the team by himself with Brian Shaw at the point, do we even make it to the playoffs. I'm not thinking it was a sure thing. Things fell apart in the playoffs against Chicago because the team was going to penny down the stretch and Shaq was more willing to sulk than help. That series is on TV a lot. Either watch it there or get the tape from Glyde.