OT: Florida/Michigan delegates, should they count?

[UCFJayBird]

Anyone following the race for the democratic nomination knows about the debate over the delegates from Florida and Michigan, and whether they should be seated or not at the convention. Here's the facts (as far as I know it, i'm doing it off memory, so correct me if i'm wrong)...

1. The Democratic National Committee told Florida and Michigan that if they moved their primaries ahead of the schedule (forget the date they were supposed to be after) that there would be consequences. After they moved their primaries up, they were stripped of their delegates.

2. Both the Clinton and Obama parties agreed that it was the proper action and agreed that they should not count.

3. Hillary Clinton was the ONLY candidate on the Michigan ballot, with Obama and Edwards (who was in the race at the time) not being on the ballot. All were on the Florida ballot.

4. No one campaigned or advertised in either state.

5. In Florida, Clinton won 50% of the votes, with Obama getting 33% and Edwards 14%, 1% going to Kucinich. Florida originally was slated to have 210 delegates.

6. In Michigan, Clinton won 55% of the votes, while 40% voted Undecided. Kucinich got 4%, Dodd got 1%, and Gravel even got some votes (but not enough to have 1%). Michigan was originally slated to have 156 delegates.

7. Since Hillary has fallen behind in the race, she has been campaigning for the delegates to count, a complete flip flop from her stance before the race began (when she thought Obama wasn't a serious contender that could actually win the race). Obama feels the delegates shouldn't count, obviously because he's ahead and this would close the gap, and perhaps put Hillary in the lead (since he wouldn't get any Michigan votes and she'd get delegates from both states).

THE ISSUE:

So I ask you, should they count? I'm asking cause most people I talk to don't follow politics too much or don't really know that much about it and don't have a real opinion.

1. Should Florida's delegates count?

2. Should Michigan's delegates count?


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I don't think either should count. Regardless of who I want to win or not, these rules were agreed upon before the race began. Both candidates agreed to it, and now that Hillary is behind she wants them because she knows she needs them to win.

Florida - I wouldn't be too upset if they counted, simply because everyone was on the ballot. But I feel if they had campaigned here, or Edwards hadn't been on the ballot, that Obama would've done better. He has done better against her in states that he has compaigned, and his momentum would've helped him.

Michigan - ABSOLUTELY NOT. This cannot be allowed. It would be a travesty IMO, as Hillary was the only major candidate on the ballot. Obama wouldn't get any delegates, while she would get more than half the states delegates. What happens to those that voted Undecided? (who were mostly voters against Hillary, for Obama or Edwards). I think there would be a huge outcry against this if it happened.

Ok, i'm done typing.

edit: ok one more thing, i actually did look up the voting percentages, but everything else i may be wrong on, lol.

[UFmetalmilitia]

There is some debate as to whether Hillary or Obama "campaigned" in Florida. Hillary was on the ground a day or two before for a fundraiser (which was allowable) but then made comments along the lines of "I'm here because I care about your votes." Obama ran a national ad, which by its very nature as a national ad, ran in Florida which Hillary claims is an example of campaigning.

The DNC has also offered to pay some of the costs of holding caucuses in both states including both candidates to settle the issue. Given Obama's success in caucuses and his overall increase in popularity since both primaries, she is resisting this option.

[MagicFan3]

Logical answer: They disobeyed the rules, so no.

My answer: Hillary beat Obama here, so no.

[Dwightmare]

They agreed that it wouldn't count a while back so no reason to go against that now.

[UCFJayBird]

There is some debate as to whether Hillary or Obama "campaigned" in Florida. Hillary was on the ground a day or two before for a fundraiser (which was allowable) but then made comments along the lines of "I'm here because I care about your votes." Obama ran a national ad, which by its very nature as a national ad, ran in Florida which Hillary claims is an example of campaigning.

The DNC has also offered to pay some of the costs of holding caucuses in both states including both candidates to settle the issue. Given Obama's success in caucuses and his overall increase in popularity since both primaries, she is resisting this option.

yea but neither active campaigned. Neither gave speeches, neither had people on the side of the road for them (that i know of) and neither went around kissing babies or anything like that. And for the most part there was no ads, i don't recall the Obama ad, but if it was national I see no harm.

I agree having caucuses could help, but personally i wouldn't mind seeing them just re-do the entire election here in Florida and up in Michigan. I realize that'd be expensive, but if it's that important why not?

I think either they don't count or they re-vote.

[The Letter J]

No.

[darthcheech2000]

no.

but I would like to have another vote or maybe a caucus.

[ivDT]

I agree having caucuses could help, but personally i wouldn't mind seeing them just re-do the entire election here in Florida and up in Michigan. I realize that'd be expensive, but if it's that important why not?

there are estimates that it would cost $4 million to do a re-vote.

george soros probably has that much stuck in his couch.

if you want to contribute some of your own money, you can go here and make a donation: http://www.revote08.com/

the site seems kinda sketchy, though.

I think either they don't count or they re-vote.

i think democrats in florida and michigan should send howard dean a bunch of very angry letters with powdery stationary (just talcum, folks).

some "revolutionary" he turned out to be.

[Gerhalt11]

It is beyond ridiculous for Florida delegates to not be seated at the Democratic National Convention.

Democrats are the ones being punished here, but hold the phone: the state legislature has a REPUBLICAN majority with a REPUBLICAN governor signing the bills they pass into law. Republicans changed the date of the primary, yet Howard Dean, chairman of the DNC, in all his insanity, decides to punish Democrats for it. He should be removed from his post as soon as possible.

[UCFJayBird]

Gerhalt11, regardless of whether they should've been revoked in the first place, do you think they should be allowed to sit AFTER the punishment had already been set and the primary was already held?

And republicans were punished as well, with half their delegates stripped (I think). But that was their parties decision.

The punishment was set, do you think it's OK for them to change the rules mid-game?

[EasternMagic]

i dont care there arent any good candidates this election its really disapointing hilary is gonna screw things up obama id all talk and gonna screw things up by eventually raising taxes and john mccain is full of crap. its a pitte huckabee or juliani had to drop im very dissapointed in our candidates right now but i do hop obama beats hilary

[UCFJayBird]

do you think the candidates are worse than 2004? I haven't been around for many elections, but that group of candidates just seemed AWFUL.

[Gerhalt11]

Gerhalt11, regardless of whether they should've been revoked in the first place, do you think they should be allowed to sit AFTER the punishment had already been set and the primary was already held?

And republicans were punished as well, with half their delegates stripped (I think). But that was their parties decision.

The punishment was set, do you think it's OK for them to change the rules mid-game?

I think it was ridiculous to not seat them in the first place, so yes, I think Howard Dean should place his tail between his legs, apologize, and seat the delegates. Florida has invariably been the most important stand in the last two elections. How does it help Democrats to ostracize Florida voters in an election year?

As for Michigan, I think it's tough to count them since Obama was not on the ballot.

Also, with regard to the argument that Floridians didn't get a good look at the candidates since they didn't campaign here: I think that's tough to say because of all the debates. I doubt many Florida voters would change their mind based on what Hillary or Obama might have said in a stump speech here. Between the speeches, debates and national coverage, pretty much everyone knows what Obama and Hillary are about, regardless of whether or not they've campaigned in their state.

[EasternMagic]

do you think the candidates are worse than 2004? I haven't been around for many elections, but that group of candidates just seemed AWFUL.

unlike the majority of people on this board im sure i like bush so yes i do

[UCFJayBird]

I think it was ridiculous to not seat them in the first place, so yes, I think Howard Dean should place his tail between his legs, apologize, and seat the delegates. Florida has invariably been the most important stand in the last two elections. How does it help Democrats to ostracize Florida voters in an election year?

As for Michigan, I think it's tough to count them since Obama was not on the ballot.

Also, with regard to the argument that Floridians didn't get a good look at the candidates since they didn't campaign here: I think that's tough to say because of all the debates. I doubt many Florida voters would change their mind based on what Hillary or Obama might have said in a stump speech here. Between the speeches, debates and national coverage, pretty much everyone knows what Obama and Hillary are about, regardless of whether or not they've campaigned in their state.

Alright so you're yes for FL, but not necessarily for Michigan? I can see that. I don't think you should ever change the rules of anything in the middle of it. It's like if someone made a 3-pointer at the buzzer at the end of the 1st quarter but it was waived off as being late, even though replays (not being allowed) show it was in time. Then in the middle of the 3rd quarter they come back and say "ok we're going to give you credit for that shot you made earlier."

[Gerhalt11]

Alright so you're yes for FL, but not necessarily for Michigan? I can see that. I don't think you should ever change the rules of anything in the middle of it. It's like if someone made a 3-pointer at the buzzer at the end of the 1st quarter but it was waived off as being late, even though replays (not being allowed) show it was in time. Then in the middle of the 3rd quarter they come back and say "ok we're going to give you credit for that shot you made earlier."

I definitely see your point, and I agree with you in principle. But when Democrats punish Democrats for something Republicans did, it drives me nuts. I'm a staunch Democrat (haha, in case you can't tell), and I believe that this country needs a Democrat in office more than ever before. So when we shoot ourselves in the foot on the way to that goal, it's extremely frustrating.

Seat the delegates in Florida based on the results, do a re-vote in Michigan. That's what I feel should happen.

Not that any of it would matter anyway. It's ultimately going to come down to the superdelegates in the end.

[ivDT]

fwiw, the guy who came up with the idea to move the primary was a democrat.

probably one of those yucky blue dog democrats that are literally like cockroaches here in the south, but a democrat nonetheless.

just sayin'...

[Gerhalt11]

fwiw, the guy who came up with the idea to move the primary was a democrat.

probably one of those yucky blue dog democrats that are literally like cockroaches here in the south, but a democrat nonetheless.

just sayin'...

Do you have a source on that? I actually tried to find the resolution/bill in the Florida legislature that changed the primary date and couldn't find it.

[UCFknight84]

they shouldnt count michigan and ohio, if they do wanna factor in michigan and florida, they would have to do a re-vote which would cost millions to do.


alot of democrats didnt even vote in florida because they knew their vote wouldnt count.

[ivDT]

-= original quote snipped =-



Do you have a source on that? I actually tried to find the resolution/bill in the Florida legislature that changed the primary date and couldn't find it.

sources? no, i'd have to google.

iirc, the house bill to move the primary was house bill 537.

and the democrat i'm speaking of is jeremy ring, a state senator from down here in south florida.