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Magic Sign Smith to Multi-Year Extension [Twardzik Too]

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Post#101 » by Cammo101 » Wed Jun 4, 2008 8:44 pm

richboy wrote:You can't give Otis the credit for drafting Dwight when he wasn't the GM. Were really talking about 4 people involved in the drafting of Dwight Howard so you really can't give any of them more credit than the other.

If your going to give anyone the credit it has to be the one that gets criticized for the bad moves during that time as well. Remember were talking not only about the drafting of Howard but the junk they received in the Tmac deal. The trading of Cuttino Mobley for Doug Christie. The drafting of Fran V. The trading of Anderson Varejao, Steven Hunter and Drew Gooden for Tony Battie.

Otis supporters will push that well Otis picked Dwight I guess as then him being more involved in this teams success now. Yet ignore all the other moves that came after that. There are 4 people that will take credit for Howard. Weisbrod who was the GM and had to make the ultimate decision at the end. Dave Twardzik who should probably get more credit than Otis because he has the biggest influence on the draft at that time. Rich Duvos who loved Dwight's commitment to God.


It is pretty widely known that Otis was one of the ones who really pushed for Dwight over Okafor.
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Post#102 » by richboy » Wed Jun 4, 2008 9:13 pm

Bzzt wrong!

Most recently - I loudly complained about Billy D and was vocal about our non moves of the expirings.

Sorry fabrication again.

Simple logic question:

Since you said "all I know is" and that one thing was wrong, does that mean that everything that you know is wrong?


Where is this loudly complaining.

This is no fabrication as you have even admitted to this. As you have always said you have felt the need to defend the organization because we are not in the knowledge of what went behind the decisions.

Just look in this thread. One person criticizes Otis for hiring Donovan first. You come to the rescue well maybe it wasn't Otis. Thats the story. You been critical of Otis yet when someone says something negative about Otis guess who comes to the rescue. Show me one time you passionately and "loudly" went at Otis
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Post#103 » by mhectorgato » Wed Jun 4, 2008 9:30 pm

richboy wrote:
Bzzt wrong!

Most recently - I loudly complained about Billy D and was vocal about our non moves of the expirings.

Sorry fabrication again.

Simple logic question:

Since you said "all I know is" and that one thing was wrong, does that mean that everything that you know is wrong?


Where is this loudly complaining.


Why would I still be complaining?

richboy wrote:This is no fabrication as you have even admitted to this. As you have always said you have felt the need to defend the organization because we are not in the knowledge of what went behind the decisions.


I've admitted that I've never complained?

I guess that simple logic test is true - all you know is wrong.

richboy wrote:Just look in this thread. One person criticizes Otis for hiring Donovan first. You come to the rescue well maybe it wasn't Otis.


Maybe is the operative word. I just never hear that theory and wanted to see if it carried any weight.

Show me in this thread where I said that was truth or anything definitive.

richboy wrote:Thats the story. You been critical of Otis yet when someone says something negative about Otis guess who comes to the rescue.


spinedoc?

:laugh:

richboy wrote:Show me one time you passionately and "loudly" went at Otis


Sorry burden of proof is on you. You've chosen to accuse me, now prove it. Prove that I supported that signing. Prove that I defended no moves at the deadline.

Unless you're willing to admit you're just throwing out baseless accusations?
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Post#104 » by spinedoc » Wed Jun 4, 2008 10:24 pm

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/c ... 068.column Here is the link, I think. I'm so computer illiterate, I hope this worked.

Edit: Yeah, it did. Thanks Martan. :wink:
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Post#105 » by richboy » Wed Jun 4, 2008 10:33 pm

LMAO? Baseless accusations. You act like I have accused you of murder. I've accused you of what you are. Trying to play both sides of the fence in this thread. I said what you said in the other thread and you didn't respeond with anything but prove that. In both cases I don't feel the need to see proof. After the dozens and dozens of discussions I'm pretty aware what your about. I've said what you have admitted too in the past. You being loud criticizing anything this organization does would be a first. More like a whisper. Who knows perhaps I was in some other country and just missed that loud legendary post.

You have been accused of being a spinner. This was not even by me. I jumped on board. That you consistently feel the need to defend the organization. You have admitted that this is the case. That hasn't changed.

If someone ask me right now what your opinion on a variety of subjects i would have no clue what to say. The only thing I know is you believe that Otis has made some questionable moves but figure there must be a reason that Otis made those decisions. Therefore since we do not know all the circumstances behind a decision you have decided to not have an opinion.

There was nothing definitive. I just find it amusing that whatever the situation you always find a scenario where Otis looks like gold. Its like you could criticize him but instead you come up with a scenario that he looks great.
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Post#106 » by maginno » Thu Jun 5, 2008 12:25 am

sChOlaRlY_Magi wrote:
Make no mistake, he may have made what seemed like some boneheaded moves, but he definitely was the reason we got DWIGHT instead of Okafor. No one can take THAT away from him.


thats the obligatory standard line that has been shot down over and over again. He was not the Gm at the time and there is nothing to indicate we were going in any other direction. that he confirmed the leanings of the real Gm will forever grant him nothing to brag about. It pretty much shows how desperate people are to find something to credit him with.

Unless he finds a way to dig his way out of the Rashard signing he will be credited with wasting the early years of Dwight. It will be inevitable.
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Post#107 » by spinedoc » Thu Jun 5, 2008 12:32 am

maginno wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



thats the obligatory standard line that has been shot down over and over again. He was not the Gm at the time and there is nothing to indicate we were going in any other direction. that he confirmed the leanings of the real Gm will forever grant him nothing to brag about. It pretty much shows how desperate people are to find something to credit him with.

Unless he finds a way to dig his way out of the Rashard signing he will be credited with wasting the early years of Dwight. It will be inevitable.


Psst, you might want to read the link I provided, my first ever btw. I'm so proud, lol. But it says that Weis was nothing more than the hatchet man, and he leaned heavily on Otis and Dave for the decision making. Weis also said that there was a lot of pressure at the time to take Okafor from the so called experts like Dick Vitale.
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Post#108 » by lovehoops01 » Thu Jun 5, 2008 12:38 am

Just a point and a question.....in an attempt to get us off one of the same merry-go-round questions that some people won't just let die year after year.

Otis' contract was going to be up June 30. So it's not like they could have waited to make a decision until you decided whether you like what he did with the draft. They would have had to replace him at the end of the season, or even if he had stayed on for the draft, they would not have had anyone to handle free agency on July 1.

And secondly, for the haters, I'm just curious who is available that you think would make such a great GM for the Magic -- would make all the right draft picks, constantly make the most efficient free-agent moves and have the Magic playing for a title every season?
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Post#109 » by sChOlaRlY_Magi » Thu Jun 5, 2008 1:04 am

maginno wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



thats the obligatory standard line that has been shot down over and over again. He was not the Gm at the time and there is nothing to indicate we were going in any other direction. that he confirmed the leanings of the real Gm will forever grant him nothing to brag about. It pretty much shows how desperate people are to find something to credit him with.

Unless he finds a way to dig his way out of the Rashard signing he will be credited with wasting the early years of Dwight. It will be inevitable.


Ugggh... If that's the case I'm definitely sorry I brought it up then. I'm still sticking to it and not because I love Otis, but fair is fair and that was HIS call (I'll give Wise credit as the title man, and final call but thats it. Besides a MORON would have taken Dwight after he touched that screw on the backboard). This I know because I read it. If you choose to think differently that's fine. I think Otis has made what seems like some stupid moves, but someone put that in perspective too (I believe in this thread).

My opinion now of Otis is washed/maybe leaning to the good because I know him and Dave are the reason we have the Dwight/Meer combo.

Love Rashard, not necessarily the price tag...

If he f's up the draft I'll DEFINITELY be leaning the other way, but for now lets see if he let all those players walk for a reason.

BTW spinedoc, good link but I KNOW there is a better article somewhere that explains it in print. I'm just not interested in running it down for the naysayers here. It will only add fuel to the fire IMO and be a colossal waste of my time. :noway:
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Post#110 » by maginno » Thu Jun 5, 2008 1:24 am

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



So your saying that you never had expectations of this team prior to the season? I never said that you shared them with us, but I at least assumed that you had certain ideas of which direction this team was headed.



I give you credit. Your dishonesty is boundless. Expectations are not predictons and you clearly meant to imply I made a prediction I had not.
You capabilities of assumptions are pretty much in line with what I have come to expect though.

A) my expectations were that we would be the third best team in the conference. Way off eh?
B) I would have made no predictions as to games won because 50 is pretty much meaningless to me one way or the other. I pegged us for bowing out once we face higher seeds . Way off eh?
C) Who can honestly claim after many debates on this subject that my concerns with Otis' bungling are in reference to one season rather than long term chances of winning a championship or legitimately contending for one? I of course suspect that there are three or four that will claim otherwise hence the honesty criteria.

I do have the capability to make rational assumptions.


Yes at times but alas this isn't one of those shining examples.
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Post#111 » by craig01 » Thu Jun 5, 2008 1:26 am

Geez, this is still going on?

Oh well, back to the Rays.......
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Post#112 » by mhectorgato » Thu Jun 5, 2008 1:32 am

richboy wrote:LMAO? Baseless accusations. You act like I have accused you of murder. I've accused you of what you are. Trying to play both sides of the fence in this thread. I said what you said in the other thread and you didn't respeond with anything but prove that. In both cases I don't feel the need to see proof. After the dozens and dozens of discussions I'm pretty aware what your about. I've said what you have admitted too in the past. You being loud criticizing anything this organization does would be a first. More like a whisper. Who knows perhaps I was in some other country and just missed that loud legendary post.

You have been accused of being a spinner. This was not even by me. I jumped on board. That you consistently feel the need to defend the organization. You have admitted that this is the case. That hasn't changed.

If someone ask me right now what your opinion on a variety of subjects i would have no clue what to say. The only thing I know is you believe that Otis has made some questionable moves but figure there must be a reason that Otis made those decisions. Therefore since we do not know all the circumstances behind a decision you have decided to not have an opinion.

There was nothing definitive. I just find it amusing that whatever the situation you always find a scenario where Otis looks like gold. Its like you could criticize him but instead you come up with a scenario that he looks great.


I asked for proof. I just get blah blah blah, ergo baseless accusation. Just because you can't remember the opinions I've given in the past doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I'm done with this and you.
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Post#113 » by KnightChris » Thu Jun 5, 2008 1:38 am

spinedoc wrote:Psst, you might want to read the link I provided, my first ever btw. I'm so proud, lol. But it says that Weis was nothing more than the hatchet man, and he leaned heavily on Otis and Dave for the decision making. Weis also said that there was a lot of pressure at the time to take Okafor from the so called experts like Dick Vitale.

Sorry, but neither that article (which most of us read when it was first published), nor the part you quoted support that assertion. I think you're reading waaaaaaay too much into the author's own thoughts and glossing over what Weisbrod actually said.

In fact, since the TITLE of the article is "John Weisbrod deserves some credit," it makes it a curious choice for you to use to support your position.

The article begins with a few paragraphs of "where are they now?" about Weis. Then the author gives him credit for some moves, saying, "Two key moves -- the drafting of Dwight Howard and the signing of Hedo Turkoglu -- were made under his watch and helped make the Magic what they are today." No mention of Otis yet. Some stuff about T-Mac, blah blah.

Next some stuff about what a difficult choice Howard vs. Okafor was at the time. Here's the Vitale mention you alluded to:
"And don't kid yourself: Those acquisitions weren't no-brainers. Many of the experts -- ESPN's Stephen A. Smith and Dick Vitale to name a couple -- said the Magic blew it when they used the No. 1 pick of the 2004 draft on Howard instead of Emeka Okafor. 'In 10 years, man, they [Magic] are going to regret not taking Mr. Okafor,' Vitale yammered then"

This is all looking good for Weis, still no mention of Otis. I already knew that taking Dwight was a good decision, so this isn't really adding anything to the discussion.

Then this quote:
"In the rear-view mirror based on how Dwight's career has progressed, everybody tends to think it was an obvious choice to draft him," Weisbrod says now. "But I recall it differently. I recall getting three garbage bags filled with hate mail for drafting Dwight over Okafor."


Still not seeing anything about Otis, just about Weis sticking to his guns and ultimately making the right call in the face of pressure. Next they talk about Hedo's signing. Not really relevant to this Dwight draft debate, but for the record, no mention of Otis and it's overwhelmingly pro-Weis again.

Here's the part you quoted:
It's clear Weisbrod feels vindicated at what has transpired since his departure, although he is quick to point out he shouldn't get all the credit for the great moves, just as he shouldn't get all the blame for the bad ones. He readily admits he was out of his element as a basketball GM and leaned heavily on his assistant GMs -- Otis Smith and Dave Twardzik -- when making personnel decisions.

Curious there are no quotes from Weis, and no specific mentions of things Otis said or did, especially not a direct tie between this claim and the Dwight drafting. As such, any connection between the two (especially sans quotes) is tenuous at best. Sounds like Weis is just sharing the credit like good bosses do.

Ok, that completes page 1 of the article, and that was the ONLY mention of Otis. Moving on to page 2...

Page 2 begins with the hatchet man discussion, which I think has more relevence in a discussion of the T-Mac trade than it does in a discussion of Dwight's drafting. The article then goes on to discuss Weisbrod's personal life at some length, and finally talks about what he's doing now with some final reflections on his time in Orlando.

Pretty standard bio article. Oh yeah, page 2 also doesn't mention Otis a single time. Long story short, using this article to give Otis credit is... questionable at best.

-Chris
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Post#114 » by maginno » Thu Jun 5, 2008 1:39 am

spinedoc wrote:
Psst, you might want to read the link I provided, my first ever btw. I'm so proud, lol. But it says that Weis was nothing more than the hatchet man, and he leaned heavily on Otis and Dave for the decision making.


LOL! why don't you read it . The term hatchet man indicates that he was there to do the dirty work that the Devos family WANTED to get done but with someone else to blame. In reference to Dwight (if it were even used in that context) it would mean that the Devos family wanted Dwight. The article doesn't go even close to saying that Dwight was Otis's pick. If anything it underlines and confirms the collaborative nature of the decision being a team one and therefore entirely negates the idea that you can just credit it to Otis by himself.
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Post#115 » by maginno » Thu Jun 5, 2008 1:51 am

KnightChris wrote:In fact, since the TITLE of the article is "John Weisbrod deserves some credit," it makes it a curious choice for you to use to support your position.


Bang on the money Chris. I would have been surprised too except I've seen all kinds of logic bending and crazy things before in earlier discussions on this subject.
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Post#116 » by spinedoc » Thu Jun 5, 2008 2:15 am

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Actually there is evidence that he did. When Devos brought in his hockey buddy, it was to deflect attention to do the dirty work and get rid of Tmac. Even Weisbrod has acknowledged this and said that it was Otis that was his main adviser. That means Otis does have his fingerprints on getting Dwight, rather than Okafor, acquiring another first rounder to get a slipping Jameer, and getting Hedo for the mle.


This was my first post on the matter and my characterization of it. I didn't ever say that it was all Otis, but I do believe that Devos knows better and thus why he got the contract extension. I referenced the article because Weis had admitted here that he was out of his element as a basketball gm and leaned heavily on Otis and Dave. Then it says later that he was just brought in by Devos to be the whipping boy for the Tmac trade backlash. I believe what I said from memory matches the article fairly well. Chris and Mags, you can believe whatever you want. I don't really care actually, but it sounds like you two are doing the spinning here, not me.
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Post#117 » by Bensational » Thu Jun 5, 2008 4:00 am

can someone please tell me they've read A Confederacy of Dunces?


now, if you have, you'll see Maginno's posts in a whole new light.
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Post#118 » by Rccanes2311 » Thu Jun 5, 2008 5:23 am

spinedoc wrote:http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-fix-bianchi030908,0,1043068.column Here is the link, I think. I'm so computer illiterate, I hope this worked.

Edit: Yeah, it did. Thanks Martan. :wink:


Finally someone posted a link THANK YOU THATS ALL I WANTED.
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Post#119 » by Rccanes2311 » Thu Jun 5, 2008 5:26 am

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



This was my first post on the matter and my characterization of it. I didn't ever say that it was all Otis, but I do believe that Devos knows better and thus why he got the contract extension. I referenced the article because Weis had admitted here that he was out of his element as a basketball gm and leaned heavily on Otis and Dave. Then it says later that he was just brought in by Devos to be the whipping boy for the Tmac trade backlash. I believe what I said from memory matches the article fairly well. Chris and Mags, you can believe whatever you want. I don't really care actually, but it sounds like you two are doing the spinning here, not me.


I personally don't think Devos knows crap about the NBA today. He's a business man thats all. The guy calling he shots is Bob and I also don't think Bob knows much about the NBA either or else we would've been contending a while ago.
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Post#120 » by maginno » Thu Jun 5, 2008 10:17 am

Bensational wrote:can someone please tell me they've read A Confederacy of Dunces?


now, if you have, you'll see Maginno's posts in a whole new light.


Silly and empty as usual.

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