Magic Sign Smith to Multi-Year Extension [Twardzik Too]

[maginno]

Good points KnightChris. The angle you took on the Lewis signing is pretty eyeopening when you think of it in those terms. If he was to be signed, than given the nature of Dwights and Nelsons contracts the price tag did not matter.

Pure rubbish. I'll give Chris the credit of not having been involved in these debates before but can't cut you the same slack. No one makes any bogus argument based on cap space and that argument has been DESTROYED several times.

The price tag always matters because - and perhaps your side can actually extend themselves to get it this time - free agency is not the only way to get a player. Overpaying for a player has to do with the ability to use your assets to improve. I even coined a phrase for this that people have asked me about in previous discussions on this subject - trade space. If your assets are overpriced then no one wants them. Say after me - teams do improve by being able to trade without any reference to free agency and cap space. Do you get it now?

So what if we are over the cap? thats not the point. The point is do we have the assets to make moves that can improve the team with the assets we already have? Shard's contract is an albatross not because it puts us over the cap but because he isn't worth the price tag and teams are unlikely to want the contract no matter what opportunity they are offering.

Wade, gilbert, Gasol,Lebron . Forget it even if there is a fire sale. You basically have to wait for some dumb GM to take Rashard at that price. As other teams improve and you need to make matchup moves you can't because you are stuck with what you got. Your opposing Gms can run circles around you because they can look at your weaknesses and build to exploit them when you are flat footed by Shard's contract and can't make the moves to adjust. Cap space argument will only come into play in later years as his increasing contract eats more and longer than it ever had to.

Now at this point someone usually steps up and in perfect homerism claims that we don't need to be able to trade Rashard. Yeah uh-huh. Franchise player right? Please. You can see just how we are going to win a championship with him since he clearly delivered and got us into the ECF when billups was injured.

[Bensational]

Silly and empty as usual.

lol.... have you read it?

[richboy]

-= original quote snipped =-



I asked for proof. I just get blah blah blah, ergo baseless accusation. Just because you can't remember the opinions I've given in the past doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I'm done with this and you.

Yes whatever. If you think you have these loud opinions on file then I think you should go look for them. Like I said I really like to read them. Don't look in this thread however. Everyone is participating in this thread and giving there opinions on the Otis extension. Everyone but Mhec. Where is the opinion? There is none. A lot of time going at other opinions but not anytime actually posting his own. Where going on page 12? When can we expect that why Otis deserved an extension post. Perhaps you will surprise me and say he didn't deserve an extension. Forget it. Your not involved in this thread anymore I hear. Just chalk it up as another thread where Mhec types a lot but doesn't say anything. Then when I call him out on it say its baseless.

[spinedoc]

can someone please tell me they've read A Confederacy of Dunces?


now, if you have, you'll see Maginno's posts in a whole new light.

Ignatius Reilly perhaps?, lol.

[eyriq]

maginno

Now at this point someone usually steps up and in perfect homerism claims that we don't need to be able to trade Rashard. Yeah uh-huh. Franchise player right? Please. You can see just how we are going to win a championship with him since he clearly delivered and got us into the ECF when billups was injured.

Your entire point rests on your final statement, that the Magic will need to move Lewis's contract to improve. This is in my opinion the fatal flaw in your logic, and if not that than at least the crossroads where we part as Magic fans. You see, I see the Shard signing as both necessary and a boon to our championship aspirations. Whether or not his contract is justified actually does not play into the fact that he is a vital piece to our building a championship team. We had an asset (cap space) and we capitalized on it. There are lots of peripheral arguments that can be made and have been made about what his signing meant to this franchise in terms of proving that Devos wanted to win and by doing so getting us a new stadium and extending Dwight. How much he played into those two advancements I don't know, but it is something in his favor.

Now, just to tackle this issue philosophically, as you approached it yourself, lets look at the fundamentals of improving a team. You mention trade space, and by that I assume you mean the amount of movable contracts available for a teams use in trades. The more underpaid the player the more trade space his contract would have? With that in mind you criticize the Lewis signing as being done in a way that minimizes his contract trade space because he is overpaid? Ok, that is interesting and you always want to get the better end of the deal and thus exploit your worker, but market value plays a huge hand in that. Also, I don't think that Shard is that terribly overpaid to begin with. And one final note on your concept of trade space, I think the only trade space that really is put to use in today's NBA is either a team looking to hit a home run now (see Mavs, Lakers, Suns, Knicks, Celtics) or teams looking to rebuild (see Heat, Grizz, Wolves, Nets, Sonics). I don't think the Magic are in a position to need to do either.

At this point the stage is set with the key players reporting, and we now need to fill in the holes. Even outside of Lewis we still have trade space, so we can bring in another starting quality player that way. We have the MLE and the LLE and the BAE to use in free agency, and we have the draft. All these assets are assets that most teams that contend have as well, so we are not at any disadvantage because of Lewis. You really need to reevaluate your methods of breaking down this team because you antics a tired and are failing. It has only been one year with Lewis on this team and by all accounts it was a smashing success. It will only get better.

[maginno]

-= original quote snipped =-



Ignatius Reilly perhaps?, lol.

You must thank God for Wikipedia everyday eh Spinedoc?

Since you guy's want to discuss literature I have a whole reading list we could work through. I think Purtill would be particularly appropriate. Just to start with that is.

[maginno]

eyrig your entire last post just confirms what I predicted. that the only answer anyone has to the argument I make is that Shard is a fixture/ franchise player to win a championship with and would never need to be traded. PURE nonsense that is believed only among a select subset of Magic fans and clearly demonstrated to be false by our exit from a contest that had a team without its best player in Billups. Pretty pathetic franchise player.

The other oft repeated and shot down argument is that market value dictated Shard's contract. It never did. Otis was not looking at a single market price set on Shard by any other team because no other team ever offered Shard anywhere near a max contract and Otis agreed to sell the farm on the official day one of free agency. Case closed.

Trade space is not applicable only to home run situations. Its the juice by which all trades are made.

What? You think if you guys keep bringing up the same tried and defeated arguments you'll eventually make good points?

[eyriq]

eyrig your entire last post just confirms what I predicted. that the only answer anyone has to the argument I make is that Shard is a fixture/ franchise player to win a championship with and would never need to be traded. PURE nonsense that is believed only among a select subset of Magic fans and clearly demonstrated to be false by our exit from a contest that had a team without its best player in Billups. Pretty pathetic franchise player.

The other oft repeated and shot down argument is that market value dictated Shard's contract. It never did. Otis was not looking at a single market price set on Shard by any other team because no other team ever offered Shard anywhere near a max contract and Otis agreed to sell the farm on the official day one of free agency. Case closed.

Trade space is not applicable only to home run situations. Its the juice by which all trades are made.

What? You think if you guys keep bringing up the same tried and defeated arguments you'll eventually make good points?

Umm, don't you do the same thing? Anyway, if Lewis was signed so that he could be later traded than you'd have something...and Otis would be an idiot. Otis is not, and you have nothing.

And getting bumped by the Pistons was painful yet predictable. There was enough fault to spread around. It is not rationale to pronounce the entire Dwight/Shard duo a failure based on their 2cd round exit. Especially when there are so many other accomplishments to admire. If you want to lay the exit at Shards feet than you also need to give him credit for winning the division, winning 52 games, and getting out of the 1st round for the 1st time an ages. I don't think either approach is fair. More so I see the holes the team had and I see the assets we have to fill them, and I think that it will be more than enough.

[maginno]

if Lewis was signed so that he could be later traded than you'd have something...and Otis would be an idiot. Otis is not, and you have nothing.

Good night boy watch the NBA for some more years. Players get traded every year. Its part of the game. Trading a player to get better actually enhances getting the player in the first place.

If you want to lay the exit at Shards feet than you also need to give him credit for winning the division, winning 52 games, and getting out of the 1st round for the 1st time an ages.

Rashard's a good player if you get him for the right price. he didn't single handedly do any of those things. I don't have to bend to your logic because I am not the one claiming that he is a franchise player and would never need to be traded. Thats all you so you therefore have the higher burden of proof to show that he is what you claim him to be. the exit to Detroit without Billups defies your ideas. If he's such a superstar player then along with Dwight and Hedo they should have been able to take a severely injured team. The fact that he had mediocre and bad games down the stretch is indicative of the fact that he is no franchise player and wouldn't be considered untouchable by any rational Gm if his contract wasn't such a large liability. case still closed.

[TheRevTy]

Man, I hate when you guys get into these long winded debates. If I wanted to read paragraphs if jabs back an forth, I'd log onto CNN.com or something of that nature.

But hey, it's your thing, go ahead and have fun.

[eyriq]

Maginno, let me get this straight. You now think that to support the Lewis signing we have to provide proof that he's a franchise player? And he has to be a franchise player in order for us to say he shouldn't be traded? Sheesh, that's real reasonable. How about you prove that the Magic will be sabotaged in the future because of his contract. I've presented a very reasonable road map for building a team around Dwight and Lewis, and year one of that duo was a success by all estimates. That is the point that you can't get around. So yeah, your right, this case is closed. You just like beating a dead horse and making asinine assertions of burden of proof. Color me unimpressed.

[Rccanes2311]

Maginno, let me get this straight. You now think that to support the Lewis signing we have to provide proof that he's a franchise player? And he has to be a franchise player in order for us to say he shouldn't be traded? Sheesh, that's real reasonable. How about you prove that the Magic will be sabotaged in the future because of his contract. I've presented a very reasonable road map for building a team around Dwight and Lewis, and year one of that duo was a success by all estimates. That is the point that you can't get around. So yeah, your right, this case is closed. You just like beating a dead horse and making asinine assertions of burden of proof. Color me unimpressed.

The only way to justify the contract is to have some kind of evidence that he is a franchise player. Every player with his contract has at some point in their career put up better numbers than him and looked like they could carry a franchise. The problem with your blueprint and I think it's a good one don't' get me wrong. I just don't trust Smith to use those things the right way and get the job done. Especially in the draft considering we still have that scout who really needs to be fired.

Another thing, and I know it's been said before you just have to listen to it. Shard is making the same kinda money as guys like Amare, Kobe, KG, Duncan, Tmac, Shaq, Bosh, Melo, Davis, Wade, Iverson, Kidd, and someday James and Howard and he's no where close to even as being as good as those guys. He's not even the second best player on this team and he's peaked he's not going to get any better than he is now the man is about 30 years old. You don't give those kinda contracts to just about anyone and you can't let some agent intimidate you into doing so.

Now if we had that cap that seems to never run out of space like The Knicks I wouldn't care but we don't so you just have to be careful with your money or u begin to lose resources that you will need to improve a team that has flaws to the point that they want to claim their contenders yet they cant beat a contender when that teams best player gets hurt which is just sad.

[spinedoc]

-= original quote snipped =-



You must thank God for Wikipedia everyday eh Spinedoc? :rofl:

Since you guy's want to discuss literature I have a whole reading list we could work through. I think Purtill would be particularly appropriate. Just to start with that is.

Hold on a minute, I need to go look up this God character your referring to on Wikipedia.

[maginno]

Maginno, let me get this straight. You now think that to support the Lewis signing we have to provide proof that he's a franchise player? And he has to be a franchise player in order for us to say he shouldn't be traded?

To say that you will never want to trade a player during the course of his contract then yes the burden of proof is on you to show why he is that great a player. You can easily say that of Dwight. you cannot say that of Rashard. It needs no further explanation. even a child an see that.

Sheesh, that's real reasonable. How about you prove that the Magic will be sabotaged in the future because of his contract.

You are clueless. Its common sense that if you sign a guy to the max and he is not a max/franchise player you have hampered the teams abilty to use their trade space. You might as well argue that there are no stars shining in a cloudless night.

I've presented a very reasonable road map for building a team

You've presented squat. You merely make excuses for why we bowed out against a team that didn't even have its best player. You haven't shown where we are going to get another go to scorer since teams now know and have used the fact that our coach has confidence only in Hedo down the stretch when we need a score. You haven't show where a starting caliber PF is going to come from besides the aging broken down for a year Battie.

Shown or presented? You've shown your arguments to be a joke. Thats about it. Boston is ahead, Detroit has lots of tradeable assets to retool. Miami has one good one great player along with a top notch PF and a second overall pick plus lots of cap space next year to improve. Good night even Toronto should get back a key player in moving one of their point guards. Over the next two to three years teams with the ability to add players will reshape the EC while you and your Gm are sitting on your hands talking about how great it is to take baby steps to nowhere but second round exits and that after nearly two decades of franchise existence.

You guys keep trumping that its the best the team has done in ten years. It only underlines how mediocre and frankly pathetic an organization that once had back to back first picks has been. Some other fans see greatness in Dwight and don't want to see it wasted by foolish moves.

Success is not defined by past failures. Its defined by itself. this team has shown that it can win 50 + games in regular season but isn't good enough to win against a Detroit team without its key player. In order to compete for a championship it has to leap frog over Boston, Detroit in the east and a slew of teams in the west better than them by a mile. its a veritable certainty that a lebron team will emerge over the next 24-36 months either at cleveland or away that will give him more than the supporting cast he has now. So better hurry up those baby steps or you ain't going to see anything but a division title banner hanging in the Arena while Shard's contract burdens us down.

Those be the facts son.

[eyriq]

Very well said Rccanes2311. He is either still in his prime or will be declining soon enough. There is a slight chance that he will improve upon his best seasons, but not likely. What I do expect is to see him get his play back to his Seattle days, and keep it there for two more years. That would mean more efficiency on his part, but how much of that is influenced by his role in our system? I think a lot is which is another reason I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The main beef I have with the doom sayers is that they presume to pronounce the Howard/Lewis era dead on arrival even in the face of outstanding improvement. You can't do that and then expect others to defer to your opinion as being superior. I just don't see how the Lewis signing is such a detriment to this team, and the only way for the doom sayers to demonstrate this point is to make predictions about the future. How is that such a dominate argument that every time maginno makes it he feels justified in making statements like "good night boy" and "case still closed? Pretty funny really, which is why I enjoy the exchanges and have no personal animosity towards any of them.

I think the best approach in presenting the negative side to the Lewis signing would be in demonstrating other moves that would have been better and showing in an objective manner how they would be so. Good luck with that though.

Otis made a signing that needed to be made, and by giving as much as he did he exposed himself to criticism. That takes balls or stupidity, and I really don't think he is stupid. It is working so far, regardless of whatever absurd benchmarks maginno would like to impose on the Magic after the fact (like getting to the ECF), or before the fact for that matter (in case he's always had that stipulation).

[eyriq]

You've presented squat. You merely make excuses for why we bowed out against a team that didn't even have its best player. You haven't shown where we are going to get another go to scorer since teams now know and have used the fact that our coach has confidence only in Hedo down the stretch when we need a score. You haven't show where a starting caliber PF is going to come from besides the aging broken down for a year Battie.

First off that is just bs and you're being purposefully ignorant. Lewis is the best offensive player we have on the team, or at least equal to Hedo after his outstanding year. I've said this time and again, Offense is not Lewis's problem, he's one of the best. Capeesh?

As for the rest, you use the MLE, LLE, BAE and the draft. What don't you get about that? We have four guys that are studs, surround them with some quality players and enjoy the ride. As for other teams improving, good for them. Howard will be more than they can handle, he just needs to get a little more efficient on the offensive end.

Now really, you're arguments are getting pathetic, calm down and breath.

[maginno]

I've said this time and again, Offense is not Lewis's problem, he's one of the best. Capeesh?

Lewis problem is being the go to guy. Thats why Hedo is that guy. Anyone whose watched the playoffs could see that . Pathetic to argue against reality but hey thats what you do.

As for the rest, you use the MLE, LLE, BAE and the draft. What don't you get about that? We have four guys that are studs, surround them with some quality players and enjoy the ride.

Quality players with the LLE? You mean Cook types right? Coming soon to a dynasty near you. You're funny dude. 20+ pick in the draft and the LLe are going to fill us with quality players. You'll be lucky to get even a slightly above average player with the MLE.

So let me see now the fourth "Stud" of this dream team is who now? Jameer?

but hey thanks for confirming that you have to be in Lala land to make the arguments you do. Preciate it.

[Bensational]

Ignatius Reilly perhaps?, lol.

haha. yep. i'm so glad someone else can share that with me. totally changes the way you read his posts and how seriously you take him.

[Bensational]

You must thank God for Wikipedia everyday eh Spinedoc?

Since you guy's want to discuss literature I have a whole reading list we could work through. I think Purtill would be particularly appropriate. Just to start with that is.

wouldn't Boethius be more appropriate? lol

haha, seriously dude, it's not about the fact that it's literature, it could be a Ben Elton book for all i care, it's just that they way you write reminds me so much of the character Ignatius Reilly that it makes me laugh.

[maginno]

haha, seriously dude, it's not about the fact that it's literature, it could be a Ben Elton book for all i care, it's just that they way you write reminds me so much of the character Ignatius Reilly that it makes me laugh.

Well He's a sufficiently educated character in a stylishly written book so I can see it. the book was good but your childish retort to compare someone to a fictional character unfortunately doesn't share any of its brilliance but nevertheless as I said consistent with an emptiness you often employ.

in the fictional world of Ignatius it might not have held true but the quote -

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift

is true enough to have been quoted by many. I'd supplement it by stating that it does't even require genius. Dunces just don't like being disagreed with.