Welcome Montrezl Harrell

[spikeslovechild]

Harrell is a nice get. The athletic did an interesting break down showing his positive impact despite his defensive limitations.

On/Off Differential
2017-18 (LAC) 1.3 2.2
2018-19 (LAC) 2 2.9
2019-20 (LAC) 7.2 0.6
2020-21 (LAL) 1.4 -2.8
2021-22 (WAS) 1.6 8.7
2021-22 (CHA) 6 1.8

The on-off numbers might not make up the whole picture. But for a franchise that has failed to follow the “Just don’t get killed when Joel sits!” manifesto, past success in this category is certainly a positive for a prospective backup center.

I don't see the positives? outside of last year on a team with no good centers and that Clippers year, every other one is a negative differential

Huh? Every year was positive except the LAL year.

And he still had a positive on/off. He struggled for playing time because Vogel wanted to play Gasol. I do see BR has slightly different numbers not sure which source the athletic used.

In any case last year he was +6 differential. He had .213 WS/48. 23.2 PER. What I like about him beyond the efficiency numbers which the athletic highlighted is you can give him the ball and he won't turn it over. He averaged 2 TO per 100 possessions. He's averaged 2.5 TO per 100 for his career.

You can sort of use him off the bench when you need some instant offense and not really worry about him committing a ton of sloppy turnovers.

[Murray_17]

Huh? Every year was positive except the LAL year.

And he still had a positive on/off. He struggled for playing time because Vogel wanted to play Gasol. I do see BR has slightly different numbers not sure which source the athletic used.

In any case last year he was +6 differential. He had .213 WS/48. 23.2 PER. What I like about him beyond the efficiency numbers which the athletic highlighted is you can give him the ball and he won't turn it over. He averaged 2 TO per 100 possessions. He's averaged 2.5 TO per 100 for his career.

You can sort of use him off the bench when you need some instant offense and not really worry about him committing a ton of sloppy turnovers.

No, to get the differential you rest the on with the off. Having a positive on is irrelevant if your team is better with you off the field.

Your table is showing that teams are better with Harrell off than on except for last year and one year with the Clippers

Having a negative differential is understandable if you're playing behind a star or an important piece, it's not the case and never has been with Harrell.

[spikeslovechild]

Huh? Every year was positive except the LAL year.

And he still had a positive on/off. He struggled for playing time because Vogel wanted to play Gasol. I do see BR has slightly different numbers not sure which source the athletic used.

In any case last year he was +6 differential. He had .213 WS/48. 23.2 PER. What I like about him beyond the efficiency numbers which the athletic highlighted is you can give him the ball and he won't turn it over. He averaged 2 TO per 100 possessions. He's averaged 2.5 TO per 100 for his career.

You can sort of use him off the bench when you need some instant offense and not really worry about him committing a ton of sloppy turnovers.

No, to get the differential you rest the on with the off. Having a positive on is irrelevant if your team is better with you off the field.

Your table is showing that teams are better with Harrell off than on except for last year and one year with the Clippers

Having a negative differential is understandable if you're playing behind a star or an important piece, it's not the case and never has been with Harrell.

?

I was talking about having a positive differential since every year was positive in the chart except one. Differential in my understanding is how the player played on the court vs how the team played with him off it.

The fact that is positive is a good thing. The fact his raw on/off numbers are also positive is a good thing. His advanced stats are also very good. I get that he is limited defensively but every metric says he is still a huge positive while on the court.

[Murray_17]

?

I was talking about having a positive differential since every year was positive in the chart except one. Differential in my understanding is how the player played on the court vs how the team played with him off it.

The fact that is positive is a good thing. The fact his raw on/off numbers are also positive is a good thing. His advanced stats are also very good. I get that he is limited defensively but every metric says he is still a huge positive while on the court.

Yeah, and in your table for example, the clippers were +1.3 with Harrell and +2.2 without him in 2017-18, which means the Clippers were +0.9 better without him that year or, if you want, that his differential is -0.9.

[76ciology]

Who would you surround Harrell with and what defensive scheme would you make to put a very good 5 man unit on the floor?

Harden
Thybulle
House
Tucker
Harrell

I’d then run a defensive scheme where Tucker defends roll guy, with Harrell on the stretch big, then we’d have Thybulle, House and Tucker providing help defense.

I also have my doubts. But why can’t Embiid play with Harrell? Because he’s a negative floor spacer? Don’t Embiid settle for a lot of mid range nowadays? And whats the difference with that and playing with Ben Simmons or Thybulle?

BTW, this is a great set and an easy lay-up.

Watch on YouTube

[76ciology]

The most played 2 man unit for the Clips in the 2019-2020 season was Lou Will and Harrell. Those two carried the Clips in reg season just so Kawhi can have his load management.

[M2J]

Who would you surround Harrell with and what defensive scheme would you make to put a very good 5 man unit on the floor?

Harden
Thybulle
House
Tucker
Harrell

I’d then run a defensive scheme where Tucker defends roll guy, with Harrell on the stretch big, then we’d have Thybulle, House and Tucker providing help defense.

I also have my doubts. But why can’t Embiid play with Harrell? Because he’s a negative floor spacer? Don’t Embiid settle for a lot of mid range nowadays? And whats the difference with that and playing with Ben Simmons or Thybulle?

BTW, this is a great set and an easy lay-up.

Watch on YouTube

Your lineup works defensively, but ideally and realistically based on last season. Melton over Thybulle and Harris over House

You have two secondary playmakers, floor spacing, and they can defend. Potent offensively and could be good defensively. I think that's the best backup lineup.

With that said I really have no idea what to expect. Thybulle could either start or barely play. Same for House.

[76ciology]

Among key rotational players. Best 2 man duo was Harden and Thybulle.

Harden Tobias + 11NetRtg
Harden Maxey +12NetRtg
Harden Embiid +15NetRtg
Harden Thybulle +18NetRtg

Read on Twitter

[HardenGoat]

I think if Thybulle gets his 3 pt percentage up just to league average he’s going to significantly boost his trade value. The question would be how much confidence would we have in him as a playoff piece. Morey is going to get one more trade done is my guess after we see how teams shake out and Wenbayama grows a couple more inches.

[mjkvol]

I think if Thybulle gets his 3 pt percentage up just to league average he’s going to significantly boost his trade value. The question would be how much confidence would we have in him as a playoff piece. Morey is going to get one more trade done is my guess after we see how teams shake out and Wenbayama grows a couple more inches.

To me, that is the key, him improving enough offensively to be moved for a better fitting piece. I want Thybulle gone not primarily because he doesn't shoot 3's consistently enough, although that's one reason, but because I don't believe he's the great defensive stopper he's hyped to be, and offensively he's not versatile enough to justify his place in the rotation after this off season.

And the fact that he's due to be paid is the clincher . I'd rather get some value than lose him for nothing next summer, or worse yet throw money at him. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see him ever becoming a consistent contributor.

[deep6er]

I think if Thybulle gets his 3 pt percentage up just to league average he’s going to significantly boost his trade value. The question would be how much confidence would we have in him as a playoff piece. Morey is going to get one more trade done is my guess after we see how teams shake out and Wenbayama grows a couple more inches.

If Thybulle shot the league avg from 3, he's your starting small forward.

While we're on the topic, if Ben Simmons shot the league avg from 3, he'd be unstoppable, we should really look into trading for that guy

[Kolkmania]

I don't like the move. I understand the concern from Rivers (I assume) of having two inexperienced backup centers, but from a roster standpoint it is short sighted.

Harrell is a great offensive player, but also unplayable in the PO. In the end that is all what matters for us. Playing Harrel for 80% of the backup minutes, means that Reed, Bassey and Tucker will barely play center this year (if Embiid stays healthy). But those three options are the only viable ones in the PO, so why not use the regular season to create chemistry and let them develop.
In addition, this moves forces us to cut one of Bassey, Reed, Joe or Springer (in addition to Queen).

So a floor-raising move for the regular season while limiting our ceiling in the PO and future. Not a fan.

[elchengue20]

I don't like the move. I understand the concern from Rivers (I assume) of having two inexperienced backup centers, but from a roster standpoint it is short sighted.

Harrell is a great offensive player, but also unplayable in the PO. In the end that is all what matters for us. Playing Harrel for 80% of the backup minutes, means that Reed, Bassey and Tucker will barely play center this year (if Embiid stays healthy). But those three options are the only viable ones in the PO, so why not use the regular season to create chemistry and let them develop.
In addition, this moves forces us to cut one of Bassey, Reed, Joe or Springer (in addition to Queen).

So a floor-raising move for the regular season while limiting our ceiling in the PO and future. Not a fan.

Fair point, a valid one.

I think this is a good move if it allows us to manage Embiid minutes/games and keep him fresh for the PO, without sacrificing many wins in the regular season, allowing us to have a top 3 record in the East.

[Negrodamus]

I don't like the move. I understand the concern from Rivers (I assume) of having two inexperienced backup centers, but from a roster standpoint it is short sighted.

Harrell is a great offensive player, but also unplayable in the PO. In the end that is all what matters for us. Playing Harrel for 80% of the backup minutes, means that Reed, Bassey and Tucker will barely play center this year (if Embiid stays healthy). But those three options are the only viable ones in the PO, so why not use the regular season to create chemistry and let them develop.
In addition, this moves forces us to cut one of Bassey, Reed, Joe or Springer (in addition to Queen).

So a floor-raising move for the regular season while limiting our ceiling in the PO and future. Not a fan.

I mean, Bassey has to go, right? He hasn't really improved and looked pedestrian in SL.

I know that is sacrilege on this board, but this is the best chance at a championship and Bassey isn't going to be a regular contributor on a championship team. Harrell could be and I don't even really care for him that much.

[ankle420breaker]

I don't like the move. I understand the concern from Rivers (I assume) of having two inexperienced backup centers, but from a roster standpoint it is short sighted.

Harrell is a great offensive player, but also unplayable in the PO. In the end that is all what matters for us. Playing Harrel for 80% of the backup minutes, means that Reed, Bassey and Tucker will barely play center this year (if Embiid stays healthy). But those three options are the only viable ones in the PO, so why not use the regular season to create chemistry and let them develop.
In addition, this moves forces us to cut one of Bassey, Reed, Joe or Springer (in addition to Queen).

So a floor-raising move for the regular season while limiting our ceiling in the PO and future. Not a fan.

I mean, Bassey has to go, right? He hasn't really improved and looked pedestrian in SL.

I know that is sacrilege on this board, but this is the best chance at a championship and Bassey isn't going to be a regular contributor on a championship team. Harrell could be and I don't even really care for him that much.

It should be Bassey unless Morey has a late trade up his sleeve.

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[spikeslovechild]

I think if Thybulle gets his 3 pt percentage up just to league average he’s going to significantly boost his trade value. The question would be how much confidence would we have in him as a playoff piece. Morey is going to get one more trade done is my guess after we see how teams shake out and Wenbayama grows a couple more inches.

IF thybulle gets to that point he'd be someone you'd look to resign.

I too had that hope initially but I've sort of accepted what he is. If we can trade him for a good starter I'd do it. However, since he is a upcoming RFA I doubt he has much value RFA's who are not max guys don't get traded for much.

He probably has more value on the roster then he does in a trade but I'll continue to hope against hope someone offers something good for him

[SixthStreet]

Harrell is fine, my trepidation is the over reliance of him by the coach. It's a good get to grab him for the minimum.

[76ciology]

I don't like the move. I understand the concern from Rivers (I assume) of having two inexperienced backup centers, but from a roster standpoint it is short sighted.

Harrell is a great offensive player, but also unplayable in the PO. In the end that is all what matters for us. Playing Harrel for 80% of the backup minutes, means that Reed, Bassey and Tucker will barely play center this year (if Embiid stays healthy). But those three options are the only viable ones in the PO, so why not use the regular season to create chemistry and let them develop.
In addition, this moves forces us to cut one of Bassey, Reed, Joe or Springer (in addition to Queen).

So a floor-raising move for the regular season while limiting our ceiling in the PO and future. Not a fan.

I mean, Bassey has to go, right? He hasn't really improved and looked pedestrian in SL.

I know that is sacrilege on this board, but this is the best chance at a championship and Bassey isn't going to be a regular contributor on a championship team. Harrell could be and I don't even really care for him that much.

Yes. And even if he becomes better. It’s easy to replace him by getting another Harrell, D12 or Drummond type signing next offseason.

[Kolkmania]

I don't like the move. I understand the concern from Rivers (I assume) of having two inexperienced backup centers, but from a roster standpoint it is short sighted.

Harrell is a great offensive player, but also unplayable in the PO. In the end that is all what matters for us. Playing Harrel for 80% of the backup minutes, means that Reed, Bassey and Tucker will barely play center this year (if Embiid stays healthy). But those three options are the only viable ones in the PO, so why not use the regular season to create chemistry and let them develop.
In addition, this moves forces us to cut one of Bassey, Reed, Joe or Springer (in addition to Queen).

So a floor-raising move for the regular season while limiting our ceiling in the PO and future. Not a fan.

I mean, Bassey has to go, right? He hasn't really improved and looked pedestrian in SL.

I know that is sacrilege on this board, but this is the best chance at a championship and Bassey isn't going to be a regular contributor on a championship team. Harrell could be and I don't even really care for him that much.

I am not judging defense-first centers in the SL. I think he showed tremendous upside with the 87ers (that's what they're called now, right?) and he was actually surprisingly effect against Jokic. Also it helps in certain matchups to have someone with size. If we cut Bassey, our biggest guy after Embiid will be 6'9''?

In the end it probably doesn't matter that much, we're talking about the back-end of the roster.

[Zumramania]

Harrell is fine, my trepidation is the over reliance of him by the coach. It's a good get to grab him for the minimum.

Doc will make mistakes in any case, I don't think he will bring us playoff success. We may get the second or even the first seed in the regular season, but in the playoffs I don't think we'll make it past the ECF. Sorry, but I don't trust Doc at all.